Is the manosphere finally collapsing? — The Assignment

[0:01] i'm audi cornish and this is the assignment and today we're talking about men so i'm going to [0:08] show you some we're talking about the manosphere are you even in the manosphere not really i guess [0:16] so everybody in the manosphere is just there are people online who are trying to make a buck you [0:22] know selling ideologies louis thoreau's recent netflix documentary inside the manosphere features [0:28] conversations with alpha male influencers bringing the content of the red-pilled corner of the [0:34] internet into the mainstream in a different way and my guest today says that the heat of the [0:40] spotlight could really change things i truly do think the biggest thing is seeing all of these [0:46] manosphere type figures in charge of our country and seeing like oh no i don't like this at all [0:54] this is not going well i miss the hall monitors this is jessica gross she is an opinion writer for [1:00] the new york times and for more than a decade she has tracked the rise of the so-called manosphere [1:07] going all the way back to gamer gate to the charges against andrew tate to the netflix limited series [1:14] adolescents so in her latest piece she argues that this might be the beginning of the end of [1:20] the cultural phenomenon known as the manosphere we're going to talk about what that means for the [1:26] rest of us who are parenting through it stay with us to help people wrap their arms around this at this [1:36] point what do you consider the manosphere i i would just describe it as like a social media ecosystem [1:45] and then i realized that's way too broad i mean i think it's accurate i would say it is a loose [1:51] collective of podcasters streamers social media personalities who tend to espouse conservative [2:02] views on gender roles and there's a broad range of people that you could categorize as part of the [2:09] manosphere i don't think any of them self-identify that way i was about to say because there's some [2:14] progressive dudes that i consider part of the manosphere because right my definition is so poor my [2:20] definition is like are you a man talking like is there do you have a podcast and i think it's [2:27] because for the media you know especially the mainstream political media there was this big [2:33] awakening watching trump in the 2024 election have this facility with that world now it feels like this [2:42] world is taking another kind of quarter turn in its evolution well i do think that the trump moment [2:49] was a little bit of a mirage in terms of how influential like joe rogan theovan were necessarily [2:58] over voters i think people were really unhappy financially in 2024 right and so how much was the [3:10] impact of these individual podcasters or seeming to have this sort of human relationship with these [3:16] podcasters or was it just trump captured the disaffection of lots of people specifically [3:25] young men who were turned off by a variety of things throw racism and sexism into that pile and [3:33] whether those podcasters captured that i mean here's what i'm going to tell you we are in such a fragmented [3:39] media universe no one knows nobody knows what's influential anymore and that you know i'm sure lots [3:48] of uh advisors to democrats and republicans are making so much money right now saying go on this podcast [3:55] no this is really what's influential and i you know pay very close attention to polling influence nobody [4:03] knows anymore and i think that is what has become incredibly clear to me in the past you know two [4:11] years it's really harder than ever to track what is the you know trigger that you know even gets [4:19] someone to the ballot box in the first place right so your most recent opinion article you actually gave [4:25] your own thoughts it's not a review it's kind of like a study of this new documentary that is on netflix [4:32] right about the manosphere it's called inside the manosphere and your thesis is actually that how [4:38] this documentary approaches its subjects is actually the first step into the downfall of the manosphere [4:47] and because it's been a few weeks since it's been released people have been watching it i'm wondering [4:52] if you still stand by that thesis i do i really do i think he i thought louis through row who was the [5:01] host and yeah the documentary filmmaker he had a very sort of subtle way of asking them questions [5:09] which showed both the emptiness of whatever their views were uh and also their cowardice he kept trying [5:17] to get these men to answer questions in front of their girlfriends and mothers yeah i actually read an [5:26] interview in the times about that how he considers that a strategy of like yeah with your interview [5:31] subjects they may talk a big game and then when you pull someone in the room who really knows them [5:37] they're kind of caught in between exactly so you know there's one uh manfluencer that he talks to [5:45] his name is myron manfluencer is hilarious every time i hear it his name is myron gains and he's talking this big game [5:52] about how i'm going to have multiple wives and like you know never be faithful to anyone and then [5:58] thorough uh questions him about this you know fantasy in front of his girlfriend and he immediately [6:04] backtracks that's a bridge we'll cross when we get there like right now that's so avoidant it's it's [6:10] it's something you never know man you can you can you can always change your mind down the road who [6:13] knows maybe i'll say uh you know i only just want to be with one girl because the two would be too tough [6:16] you know you've backtracked on that already and so for the viewer watching it you see the sort of [6:23] bravado the emptiness um and then you also see many of these influencers sort of escalate in their [6:33] behavior because it's attention it's an attention economy they're very aware that they just need to [6:39] continue keeping their audience's attention so it goes from just saying you know terrible things about [6:46] women about many different kinds of ethnic minorities um to saying to literally beating [6:55] people up in the streets like you're just escalating the behavior to an absurd degree because you have to [7:02] create stunts and that's something the documentary reveals and again we're talking about the corner of [7:08] the manosphere of these live streamers or looks maxers or whatever but people who i i don't think i'm [7:14] talking about random doctors here i'm sort of talking about this world of young men flexing and [7:20] peacocking for other young men and talk and being using a lot of misogyny in the way they talk about [7:27] straight relationships and there's this one in particular i guess it's at hs ticky talky where the [7:34] documentarian is sitting with him and just says why don't you you know try being good like like sort of [7:41] what's the thinking here and he actually pauses for a beat and he's he says something like i don't [7:47] think i would have the attention i would if i was just a good guy online and he's not wrong to me [7:57] there's sort of no belief system beyond attention and money for this group of the manosphere whereas [8:04] if you go back 10 15 years which is you know when most people cite the sort of origins of the manosphere [8:10] they really at least were genuinely racist and antiseptic it's like i'm not saying that was [8:17] better no like but jordan peterson right philosopher like he was like i have a set of beliefs i'm [8:24] teaching you how to live i'm referencing other philosophies like this is almost an academic [8:30] exercise for the masses to enjoy the some of the most famous and established ones at this point [8:37] you're right they have a foot in that tradition i also think it's like we're lumping in a lot of [8:43] different people together yeah someone like andrew huberman who i've listened to his podcast it's mostly [8:50] decent scientifically backed information right yeah i think often because these people at least portray [9:00] themselves to be uh socializing with each other so it's like he goes on rogan's podcast this is how [9:06] they promote each other and get more attention it's sort of a guilt by association thing where [9:11] i don't know this man's personal views but you know i'm just i'm just glad he's pro vaccine at [9:18] this point like the bar is in hell there's a couple lanes here right there's to me little gen z [9:26] leading you know digital natives who yes there's a little bit of a grift vibe yes but there is also [9:33] this world of true believers and to me the true believers take some ideas and very much are trying [9:39] to execute policy so whether that's pronatalism and some of the policies that you know some certainly [9:47] feminists would feel are regressive um whether you're having alpha male boot camps you know sort [9:54] in real life people to i i don't know what because real boot camp exists or the people uh as we mentioned [10:02] in the white house in the military who are like look recruitment is booming because we are presenting [10:08] a more like masculine de-woke-ified military there is a world of people who have taken that energy and [10:18] brought it to policy yes absolutely and i think um unfortunately a lot of the true believers of at least [10:26] different threads of the manosphere are currently in our federal government which paradoxically makes [10:33] it less popular among teenage boys because it does not have the frisson of counterculture anymore oh good [10:39] word new york times can you talk about the counterculture element of that because i do think we [10:44] underestimate the appeal of a world where people felt they had no boundaries after many years of being [10:52] locked down physically and then so they would argue rhetorically that is something that i don't know [10:59] where it's going like i don't know what the next thing is going to be that is going to provide that [11:05] same feeling but i truly do think the biggest thing is seeing all of these manosphere type figures in [11:13] charge of our country and seeing like oh no i don't like this at all this is not going well [11:20] i miss the hall monitors like this isn't funny anymore i mean certainly around the iran war [11:26] right like when you see how there are people talking in in that community of listeners who are worried [11:33] about the draft for example which there is no draft right now as far as we know there are not plans for [11:40] a draft but that anxiety surfacing so publicly was surprising to me absolutely i mean i think a majority [11:49] opinion of people under 40 is that they do not want america to be involved in foreign conflicts that [11:57] are not absolutely necessary and i think there is a lot of support for uh palestinian people and a lot [12:07] of disgust with the way israel has handled itself and you see this across the board men and women under [12:13] 40 and liberal conservative it's a horseshoe politic issue yes where you really see on both extreme [12:20] ends a displeasure that that links them politically i'm talking with jessica gross after the break we're [12:28] going to swap notes on parenting in the era of the manosphere the other secret preoccupation of this show [12:43] is how to raise my sons so they do not end up in one of my news stories um so come on a journey with [12:50] me i will moment uh because you and i have both followed this story and i i feel as though i often [12:58] feel like i don't want to i don't want to do what we're doing now i don't want to be two women talking [13:05] about what those men are doing yeah and that it's all inherently bad okay so i generally kind of stay away [13:11] from this kind of conversation totally but i also wanted to talk to you because i heard you might [13:15] have kids and i have two girls you have two girls lucky you girls because i you know it is hard to [13:26] think about like how do i encourage their confidence how do i maintain that confidence how do i teach them [13:32] how to embrace rejection or pick themselves up all of these things that i kind of honestly maybe [13:40] as a hetero woman kind of was like that's their problem you know sorry to that man suddenly feels [13:47] like my problem you know what i mean yeah certainly feels like how it's not just how do i make them [13:54] into young men but it's like how do i make them into people people who aren't ashamed of who they are [14:01] and that does include their gender of course and one of the things that the manosphere types have often [14:06] talked about is the sense that like boys and men are being made to feel ashamed of who they are and [14:11] what they are and that sort of thing and i don't always think that's completely wrong i think that's [14:15] right and i think that um you know as a parent i think there's a number of things that you can do that [14:23] are passive and it's just living your life you know i think it's setting an example of how [14:30] you and the men in your life who are adults treat each other treat the kids act in the world i think [14:38] that is the sort of most influential thing you can do i mean i keep seeing all of these people being [14:43] like we need a manosphere of the left and it's like no like kids are going to admire who they're going [14:51] to admire like this is a completely different you know sort of thing but it's like my older daughter [14:59] absolutely loves sabrina carpenter she's obsessed with her um the lyrics have me feeling like tipper [15:07] gore i'm just like i don't i was just waiting for it i was like i don't think she's gonna be into [15:16] this meta irony male gaze pop star but listen but i have to let her right like the second i start with [15:23] my like you know millennial feminist not she turns off immediately she loves sabrina carpenter and [15:30] anything i say against her she will just be mad about right yeah so i think we need to let our kids [15:36] in general find what they like in pop culture listen if it's andrew tate you you have a problem [15:43] and you need to talk to your child let me tell you it's even simpler than that i have conversations with [15:47] them about consent that are not described as conversations about consent right uh they're [15:54] they're under the age of 10 so they often go something like this so and so wanted to hug me [15:59] and i'm like oh how was that you know it's like a lot of inquiry well i didn't mind but i didn't want [16:05] to i'm like okay well here's a little story you never have to hug someone you don't want to hug [16:11] and you never are owed a hug people don't have to give you things because you like them or because [16:17] you've been friends before now i'm going to say some other version of this two years from now and [16:22] four years from now but sometimes i wish there was more of a community that talked about these things [16:30] that i could turn to you know what i mean that i could know hey like without somebody telling me [16:36] like oh it's overblown actually the girls are still struggling like it gets tied into a whole [16:41] windfall of progressive grievances right really what you're trying to do is be like no no i just [16:47] want to make one that you're not going to hate like that's my mission here but i feel like just [16:54] that you have that intention goes like 90 of the way right because there's only so much you can control [17:01] i guess the reason why i'm preoccupied with this is because i want to find a new way for women to [17:07] have a voice in this conversation that isn't about harm and doesn't involve the word toxic the whole [17:16] time i do actually think that's alienating and it doesn't feel now that everyone has diagnosed the [17:23] problem right you know such a profound way i kind of want to move to the next step and [17:30] to me that is related to our manosphere discussion right like so you don't have to wait for another [17:35] man to fill the gap okay so this is my spiciest take i've never give it to me i've never written it [17:41] and i i may someday i actually think we sh we have moved beyond a place where we need all of these sort [17:51] of separate girl-only spaces i think a big part of the solution is forcing more co-educational hanging out [18:00] because i think a lot of the sort of distrust and dislike of the other gender comes from a lack [18:09] of exposure and so i think getting kids to spend time with each other in like low stakes time yes [18:18] the dance like not the dance you're not here to pair up you're not here to discover your sexuality [18:25] a hundred percent like try and have a conversation and see if you can function yes so more activities [18:31] like not sports like they need the separate sports like i'm i get that i mean my kids were did co-ed [18:38] soccer when they were really little and the boys simply would not pass to them and i was like this [18:41] sucks like they're bummed out like it's not a good time so i think you know keep the sports what they [18:48] are and and the kids will certainly bond through that i think everything else like maybe we don't [18:54] need girls who code anymore maybe we don't we have like just everybody together encouraged to the best [19:02] of their ability and trust in the teachers or whatever adult is running a space to make sure that [19:09] the kids involved of every background are getting the attention that they need because i do think we're [19:14] at this moment where the more we separate the more we're telling kids you need to be separated [19:22] and why is that your spiciest take oh i think people who still are really into like no the girls [19:28] need the separate things or their self-esteem is going to be bad um are will be mad about it and will [19:34] disagree with me which is fine disagreement is you know i'm an opinion writer people disagree with me [19:39] all the time and maybe i'm wrong maybe there are girls who still do need those faces but i increasingly [19:44] feel like they don't and they don't or that when you have co-ed spaces the conversation is more open [19:54] to some of these spikier concepts like with your kids soccer game was there someone who should have [19:59] been like boys pass because you are actually bad players who don't know how to pass like should that [20:07] have been the coaching conversation yeah rather than you being like i gotta put them back in a girls [20:13] league like that's what i mean like is there there's a level of dialogue that is not happening no that's [20:18] such a good point that is such a good point i abdicated i was just like i'm not saying that i'm [20:24] not just like to me it feels like there's a way to talk about that without yeah like boys are bad and [20:29] girls are good and this is meat and this is victim and being like hey all-rounder knows how to pass [20:37] and then that that's not even gendered you know what i mean and it just but it would take like a [20:41] level of kind of awareness yes that honestly we don't have as parents on the sidelines it's true [20:47] we're deeply unhinged watching our kids the root of the problem is that they don't see each other [20:53] as fully human right like i always see that as the root it's like this they're other in some way and so [21:00] exposure we should just say you are not being this is not hyperbole like i have heard this kind of [21:05] language from some of the high profile voices as you said of this kind of extreme end of the [21:10] manosphere where they use the phrase subhuman to talk about women yeah they're like irrational [21:16] they shouldn't vote yeah we'll hear that more frankly listener if you're listening closely [21:21] um about repealing the you know the amendments and all this stuff and it's very jarring it's not great [21:30] i don't like it it's very jarring to hear that said out loud as though it is a like you know what [21:37] it's something to think about you know what i mean like should they be voting and i'm like why [21:43] why is this a dialogue don't you have something else to tackle and it's yeah it's real so well [21:49] i feel like that goes back to i mean the root of i think so much of the problem with the dialogue [21:57] goes back to the problems that were highlighted in the manosphere documentary which is like everything [22:03] is attention and so a nuanced real discussion among actual human beings who are seeing each other's [22:10] humanity and disagreeing politely is boring nobody wants to see that they want to see you can't monetize [22:17] that you can't monetize that that is no matter what ted lasso told you folks it's not entertainment [22:26] it's relational right all right well thank you for trying to hash all of this out with me people can [22:33] find your writing where uh at the new york times i write a twice weekly newsletter so if they just uh [22:42] google new york times jessica gross they will find a way to subscribe to that newsletter and my last name [22:47] is spelled g-r-o-s-e which is unusual um you can find me on instagram at just gross rights um and [22:55] those are sort of my main my main places where i'm talking all right well jessica thank you so much for [23:02] talking with me giving me advice helping me through this i appreciate it oh my pleasure i don't know how much [23:10] i wish i helped but i did try