I Will Step Aside For Any Winner, Including Peter Obi – Abubakar

[0:00] Tonight, an Arise News prime time special, an exclusive conversation with one of the most [0:07] enduring figures in Nigerian politics, former Vice President Atiku Abubaker. For decades, [0:14] his name has remained a constant in Nigeria's political equation, from the days of military [0:20] rule to the corridors of power as Vice President under Olusegun Obasanjo, to multiple presidential [0:27] bids. His journey has been long, relentless and unfinished. Now at 79, Atiku is gearing up for [0:36] what could be his seventh attempt at the presidency. He brings with him a vast political network, [0:44] deep experience and a legacy that includes investments in education and philanthropy. [0:50] But he also carries the weight of past defeats, lingering controversies and growing questions [0:57] among Nigerians. Is it time for something new? Because Nigeria itself has changed. The electorate [1:05] is younger, more restless and increasingly impatient with the old political order. So as Atiku Abubaker [1:14] steps forward once again, the questions are unavoidable. Can a familiar face still convince a [1:21] changing nation? Or is this one final bid against the tide? Can he unite a fragmented opposition? Can he [1:30] convince Nigerians he represents change, not continuity? I'll be joined exclusively by the former Vice [1:38] President of Nigeria, Atiku Abubaker. And later, we'll have top tier analysis of what he's had to say. [1:47] I'm Charles Eniogulu, and this is an Arise primetime special. So a familiar name returns to a familiar [2:02] quest, but in a very different Nigeria. Atiku Abubaker, former Vice President and one of the most [2:09] enduring figures in this country's political history, is preparing for what could be his seventh run for [2:15] the presidency in 2027. For decades, he's been at the heart of Nigeria's power structure, rising from [2:24] the SDP to the PDP, to the AC, then to the APC, back to the PDP, and now in the ADC, building a vast [2:34] network of political, business and personal alliances along the way. He's been close to power, and just as [2:42] as often, just short of it. From serving alongside Alushaegun Obasingo as Vice President, to contesting [2:49] and losing against figures like Mushu Dabiola, Umaru Musa Yaraduwa, Good Luck Jonathan, Muhammad [2:56] Buhari, and most recently Bola Ahmed Tinubu, his presidential ambition has remained constant. [3:03] But so have the questions. At 79, does Atiku represent experience, or an old political order Nigerians [3:13] are increasingly uncomfortable with? Can his vast network finally deliver victory? Or has the moment [3:21] passed him by? And in a country grappling with economic strain, insecurity, and shifting political [3:28] loyalties? Is this resilience or one final row of the dice? And I'm suitably delighted to say that the [3:39] former Vice President of Nigeria, Alhaji Atiku Abubakar, joins me now exclusively in the studio. Thank you [3:46] very much indeed for coming in. Thank you, Giles. And not only did you agree to do the interview, [3:53] you insisted on coming to the studio to do it. Of course, very much. So we appreciate that very much. [3:57] Now you've been a central figure in Nigerian politics for decades. And by the time the [4:03] election comes around in 2027, you'll be 80. Respectfully, I mean, this may be your last [4:11] realistic shot at the presidency. Does that make the stakes higher for you this time? [4:19] Certainly, yes. Because the stakes are higher because I believe that will be my last outing. [4:29] And so that's an incontrovertible fact. Okay. Right. So, so beyond the fact that you have said [4:42] conclusively that that will be your last outing, why should Nigerians take that gamble on you now? [4:49] Why should they believe that you represent the future and not the past? [4:54] I represent both the past and the future, simply because we have seen various levels of leadership [5:07] in the country, both young and old, and we're experiencing them. And I still believe that our [5:15] expectations of the young leadership is below what we thought. And we believe, I personally believe, [5:26] they require experience and they require tutelage from the older generation. [5:33] Yeah, but you don't have to be in power to give them, give them that tutelage. [5:36] Sometimes you need to be. I mean, you could be doing it now. [5:39] Yeah. Sometimes you need to be, because what I was able to learn from President Obasanjo through [5:46] his experience, I couldn't have learned it outside. Right. But critics say you represent the same [5:53] political establishment Nigerians are increasingly frustrated with. I mean, [5:58] why should they trust you to deliver something different? [6:01] But look at it. Look at, you know, the political experience. It's been a mixed one. We have had so [6:08] many young governors in a number of states who have failed woefully, you know, when it comes to [6:14] governors' child. And I believe those type of people still require, tutelage still require to learn from [6:23] experience. Believe me, I don't think I could have learned, if I were a president, what I have learned, [6:32] you know, being vice president to president, because he came with tremendous experience, [6:39] from a military head of state and now to a civilian president. There was a lot I learned. [6:47] But I wonder if the real challenge for you, Mr. Vice President, is not just defeating the incumbent, [6:56] Bola Ahmed Tinubu, but convincing Nigerians that you are not more of the same. I mean, [7:01] I know I'm banging on a bit about that, but why should they take the risk of choosing you now, [7:09] after so many previous attempts? Well, there is a clear and stark difference. [7:19] Take the cases of state governors in a number of states, being headed by relatively young people, [7:28] and failing woefully, simply because at the apex, they did not have a capable and experienced, [7:38] you know, president to guide them, and to, of course, give them the benefit of his experience. [7:45] And that's why we have been having a number of, you know, very, very woeful leadership at a number of [7:52] states, because they are being headed by inexperienced young men. Young men also require experience to be able [7:58] to succeed. But is it an individual thing or a systemic thing? I think, to me, I will describe it [8:06] as a systematic issue, because we have had more failures in states than we even had a different level. [8:16] Because I'm wondering whether you're saying that the system only became broken when you were no longer [8:22] in power. Not necessarily. But when we did not have capable presidents, we've experienced at the [8:34] end of affairs. And when was that? I mean, everybody, to be fair, recognizes the time that you and Obasinger [8:43] were in office as a sort of golden era, after sort of the return to democracy. But what other time [8:53] after that are you talking about? For instance, let's take the era of, after Umaru Yaradua, who started [9:02] very well, and was succeeded by Jonathan Goodluck. I know Jonathan Goodluck very well, a decent young man, [9:11] but also inexperienced. That, I believe, attributed, you know, to his, to his failure to, to manage affairs of the [9:21] country, uh, particularly when he was faced with challenges. So these are the type of things, uh, [9:27] that we, in fact, what I would like to see is real leadership training of our upcoming and young [9:35] generation politicians. I wish I could introduce a leadership training. Well, you could. Yeah. I mean, [9:42] you, you, you own a university and you, you could, you could start a leadership institute. Yes. We need [9:50] it. We need it in this country. But it hasn't occurred to you all this time that that's something [9:55] you ought to do? Well, really, the university is an independent body. Right. It's a growing institution. [10:01] It's a little over 20 years now. And of course, not that it hasn't produced, uh, very, very exceptional, [10:08] uh, products. I have made their products all over the world and I was astonished, uh, to see them. [10:14] Mm. Uh, but then, as you know, universities are developing institutions. So maybe in due cause, [10:22] uh, they should be able to do that. Yeah. Obviously you can start a leadership institute independent of [10:27] the university. Yeah. But, but you are now aligned with the African Democratic Congress or ADC at a time [10:34] when the party is facing legal battles as well as internal disputes. Do you believe that your presence [10:43] on the ADC is building a viable platform or are you joining a coalition that's already under terrible [10:50] strain? I, Charles, I must be frank with you. I, um, one of the initiators of this coalition or perhaps [11:01] the leading, you know, initiative of the coalition because I remember when the PDP lost the last [11:08] election. I addressed the party. I said, I don't see a future for PDP unless there is a coalition or [11:15] broad-based coalition or alliance. And, uh, the PDP leadership disagreed with me at that point in time. [11:21] What made you say that? I, I said that because I studied, you know, the political history of Nigeria [11:29] and I saw how alliances worked in the first republic, in the second republic. I mean, so it is not [11:36] difficult for one to, you know, to, to, to predict or to explain, you know, to what I will say, you know, [11:43] students of, uh, because I consider those young, uh, politicians as, uh, uh, future leaders of Nigeria. [11:53] So it's my responsibility to point out to them. And I pointed out to them that the only future for PDP is [12:01] in broad coalition and they disagreed with me. And the reason why they disagreed with me was simple, [12:07] simply because they didn't want to see my face, not what I was proposing. And now they have found [12:13] themselves in the same position. Yeah. But what I'm wondering is what was it that made you say that [12:20] the future of the PDP was only in the coalition, having yourself being a presidential candidate of the [12:26] party? I stand in the political history of Nigeria. No, I know, but that, that's a broad thing. [12:33] Yes. Talk about specifically, what is, what is it? What did you see in the PDP that there was a [12:39] warning sign? Yeah, because there was a declining, a decline in the popularity of PDP and the states, [12:46] they were winning. So there was a decline. There was no way, you know, they could have won on their own [12:51] without, you know, a coalition. Was there the nettlesome factor of Nyesa Mwike there? [13:00] Well, I mean, in fact, more or less, it was like a kind of gang up. Gang up against you? [13:09] Possibly. Against the party? Possibly against the party or based on their individual ambitions. [13:16] Right. Now, you're in the ADC coalition, as we said. I mean, is, is the coalition driven by a [13:27] shared vision? And I'm coming off the back of what you just said about what happened in the PDP. [13:32] And you've been in several political parties, including the APC. So you've got a very good sense [13:38] of how parties come together and what makes them fall apart. Yeah. [13:43] Is this coalition of the ADC driven by a shared vision or simply a shared determination to remove [13:51] Bola Ahmed Jinbu? Let me say, let me say both, because Bola has been a very bad president, [13:59] to be honest with you. How so? I mean, because I didn't expect that from him, you know, [14:05] in the way he governs the country, whether economically or otherwise, it's a disappointment. [14:16] Right. Well, I'm going to return to that issue in a minute, because that's obviously important. [14:24] But if the ADC is about vision, which you suggest that it is, [14:32] you know, to be honest with us. Can you clearly state what unites you beyond opposing the incumbent? [14:39] Well, a number of things unite us. For instance, the issue of deepening our democratic institutions [14:50] and the issue of suppression of powers under the constitution. We feel very, very concerned about [14:58] that. We have seen how virtually, you know, a presidency has almost done the various institutions [15:12] that are supposed to be checks and balances, you know, under one roof, which is quite dangerous. [15:21] Right. Okay. You've run for president now, as we said, multiple times. Some have called you [15:30] a perennial contender. I'm sure you've heard that yourself a number of times. And you are aiming [15:36] to run again in 2027. What, if anything, makes this attempt different from the others? [15:44] Different in what way, Charles? Well, that's why I'm asking you that question. [15:48] What makes it different from the other times that you've run? What makes it different from the other [15:54] times is that you have a more broader coalition now. You have elements from APC, from PDP, from NMPP, [16:05] from label. That makes it a much broader, you know, coalition than what even happened in the past before. [16:14] Yeah. But for you personally? For me personally, I see a lot of future because within the broad [16:23] coalition, you see people of my generation, you see people below my own generation and, [16:29] you know, down the line. So you can see clear, you know, succession, you know, pattern emerging. [16:37] Wasn't that the same thing that happened in what was the APC coalition? [16:43] Not necessarily. Not necessarily. I didn't see it in the APC coalition. You know, I left the APC [16:49] quite early. Once I realized that they are going the wrong way, I left. [16:55] Some would say once you realized that your political ambition wouldn't be achieved. [17:00] No, no, no, no, no, not about that. It wasn't about the personal ambition at all. No, absolutely not. [17:06] So what was it about? Quite a number of things. I mean, of course, you are dragging me to, [17:13] you know, start going into the administration of late President Buhari and I wouldn't want to do [17:21] that because he's late. Right. Okay. Understood. Let's return to the ADC, which is the matter of the [17:30] moment. If a consensus candidate emerges within the ADC coalition, would you step aside in the [17:39] interest of unity? No, it's not the issue of stepping aside, but would I support? Right. [17:46] Our, I think our, what would I say in the coalition is that we will at first, the first option will be [17:57] to work out a consensus. If that doesn't, of course, emerge, then we go for the other president. I mean, [18:03] I will support anybody who emerges. Right. So either a consensus candidate and that's the first option. [18:10] Yes. That's the first option as far as the party is concerned. We will aim at consensus. If we don't [18:15] get it, then we will go for elections. Right. That sounds like something that will be terribly [18:19] disputatious. I don't expect we will get to that level because we are dealing with really [18:28] mature politicians and experienced politicians as well. But you're also dealing with people with [18:33] huge political ambitions. Well, that's a different thing altogether, but we have all agreed that this [18:39] is the way to save democracy in this country. You now, of course, share that political space [18:49] with figures like Pito B, Rabi Ukwankwaso, Rotimi Amechi, Nasir El-Rufay, Aminu Tambowal, and a host of [18:57] others. I mean, some would say that this is not a partnership. This is a rivalry waiting to happen, [19:05] because if you ask many Nigerians, their concern is that this might collapse under the weight of [19:11] competing ambitions. No, no, no. Just clearly you can see that there is a generational progression [19:18] there. So, I mean, if people of my generation don't get it, the people who may get it next may [19:26] be the next generation. I mean, clearly you can see a generational structure there. And it's deliberate. [19:32] Right. If it comes down to one ticket, which ultimately it will come down to, [19:40] will you step aside for somebody like that? There is no question of stepping aside. [19:44] No, no. I want to ask you a direct question now. If it comes down to that single ticket, [19:50] will you step aside for Pito B, for example, if he's more popular? Yes or no? [19:56] I will step aside for any winner. Right. Yeah. Including Pito B. Of course, if he is a contender, [20:04] why not? I mean, he was your vice presidential running mate. Would that make it a bit more [20:12] difficult for you to accept him coming above you? Why? What is difficult there? [20:18] Well, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. I mean, politics is either you go through democracy [20:22] or you go through consensus. Right. So, what is there if he emerges through, you know, consensus [20:27] or he emerges through electoral process? Right. Okay. Well, let me talk about something else, [20:37] which is the political power of the North, which everybody recognizes is considerable. I mean, [20:45] it's almost the determining factor in any election in Nigeria. Your political strength has often been [20:52] tied to the North, but also, I mean, you're often seen as somebody who has a widespread across Nigeria, [21:00] you know, particularly there's the Southeast, South-South and so on. But today, [21:06] the North appears more fragmented than ever. Do you agree with that assessment? [21:12] No, I think I would rather say the North appears to be more united now than fragmented. [21:18] Well, there seem to be many, multiple power blocks, competing loyalties. I mean, [21:23] the North Central region is asserting more of an independence away from the rest of the North. [21:29] The North Central has always asserted more independence because it used to be the middle [21:37] belt, you know. So, from the First Republic, it has been, you know, the position of the North Central. [21:43] It has always been a middle belt, but it was, but in the broader political sense, [21:47] it has always been part of the North. Do you genuinely have the backing of the North? [21:53] Can it still unite behind you, or has that political base shifted beyond your control? [22:00] No. The North still remains my major political base, because I want more Northern states than [22:10] any other states. I want only two in the South-West. I don't think I want any in the South-East and the [22:17] South-South. [22:17] Right. And you're confident that that remains the same even today? [22:23] Yes, I am. [22:24] Right. If the North doesn't monolithically rally behind you as their candidate, does that fundamentally [22:34] weaken your path to the presidency? [22:37] In fact, politically, the North appears much more united now than ever. [22:42] No, but what I'm saying is that if it doesn't monolithically, in other words, [22:47] if they don't all come together and rally behind you, how much does that weaken your path to the [22:54] presidency? [22:56] The majority of the North will always come together. [23:02] And you're the person to bring them together. [23:03] That's right. [23:05] What would be the basis for it? [23:07] Because that is my political base. [23:09] Yeah, but I mean, a lot of other people would argue that it's their political. [23:12] Just like the South-East, the political base of Peter Obi. [23:15] Right. [23:15] And the South-South is the political base of Amechi. [23:20] Yes. [23:21] The reason I say that is that you have so many different elements today. [23:26] I mean, in that Northern sort of equation, it's not like it used, it's not like under Buhari, [23:33] for example, where you had this massive vote that was constantly going to him. [23:39] Okay. Can you tell me among the current leaders in the North who has more votes than I have? [23:45] Well, it depends on who has been running. [23:49] I mean, you talked about different tiers of... [23:51] Well, I mean, I don't know. [23:52] So, I mean, you're talking of figures like Tambuali, you're talking of figures like Kwan Kwaso, [23:58] and others, and Meruvaez, and also the emerging political, you know, figures. [24:06] None of them has got that Northern Bloc vote as much as I have got. [24:10] But they also, people like Kwan Kwaso have the Northern strategic vote, don't they? [24:15] Kano. [24:16] Yes. That's strategic. [24:18] Yeah. We consider that to him. [24:21] Right. [24:21] Yeah. That's why he's a leader in the coalition. [24:25] But you don't think that the absence of such a vote would affect you fundamentally? [24:30] Well, the absence of it may affect, but even his own case, you can see how Kano is now split [24:38] between himself and his former governor. So, there is even a split in that. [24:45] Let's turn to the issue of zoning. There is a strong argument rooted in Nigeria's informal power [24:53] rotation that after a Northern presidency, it is now the turn of the South to lead. [25:00] So, why are you seeking to run in 2027? Are you going against that principle? Or do you [25:05] believe zoning no longer matters? [25:09] No. I think it is an error or a mistake to say that there is an agreement on the issue of zoning in [25:18] Nigeria. Let me tell you, the only political party that has zoning provision in its constitution is the [25:28] PDP. All the rest don't have. So, if anything, all the other political parties are borrowing or [25:37] learning from PDP's zoning formula. [25:40] But you agreed with that zoning formula. I mean, you were the vice president. [25:44] Yes. I agree with the zoning formula. [25:46] So, why do you disagree with it now? [25:48] Wait a moment. [25:49] Yeah. [25:49] But if you are talking about zoning formula in the PDP and it is North-South, the South has governed [25:56] for 18 years and the North-10. So, who is in a deficit, if you want to be fair? [26:01] Yeah. But is it, is that, I mean, you... [26:04] Even if you apply it globally, apply it globally, I'm telling you, the only party that has zoning [26:15] in its constitution, entrenched, is the PDP. The rest don't have. [26:20] Right. But the principle, though, of zoning, do you agree with it? [26:26] I agree with the principle. In fact, I will even go further. Let me tell you what happened in [26:36] the 204, was it, the constitutional conference of Abacha. There was an argument between the late [26:47] Dr. Alex Equeme and myself, in particular, representing the late Sheo Yaradua group. [26:56] Dr. Alex Equeme proposed a provision in the constitution for a rotational presidency. [27:04] And I was leading the Yaradua group and I opposed it. And because we control about 60 to 70 percent [27:11] of the delegates, the late Dr. Equeme's amendment was not through. Now, in hindsight, when I attended [27:25] the funeral of late Dr. Equeme, I admitted that I made a mistake. I should have supported Dr. Equeme's [27:34] amendment. And the presidency would have rotated to all the zones in the country. And I think [27:45] that is the most equitable provision that could be, you know, included in the constitution. [27:51] Right. Is that something that you would push for if you became president? [27:55] Dr. Definitely, yes. Even if it is the only amendment I can make, I will move towards that. [28:02] But that push will come only if you become president. Because right at this point, [28:08] you're making an argument about the number of years the North has had and the number of years the South [28:14] has had. And some would say that that is for your own political convenience. [28:18] Dr. Not my own political convenience, but for the political stability of the country. [28:24] Dr. Because if that amendment, if that provision were there, you would not be having all these [28:30] arguments now about zoning or no zoning, who is cheated and who is not cheated, and so on and so [28:37] forth. Because every zone would have had the opportunity to produce a president. [28:40] Dr. Yes, but that's not… [28:41] Dr. You would know that even if you don't produce a president now, [28:46] you will produce a president in the future. [28:47] Dr. But are you prepared to deal with the possible backlash that would come from this [28:57] people in this country if they perceive that you're abandoning that zoning, which appears to [29:02] be the way they see it now? [29:03] Dr. It is not abandoning zoning. Rather, it is entrenching zoning. [29:06] Dr. Well, the way they see it… [29:07] Dr. Because right now, zoning is not in Nigeria's constitution. It's not. [29:10] Dr. No, I understand that. But what I'm saying is that you running is the greatest, [29:17] if you like, testament to your philosophy around zoning because it suggests that, you know, [29:25] a lot of people would say that it's the turn of the south. I mean, that's why, you know, [29:31] that's why people like PDP have zoned it to the south and so on. [29:34] Dr. Charles, I'm telling you, I mean, most of these arguments are, you know, more, [29:41] you know, self-centered. I'm giving you the most rational argument. There is no party that is zoning in [29:48] this constitution. So if you don't have zoning in your constitution, why are you pushing for it? [29:52] Dr. Yeah, but it doesn't have to be in the constitution. [29:54] Dr. It has to. [29:55] Dr. There has to be a principle. [29:57] Dr. For you, it has to. For a multi-ethnic and multi-religious country like Nigeria, it has to. [30:05] Dr. But if there is a consensus within your party, for example, I mean, to say that in the interest of [30:12] propriety, in the interest of justice, which you have talked about, that perhaps it is time for, [30:19] you know, they should let the south finish the two terms and it will return to the north in 2031. [30:26] Dr. No, then you cannot balance the deficit. Already the north is behind by eight years. [30:37] So what is the fairness there? What is the balance there? [30:40] Dr. Yeah, but isn't it, isn't it, is there an element of your own political, [30:45] Dr. Because I mean, you have said that after 2027, you're not going to run again. [30:49] Dr. It'll be essentially too late for you to run again. [30:52] Dr. Well, that's left to the next generation to take it up. [30:56] Dr. So there's an element of your own personal ambition in whatever position you take about zoning. [31:02] Dr. No, not necessarily, not necessarily. It's not anything personal at all. [31:08] Dr. Right. Okay. Well, let me turn to something else, because if you were to get the ticket, [31:15] Dr. You will run up against an incumbent with what some say is a formidable political machine. [31:25] What is your concrete strategy to defeat President Tinibu, not just politically, but structurally? [31:32] Dr. But why would I sit down and then start discussing about my political strategy at this forum? [31:42] Dr. That's a strategy that you're going to have to employ. [31:44] Dr. For all what I know is that a coalition candidate facing Bolatinibu, Bolatinibu is dead on arrival. [31:56] Dr. Right. But those are just, I mean, it's almost like a slogan, isn't it? [32:00] Dr. No, it's not a slogan, but it's a fact. I mean, look at the leadership of the coalition. [32:07] If each and every one of them will bring their zone, you know, to electoral victory, where will Bolatinibu stand? [32:16] Dr. Right. Well, let me put it another way, since you don't want to share your strategy for unseating him. [32:24] What is the one thing President Tinibu is doing today that you would immediately reverse if you became president? [32:31] Dr. Everything is wrong with President Tinibu. [32:37] Dr. So you'd basically sweep everything aside? [32:41] Dr. Everything is wrong with President Tinibu. I mean, honestly, perhaps in my life, this is the worst administration I have seen in this country. [32:55] Dr. Well, again, as I said, that's just a broad term. [32:58] Dr. Yeah, yeah. You know, I feel terribly disappointed. I feel terribly disappointed. [33:05] Dr. Are there any specific things that you're disappointed with? [33:09] Dr. Well, I mean, you know, you can say, okay, maybe we belong to the same age group. [33:20] But I would say the only experience he didn't have was he didn't have the federal experience like I had before him. [33:30] But I thought he would do better than he is doing at the moment economically. Otherwise, I feel disappointed. [33:39] Dr. Okay, well, let's take one thing that you mentioned there, which is the economy. [33:45] Everyone agrees that Nigerians are facing severe economic hardship today. If you were in office tomorrow, what is the first decision you would take, let's say, within 30 days, that would tangibly improve people's lives if you became president? [34:04] Dr. I think, I believe security, law and order is basic. Whatever you want to achieve, if you don't have security, you don't have law and order, I don't think you can implement whatever policy, whether it is job creation, whether it is infrastructure development, whether it is healthcare, whatever, you must have a secure and stable country. [34:37] Dr. Well, I think most people would agree with that. The question is, how would you have a stable and secure country if you were president? [34:46] Dr. Well, to tackle the issue of law and order, the issue of security, and there are many ways you can do that. I mean, it is not a topic that, you know, you begin to discuss at this level. [35:01] Dr. Well, security is a very fundamental and very sensitive issue. Let me remind you, Boko Haram started in 2002, when we were in office. And the president and I met and decided that we should put it down decisively. And we did. By the time we left, there was no Boko Haram. [35:33] Boko Haram the surface after we left. So, I think Northern Nigeria doesn't have the capacity to do it, but it requires leadership. [35:45] Dr. Right. Well, as I'm sure you know, for people to, I mean, you can't say, well, I'm going to deal with it decisively. That's not enough. If you're running for office, people are going to want to know what you're going to do specifically, so that they can compare it to what is already being done and see who is the better bet. [36:07] Dr. First of all, I believe we don't have enough armed forces personnel, well trained and well equipped. We have not, even if we had invested so much money, then the money is being misapplied. [36:28] Dr. This is a Nigeria that used to perform credibly at international peacekeeping operations. Anywhere Nigerian troops or forces went to, whether they were military men or whether they were police, they came back with distinction. [36:46] Dr. How come that we can't deal with internal insecurity? All what it requires is policies that should deal with that. And those policies involves more men to be trained, more equipment to be supplied, more welfare for these armed men or military people, and so on and so forth. [37:24] Dr. And less of the corruption that is also available, you know, even within the military itself. [37:32] Dr. Well, you mentioned the word corruption. Some people have corruption concerns about you, which leads to credibility concerns. At least that's the perception. And I'm sure you know that perception shapes trust. [37:47] Dr. Why do you think a significant number of Nigerians still question your credibility? And what have you done to change that perception? [37:54] Dr. Well, my corruption only arose through allegations which were not proved. [38:01] Dr. Well, your former principal was one of the people who led the charge. [38:07] Dr. Yeah, he had every opportunity. He set up a panel under the former attorney general, Bayo Ojo. Nuri Baru was a member. [38:19] Dr. Eero Fai was a member. And they came to my office. They said, we have, you know, the instructions of Mr. President to probe you. [38:29] I said, but do you know I have a constitutional immunity? They said, yes. I said, okay, I have decided to waive the immunity. Probe me. And they probed me. What did they find? Nothing. Nothing. [38:43] Dr. So why, why does that perception persist? And why do you think your- [38:49] Dr. It's a political issue. [38:50] Dr. Your principal took it upon himself to- [38:52] Dr. It's a political issue. [38:54] Dr. To publicize it. [38:55] Dr. It's a political issue. [38:56] Dr. It's a political issue. Simply. I'm saying this for the first time in the public, that the president set up a panel to investigate a vice press, his own vice president, who has immunity. [39:11] Dr. Right. And, but where does all your money come from? I mean, you're said to be a pretty wealthy man. [39:20] Dr. Before I went into politics, I was already in business. I was in oil and gas logistics. I was in agriculture. I was in a number of, you know, economic sectors of the country before I began. I virtually set up PDP. I virtually funded it. Why was I not being accused of corruption at that time? [39:43] Dr. Right. So you are a very wealthy man, aren't you? [39:47] Dr. I wouldn't say a very wealthy man. I'm comfortable. [39:50] Dr. I mean, do you have the kind of wherewithal to go up against the financial arsenal of President Tinubu and the incumbent APC administration? [40:05] Dr. I don't have, but the power of the people are there. I don't have. [40:12] Dr. But Nigeria, of course, as you know, is, I mean, you talked about funding the PDP and all the rest of it. Nigeria is a money bags democracy. [40:22] Dr. Well, I mean, you believe all the money bags are in APC now? You believe? No? There are some that are not in the APC. They don't have sympathy for APC because APC has even made them poorer. [40:36] Dr. Right. So you're not worried about the financial muscle that you can muster? [40:43] Dr. No, I'm not worried. I'm not worried because they are using public money and the public can take the money and do what they want. [40:55] Dr. Now, there was a time, Mr. Vice President, when restructuring was at the very heart of your political philosophy. You articulated it forcefully. You even published a detailed case for it. [41:10] Dr. I even have your book. [41:11] Dr. Yeah, that's what I'm saying, that many regarded as a blueprint for Nigeria's future. But then, in recent years, the urgency seemed to have faded from your messaging, particularly in the 2023 campaign. [41:24] Dr. So let me ask you this directly. Is restructuring still a core conviction for you or has political reality forced you to quietly move on from it? [41:36] Dr. I have not changed my position on restructuring. I have not. It appears, you know, political issues, you know, have also a generational lifespan, you know. [41:53] Dr. Maybe. The Nigerians don't now feel that restructuring is no more important because of the challenges they are facing, insecurity, hunger, unemployment, corruption. [42:05] You know, all these things have now come, you know, really to be the forefront, you know, of what is worrying Nigerians or the challenges facing Nigerians. [42:15] They have even forgotten about their freedoms. They have forgotten, you know, about restructuring and so on and so forth. [42:22] Dr. Doesn't that intimidate you that the size, the colossal size of the problems, if you were to be president, that you'd have to inherit? [42:31] Dr. No, it doesn't intimidate me because I can identify competent people in this country who can help me overcome all those challenges. [42:40] Dr. And was it you who picked the people who drove the Obasanjo administration, the Obasanjo-Atiku administration? [42:53] Dr. I would not say solely, but mostly because President Obasanjo just was coming out from jail and I was not a politician and I did most of the politicking. [43:03] Dr. Well, a lot of those people, in fairness, stand out and they were people who had the capacity to take Nigeria from many years of rot under military rule to a completely different, [43:18] what, as I said, some people call a golden era. So that suggests a knack for picking the right people. [43:26] Dr. I remember I visited the United States, Europe to headhunt and interview Nigerians. The president graciously offered me that opportunity. I did. [43:44] And I brought a number of them back and they proved themselves. [43:50] Dr. We're coming to the dying minutes of this very interesting conversation. And once again, thank you very much for coming in to talk to us about it. [44:02] Dr. But what's your final message to the Nigerian people? [44:07] Dr. My final message to the Nigerian people is they should vote out APC if they want their future. [44:18] Dr. And if they don't? [44:24] Dr. It's going to be a disaster. I don't see the pathway to a brighter future for Nigeria in APC. Certainly not. [44:37] Dr. And of course, for you, that would be the end of the line, basically. [44:43] Dr. As God wills. [44:47] Dr. Well, on that sort of poignant philosophical note, I want to thank you very much indeed, Mr. Vice President. [44:57] Thank you for taking the time to come and talk to us. We appreciate it very much. [45:02] Dr. Thank you very much, Charles. I hope it will not be too long before we meet again. [45:06] Dr. I hope to see you again soon. [45:09] Dr. Unlike the last one. [45:10] Dr. Thank you very much indeed. And Alhajia Tiku Abubaka is the former Vice President of Nigeria. [45:16] Dr. Thank you very much. [45:17] Dr. Thank you very much.