How Trump’s Iran war is driving military dissent — The Take

[0:00] today. The U.S.'s war with Iran is sparking doubt from within. [0:04] We're here, dozens and dozens of veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. [0:09] We're here because we don't want service members today to make the same mistakes we made. [0:14] As opposition to the war with Iran grows, [0:17] some inside the U.S. military are starting to question what they're being asked to do. [0:22] I'm Walika Bilal and this is The Take. [0:24] Hey everyone. As always, we'd love to hear how today's topic is resonating with you. [0:35] As you're watching this episode on YouTube or Spotify, leave us a comment and let us know. [0:40] If you're listening to the audio version of this conversation on your favorite podcast app, [0:44] we want to hear from you too. [0:46] Leave us a review and reach out on social media where you can find us at AJEPodcasts. [0:53] Now, here's today's show. [0:58] My name's Mike Preissner. I'm the Executive Director at the Center on Conscience and War. [1:03] Mike, welcome to The Take. It's really good to have you. [1:05] I want to start with this moment that's gone viral. [1:09] It happened at the music festival Coachella in California, where I am. [1:13] And in this clip, Julian Casablanca, who's the lead singer of the rock band The Strokes, [1:19] was on stage and he'd said something that took some of the people in the crowd by surprise. [1:25] You guys excited about the drafts? [1:27] Oh, wait, no, not the NFL draft. I'm talking about in six months. I think everyone's going [1:34] to have to eligible register who's eligible for the military. You guys excited? No, no. Whoops, no. [1:41] Now, I want to be very clear. The US does not have the draft right now. There hasn't been a military [1:51] draft since 1973. So what is he actually referencing here? [1:56] Yeah. So the way it works in the United States is we have what's called the Selective Service, [2:00] which is basically registering yourself for the draft. So anyone born a male between the ages of [2:07] 18 and 24, you're technically required to sign yourself up for the Selective Service, [2:13] but it's not enforced. So if you don't do it, nobody really cares. And so people do it because [2:19] sometimes when you get a driver's license, it's a box that you check. Sometimes if you want a certain [2:23] type of student loan, you have to register for the Selective Service. But by and large, [2:26] it's an unenforced aspect of the American military system. What is happening is that in the last [2:34] defense budget, it was this measure that was just snuck into the last defense budget that was passed [2:39] by Congress, which basically said they were going to just automatically register anyone in that [2:43] demographic I described for the draft. And so the reason this is a problem is because this is an [2:48] invasion of privacy. This hurts trans and undocumented immigrant people. There are [2:53] many people who their religious beliefs would prevent them from registering for the Selective [2:58] Service in the first place. This completely gets rid of any mechanisms that they have to be able to [3:05] refuse to register for the Selective Service. And so and I think the reason that it caused so many [3:10] groans in the crowd at Coachella is because, you know, this is stuff that was had already been planned, [3:16] like they already been planned to make this automatic draft registration thing. So it probably wouldn't [3:21] have hit as hard as it is now because the news broke. At the same time, there is a disastrous [3:27] escalating war in the Middle East. And so, of course, that's what's on everyone's mind. Oh, [3:31] you're telling me that we're getting into World War Three, while at the same time, [3:35] we're all going to be automatically registered. And so, yeah, it hit hard, clearly for that reason. [3:39] Yeah, people are definitely talking about it online. We've seen people really expressing their [3:45] their unhappiness with this. I don't think they understand that if they ever try to draft [3:50] your average American citizen, we're just going to jail. Who do these people think we are? Honestly, [3:55] they think so little of us. There's no chance I'm going to war for you. I will flee. I will go to jail. [4:00] I will. So, Mike, as you said, this is all happening as the U.S. is in the middle of a war [4:05] with Iran. Trump has deployed around 10,000 troops to monitor security in the Strait of Hormuz. [4:12] Trump's press secretary, Caroline Levitt, has clarified that while a draft is not part of the [4:19] current plan, President Trump is keeping all options on the table. The president, as commander [4:24] in chief, wants to continue to assess the success of this military operation. It's not part of the [4:31] current plan right now, but the president, again, wisely keeps his options on the table. [4:35] So what does that mean to you? Is there going to be a draft? Can you see that happening? [4:41] Well, look, a large scale war in Iran, I'm not really sure the U.S. has the manpower for that [4:47] kind of thing. You know, the war in Iraq, which was against a much less formidable military, right? [4:54] I mean, Iraq had lost all conventional weapons and it was a lot of ingenuity and guerrilla warfare [4:59] tactics to fight, you know, the huge military might of the U.S. military. Iran has really [5:04] sophisticated advanced conventional weapons, which we have seen. It's actually surprised the U.S., [5:10] and it's been very hard for them to adapt to these tactics. In the Iraq war, there wasn't a draft, [5:15] but there was what we called a backdoor draft. So my generation, you know, if you served during the [5:19] troop surge era, you could not get out of the military. When your contract ended, they kept you [5:25] in past your contract. It was called stop loss. And thousands and thousands of thousands of [5:29] soldiers who were supposed to get out, who served their four years or whatever, how many number of [5:33] years it was, and were forced to stay in the military and go on more combat deployments. If [5:37] they hadn't done that in the Iraq war, it's quite possible they would have had to have a draft to be [5:42] able to meet those demands. A large scale war in Iran, which Trump has, of course, they said nothing [5:46] is off the table. So that includes a large scale ground war in Iran. Yeah, of course they have to think [5:51] about the draft as an option because they know from experience it is very difficult to wage a [5:55] war like that without a certain number of troops. I think, you know, the reason that the U.S., as you [6:01] mentioned, has not had a draft since the Vietnam War, the Pentagon has been very strategic about [6:08] avoiding a military draft at all costs. And that's because the last time there was a draft, [6:13] there was a large scale rebellion within the United States military. Jim McCall is typical of [6:18] thousands of young Americans who feel strongly enough about the United States role in Vietnam [6:23] to defy their local draft boards. They condemn the war as immoral and choose to outlaw themselves [6:29] from their own country rather than take up arms. Anti-draft demonstrations, often involving the [6:34] burning of draft cards, are one of the most frequent expressions of protest among the youth of America [6:39] today. So they learn their lessons of that. And they know that it's a danger. If they enact a draft, [6:45] it's going to instantly create some level of resistance from within the armed forces, [6:49] especially if that war starts going badly. So you mentioned a rebellion back during [6:53] the Vietnam War time. It might be too much of a stretch to say that's happening right now, [6:58] I take it, but there is discontent, right? You are the executive director of the Center on [7:03] Conscience and War, and you are hearing that discontent firsthand. You help service members who [7:09] are questioning their role in the military. What are you hearing? [7:14] Yeah, you know, we have a hotline where soldiers can call and learn about their rights. Since the [7:18] Iran War started, we've fielded hundreds and hundreds of calls from service members who are [7:23] completely opposed to participating in the war. Of those calls, over 100 have actually taken steps to [7:29] file as conscientious objectors, which means you are getting yourself discharged from the military, [7:35] because since joining, you had a profound change in beliefs to the point where you cannot participate [7:40] in killing at all directly or indirectly in any kind of support role. And many of these people had [7:46] imminent deployments, were days or hours away from deploying to the Middle East. And it's a [7:53] range of people, it's lower enlisted, it's high ranking officers, it's fighter pilots, it's physicians, [7:58] it's infantry personnel, it's really every branch of the military, people from all branches and all, [8:03] you know, generations of people who have joined, you know, in the past 10-15 years. There's a real [8:11] revulsion at what they are seeing. The number one thing that we hear from these callers is the [8:16] the bombing of the Manab Girl School. It had a very profound impact on people, of course, but these [8:21] are gears that started turning prior to that, right? I mean, people in the military now witnessed the [8:26] Israeli war on Gaza through their phones, were really able to see the impacts of modern warfare, [8:33] waged with impunity by a country like Israel and the United States. And so when this war started, [8:39] you know, with Israel, beginning with the U.S. carrying out the same type of action that Israel [8:44] became notorious for throughout that war, that, of course, was a breaking point for a lot of people. [8:50] Comparatively, the number of clients that we have now filing as CEO, it's about, in the past month, [8:55] it's about double what we normally handle in a single year. And compared to the war on terror, [9:00] it is the highest rate and frequency of people filing as CEO than at any point during the entire [9:07] wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so I think it represents a real shift in public consciousness. [9:13] The American people are opposed to this war. That's what's reflected in the military. But people [9:18] in the military in particular are young Americans, people who have gone through a significant shift [9:24] in their consciousness in this country, people who grew up as children during the war on terror and [9:28] remember its lessons. And so, again, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the 1.3 million people [9:35] serving in the U.S. military. [9:37] Most people in the military do not know about their CEO rights and, of course, do not know about [9:41] our organization. So in a very small sample size, just within our small reach, our small bubble of [9:47] people that find our phone number, find our social media, I would say it's a pretty significant frequency. [9:52] Hmm. You mentioned hearing from people about the Manab school attack. What else are people telling you [10:00] about why they no longer feel comfortable? Because I imagine this has to be a very difficult decision. [10:05] It's not like anyone willy-nilly signs up for the military and then decides, [10:09] oh, no, I've changed my mind completely without something making them change their mind. [10:13] Oh, you're completely right. Because think about this, too. You're telling your [10:17] brothers and sisters in arms, you know, you're telling your comrades, your fellow service members, [10:21] I can't take part in this. I'm out of here. I'm leaving you guys. And so it's a really [10:27] difficult decision for people because there's, of course, social pressure from within, [10:32] there's fear of retaliation. But there's also, you know, people feel a real loyalty [10:35] and responsibility to the people that they're serving with. The people that call us and begin [10:40] to file a CO, they do so because they have no other choice. They cannot do their jobs. They cannot [10:46] do what they're being told and take part in the killing of people in Iran or elsewhere in the [10:52] Middle East. In terms of some other reasons that people are mentioning other than the Manab [10:56] Girls School. Of course, when Pope Leo had come out and started making statements against the war. [11:02] I would simply say, once again, what I said in the Urbi message on Sunday, asking all people of [11:11] goodwill to search always for peace and not violence, to reject war, especially a war which [11:20] many people have said is an unjust war. You know, we had a large number of people call [11:24] because that inspired them and made them realize that they couldn't reconcile [11:28] their job with their spiritual beliefs. Conscience Subjector is not just available to religious [11:33] people, though. It's any moral, deeply held moral belief. So religious and non-religious, [11:39] those both apply. I think a kind of another overarching kind of theme that we hear with callers, [11:45] though, is, of course, there's specific incidents, you know, the bombing of the girls' school, [11:49] the bombing of civilian infrastructure, you know, Trump's threats to wipe out Iranian civilization, [11:56] to bring them back to the Stone Age. You know, that is a particular thing that we've heard, [11:59] but it is part of like a kind of overall erosion and trust and confidence in their leadership. I mean, [12:06] look at Donald Trump, look at J.D. Vance, look at Pete Hegseth, right? Look at Tulsi Gabbard, [12:10] look at the people that are in charge of this military machine. They're kind of weird people. [12:16] Unless you are really in to their kind of far-right politics, you don't see them as competent, [12:23] you don't see them as credible, you don't see them as worthy of following into battle and dying [12:28] or killing other people because these guys say that you need to do it. And so I think in general, [12:35] even people who aren't really political, they can see that there's no real explanation for this war, [12:40] why are we fighting it? It's for these people that are kind of freaks, [12:44] that they see as freaks and are kind of embarrassed by them. Yet they are being sent to die [12:51] because, you know, Trump is embarrassed that this war blew up in his face and didn't go as easy as [12:56] he thought. So I think it's a pretty reasonable conclusion to come to that you don't want to [13:01] take part in this. And the barrier is that most service members don't know that they actually have [13:05] options to not take part in it. [13:06] You mentioned Pete Hexeth, of course, the defense secretary. And he's trying to change [13:12] the ethos of the military. In a 2025 speech, he talked about woke policies that he's fighting [13:18] against. And he wants to move the military towards a strict warrior ethos. [13:23] For too long, we've promoted too many uniform leaders for the wrong reasons, [13:28] based on their race, based on gender quotas, based on historic so-called firsts. We became [13:36] the woke department. How much of a factor is that? [13:39] Yeah, I mean, he's created a strange environment, to say the least. I think that's obviously a part of [13:47] it. You know, people like Hexeth, they have a vision of what the military should look like. It should be an [13:53] organization of hardened killers, you know, I think is the way he likes to present it, [13:58] but also one of men and of white men in particular. I think it is important to point out that this [14:06] anti-DEI, anti-woke military measures, they are targeting women, they're targeting black service [14:13] members in particular. And this is significant because African Americans are disproportionately [14:19] represented in the military compared to the U.S. population. Hexeth has taken kind of, [14:25] there's been this kind of like pretty clearly racist measures, right? Like the banning of black [14:31] history month observation among the military, which had always been a tradition, the banning of black [14:36] student groups at military universities. But I think the single biggest thing is that he is basically [14:43] kicking black men out of the military who have a skin condition that prevents them from shaving, [14:47] that about 45 percent of black service men in the military. And that is a dramatic thing to say, [14:52] you're going to purge, you know, almost half of black men in the military over a thing that post-World [14:58] War II, a change that was made because of the advance of the civil rights struggle and the struggle [15:03] against racism within the military. And so this is an ideology that really goes back to the Civil War. [15:10] The Confederacy was horrified at the fact that black men were allowed to serve in the U.S. military. [15:15] They had a policy of execution or returning them to their former masters if they were captured on [15:21] the battlefield. Post-World War I, black men were targeted and lynched for coming home in their [15:26] military uniforms. It didn't matter that they served their country honorably. What mattered is that black [15:31] men with guns was unacceptable to a certain sector of the white racist population. And that is the same [15:37] line of ideology that is now at the top of the Pentagon. And so when we think about these kind of broader [15:44] geopolitical issues that soldiers are being sent to fight, they're doing it while they're being [15:48] attacked themselves within the military by a government that clearly is against them. [15:54] Hmm. Well, Mike, you know, earlier you talked about the number of calls you get, [15:59] though the volume has increased, might be considered a drop in the bucket compared to those who are [16:04] enlisted. But we know there is a minority then who is vocal, who is noisy, who's loud. You're among them. [16:12] We're seeing that spill out into real life, including these protests that you were a part of in [16:16] Washington, D.C. this week. Capitol Police arrested dozens of vets and military family members [16:31] protesting the U.S. war — the U.S. war on Iran. There's a video of you. Your hands are behind your [16:38] back. You're being taken away, escorted away by an officer. And you are explaining why you're there. [16:44] — This is a war based on lies. This is a war killing innocent people. Get out now. Exercise [16:49] your rights to get out now. — What happened? What do you want people to know? [16:54] — Yeah, well, I was there with about 150 veterans from Vietnam, Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan, [17:00] military families, including people who have loved ones deployed to the Middle East [17:04] right now who are in the combat zone. And we were there to say that we have learned the lessons [17:10] of letting politicians, rich politicians, lie us into wars that once those wars start going badly, [17:16] they don't do the right thing and leave. They continue to sink deeper and deeper into it. [17:21] I know I can speak for all of the other veterans that were there with me that we've lived our lives [17:27] with a lot of regret about the fact that we fell for those lies and didn't exercise our rights to [17:34] refuse to take part in it. And we wanted to build the pressure. The public is against the war, [17:40] but we need to make Congress feel it because they keep approving tens of billions of dollars [17:44] to give to Trump to continue to wage this illegal and immoral war. And so in the Capitol Building [17:49] Rotunda, where the Congress has all of their offices, we were making a lot of noise. And about [17:55] around 70 of us got arrested in a civil disobedience action there. And we were trying to send the [18:00] message to Congress that if you're going to continue to do this war, you know, most of Congress [18:04] supports the war. Most Americans do not. So that's kind of antithetical to democracy. [18:09] And so if they are going to continue to facilitate this war, we're going to continue to make it [18:13] difficult for them. [18:14] Mm-hmm. Well, in the final minute I have with you, Mike, you mentioned you were in the [18:19] military. You were honorably discharged. You served during the Iraq War. Is it possible to have a moral [18:27] army? [18:28] I think in this era of modern warfare, especially waged by aggressor countries like the United States, [18:37] targeting civilian populations is part of that. Occupying civilian populations is part of that. [18:44] I can only speak to the military I was part of, but armies are supposed to be defensive. They're [18:49] supposed to protect your country. The US military doesn't do that. US military goes to other countries [18:55] countries to fight them. And so in that context, I mean, I think, no, I mean, I think that's why [19:01] people who are in the military today have every right to file as a conscientious objector, because [19:05] there is no scenario in which they wouldn't have to be doing something that hurts civilians. And look, [19:11] even if they're hurting combatants, these are people in their own countries who are being attacked [19:16] by us. And there's really no morality in that, what we've seen, especially over the past 25 years. [19:22] Hmm. Mike, thank you for walking us through the work that you do. [19:26] Thank you.