How Trump's Grift Makes Him a Failure: Professor — The Daily Beast Podcast

[0:00] There are fascist elements to this, but they also lack some traits. [0:05] Like fascists, for example, one must say that there are many horrible things involved, [0:10] like aggression and atrocity, but the fascists weren't in it for the money, right? [0:16] They weren't like this. [0:16] And these guys are in it for the money. [0:19] And so it's like they have fascist moments, but they're distracted by the desire to die incredibly rich. [0:25] Welcome to The Daily Beast podcast. [0:29] I'm Hugh Doherty, I'm executive editor of The Daily Beast, and I am in for Joanna Coles. [0:35] And I'm delighted to be because we have an amazing guest today, the historian Timothy Snyder. [0:40] But before we get started, please can I urge you to hit subscribe, join our army of subscribers, [0:45] 654,000 of you and counting. [0:48] Thank you to every one of us. [0:49] Please help us get to 700,000. [0:52] You can also join us as a friend of The Beast. [0:55] We're just $4.99 a month. [0:56] There are amazing benefits. [0:57] There are live streams, exclusive content, even better, a special crown on your profile. [1:01] What more can you ask for? [1:03] We are Independent Media. [1:04] Every bit of your support helps us get guests, like Timothy Snyder. [1:09] He is a renowned historian of authoritarianism. [1:12] He has studied Hitler, Stalin, Putin, huge cast of villains. [1:16] But he is also a believer in America, who has a moral vision of the moment we are in and how we can overcome it. [1:22] He has written two books, which should be on everyone's shelves, on tyranny, which I'm holding up now, and on freedom. [1:29] Welcome, Dr. Snyder. [1:32] Welcome to The Daily Beast podcast. [1:34] Our listeners and viewers have been requesting you for months, maybe years, and it is great to have you with us. [1:41] There's so many things to talk about. [1:43] You have studied tyrants, and you have written about freedom and about tyranny. [1:48] But the thing that has caught my eye recently is you're putting forward a new theory, which you're calling superpower suicide. [1:57] I was wondering if you could explain what you think is happening with the United States, with the United States government. [2:03] What is a superpower suicide? [2:05] Yeah, this came to me because I was meant to give a very serious talk at the Council on Foreign Relations the other day. [2:11] And it was a very serious talk, but as I was preparing with my colleague Anne-Marie Slaughter, I realized that this is what we were really meant to talk about. [2:18] We were meant to talk about just how it is that we're choosing to be so much less powerful than we could be. [2:25] And so a lot of the stuff I talk about is ethical. [2:27] This is not an ethical. [2:28] This is an analytical claim. [2:30] And the analytical surprise is that a great power would do so much so quickly to make itself so much weaker. [2:37] And as a historian, I find that unusual, right? [2:40] There are all kinds of stories about the ends of empire, you know, from the Romans, the Habsburgs, whatever. [2:44] But it's very hard to find tyrants or aspiring tyrants deliberately sabotaging the power of their own country, right? [2:52] And you're obviously referring partly to Iran here and the sequence of events in the Strait of Hormuz and so on. [3:02] But it's more than that. [3:03] Yeah, no, good. [3:04] I mean, that's right. [3:04] That's what prompted the thought because it's not that usual to fight a war for no reasons that you can give, lose the war, and then try to distract everyone with a bunch of genocidal rhetoric about the war. [3:18] That's unusual. [3:19] But I think serious as it is, it's symptomatic of something which goes deeper. [3:24] So what I mean by the superpower of our suicide is that there's a whole combination of things that you can think of as the basis of the power of the state, right? [3:33] Like, A, that there is a state and not just a coterie of oligarchs who are making a bunch of money. [3:38] B, that the state has some kind of ideology, some kind of raison d'être, some kind of reason for being. [3:42] I don't think Trump is giving us anything like that. [3:45] C, that you can have allies. [3:47] I mean, even the most cynical, calculating allies, superpowers in the past or empires in the past, they would change allies, but not for no reason. [3:56] I mean, not because they were annoyed or they got up on the wrong side of the bed or whatever. [3:59] Dealing with your adversaries. [4:01] We can't deal with them. [4:02] We lost the trade war to China, and we're rewarding Russia for who knows what all the time. [4:07] Going on, the fiscal basis of power. [4:09] They have no sense of where they're going to collect taxes. [4:11] They want to keep increasing the defense budget, but they have no notion of where they're going to get taxes. [4:18] They're not even really thinking about it. [4:20] It's completely irresponsible. [4:22] And then another one is energy. [4:24] Like, if you think of the transitions over time, like how powers rise, it has to do with being on the right side of energy technology. [4:29] But instead of being on the right side of the green energy transition, we're choosing to do this archaic thing, this really atavistic thing of just preferring oil and natural gas completely irrationally. [4:41] And at the same time, forcing up oil prices, which would appear to be directly going against what you want to do if you're relying on oil and gas. [4:55] Yeah, I mean, that goes back to point one of like, what is a state, right? [4:59] Because whether you're Clausewitz or whether you're Weber or whatever, you think there's some kind of rationality around the state. [5:04] And the complete inability to think beyond your own whimsy, right? [5:09] Like, I'm going to do this war because it's going to feel good when I do it. [5:12] But not being able to think about the second and third order effects, but also not having bureaucrats or advisors around you who say, you know, Mr. President, there will be second and third order effects. [5:22] Like, that's a sign of the absence of a state, that there aren't those layers. [5:26] There isn't a process which might lead you away from your momentary whimsy. [5:30] And you've studied people who are genuinely tyrants and people who are aspiring tyrants. [5:39] Is there a parallel for this? [5:41] I mean, it doesn't sound like there is. [5:44] Yeah. [5:45] I mean, history is not there because things repeat. [5:47] It's there because there are patterns. [5:49] And it can push our imaginations in various ways to help us see what's going on. [5:54] But I think I agree with you. [5:56] I'm having a hard time with this. [5:57] Like, you can think of them like there are fascist elements to this, but they also lack some traits. [6:05] Like, fascists, for example, I mean, one must say that there are many horrible things involved, like aggression and atrocity. [6:16] But the fascists weren't in it for the money, right? [6:19] They weren't like this. [6:20] It wasn't. [6:20] And these guys are in it for the money. [6:23] And so it's like they have fascist moments, but they're distracted by the desire to, you know, die incredibly rich. [6:29] And fascists understood they needed to win wars, right? [6:33] And whereas these guys don't – I mean, they like to talk about winning, but they don't have the wherewithal to think about what it actually means to win a war. [6:40] So I think fascism comparison helps, but it's like these guys are failed fascists. [6:45] You know, they want somebody else to do the work of fascism for them. [6:50] They want to delegate it, right? [6:51] They want to do the prancing and the preening part, but they don't want to do the other part. [6:55] When you say they, who are we talking about? [6:58] Yeah, I'm talking about Trump and Vance, first of all. [7:00] I mean, the person who matters in the war story and the person who is most responsible for the superpower suicide has got to be Trump himself, right? [7:09] But then there are the people around him. [7:12] In terms of this war, Hegseth, obviously, right? [7:16] I mean, there's somebody who seems to be clearly imprisoned in a set of ideas about how the world works, which are demonstrably false. [7:23] He seems to be, you know, substituting a kind of apocalyptic rhetoric for any kind of real thriving or power of the state that we're talking about. [7:32] And presumably, you spoke also about wealth and presumably talking about Jared Kushner and Steve Wyckoff. [7:39] Why would you, if you are a powerful figure who wants, who aspires towards some sort of single person rule, [7:49] why surround yourself by people who are not good at it? [7:53] I mean, one of the things that strikes me having read, I'm sitting here, I should say for people who are listening, [7:59] but on YouTube, you can see I'm sitting with a copy of On Tyranny in front of me. [8:04] It's a book that's brought immense fascination, comfort to people. [8:09] Perhaps On Freedom has brought more comfort. [8:12] But one of the things that strikes me in reading this and, you know, Bloodlands and other works, [8:18] you know, other parts of your work is these autocrats tend to be surrounded, [8:24] tend to find people who help them do their work for them, [8:27] who are evil, but effective. [8:31] And to what end would you not want that if you are aspiring to being some sort of king emperor? [8:41] That's another great question. [8:42] I've got two kinds of answers. [8:44] The first is going back also and leaning on your previous question about what's different, [8:48] what's the same. [8:50] It is different in the U.S. that we have this ideological tendency, which is so anti-state. [8:57] So it's not that, you know, whether you look at the far left or the far right historically, [9:02] the communists, it's not that they didn't believe in the state. [9:05] It's that they thought that the party should be over the state. [9:07] But there were bureaucrats and they wanted the state to be functional. [9:11] And then likewise with the fascists or the Nazis. [9:14] They wanted to bend the state to their ends, which were- [9:17] Exactly. [9:18] And they succeeded. [9:18] The Holocaust or the conquest of foreign lands. [9:22] But- [9:23] Yeah. [9:23] But they didn't want the state to be weak. [9:24] They didn't want to fire all the bureaucrats. [9:27] They wanted to fire some of them. [9:28] You know, but they wanted to insert their people in critical places. [9:33] But they weren't trying to weaken the state. [9:35] And that's different about the U.S. [9:36] We do have this ideology according to which, you know, liberation just means wrecking the state. [9:41] And for a hundred reasons, that's incorrect. [9:43] But just as a matter of fact, we do. [9:45] And so I think that's part of it. [9:47] You know, the notion that it's somehow liberating and inspiring and even fun to do what Musk was doing [9:53] and do what Vaught is still doing, which is just basically making the American state not work. [9:58] Like putting USAID in the wood chipper or taking a sledgehammer to some other department. [10:04] And that's rhetoric he used, by the way. [10:06] I'm just, you know. [10:06] Yeah. [10:07] Let me tell you about OneSkin. [10:11] They're a skincare company that's serious about science. [10:14] And their OS1 peptide helps target the root causes of skin age. 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[11:17] And then on the practical side, making tons of money for yourself personally is inconsistent with the functioning of the state. [11:27] And so if you're putting, I mean, I don't think it's unfair to say that if you're putting Steve Witkoff or Jared Kushner or Donald Trump for that matter in front of a choice, [11:36] and the choice is you would like to have a thriving American civil service or you would like to have $3 billion. [11:41] I think it's pretty clear, you know, which those men, I think there's a record, let's say, an empirical record about which they would choose. [11:48] And so with Trump, sure, he would like to have lots of power. [11:53] But I think the people who are naturally around him are chaos makers who tend to see the disruption, to use a word they like, as an opportunity to take lots of money. [12:05] Right. And by taking the money, they create further disruption, obviously. [12:10] Yeah. [12:10] But I'm very struck going through, Ontario only gives 20 lessons in a very succinct fashion, which I think is probably why it's brought a measure of comfort to people. [12:22] And one of the things that struck me in one lesson, and I'm going to turn to page 45 for those of you watching, you were talking about Pete Hegseth. [12:30] And one of your licenses, be wary of paramilitaries and the takeover of when the government's monopoly on violence and the party moves and takes over that monopoly. [12:43] One of the things that struck me that you talk about Hegseth and his ideas is, you said, an ideology of exclusion has to be incorporated into the training of armed guards. [12:53] So there has to be a mentality given to people who have the instruments of violence. [12:58] And you say these first challenge the police and the military and then penetrate the police and the military and finally transform the police and the military. [13:05] One of the things that strikes me about Hegseth is that Wyckoff and Kushner and Trump himself have a track record, clearly, of seeking to become richer. [13:15] But Hegseth appears, as you said, to have ideas. [13:20] Is that more dangerous? [13:23] I think that- [13:24] And also he has control of the military to some extent as Secretary of Defense. [13:30] It's, I think there's like, there's a theme in your questions, which is, which is, which underlying theme, which I think is very smart, which is trying to get the malice and the incompetence together. [13:40] And I think there's a tendency, I'm just taking a step back. [13:42] Like there's a tendency in the American conversation to say, well, it's just incompetence. [13:47] Or, you know, for some folks, it's just malice. [13:50] But there's no reason why it can't be both. [13:52] And there's no reason why it can't be both inside a single person. [13:55] Or there's no reason why there couldn't be a kind of, you know, balance of labor between the malice and the incompetence. [14:01] So Hegseth is incompetent as a military planner. [14:06] I've read his books. [14:07] He doesn't know anything about the history of the war. [14:09] He doesn't actually know anything about the execution of war. [14:11] He has notions like that. [14:13] If you just get the black people and the women out of the way, then the smart white guys are going to make the right decisions. [14:18] You suspend or at least loosen rules of engagement is one of his continual. [14:26] Yeah. [14:27] Yeah. [14:27] I mean, completely understand. [14:28] He doesn't understand what rules of engagement are. [14:29] He thinks that the whole, he thinks that war is just, as he put it, when he gathered the high commanders of the U.S. armed forces together foolishly in one room in Virginia. [14:37] He thinks that your job is to kill people and break things. [14:40] But that's not your job. [14:41] Your job is to, your job is to carry out successful operations in the service of tactics, which are part of a larger strategy, which aims to fulfill a policy. [14:49] He doesn't understand any of that. [14:50] Right. [14:51] So he's incompetent. [14:53] But he's also malicious in the sense that he doesn't, and again, this is in his books. [14:57] He doesn't really believe in the Constitution. [14:59] He doesn't really believe in separation of powers. [15:01] He doesn't really believe in the pluralism of religious faith or the absence thereof. [15:04] But he thinks that we ought to be a theocratic state. [15:07] And therefore, it would be right to use the armed services against other Americans because there's a right, from his point of view, what's right is his version of Christianity and his version of who belongs and who doesn't belong. [15:19] I wanted to go through some of the lessons that you draw on on tyranny. [15:23] And just I'm not saying rate one to ten where we are necessarily, but it's very noticeable that among the themes that you that you identify, one of them has become very famous is do not obey in advance. [15:40] The idea of anticipatory obedience, how far along the road do you think we are on that idea? [15:51] Yeah, thanks for that. [15:52] I mean, there's a logic to the book, which is that number one has to be followed or else the rest of them don't make any sense. [15:59] So some of the others you can pick and choose among. [16:01] But if you do obey in advance, then none of the rest of the lessons are going to make sense to you. [16:07] And it's not just a logical point. [16:09] It's a sort of sociological observation. [16:11] Like, I'm around Americans all the time and other folks all the time. [16:14] And you can see when people have normalized, when they have obeyed in advance, when they've decided that, you know, each day the things that happen, I'm going to justify those things. [16:23] You can't really talk to them about further steps of resistance. [16:25] I mean, they might say, I don't like this. [16:27] I'm uncomfortable. [16:28] But none of the further steps of resistance actually make sense to them inside. [16:32] Whereas if you check- [16:33] Because they've already gone in the opposite direction. [16:36] Yeah. [16:36] Their mind is already a normalization engine. [16:39] Like, that's what their mind is fundamentally doing. [16:42] And therefore, if you say, okay, well, if you don't like it, how about joining a protest? [16:45] Like, they'll find some reason why they're not going to do that. [16:47] Whereas if you do follow lesson one, then the whole menu of the rest of them are available to you. [16:52] So I think number one is sort of permanently relevant. [16:57] Whether you're just, you know, want to resist a little bit or whether you want to go into some kind of full-blown opposition, number one is necessary all the time. [17:04] And what I've- I mean, I wrote this book almost 10 years ago now. [17:07] And I was thinking of a certain moment, you know, right after Trump's first election. [17:12] But I realized people come to the idea that they should do something for their own reasons over time. [17:18] And, like, one should respect that. [17:20] And so there's a moment where people realize, oh, okay, I got to start by saying this is not normal. [17:27] And that's where Don't Pay in Advance comes in. [17:29] So we actually, we sometimes see, finally now, Trump voters saying, well, I didn't realize this was what was happening. [17:40] How do you get, how do you, how do you address those sort of, that sort of person who voted for Trump and is now, there's an example this morning. [17:49] Women told the, in Colorado, a retired Air Force captain told the Associated Press that she had voted for him each time and now felt that he was a wolf in sheep's clothing. [17:58] And that it was like, I think her quote was, voting for the president of the school council because you were going to get free pizza. [18:07] And, in fact, there was no free pizza. [18:11] I suppose most people would say, hmm, you probably guessed. [18:14] But how do you, how do you, we've obviously, he's at a low point in the polls. [18:18] There are clear signs of unpopularity. [18:20] And I want to talk about a couple of those. [18:22] But how do you give that message about, these are people who did obey. [18:26] How do you get to them now? [18:29] I'm stuck in the pizza analogy because I'm thinking, like, it's not that he didn't bring the pizza. [18:33] It's that the pizza delivery guy was actually a robber and, like, you know, broke into your house and took your family jewels. [18:38] That's the analogy, right? [18:40] You thought you were ordering pizza. [18:41] But, in fact, you know, a guy named Don came to your house and took all your stuff and laughed at you. [18:46] That's what happened. [18:48] Yeah, I mean. [18:49] And then demanded five stars on Yelp. [18:54] Right on. [18:55] Of the, I think, so Americans, I mean, we're, like, lovable in many ways. [19:07] But we don't really have a sense of time. [19:09] Like, we don't remember things very well. [19:11] And I think the dominant way, you know, in the U.S. is not to say to people, or the effective way is not to say, like, you know, two years ago you did this and three years. [19:19] Because, you know, people do change their minds a lot in this country. [19:22] And I think the most important thing is to, like, figure out what it was that changed their mind and then talk about that with other folks. [19:31] Because, you know, like, that road to Damascus or whatever, you know, like, what is it? [19:37] What was that? [19:37] I find that interesting. [19:38] Like, what was the thing? [19:40] And then that thing maybe can help you talk to other people who might be on the verge of a similar kind of change of mind. [19:48] But, I mean, you're probably going to get to this, but in terms of the practical politics of it, it's pretty important to have that set of people and to give that set of people a chance to speak. [20:02] Well, one of the practical politics I wanted to talk to you about, actually, was we were recording this the day after Virginia voted very marginally, but still voted for a midterm redistricting, [20:15] which will, if it goes past their Supreme Court and people vote in line with broad expectations, is likely to transform it into having one single Republican member of Congress as opposed to the six, the five it currently has. [20:31] And there appear to be tides of popular opinion that are moving against Trump and against MAGA. [20:39] There is, you know, there's endless polling about the possibility of a wave election. [20:48] The Senate may be in play. [20:50] What's that doing in the mind of the... [20:53] First of all, what's that doing in people's minds? [20:56] Does that give people permission to rethink where they are? [21:01] That's really interesting. [21:02] I think the answer is yes. [21:03] I think clearly the answer is yes. [21:05] I do feel like that there's a moment where, you know, the ice breaks a little bit and there's still big chunks of ice, you know, in the flow. [21:13] But, like, people are wobbling a little bit and looking around. [21:18] I think we're definitely in that kind of a moment. [21:21] I think it's very important if you have been in the opposition of any sort to the president not to just watch this moment but to take advantage of it, [21:30] to do more talking, to do more protesting, to try to push things along. [21:35] I worry a little bit about folks on the Democratic side who still believe in some kind of determinism, you know, like they won last time, [21:43] so we're going to win this time, and look at the polls, and things have to follow the polls. [21:47] I'm deeply convinced that this election has to be not just a victory and not just a big victory, [21:51] but a big victory which is won for unconventional reasons as well as conventional ones. [21:57] That if we just go into this election saying, well, look, we're going to win on affordability, [22:01] I think that's going to be very bad for the republic, honestly. [22:03] I think that if you have to say we won not just because of affordability but because people connected affordability to abuse of power, [22:11] and they connected abuse of power to the attempt to get rid of our democracy. [22:15] Because if you have that kind of logic, then you have a legitimation to go after bigger things after November, [22:22] which I think we have to do. [22:23] And those are, what do you mean by bigger things? [22:26] You mean criminal investigations? [22:29] Yeah, absolutely. [22:29] And I think that has to be part of the campaign. [22:31] That's another thing which worries us, which you haven't asked about Hungary, I bet you're going to. [22:34] Well, you exactly anticipated where I was going, yes. [22:40] Let's face it, after a night of drinks, it can be hard to bounce back. [22:45] But that's where Z-Biotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink comes in. [22:50] Z-Biotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is a genetically engineered probiotic invented by PhD scientists. [22:57] Here's how it works. [22:58] When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. [23:03] It's a buildup of this byproduct more than dehydration that's to blame for rough days after drinking. [23:09] From the fairways in Augusta to the first pitch of baseball season [23:13] and the start of festival circuits, April is a sprint of outdoor celebrations. [23:18] So don't let a rough next day keep you on the sidelines. [23:22] Drink pre-alcohol to stay ahead of the game and make the most of every sunny Saturday. [23:28] Go to zbiotics.com slash dailybeast to learn more and get 15% off your first order [23:34] when you use Daily Beast at checkout. [23:37] Z-Biotics is backed with a 100% money-back guarantee. [23:41] So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. [23:45] No questions asked. [23:46] So remember to head to zbiotics.com slash dailybeast and use the code dailybeast at checkout for 15% off. [23:54] Yeah, and there are many interesting lessons to draw from the success of Magyar in Hungary and the defeat of Orban. [24:03] But one of them is that he completely unashamedly and without reservation the entire time talked about the law [24:08] and the rule of law and the need for people to be punished if they broke the law, right? [24:13] So it's not retribution. [24:14] It's about the restoration of the rule of law. [24:17] And I think a lot of Democrats are a bit shy about that. [24:20] And I think there's a certain hope that like history will just take its course [24:24] and the people who did bad things will kind of fade away into the background. [24:26] But they didn't last time. [24:28] They did not fade away into the background last time. [24:29] You know, all the people who invaded the Capitol were pardoned. [24:33] They went on to commit other crimes. [24:34] They're still doing terrible things. [24:36] There are regular new crimes committed. [24:40] It's almost a trope of... [24:42] Yeah, it's like a beat on its own. [24:43] Like you'd be a reporter and that could just be your beat, you know? [24:45] And then, you know, Trump seems to be president again. [24:48] So like the history didn't take its course. [24:51] And I think there has to be a certain amount of willingness to say, [24:54] look, people, if you do try to rig it in November, [24:57] there are going to be consequences for you. [24:59] You know, it may be in January the next year, [25:01] but eventually if you break these laws, there are going to be consequences for you. [25:04] Partly because it's the right thing to do. [25:06] Partly to deter, right? [25:08] And partly to show that you're confident. [25:10] Because if you're unwilling to say that the law of the land applies in your land [25:15] when you're about to win a big election, [25:16] then you don't really look like you're very confident. [25:19] Right. [25:20] One of the things that Orban's victory... [25:23] Sorry, Orban's defeat, rather, was held up by people on the right. [25:27] And they said, guys like you, and I think quite often named you, actually, [25:32] said they said that Orban was a tyrant, [25:34] but he's accepted that he has lost. [25:38] That seemed to be a sort of coping mechanism, first of all. [25:43] But how do you deal with that sort of thinking, [25:47] that people find a way to excuse what was undoubtedly a regime [25:54] that attempted to take sole power? [25:57] Yeah. [25:57] I mean, I think pretty much every... [25:59] Well, okay. [25:59] I'm not sure who is saying that, but people on the right... [26:02] The permanently online right, I think, is how I would put it. [26:05] Yeah, yeah. [26:05] Yes. [26:05] So I mean, okay, so I'm not sure I can... [26:09] I will say what I think. [26:10] I'm not sure it's going to be found convincing, [26:11] because I think, as you say, that is a rationalization, right? [26:14] So Orban losing has a moral and psychological significance [26:19] to people who are on the far right, [26:21] to an extent which I think it's hard for other folks to understand, [26:24] because we, people on the center or on the left, [26:28] tend to be much more... [26:29] It's weird, but it's true. [26:30] Much more America-oriented to the point of being provincial, [26:33] whereas folks on the far right are living [26:35] in a much more cosmopolitan or, to use their word, [26:38] globalist setup, where all the memes... [26:41] This is like Bannon having his training school in Rome [26:44] and the kind of procession of foreign figures. [26:49] I'm not quite sure what to call them, to Mar-a-Lago. [26:51] Yeah. [26:52] I mean, so they're in this cosmopolitan thing [26:54] where none of their memes are American. [26:56] Like, all their memes are borrowed. [26:57] They're all workshopped on a boat, you know, [26:59] somewhere in the Mediterranean, right? [27:01] And their money comes from Russia, [27:03] or a lot of it came from Russia, via Budapest. [27:06] So whether they realize it or not, [27:08] and some of them do and some of them don't, [27:09] they're in this kind of... [27:10] You know, it's not American. [27:12] They're in this, like, transatlantic soup [27:14] of memes and money and networks, [27:17] where Orban was the center of all of that, right? [27:21] And so some of these folks may not know why they're hurt, [27:24] but they are hurt. [27:25] And some of them do know why they're hurt, [27:27] but they're hurt. [27:27] And so then, obviously, when you're hurt, [27:29] you're going to come up with something. [27:30] I'm like, well, I didn't really care about Orban, [27:32] you know, which is what both Putin and Trump basically said. [27:34] Like, we care a lot, we care a lot, we care a lot. [27:37] Oh, actually, he was never that. [27:38] Yes. [27:38] I never really loved you, you know, [27:40] like that sort of thing, right? [27:41] Like, that's basically where... [27:43] So there's a psychological dynamic here, [27:44] which I don't think I can maybe break through to. [27:47] But for folks who are being serious about this, [27:50] about the politics of this, [27:51] the lesson is there is a thing called... [27:54] And the political scientists have a good term for this, [27:56] which is competitive authoritarianism. [27:58] Steve Levitsky and Luke and Wei have a good article about this. [28:01] There is a thing which is called competitive authoritarianism, [28:03] in which the authoritarian stereotypically controls the media, [28:07] gerrymanders, has more dark money on his side, [28:10] gets the foreign potentates to come, [28:12] you know, like Vance did, [28:13] gets the foreign grifters to come [28:15] and support his own grip. [28:17] So where you're going uphill, [28:19] and you are going uphill, [28:20] but you can still win. [28:22] And that's the thing to understand. [28:23] So we are also in competitive authoritarianism. [28:25] It's not as bad as Hungary, [28:27] but that's clearly where we are. [28:28] The media is unfair. [28:29] The media landscape is wildly unfair to the opposition. [28:33] They do try to intimidate political opponents. [28:35] They do have more dark money on their side, etc. [28:37] But you can still win. [28:40] And that's the big lesson. [28:41] Like the thing that demoralizes... [28:43] The thing that demoralizes a Vance or a Trump [28:46] should also be the thing that energizes you [28:48] if you want them to lose, [28:49] because this is another historical example [28:51] of how competitive authoritarianism can in fact fall. [28:54] But it doesn't fall... [28:55] And this is where it goes back to about the Democrats. [28:57] It doesn't fall just because you're leading in the polls. [28:59] And it doesn't fall just because you... [29:01] I mean, to use a phrase which I hear a lot and I don't like, [29:03] it doesn't fall because you get through to November, [29:06] because like you twiddle your thumbs and just imagine. [29:08] It falls because you organize locally. [29:12] You have protests. [29:13] You get people to believe that their vote [29:15] is some kind of meaningful transformation [29:17] or part of a meaningful transformation. [29:18] And then you win so big. [29:21] And this is crucial. [29:21] You win so big that... [29:24] And you've already demonstrated mobilization potential [29:27] such that an Orban who, of course, [29:30] was thinking about various stunts to stay in power [29:32] is deterred from doing so. [29:34] So putting that in American terms, [29:39] what do people need to do now [29:42] if they want to see that similar scenario play out in November, [29:47] which, of course, would not be a change of presidency, [29:49] but would be a change of the House and the Senate? [29:52] What are the practical things? [29:53] If you're watching this, [29:54] if you're watching this, [29:55] I was going to say at home, wherever you are, [29:57] what should you be doing? [29:59] Do you talk to your neighbors? [30:01] Do you try and find disillusioned Trump voters? [30:05] What practical steps should you be taking? [30:09] Yeah, well, number one, vote. [30:12] Number two, take part in voter registration efforts. [30:15] Number three, take part in get out the vote efforts. [30:17] Number four, find the local NGOs in your state [30:20] that are working on get out the vote. [30:22] That's really important. [30:23] Number five, if you're going to be a donor, [30:26] look for elections that are close around the country, [30:29] especially in purple states. [30:31] Look at organizations like NOPE [30:33] that have chosen candidates and local organizing groups. [30:36] And if you have a little bit of money, [30:37] support those marginal seats. [30:39] That's all on the voting side. [30:41] And then there's the protest side. [30:42] If there is a protest and you agree [30:44] or it overlaps with your views in any way, [30:47] go protest because it activates other people. [30:51] It helps shift overall public opinion. [30:54] It helps to break that ice a little bit more. [30:55] But also the possibility of mobilization [30:58] is necessary for our conditions [31:01] to be sure that a democratic election [31:02] will go all the way through. [31:04] So like if you're in doubt about whether, [31:06] like if you're in your region, [31:07] there's something going on on May 1st [31:09] and it overlaps your views, [31:10] like do that thing. [31:11] If there will be another big no kings protest [31:13] between now and the election, [31:14] take part in it. [31:16] And also, this is really important. [31:18] The unsung heroes in this whole story, [31:20] we talk about voting and we talk about, [31:22] and if you kind of force us, [31:23] we'll talk about protests, [31:24] but what we don't talk about is local organizers, [31:27] like your local Indivisible chapter [31:28] or your local 50-51 chapter [31:30] or your local chapter of whatever it is [31:31] that overlaps with your views. [31:33] Find out what that is and where it is [31:34] and just do something between now and November. [31:36] It strikes me that one of the ways you're seeing this [31:39] is you're normalizing that people go in protests, [31:44] that there's a sense that there's a presence [31:48] of people who oppose Trump. [31:49] It's kind of like the flip side of the MAGA movement [31:53] and it's red caps [31:54] and it's ubiquitous presence in some places. [31:57] You know, everybody I think has been to, [32:00] we're sitting here in New York. [32:04] Not surprisingly, there's not many MAGA flags around, [32:07] but go elsewhere in the country [32:09] and they're very visible and present. [32:11] And it struck me that one of the analogies [32:14] that you draw is to the Czechoslovakian shopkeeper [32:18] who just puts up the sign of fealty to the supreme leader [32:22] and it just becomes normal. [32:25] Yeah. [32:25] So you're trying to do the opposite. [32:28] Yeah. [32:28] I think, I mean, you're referring to Havel's essay, [32:31] The Power of the Powerless, [32:32] which is something I teach and have taught for decades [32:36] and which popped up in the Canadian Prime Minister [32:39] Carney's speech at Davos. [32:41] And it's having a kind of revival, [32:43] which I have to say I'm really happy to see. [32:45] Havel talks about the panorama, [32:47] talks about the overall panorama. [32:48] Like what do you see, [32:50] what do you half consciously take in [32:51] when you're walking down the street, [32:53] whether it's in New York [32:54] or whether it's in Georgia or somewhere else. [32:57] And that really does matter. [32:58] Like as we, the political being, [33:00] I mean, we're not just rational political beings [33:02] who are thinking about gas prices or whatever. [33:04] We are also people who are taking stock [33:07] of what other people are doing. [33:09] The way we function is that we take in these, [33:11] like we can take in the pulse [33:13] of what's happening around us. [33:14] And so you have to be part of that pulse. [33:15] Like if you believe that something is off [33:17] and that something needs to be changed, [33:18] you have to show that a little bit. [33:20] And it is like, [33:21] it's a disheartening thing about the US [33:23] in the last couple of years, [33:25] which has to change. [33:26] There was so much voluntary taking down of signs [33:28] and so much voluntary taking down of banners [33:30] and so much like people who had signs on their yards [33:33] that said something often that we went down. [33:35] Universities, a lot of this stuff, [33:37] like the things that people might've believed in, [33:39] like toleration or justice or whatever, [33:41] they took, the signs went down. [33:43] So that's visible, right? [33:45] And it's visible, [33:46] like if you leave the US [33:47] and go to another country and come back, [33:48] it's like one of the things you notice, [33:50] like where did all that stuff go, right? [33:51] And I'm not saying it has to be the same stuff [33:53] where we have to replay, [33:54] you know, the first half of the 2020s again. [33:56] I'm just saying it has to be something. [33:58] One thing I was struck by recently was Georgia, [34:00] where the vice president [34:02] had a Turning Point USA rally. [34:05] And I mean, as far as I could tell [34:06] from the photos of the basketball arena, [34:08] he had about 2,500 people there. [34:10] Yeah, and there's an academic [34:11] from the University of Georgia [34:13] who says he did a pretty robust count [34:15] and that's exactly the number. [34:16] Oh, okay, that's great, sure. [34:17] He came up with just above 2,000. [34:20] And I think the capacity is 10 to 12, I think. [34:24] It's, you know, a normal college basketball arena [34:28] or a big college basketball arena, obviously. [34:31] Yeah, and the point, [34:32] so whereas the No Kings rally in Athens, Georgia [34:35] was 4,000 plus. [34:36] And so it matters that there was that No Kings rally. [34:39] I mean, not just so I can say [34:40] that it was twice as big as the Vance rally, [34:42] but because people in Athens, Georgia [34:44] are going to notice that. [34:45] They're going to notice those things. [34:47] One of the things that's been said about No Kings, [34:49] and again, this was, you know, [34:51] I follow the online right. [34:52] It turns out I hadn't quite realized [34:55] until we were talking how much I follow it, but... [34:58] I'm glad I've been helpful. [35:00] Yes, it's always good to learn something. [35:03] Maybe I need to change my habits here, [35:05] but one of the things in the online right was, [35:08] oh, everybody in the No Kings, [35:09] oh, look, they're all old. [35:10] Oh, where, you know, where is Gen Z? [35:14] Where are the millennials? [35:15] And, oh, it's so white. [35:17] And it struck me that the number matters clearly, [35:22] but also I would imagine getting a cross-section of humanity. [35:29] Yeah. [35:29] I mean, so the first thing I'm going to say is that, [35:32] and you know this, but it's really important. [35:34] The only way you get to that number, [35:36] you know, let's say eight and a half million, [35:38] is by having thousands and thousands of local organizers. [35:41] And I'm going to stress there again, [35:42] they're the unsung heroes and heroines of this whole story. [35:45] Like when we're in New York or in Washington, [35:47] you know, we tend to think, okay, there's voting, [35:50] and then there's like, oh, there's a protest. [35:52] Let's report out for one day. [35:53] But in order to make those protests happen, [35:55] those organizers have to work for weeks and months ahead of time. [35:58] And it's the same people who do the protests. [36:01] It's the same people who are doing voter registration [36:03] and get out the vote and protecting immigrants [36:05] and all the other local civil society stuff. [36:08] And then in addition to that, [36:09] they're also taking on their shoulders these big protests. [36:12] And so one of the things that protests allow us to do [36:14] is they allow us to say, at least to notice, [36:17] although the press doesn't always do this, [36:19] to notice that there is this whole layer of American civil society [36:22] which is already at work. [36:23] And those folks who are at work, [36:25] I can assure you, are quite diverse. [36:27] And they trend very young. [36:31] So like if I go, like I went to Cincinnati last time for No Kings, [36:34] and the organizers were, I mean, [36:37] I won't say this to flatter them, [36:38] but they were a lot younger than, you know, a lot younger. [36:41] I should have been a lot younger. [36:43] Somewhat younger. [36:45] Yeah. [36:45] I mean, a lot younger than, you know, me or you. [36:47] And so there's that which is important. [36:49] And so I just, and the second thing is with, [36:53] it is actually important that a ton of people show up [36:56] no matter what they look like, right? [36:57] So no matter what the composition is, [36:59] you can always say, oh, too old, too young, [37:00] too, you know, too black, too white, whatever. [37:02] Whatever, whatever, like if it was too black, [37:05] assure me, I can assure you that the right [37:07] would also have objections to that. [37:08] Sure. [37:08] So the idea that the online right is like seriously concerned [37:11] that like suddenly there's concern that there's true [37:13] that white people are represented in something. [37:15] I mean, that seems to be, you know, an insincere thing. [37:17] And also going back to Hungary. [37:18] I think you've rumbled them. [37:20] Going back to Hungary, I think it's also psychological. [37:23] Yeah. [37:23] Because they, I mean, the entire Tea Party movement, [37:29] the entirety, all of the protests that took place [37:31] and the entire Tea Party movement [37:33] would fit into one Philadelphia No Kings protest, right? [37:36] So it's not comfortable for them that they don't have this [37:40] and that the other side does. [37:42] And so they're going to be looking for stuff like this. [37:44] But on, but like bracketing where it's coming from [37:46] and now talking about the demographic constitution [37:48] of the thing, I think it's great whoever comes, right? [37:50] So if it's a lot of white people, I think great. [37:53] Because, you know, the last time civil rights, [37:55] there could have been more white people [37:56] involved in civil rights. [37:57] So if like white people want to come out [37:58] for voting and justice, good. [38:01] You do that white people, right? [38:02] That's, you do that. [38:04] And then if other folks, [38:06] like if African-Americans then understandably [38:10] take a moment to say, [38:11] huh, is this actually so serious? [38:12] And then come along later. [38:13] That's great. [38:14] Whenever they come along, they come along. [38:15] That's absolutely terrific. [38:17] So I would say that from inside, [38:18] like when I look around it from the inside, [38:19] I see much more diversity than perhaps is claimed. [38:23] But whatever it is, it's great that people show up. [38:27] And if some people show up, [38:28] that actually makes it more likely [38:30] that other people show up. [38:31] One of the things about No Kings was, [38:33] it was very obvious [38:35] that people were bringing American flags [38:37] and trying to take back [38:39] that sort of symbolism. [38:43] And one of the things you talk about [38:44] is language and the use of language [38:46] under tyrannical regimes, [38:49] under aspiring tyrannical regimes. [38:51] And, you know, [38:52] Trump has tried to capture the word patriot. [38:55] He's tried to capture the term of un-American. [38:58] How do people get that back? [39:00] Yeah, that's a great question. [39:02] And I think it is essential [39:03] because this is national level politics, right? [39:07] I mean, it's perfectly legitimate [39:08] to care about other countries [39:09] and it's perfectly legitimate [39:10] to have concerns of other parts of the world. [39:13] But, you know, [39:15] congressional election, presidential election, [39:17] these are national politics. [39:19] And Trump is a particularly American figure [39:21] who doesn't actually play [39:22] in the rest of the world very well. [39:23] And so these are our problems. [39:25] And so we need to be framing them [39:26] within the United States. [39:28] And that means using American symbolism. [39:31] And it has, I mean, [39:32] speaking of things shifting, right? [39:33] Like on the right, [39:35] they use various kinds of flags. [39:37] I mean, I find this like, [39:38] I mean, as an American, [39:40] like as a Boy Scout, [39:41] like in all kinds of things, [39:42] I find it troubling [39:43] when people change [39:44] what the American flag looks like [39:45] and like change the number, [39:46] change the stripes. [39:47] Or I find that troubling, [39:49] like just as an American. [39:51] And I like it as an American [39:52] when people show the flag [39:55] in the sense of, [39:55] I'm trying to give this flag [39:57] some positive meaning, you know? [39:58] Like I'm trying to, [39:59] because this is at the end of Ontario [40:01] where I make the distinction [40:01] between nationalism and patriotism. [40:03] And by patriotism, [40:04] I mean loving your country [40:05] in the sense of wanting [40:06] to be its best self, right? [40:07] I think that's something, [40:09] I mean, I don't want to speak [40:10] for everybody. [40:10] There are a lot of people with flags, [40:11] but I think it's something like that [40:13] when people take a flag to a protest [40:14] that I want this country, [40:15] the country is not its best self right now, [40:17] but I want it to be its best self. [40:20] As far as taking it back, [40:21] I mean, I'm not a great tactician [40:23] about this stuff. [40:24] There is something [40:24] that we've already talked about [40:25] which is really striking [40:26] and I wish would penetrate a bit more, [40:29] which is that the coterie of oligarchs [40:31] who provide Trump, [40:34] who are Trump's everyday psychological, [40:37] social, epistemic environment, [40:40] that coterie of oligarchs [40:41] and wannabe oligarchs [40:42] are people who have interests [40:44] all around the world [40:45] and a number of them [40:46] are just simply not American at all. [40:48] I mean, that's a criticism, [40:49] like you're not American enough. [40:50] I mean, Vladimir Putin is not an American [40:52] and it's not clear [40:53] that there's anybody [40:53] who's more important [40:54] to Mr. Trump's inner world [40:56] than Vladimir Putin. [40:57] And I think the fact that, [40:59] you know, that, [41:00] and I think it is breaking. [41:02] Like, I think people do realize [41:03] that just literally [41:04] wrapping yourself in the flag [41:06] doesn't mean that you're concerned. [41:08] Like, you can overplay [41:09] that symbolic stuff [41:10] and I think Trump [41:11] may be overplaying it [41:12] and the shift that he's made, [41:14] you know, [41:14] from wrapping himself in the flag [41:16] to wrapping himself [41:17] in Jesus's wardrobe, [41:18] you know, [41:19] may be a sign [41:20] that he's like trying [41:21] to move on to something else [41:22] in which he equally [41:24] doesn't believe, right? [41:25] Like, he doesn't, [41:26] like, he doesn't believe, [41:27] he doesn't believe in America. [41:28] Like, America's just a scam to him. [41:29] Of course, he also doesn't believe [41:30] in Christianity. [41:31] It's another scam for him. [41:32] But it's interesting [41:33] that he's moving on [41:34] from one scam to another one. [41:36] So there's going to be [41:37] a big, big event this weekend [41:38] and it's going to be [41:40] the White House [41:41] Correspondents Association's dinner. [41:44] And I raise this not because, [41:46] you know, [41:47] the media can be obsessed [41:48] by the media, [41:49] but it's actually going to be [41:50] quite a rare moment [41:50] that, first of all, [41:52] Donald Trump has never [41:52] gone to this thing, [41:53] which has become part [41:55] of the national conversation [41:56] over the years. [41:57] It used to be a very, [41:59] you know, [42:00] low-key event [42:01] that presidents came to [42:02] and nobody was very interested. [42:03] It then went showbiz [42:04] and now it's become [42:05] a kind of moment. [42:07] What's your advice? [42:08] I'm just saying, [42:09] full disclosure, [42:10] the Daily Beast will be there, [42:11] I will be there, [42:12] but what's your advice? [42:13] Should we have gone [42:14] and now that we're going, [42:16] what should we do? [42:17] And what are the, [42:18] what are the, [42:18] what's the sort of, [42:22] what's, [42:23] are we anticipating, [42:25] are we being in advance [42:26] by being there [42:27] or is this an opportunity [42:29] to show that Donald Trump [42:32] is not the tyrant [42:33] that the voice of the people is? [42:36] And I know this is a very [42:36] complicated moral question [42:38] because I'll just be honest, [42:39] I think all of us [42:40] at the Daily Beast [42:41] who are going [42:41] have wrestled with it. [42:43] Okay, [42:45] I'm going to confess [42:45] I hadn't actually thought about it [42:47] and it wasn't like that, [42:48] it's not central to my world. [42:49] No, I don't think, [42:50] I would not anticipate [42:51] that it's top of your mind. [42:54] So I'm going to say [42:54] something general [42:55] and maybe I'll get around to say something. [42:56] But I think that, [42:57] just to perhaps frame it [42:58] in context, [42:59] it's kind of a dilemma [43:00] that a lot of people [43:01] find themselves in generally [43:03] of how do they, [43:05] how do they talk [43:06] to their Trumpy neighbor [43:07] at the most basic level [43:09] or when they are working for, [43:12] maybe they work [43:12] for a police department, [43:13] maybe they work [43:14] for part of [43:16] the federal government, [43:17] how do they engage? [43:19] What's the path forward? [43:21] How should we frame [43:23] that ethical thinking [43:24] that is so central [43:25] to your work? [43:26] Well, I think, [43:27] I mean, [43:27] I'm not sure how [43:28] that's the same question, [43:29] honestly, [43:29] but the answer to that question, [43:30] I think, [43:30] is that you talk about [43:31] the things that you care about, [43:32] that you're really personally, [43:33] that you personally care about, [43:34] policy issues that you care about. [43:36] So if you care about [43:36] having hospitals nearby [43:37] and your kid couldn't get [43:39] to a hospital nearby, [43:40] you talk about that, [43:41] right? [43:41] And you don't not talk [43:43] about the things [43:43] that you care about [43:44] and you talk about them [43:44] in a human way [43:45] where somebody [43:46] whose political beliefs [43:46] might be different than yours, [43:47] they would still kind of agree [43:48] that when your kid's leg is broken, [43:50] you should be able [43:50] to see a doctor. [43:51] And that, [43:52] I think that's the thing. [43:53] Like, [43:53] if you really care about it, [43:55] if it connects to you [43:56] and it has something [43:56] to do with policy, [43:57] you do talk to your neighbor [43:58] about it, [43:58] even if you know [43:59] that they voted for Trump. [44:00] You don't stop doing that. [44:01] You don't self-censor. [44:02] With like a dinner like this, [44:04] where I take it, [44:05] you know, [44:05] you and your colleagues [44:06] will be seated in silence [44:07] the whole time [44:07] and not really have [44:08] any opportunity [44:09] to interact with anybody, [44:10] except... [44:10] That appears to be... [44:11] And you'll be asked, [44:12] you know, [44:12] essentially, [44:12] it's, [44:12] correct me, [44:14] but like, [44:14] it's just a matter [44:14] of whether you clap [44:15] or don't clap. [44:16] Is that kind of what it's down to? [44:17] I think that's probably, [44:18] that's probably the case, yeah. [44:19] Yeah, yeah. [44:20] So there, [44:20] I don't see how there's [44:21] like an opportunity [44:21] to engage particularly [44:23] with anybody. [44:23] You won't be engaging [44:24] with Trump. [44:25] So I'm not sure [44:25] how it's the same question. [44:27] I mean, [44:27] I don't think I would have gone, [44:29] but like I haven't... [44:30] All these things hang on [44:32] whether you have an opportunity [44:33] to engage or not, right? [44:35] And so maybe as a journalist, [44:36] your opportunity to engage [44:37] is afterward [44:38] when you write something, right? [44:41] So in that, [44:41] there might be a justification [44:42] for that. [44:43] There's always a justification [44:44] for reporters to go places [44:45] where people don't want them to go [44:47] if they're actually reporting. [44:49] Right. [44:50] And I'll just say [44:50] that's exactly our intention. [44:53] We will be there. [44:54] We will be telling it [44:55] to the Daily Beast readers [44:56] and viewers [44:57] and telling them what we saw [44:59] and what we didn't see. [45:00] And that's very much [45:01] our intention. [45:02] Yeah. [45:03] The general thing [45:03] I wanted to say about this [45:04] is that I, [45:06] I mean, [45:06] you guys aren't, [45:07] you guys aren't bad [45:07] about it in this way, [45:08] but like I generally, [45:09] I think we write too much [45:11] about Trump [45:11] and not enough [45:13] about other people. [45:15] And I give a German, [45:16] I give an interview [45:17] to a terrific German newspaper [45:18] the other day [45:19] and there were 13 questions [45:20] and the first 12 [45:20] were about Trump [45:21] and I said, [45:21] okay guys, [45:22] there's something [45:23] basically wrong [45:24] about the way [45:25] you're interviewing me here. [45:26] Like there's, [45:27] and there's, [45:27] because in, [45:29] you are helping [45:30] to keep him in the center. [45:32] This is my answer. [45:32] Like they asked [45:33] the 13th question [45:34] which was about Trump [45:34] and I just answered it this way. [45:36] That in fact, [45:37] Trump is quite weak [45:38] in many ways. [45:39] He's not just, [45:40] he's flawed [45:40] and we could criticize him. [45:41] He's also weak [45:42] in many ways [45:43] but what he's good at [45:44] is staying in the center [45:45] of attention [45:45] and one has to be [45:47] very careful in the media [45:48] that one isn't, [45:49] you know, [45:50] doesn't become [45:51] his accomplice [45:51] in all of that. [45:53] Especially going back [45:54] to your earlier questions [45:54] right now [45:55] when I think [45:56] the real story [45:56] has to do [45:57] not only with [45:59] what is wrong with him [46:01] but what is not working [46:02] in his milieu, [46:03] among his voters, [46:04] in his policies, [46:05] et cetera. [46:06] Which kind of takes us back [46:07] to the suicide [46:08] of the superpower [46:08] that part of it [46:11] is the weakness [46:12] of the leader [46:12] is one of the things [46:14] that kind of [46:16] seems to set [46:18] this moment apart. [46:19] Yeah. [46:20] I think that's, [46:21] I'm trying to think, [46:21] I've been trying to find [46:22] the right way to say this [46:22] because it's not just [46:23] that Trump is weak [46:24] as a leader, [46:25] it's that he solicits [46:28] the weakness of others. [46:30] Right. [46:30] He turns other, [46:31] he makes people [46:32] around him weak [46:33] and so the consequences [46:35] that whether you agree [46:37] or disagree [46:37] with the policy goals [46:39] or think they exist, [46:40] you don't actually [46:41] have people around [46:42] Mr. Trump [46:43] who are obstinate, [46:45] who are stubborn, [46:45] who are determined, [46:47] who are thick-skinned, [46:48] who are patient, [46:50] right? [46:50] That doesn't exist. [46:52] What you have [46:53] is people who are compliant, [46:55] who are used to changing. [46:57] Like so, [46:57] if you can change [46:58] your entire view [46:59] 180 degrees [47:01] because Trump has a mood, [47:02] well, [47:02] you will also change [47:03] your view 180 degrees [47:04] when the Ayatollahs [47:05] have a mood [47:05] or when Putin has a mood, [47:07] because you're just [47:08] not in a world [47:09] where if Trump bends [47:12] because the Iranians [47:13] have him over their knee, [47:14] which they do, [47:15] you're going to bend too, [47:16] right? [47:16] I mean, [47:17] you'll find some way [47:18] to comfort yourself [47:19] and you'll say [47:19] some wild thing [47:20] to the press, [47:21] but you're going to bend too [47:23] and that's what they do, [47:23] they bend. [47:25] Dr. Snyder, [47:26] there's been [47:26] a fascinating conversation. [47:29] One final question [47:30] and I'm trying [47:32] not to ask it [47:33] about Trump [47:33] because you're right, [47:34] but in some... [47:36] I got you boxed in. [47:37] In some... [47:38] Well, yes, [47:38] never take on [47:40] somebody with more PhDs, [47:42] but what... [47:44] I'm asked [47:45] what should you say [47:46] to your neighbour [47:47] if you are one-on-one, [47:48] not with your neighbour, [47:49] but with a really [47:50] significant [47:51] and senior person, [47:53] Trump, [47:54] Stephen Miller, [47:55] J.D. Vance, [47:56] what is the thing [47:57] that would allow you [47:58] to elicit [47:59] some sort of change [48:00] among those sort of people? [48:03] Yeah. [48:04] So I'm not going [48:05] to dodge it, [48:06] but there's going [48:06] to be a preface, [48:07] which is that [48:08] I think there's a reason [48:09] why those conversations [48:10] are impossible [48:10] and the reason [48:11] is that the... [48:13] I would talk to... [48:14] I mean, [48:14] not that... [48:15] I would talk to them, [48:16] I would talk to Joe Rogan. [48:17] There are very few people [48:17] I wouldn't talk to, [48:19] but there's a reason [48:20] why those conversations [48:21] don't happen, [48:22] which is that they're afraid. [48:23] They are afraid [48:24] to have those conversations [48:25] in public, [48:25] they're afraid [48:26] to have those conversations [48:26] in private, [48:28] right, [48:28] with people like... [48:29] Not just me, [48:29] but with people like me, [48:30] with people who are articulate, [48:31] who clearly care about [48:32] the future [48:33] of the United States. [48:34] So there's a reason [48:35] why those conversations [48:35] don't happen. [48:36] I'm going to say [48:36] the reason is entirely [48:37] their fault [48:38] because I would do it, [48:40] they won't. [48:41] So if I were speaking [48:43] to somebody like Vance [48:45] who has a long future [48:47] ahead of him [48:48] in some form or another [48:48] as an American, [48:50] I would be trying [48:52] to coax him back [48:53] to some version [48:54] of caring about [48:55] where he's from [48:56] and the people [48:57] who are from [48:58] where he's from [48:58] because he's moved [48:59] a long way from there [49:01] deep into oligarch land [49:03] and he spends [49:04] his considerable [49:06] mental energy [49:07] coming up [49:09] with crackpot justification. [49:11] Sorry, [49:11] this is not how [49:11] I would talk to him, [49:12] but it's like [49:12] this is the case. [49:13] He spends his considerable [49:14] mental energy [49:15] coming up with justifications [49:16] for why it's okay [49:17] for American social media companies [49:19] to spread their brand [49:20] of fascism [49:20] around the world. [49:21] And that is so far away [49:23] from being concerned about, [49:25] you know, [49:25] because things are tough [49:26] in a lot of southern Ohio, [49:27] you know. [49:28] So that's what I would try. [49:29] I don't think it would work. [49:30] But that's where I would go [49:32] because he and I [49:32] are from basically [49:33] the same place [49:34] and, you know, [49:34] we know a lot [49:35] of the same things [49:36] and there are ways [49:37] to care about that. [49:38] But it's just, [49:38] it's not caring [49:39] about those people [49:40] to become essentially [49:42] someone who is a spokesperson [49:45] for an oligarchy, [49:47] which is largely [49:48] an international oligarchy [49:49] and whose interests [49:50] just are completely [49:51] not constant. [49:53] So I'm showing [49:54] how it's hard for me [49:55] because I would do it [49:57] and this is what [49:57] I would appeal to, [49:58] you know, [49:58] but I don't know [49:59] that this appeal [50:00] would actually go anywhere. [50:02] I mean, [50:02] if there's a different question [50:03] about folks [50:05] who are not [50:05] in the inner circle. [50:06] Well, that was, [50:07] well, actually, [50:08] having said that [50:09] was my last question, [50:10] I'm going to slightly [50:10] take that back and say, [50:11] if you go slightly [50:13] further out, [50:13] is that where there's hope? [50:15] Yeah. [50:15] I mean, there's a, [50:16] look, [50:16] I mean, [50:17] in the United States military, [50:18] there are lots of folks [50:19] whose, [50:20] I mean, [50:20] political views are [50:21] and many things [50:21] would be very different [50:22] than mine [50:23] and perhaps many [50:24] of your listeners [50:25] or readers. [50:26] but who undoubtedly [50:29] are concerned [50:30] about the future existence [50:31] and security [50:32] and safety [50:32] of the United States [50:33] and that is a, [50:35] that is certainly [50:36] a reason for hope [50:36] and I don't have, [50:37] and occasionally, [50:38] I do talk to folks [50:39] like that [50:40] and, you know, [50:42] that's a very easy [50:42] conversation to have [50:44] because I, [50:45] you know, [50:46] whatever, [50:46] whatever we end up [50:47] thinking about [50:47] and I, [50:49] I mean, [50:49] I have strong views [50:50] about this, [50:50] about whatever we think [50:51] about social media [50:52] or healthcare [50:52] or the redistribution [50:53] of wealth, [50:54] none of those things [50:55] can be achieved [50:56] without a robust [50:57] rule of law democracy [50:58] and so if folks [51:00] can go along [51:00] with the notion [51:01] that there should be [51:01] a robust rule of law [51:02] democracy, [51:03] then we can get [51:04] to other things [51:04] and there are still [51:05] a lot of people, [51:06] I mean, [51:06] there's been a purge, [51:08] there have been [51:08] various purges, [51:09] but there is still [51:10] a strong sense [51:11] among important branches [51:12] of the government [51:14] that there should be [51:14] a robust rule of law [51:15] democracy. [51:17] Well, [51:17] I think that's [51:17] an incredibly hopeful [51:18] moment to thank you [51:20] for coming here. [51:21] That's good. [51:22] I just want to say [51:23] my hope, [51:24] no, [51:25] it's an and. [51:26] I mean, [51:26] my hope doesn't reside [51:28] in people continuing [51:29] to do the things [51:30] that they're doing, [51:31] respectable and decent [51:32] though the things are. [51:33] My hope resides [51:34] in people in the next [51:35] six months or so [51:36] doing some things [51:37] that they haven't done before. [51:38] I mean, [51:38] you've given an amazing [51:39] roadmap to protest, [51:41] to talk to people, [51:43] to understand [51:43] how to get inside [51:44] the things that make [51:47] people believe [51:48] in a better future. [51:49] Yeah, [51:50] that's it. [51:51] It's not just resistance. [51:51] It's about thinking [51:52] about how it could be better. [51:53] Dr. Snyder, [51:54] thank you for coming. [51:55] It's been a pleasure. [51:56] Thank you. [52:01] That was such [52:02] a fascinating interview. [52:03] So much to think about. [52:05] There is so much [52:06] practical advice [52:07] in there at a time [52:08] when sometimes [52:08] it seems hard [52:09] to know what to do. [52:11] And you should also [52:12] check out [52:13] Timothy Snyder's [52:13] Substack. [52:14] He is at [52:15] Snyder.Substack.com. [52:17] It is well worth [52:18] a view [52:19] and a visit. [52:21] If you enjoyed [52:21] the interview, [52:22] even a fraction [52:22] of how much I did, [52:24] please share it [52:24] with your friends. [52:25] Please get in the comments. [52:26] We love [52:26] hearing from you. [52:28] And if you haven't [52:29] subscribed, [52:29] please hit that button. [52:30] Help us to get [52:31] 700,000. [52:32] It helps more people [52:33] hear from us [52:34] and therefore [52:35] our brilliant guests. [52:37] Joanna and I [52:37] will be reporting back [52:38] from the White House dinner, [52:39] which will be [52:40] a fascinating event. [52:42] And don't forget, [52:43] you can join [52:43] the Beast family. [52:44] Friend of the Beast [52:45] membership is just [52:46] $4.99 a month [52:46] for a load of benefits. [52:48] We include live streams [52:49] with Joanna Coles, [52:49] who I'm happy to say [52:50] will be back [52:51] for our next episode. [52:52] I'm only keeping [52:53] the chair warm for her, [52:55] but thank you [52:55] to our production team, [52:57] Devon Rogerino, [52:57] Ryan Murray, [52:58] Rachel Passer, [52:59] and our brave [53:00] legal ego, [53:01] Neil Rosenhouse, [53:02] who makes sure [53:02] that we do not [53:03] bend or bow.