How Bourdain brought José Andrés & Eric Ripert together: 'We were a trio'

[0:00] How many assistants do you have to take care of yourself? [0:02] I don't think this conversation is going in the right direction. [0:04] No, it doesn't matter. [0:05] I take care of myself. [0:06] You don't lie at the beginning of the conversation. [0:08] I'm not lying. [0:14] I am Eric Ripert, the chef of Le Bernardin, married to Sandra, proud of being a father of a great son. [0:23] Adrian is great. [0:24] I'm chef José Andrés, and I cook for a living. [0:34] One on one at CNN, who is the first one? [0:37] You or me? [0:38] Are you the one or I'm the one? [0:39] You have to be the one. [0:41] You're the first one, I'm the second one. [0:42] You try to confuse me here. [0:43] Do you remember the first time we met? [0:46] I don't remember. [0:47] I don't remember either. [0:48] No. [0:49] But we should remember. [0:50] When did you come to Washington, D.C.? [0:53] 1993. [0:54] Oh, that was late. [0:55] Jean-Louis Paladin was there, the great French chef, no longer with us, at the Watergate. [1:01] My mentor. [1:02] And you were with him. [1:02] One of my mentors. [1:03] You were with him in the Watergate. [1:04] Yes. [1:05] What year was that? [1:06] 1989. [1:07] So we were there. [1:09] Our spirits were following each other. [1:11] Okay, so we knew each other for almost 30 years. [1:14] Yes. [1:14] But we became very, very, very, very, very close. [1:18] Anthony Bourdain was very important in bringing us together. [1:20] For us, yes. [1:21] We were a trio. [1:23] Yeah, but before we were a trio, you were a duo. [1:27] I met Anthony on my own. [1:29] Obviously, you met Anthony on your own. [1:30] Yeah. [1:32] Yeah. [1:32] But Tony had even more to do in you and I. [1:35] We come in even stronger in so many ways. [1:39] For us in the friendship, yes, I remember the moment because we went through it together. [1:43] We spoke a lot about it. [1:44] You were already opening a restaurant in Washington. [1:48] You were thinking about opening a restaurant in Philly. [1:51] Yes. [1:52] You had offers to open other restaurants. [1:55] And one day, I remember that moment that almost you were calling me to tell me, I'm not doing more restaurants. [2:00] I'm closing the one side of it. [2:02] And I'm closing, do you want it? [2:04] And I'm like, really? [2:05] And you went to concentrate in your Bernardin and me, I kept opening. [2:13] Yes. [2:13] And opening more restaurants. [2:15] And this was kind of fascinating as friends and chefs that we... [2:20] For sure. [2:20] My life is simple. [2:23] I have a family. [2:24] I have one restaurant in New York, one in Cayman Island. [2:27] Your life is a bit more complicated. [2:29] I don't... [2:30] You have a what? [2:31] 40 restaurants? [2:32] Do you know how many restaurants do you have or not? [2:34] More or less, yeah. [2:35] How many do you have? [2:36] 40-something, yeah. [2:37] Do you still go to the kitchen? [2:39] I am. [2:39] With 40 restaurants? [2:41] Well, more... [2:42] More or less, but... [2:43] What happened is, you know, when I go to my kitchens and I feel like I'm a foreigner, like I don't belong. [2:49] No, no way. [2:50] Let me tell you why. [2:51] I have restaurants, they've been open. [2:53] I open them, many of them. [2:54] I open them. [2:56] And I have people there, they've been working with me for almost 33 years. [2:59] For a long time, yeah. [2:59] And sometimes you go to the kitchen, even if it's not my kitchen, it's their kitchen too, it's our kitchen. [3:07] Ah, that's the big difference with me. [3:09] And they made it their own. [3:11] It's their kitchen. [3:12] Ah. [3:12] And I go there. [3:14] I feel different. [3:14] And there's people I don't recognize. [3:16] But they are the ones making it happen. [3:17] And without them... [3:18] Of course. [3:19] Ah, because it's a lot of restaurants, it's a lot of people. [3:22] People come and go. [3:23] But that's the beauty of a kitchen, right? [3:25] A kitchen at the end of the day, a restaurant, is this whole bunch of people that they can be anywhere, but they decide to be part of that. [3:32] To be with you. [3:33] Or with me. [3:34] To be with you. [3:34] Yeah. [3:34] And we need to be very thankful of that moment, right? [3:37] No, of course. [3:37] But for me, it's very different. [3:39] I know the name of every cook, every employee, from the dishwasher to the waiter. [3:44] So that gives me tremendous confidence and comfort and support. [3:49] I tried to do what you have done, developing. [3:52] And I was really bad at it. [3:55] I was stressing. [3:56] It was not a source of joy for me. [3:59] It was not anything positive. [4:03] It was kind of messing up with my life and my routine. [4:06] So I stopped doing that. [4:08] And I came back to the source. [4:11] And that's why we are so different, you and I. [4:13] Because I would love to be able to do what you have done and what you are doing today. [4:17] And I would love to do what you've done. [4:21] You want to do that? [4:22] You come to Le Bernardin one day and you take ownership of the restaurant or the kitchen. [4:27] And I go and I try to do what you do. [4:30] And, I mean, after four or five hours, I'm coming back, guarantee. [4:34] I don't want to stay there. [4:35] What will happen if we switch job for a day? [4:38] Like, you become Eric. [4:39] Oh, my God. [4:40] My team will be so happy. [4:42] My team will be so proud. [4:45] The best human resource decision I made in my life. [4:50] They will love you. [4:52] And probably, I have no doubt, you will make my company better. [4:55] If we trade jobs, I give them a day off. [4:58] Let's put it this way. [4:59] Thank you. [5:00] Great. [5:01] Finally. [5:02] Great. [5:02] This is the Buddhism in you. [5:03] That's because meditation. [5:04] Thank you for not serving me. [5:09] My wife tells me, don't get people drunk. [5:12] Are we the only ones drinking in a one-on-one at CNN? [5:15] I guess so. [5:18] Let's look at you. [5:20] Yeah. [5:20] You have three-star Michelin, I don't know for how many years. [5:23] When everybody talks about perfection, Eric Rippert, Lerber, Norden is always up there. [5:30] And you have to live with this because the only thing that can happen in your life is that you can only go down. [5:35] Why? Because you are at the top of your profession. [5:38] And you seem always so calm. [5:39] But I know that to keep that perfection, there's so much work behind. [5:43] People don't realize that. [5:45] But I have a routine. [5:46] I wake up early. [5:47] At 5.30 a.m., I'm up. [5:49] I drink my coffee. [5:51] I meditate. [5:52] I go to Le Bernardin. [5:53] I go to the office. [5:54] I say hello to everybody. [5:55] I go to the kitchen. [5:56] I try all the sauce. [5:57] Because I'm focused on those things, I don't think about the press or the awards or the business aspect that has nothing to do with being the chef of Le Bernardin, with the responsibilities that I have. [6:14] Of course, José, like you, the business has to be sustainable. [6:17] But for me, it's simple. [6:18] It goes to Le Bernardin. [6:20] For you, it's so many different things because you are unstoppable in a good way, José, in a very good way. [6:26] You and I, we cannot be more different ones from each other, in a way. [6:29] I cannot believe we are such a good friends. [6:31] You are the opposite. [6:31] You are my role model. [6:32] You are all the things you describe. [6:34] You're right. [6:35] The method you have to go through life, I think is what I sense in your food. [6:40] Like, when I see a dish of yours, when I eat a fish of yours, it feels almost like the fish has been kissed. [6:49] It's been, like, loved. [6:52] And to me, this is what is fantastic. [6:54] Like, that the way you live your life, obviously, is even represented, and I can sense it, in the dishes you put in front of the people. [7:02] Thank you. [7:03] The popular belief is that chefs, we blow off very quickly and very fast, which is like, I would say, like, we are like anybody else. [7:10] But it's true that kitchens can be very intense in certain moments. [7:15] For sure. [7:15] Sometimes, not everything goes smooth. [7:18] It's a very big engine. [7:21] In the old days, you used to blow off. [7:25] Oh, yes. [7:26] And how is the Eric of 20, 30 years ago to the Eric of today? [7:30] That Eric doesn't exist anymore. [7:34] I have a natural temper. [7:38] I can flip like that very easily. [7:41] And I was also misguided by the attitude of some of my mentors. [7:47] And I thought that… [7:48] The old kitchen ways. [7:48] The old kitchen ways, which was humiliating the cooks, breaking them psychologically to supposedly rebuild them as champions. [7:57] And as you know, so many talented people were lost in the process. [8:01] When I became a chef for the first time, instead of saying, hey, I learned my lessons, I'm not going to do that. [8:07] But I had tantrums in the kitchen. [8:08] I was not physical because it's not me. [8:10] But I was throwing plates on the floor. [8:12] And I was very unhappy in my life. [8:16] The team was miserable, as you can imagine. [8:18] But I had that duh moment. [8:21] One night in the sofa at home, I was looking at the ceiling like that. [8:25] And I was like, why? [8:27] What's happening? [8:27] And I realized it was all my fault. [8:32] Intimidating and scaring the staff. [8:34] Instead of blossoming, they were like shrinking. [8:38] And most of them were leaving anyway. [8:41] So from that day, when I had that moment, I totally changed. [8:46] When was that moment? [8:47] Do you remember that moment? [8:48] Yeah, of course I remember. [8:49] It was in 1995. [8:50] I was reading some books from the Dalai Lama because I was interested. [8:55] He just received a few years before the Nobel Prize for Peace. [9:00] I was inspired by the Tibetan cause. [9:03] And I was inspired also by people who meditate. [9:06] And I was like, maybe meditation could be good for me. [9:08] I needed to find a direction. [9:11] It could have been no religion at all, but someone who's a mentor. [9:16] But for me, it was Buddhism. [9:18] Buddhism and Buddhism became my, basically, lighthouse and helped me to change. [9:25] And it's very difficult to change. [9:27] I changed quite fast, but then I had trained people around myself that were following the [9:37] old directions. [9:38] I had to explain to them, hey, guys, we were wrong yesterday. [9:41] There's no other way. [9:41] We have to change. [9:42] It took a long, long, long time. [9:45] But I never regretted, of course, this moment. [9:47] It changed my life for the best. [9:49] I grew up in that environment, too, at times. [9:51] I used to work in a summer restaurant for the chefs to say that something was wrong. [9:56] He would throw me the pen in the back of my head. [10:00] And, you know, it was not right. [10:03] But at the same time, I have a feeling like if I quit, I'm not going to be protecting the [10:07] other guys. [10:08] But yes, these kind of tantrums, sometimes you will realize that you were becoming what [10:14] you were seeing. [10:15] And this was kind of at times almost your excuse. [10:18] I had the kind of the same relationship, unfortunately, with my mother, who was a wonderful woman, but she was very tough in the way she treated us and the way she will use the brooms and all the things. [10:29] And for me, something I've always had with me. [10:33] It hurt you. [10:34] So in the kitchen early on, I could be that kind of intense. [10:38] And then one day you realize that we always excuse ourselves. [10:44] So we use that as a shield to explain ourselves. [10:47] And at the end is one moment when they are not there any longer. [10:52] You are like, but I cannot shield myself behind the behaviors of the people before me. [10:59] No. [10:59] It's up to me precisely not to become them. [11:04] And it's also very important to have people around you that are honest with you. [11:07] For sure. [11:09] When in any moment, your behavior can go over a line that we know nobody should be crossing. [11:18] It's important to have those people around you. [11:20] Of course. [11:20] People that immediately speak truth to you. [11:22] Yes. [11:23] Because we are only as good as the people we have around us. [11:26] But it starts by you taking your own responsibility. [11:29] And at times, listening to the hard truth when somebody is telling you very clearly, [11:35] hey, you can be always the better version of yourself. [11:39] You said before that you meditate. [11:42] And I said that I'm connecting the way you live your life with this peacefulness that [11:47] you are able always to spread around you. [11:51] And I'm a Christian Catholic boy. [11:53] And I've been learning and you've been sharing that you go to faraway places to visit monks [11:59] and Buddha and Buddhism. [12:04] And this is a very important part of who you are. [12:06] For me, it is, yes. [12:07] These trips that you go that I'm so jealous that you never take me with you. [12:12] And I understand why. [12:13] Because you go to look for calm and I only will bring you earthquakes. [12:16] Explain to me how this part is within your life. [12:19] Because it's a very important one. [12:21] You inspire calm. [12:22] So meditation is something that has no affiliation with any religion, although every religion [12:29] practices meditation. [12:31] But it's like going to the gym. [12:34] But instead of your muscles, it's for your brain. [12:38] And you are the boss. [12:40] The brain is not the boss any longer. [12:42] You're not in the past. [12:44] You're not in the future. [12:45] You're right here, right now. [12:47] So for me, the meditation, it's a way to start the day and to level myself. [12:54] What is amazing to me is that, and I'm not kissing your ass here. [12:57] I don't care. [12:57] You do so many different things and it looks like you are like the Tasmanian devil. [13:02] And you do it well because you're a very good cook. [13:06] That for you, actually, it's a meditation. [13:08] It's when you are really absorbed. [13:10] And cooking for family and friends. [13:12] Yes. [13:12] And you love that and you put all your love in it and all your passion and knowledge and [13:17] you're unstoppable when you're starting to cook. [13:20] So that, for you, is very relaxing. [13:22] But then, how do you manage to do all those things that you are involved with? [13:28] Obviously, thank you for comparing me to the Tasmanian devil because it's almost extinct. [13:33] So I don't know if this is, yeah. [13:35] You're talking about the cartoonish one. [13:36] I know, but they were alive. [13:39] We were in Cayman Island once. [13:41] Yeah. [13:41] And you remember what happened in IET? [13:44] 2010. [13:46] It inspired you to go there and help. [13:48] And then you created this amazing organization, World Central Kitchen. [13:52] It takes so much energy from you and you lobby for it. [13:56] And you, at the same time, take care of your businesses. [14:00] I don't know how you can do all those things. [14:02] And then you are in a comic now with Superman or whoever it is. [14:05] I don't know. [14:06] I find my peace in other ways. [14:08] So how do you find your peace? [14:09] Well, you and I, we find the peace when we are together in a beach and smoking a cigar and walking for one hour. [14:15] Yes. [14:15] It's one of my favorite moments. [14:17] Me too. [14:18] And my wife or your wife comes with us. [14:20] When you scuba dive too. [14:21] But I love those moments with you. [14:22] But what you're describing, I think, obviously, my wife has been this source for me of peace. [14:30] I don't know what my life will be like if I had that person next to me. [14:35] She tries to make me disciplined about life. [14:38] And quite frankly, as I grow older, the more I realize how lucky I've been of having her in my life. [14:45] I have many discussions with you and you just come back from the front line in Ukraine or you have a huge crisis in Gaza. [14:54] How do you do that? [14:56] I mean, are you tired at the end of the day? [14:58] Are you in control of everything? [15:00] It's the fact that you have successful restaurants, great teams, very precise work that you do everywhere. [15:10] To me, it's a mystery because I can't do it. [15:12] I can't do it. [15:12] In my restaurants, I feed a few. I want my restaurants to run well. [15:16] It's my art. It's my craft. [15:17] But also, I see that the same talent, you can feed the many. [15:20] And for me, knowing that our profession, we can go to different emergencies and very quick adapt and take care in the thousands or in the millions. [15:30] So for me, going achieves in me this moment of peace that if not, I'm going to be very uncomfortable. [15:39] I say, Katrina, I saw the Superdome. [15:41] Forget all New Orleans. [15:42] It's how we left 20,000 Americans without food and water for so long. [15:47] And I think that's why in 2010, when Anthony Bourdain and you and I, we were together and that earthquake happened. [15:55] And I thought, you know what? [15:57] I'm not going to be thinking what I could do. [15:59] I'm going to go in real time, boots on the ground to see how can I be part of whatever response. [16:07] So you take the time to think about it, because it looks like you are doing a lot of things at the same time. [16:13] In a fire, you send firefighters. [16:16] In an earthquake, you send search and rescue teams. [16:19] Yeah. [16:19] If you have to feed people, who are the best people to feed humanity? [16:25] Cooks like us. [16:26] That was a very simple idea. [16:29] Understanding that everybody wants to help. [16:30] And the only thing you have to do is just light a little fire. [16:33] So your level of compassion and empathy, it's very, it's your instinct, it's very strong, right? [16:39] But it gets deeper than that. [16:41] Sometimes I have a feeling we all need this moment of feeling that there are more angels than demons. [16:49] But it seems the demons are the ones that have the bigger voice. [16:52] I'm very selfish in a way. [16:53] I'm selfish because I need to feel that there is goodness in the world, even in moments that only looks mayhem and chaos. [17:01] Yeah. [17:02] And when I go to these moments, in the worst moments of humanity, the best of humanity shows up. [17:08] And I'm right there watching it. [17:11] You're not watching it, you're part of it. [17:13] Yeah, but I'm watching it because I'm one person. [17:15] When I see people leaving everything aside, use helping people, this gives me internal peace, but also gives me energy to keep going. [17:26] At the same time. [17:27] So, some people thank me because they say, you are the one giving. [17:31] No, no, no, no. [17:32] I receive a million times more than I am able to give. [17:37] I come back from those missions tired. [17:40] Yes, physically tired. [17:42] Emotionally, right? [17:44] But very re-empowered. [17:46] I know that your heart is there and you want to help, but how do you create the systems? [17:51] Because everything goes fast, I imagine, right? [17:53] It's like an emergency. [17:54] People are panicking, people are starving. [17:56] From lessons of the past, listen, across my restaurant I live in Washington, D.C., they [18:01] discovered a house, red brick mortar house, and it was the house of somebody. [18:05] That person was Clara Barton, created the Red Cross. [18:08] If you think about it, she was a nurse like my mom. [18:12] She took care of- [18:13] Your mom was a nurse? [18:13] My mom was a nurse. [18:14] Clara Barton, she took care of the few, but she created organizations to take care of the [18:19] many. [18:20] I've been searching, and in the process I've been changing, about what is the perfect way [18:25] to have an organizational chart that is efficient. [18:29] And I have a feeling that you have to keep adapting and changing through this search that [18:36] never ends for me. [18:37] The organization seems, including restaurants, right, somebody's at the very top and everybody's [18:42] under, right? [18:42] Yes. [18:43] Pyramid-like. [18:44] Hierarchy. [18:45] The chef is the chef, or the GM is the GM, and everybody else is under. [18:50] And I always thought that very often, and especially if you grow, sometimes it doesn't [18:59] work too well, because at the end you have people at the top, people at the bottom, people [19:03] in between, and when you're at the very top, you feel very alone, like you're at the top. [19:09] You're at the top of the pyramid, and that can be a very lonely place. [19:13] And then you have a lot of people underneath that sometimes what you think or what you communicate [19:18] is not communicated well enough, and as the information comes down with the weight of gravity. [19:24] Get lost. [19:25] Can get lost, or can be misunderstood. [19:29] Well, because you didn't explain it well, or well because the people are explaining it [19:33] on your behalf, don't explain it as you meant to be. [19:37] Yes. [19:38] So you don't believe in hierarchy and systems? [19:40] I've been learning. [19:41] Or you don't rely on hierarchy and systems? [19:43] I've been learning that the leadership is not because the title you have behind the door [19:47] of your office. [19:48] Not for sure. [19:49] Because the work you do with the boots on the ground in the place, that things must [19:53] happen. [19:54] If you create organizations that are slightly flatter in its creation, more people can participate [20:02] in contributing to what may be the final decision-making. [20:05] So you delegate a lot. [20:07] Well, me, myself, I have no other option. [20:10] But I do believe that the future of organizations are not perfectly pyramidal because they are too [20:16] mature. [20:17] Yes. [20:18] Maybe not totally flat because then it can be also chaos. [20:22] Yes. [20:23] You're mixing between both. [20:24] So flexible. [20:25] A lot of flexibility, right? [20:27] But you need a boss. [20:28] You need someone who takes the burden of having the responsibility to make sure that everything [20:36] is fine. [20:37] And that's you or it's me in my company. [20:39] But the leader that sometimes knows when to lead by the front, but in the right moments [20:43] knows how to lead from the back. [20:47] Absolutely. [20:48] Yes. [20:49] And cannot be black and white. [20:50] And you have to be adapting to the situation. [20:54] Can be non-profits. [20:55] Can be for profit. [20:56] Families is the same. [20:57] In a way. [20:58] Yeah, but you still are in control. [21:01] Correct. [21:02] With family, you're not in control. [21:03] Thank you. [21:06] No cigars. [21:08] Well, we are not allowed to smoke here. [21:09] I mean, it's the fire department. [21:11] I mean, did you hear the sirens? [21:12] Give me a break. [21:14] You know why I'm very surprised that we're still friends. [21:17] Oh, really? [21:18] Because knowing who you are, knowing who I am, I will say, man, I'm going to move this [21:24] guy away from my life. [21:25] He only creates distortion in the force. [21:27] No, you are an amazing opportunity for me to practice. [21:33] You know, like sometimes the frustration builds up because I try to call you, right? [21:38] Or I send you a text message. [21:40] As you know, you never answer. [21:42] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. [21:45] I answer psychically. [21:46] Mentally, yes. [21:47] Mentally. [21:48] I'm sending you my waves through the air and I know you're receiving them. [21:52] So the waves are very aggressive and take to my practice. [21:56] I manage. [21:57] No, but. [21:58] We all need to have these people, the people we can talk to about things, random things. [22:03] How many times even you say and never answer your phone that we speak about whatever out [22:07] of the blue. [22:08] Yeah. [22:09] And I'm asking you, I need your opinion. [22:10] You're asking me. [22:11] I need yours. [22:12] For sure. [22:13] For us was very important. [22:15] Even I didn't see you much because we were all doing our things during the pandemic. [22:20] You are the best restaurant in New York, one of the best in the world. [22:24] And during the pandemic, your restaurant was helping feed shelters and hospitals all across [22:31] the city. [22:32] You know why? [22:33] Well, why? [22:34] Because you wanted to help. [22:35] No. [22:36] Because of you. [22:37] You came with World Central Kitchen and we were closed. [22:41] And we had no jobs. [22:43] And you came and you gave us the opportunity to make a difference. [22:47] And then you supported us with the organization. [22:49] But you wanted to do it, which is different. [22:51] Of course, of course we wanted to do it, but we didn't have the organization to do it. [22:56] So that moment for me, it's a very important moment in my life, in our friendship. [23:02] But I was very proud of you because you didn't have to do it. [23:05] Of course I had to do it. [23:06] No, but I will not expect you to do it. [23:08] But you decide to do it. [23:10] Quite frankly, you are my friend, but because you are my friend, I'm not expecting everybody [23:13] in the middle of an emergency to do the emergency work. [23:18] No restaurant should feel that pressure. [23:20] But you did it. [23:21] And if anything, I was more, yeah, that they probably seal it for me, right? [23:28] Because even if you didn't do it, you will be one without the doubt of my best friends. [23:32] But something like that, then you were not only one of my best friends, you were something else. [23:38] You were a person that I knew I can count on no matter what happens. [23:43] Well, that's friendship. [23:45] I mean, you know, that's love. [23:46] No other friendship. [23:47] You can count on your friends. [23:48] Real friendship is about love. [23:50] Now you said it. [23:50] My definition of love, it's to wish you to be happy and at the same time do everything that I can to make you happy. [24:00] And without expecting anything in return. [24:02] Nothing in return, of course. [24:04] Do you have a hard time to accept gifts? [24:07] Yeah. [24:07] I have a hard time to take gifts like that because I really want to give back right away. [24:13] Well, we give cigars to each other. [24:15] Well, yes. [24:15] But do you know what is the real gift? [24:17] It's not the cigar itself. [24:17] No, it's the time we spend together. [24:19] It's a great inspiration for me when we have those cigar moments. [24:23] Because the cigar is an excuse, really, at the end of the day. [24:25] We know it's going to take an hour to smoke. [24:28] It's an hour in our life that we have together to speak about how we can change the world or not. [24:37] At least try. [24:38] Speak about our families and anything, right? [24:40] But you know what I really like you, man? [24:41] Because when I go, you are the only restaurant in New York. [24:44] I cannot even do this in my house or in my restaurant. [24:47] I go to your restaurant and I tell them I don't want the fancy dish that Derrick and his team has put. [24:52] Can you send me the tray of sea urchin? [24:57] I know. [24:58] And you do it. [24:59] And you send me the tray of sea urchin in the most creative restaurant for fish in the world. [25:03] We give you whatever you want. [25:04] And you let me go. [25:06] You keep letting me go. [25:07] You don't explain to me the way it works in your head. [25:15] Still, I'm trying to figure out how it works in my head. [25:17] Because if I can learn that, you imagine, I will be super mad. [25:21] Thank you very much. [25:22] Good morning, sir. [25:23] Good morning, sir.