How AI is being used to target Palestinians — The Stream

[0:01] War isn't just about ammunition, weapons and military hardware. It's also being calculated and coded. [0:07] Today we're talking Gaza, where one side of tech is being used to monitor, assess and kill, whereas another side is providing a lifeline. [0:15] I'm Stephanie Decker and welcome to the stream. [0:17] Now, first up, we're joined by Paul Bigger. [0:20] He is the founder of Tech for Palestine, unpacking how surveillance, AI-driven systems and digital tools are being used in the war on Gaza [0:28] and how he is mobilising global tech communities in response. [0:33] Paul, thank you for joining us here on the stream. [0:35] First of all, I want to start by asking you, how is AI being used by big tech to target Palestinians, to target those who support Palestinians and why? [0:48] Well, thank you so much for having me on the show. [0:53] So, the way that big tech is involved in the war on Palestinians is that their data centres and their AI capabilities are being used by Israel [1:06] to commit the genocide on Gaza and also to do mass surveillance across Palestinians and the West Bank and Gaza. [1:17] And even now, we're seeing that these companies, these American-US tech giants are being used in the war on Iran that is being launched by America and Israel at the moment. [1:29] Let me just play a clip before we continue, because as AI systems are becoming more embedded in warfare, [1:35] serious concerns are being raised about how these systems are developed and where their data comes from. [1:40] Some argue that places like Gaza are being used, in effect, as testing grounds for new technologies. [1:45] Watch this. [1:45] I was sitting next to a Palantir scientist, engineer, whatever you might call them, during a dinner. [1:53] This gentleman next to me, he listened to what the conversation was, he was talking to somebody else, [1:58] and he said, oh, Gaza, the Gaza was fantastic for us. [2:01] He meant Palantir. [2:02] And I said, yeah, well, you know, what, tens of thousands of children being maimed and killed was fantastic. [2:08] You know, he said, no, no, no, no, that was terrible. [2:09] But, and he pointed at my phone, which was sitting on the table, [2:14] and he said, your phone now is useless to me because it's not moving. [2:17] If it's stationary, it doesn't produce data. [2:19] But if you bombard a densely populated area, people with their phones run around a lot. [2:26] They produce a lot of data. [2:27] They pick up a phone, they call. [2:28] And we train, that's what he said, we train our AI programs on this wealth of data that came out of Gaza. [2:35] And I said, yeah, okay, can you explain to me what did you get out of that? [2:38] He said, well, we just sold a program, an AI program, to the British National Health Service for one billion pounds. [2:44] And what they're going to be using this program that was trained on the death and destruction of people in Gaza, [2:51] what this is trained to do is to help organize British hospitals in cases of emergencies when, you know, nurses and doctors and so on panic. [3:00] So you can see, this is the first time in human history that you don't simply have the arms trade, [3:05] where arms dealers make a lot of money from selling weapons. [3:07] Here, the actual killing of the people, the people running around injured, their movements, their screams, their agony, their pain, [3:17] is training AI, which then allows people like the gentleman who's sitting next to me, [3:22] through the Tony Blair Institute, to sell to a national public health service software. [3:30] Paul, what is your reaction to that? [3:31] Would you say that is accurate in terms of the scale of what we're looking at? [3:37] That is certainly accurate. [3:38] We are seeing big tech companies, and Palantir in particular, using all of this data that is being created from the war, [3:48] but also from things like protests in the United States, and is being sort of sucked up into this machine. [3:54] And the machine, it isn't really useful for anything, right? [4:01] They have this concept that we're going to use AI to, you know, do all sorts of things with it. [4:06] And really what they're doing is they're selling this sort of like false dream with sort of inaccurate statistical data, [4:14] and they're using it to do truly awful things. [4:16] I think one of the main recognitions that we have to have of this AI era is that the people who are doing it, [4:23] and the people who are the leaders of these companies, are, you know, complicit in the war machine, [4:29] not just as salesmen, but, you know, that they're actively participating in the narratives [4:33] that are driving the war themselves, in particular in the United States. [4:37] That's really interesting, because I wanted to ask you, like, more and more we're looking at these big tech companies [4:43] in the hands of just a few. [4:45] How much power do they have these days vis-a-vis governments, for example? [4:50] Because it really does sound like they are the ones that are becoming, you know, the ones that hold all the cards. [4:59] Absolutely. They have an incredible amount of power. [5:01] So, for example, the founder, one of the founders of Palantir is Peter Thiel, who is this, you know, [5:07] very extreme right billionaire in the U.S. [5:12] And, you know, he is someone who helped put Donald Trump into the White House the first time in 2016. [5:20] J.D. Vance, the vice president of the United States, is his protege and someone that he funded through multiple campaigns. [5:27] And, you know, he is also the founder of Palantir. [5:31] And that is not an accident, because the same sort of, you know, sort of like blood and soil rhetoric [5:39] that is used by one group is being used by the other. [5:42] These are part of the same extended ecosystem, which is, you know, extremely supportive of Israel, [5:50] is extremely afraid of China, is extremely pro-fascism in the United States. [5:55] And, you know, it is not a coincidence that all three of these things are thriving at the same time. [6:00] So, you founded Tech for Palestine in 2024, right, to try and counter everything that you've just described. [6:08] Break it down for us. [6:10] Like, what does it mean? [6:11] How can you, can you actually counter these massive tech giants? [6:16] And what kind of support do you have? [6:17] So, that remains to be seen, of course. [6:21] Our role in Tech for Palestine is an advocacy role. [6:26] We are trying to create a broad movement for the liberation of Palestine. [6:30] Of course, there already is a broad movement. [6:33] But part of what we do is we're trying to bring that and organize that across all of society. [6:38] So, we see that there are pro-Israel organizations, you call them Zionist organizations, throughout the world in every part of society exerting influence. [6:48] And we are trying to build a massive range of counter-Zionist or counter-Hasbara, which is their word for propaganda, movements to try and push back against Israeli influence, in particular throughout the West. [7:02] Does the tech world, when we talk about these, you know, massive companies, the ones with the power, do they all talk with one voice? [7:13] Are they all pro-Israel? [7:15] Or are there many of them that are saying, hold on a second, we don't agree with what you're doing? [7:19] Have you seen a change recently, let's say? [7:23] There are not many that are saying we don't agree with what you're doing, in particular across big tech. [7:29] But we do see that there is a difference in the reasons that they are supporting Israel. [7:34] So, for example, Palantir is just, you know, sort of like a pro-war, pro-white supremacy kind of organization, whereas Microsoft, it seems, is much more in it for the money. [7:47] Google is much more ideologically aligned, especially with its leadership, and similar things with, you know, companies like Cisco. [7:58] But it varies, and it doesn't necessarily always extend throughout the entire organization. [8:04] So, for example, Intel was extremely pro-Israel because its leader and CEO was a Christian Zionist. [8:14] However, that leader stepped in, and the remaining Intel is still, you know, actively involved in the oppression and in the apartheid. [8:23] But it seems that it is much less forcefully so. [8:26] Okay, so, break it down for us, because it does seem to be such a complicated subject. [8:32] What does this mean for civilians? [8:34] We're talking about Gaza. [8:35] You're talking about Iran. [8:36] When it comes to these tech giants monitoring, right, siphoning off information from our phones, from social media. [8:44] We're talking about warfare. [8:45] But the web does spread much wider than that, right? [8:49] Like, are we all being monitored all the time? [8:51] And if so, where is our data going? [8:56] Absolutely. [8:56] We're all being monitored all of the time. [9:00] In a lot of cases, we sort of ourselves accidentally opt ourselves into this monitoring. [9:05] So, for example, there are tons, in particular, of games on phones which sell your data to data brokers. [9:13] And those data brokers, you know, are actually sell that data to, for example, ICE. [9:19] So, there's information out there about how, you know, how does ICE track people? [9:23] How does Israel track people? [9:25] You know, those aren't necessarily exactly the same thing, but they are very, very kind of similar. [9:31] With how Israel tracks Palestinians, well, Israel controls the internet, right? [9:37] So, Israel has this huge signal intelligence unit called Unit 8200, which is focused on tracking Palestinians all the time. [9:46] And it's, you know, can even track through vulnerabilities in WhatsApp. [9:51] It can track what WhatsApp group you're members of. [9:54] And apparently, that was widely used in their mass targeting campaigns at the start of the genocide in 2023. [10:01] So, what kind of power do we have? [10:03] So, your initiative, obviously, is phenomenal. [10:07] But is there a power to sort of, I guess, roll this back? [10:13] It seems like all those technologies and systems are in place. [10:16] I mean, we all have phones. [10:17] We pretty much can't live without them. [10:20] You know, what can be done at this point? [10:22] Honestly, we do a lot of shows about this. [10:24] And the more we do them, the more kind of doom and gloom it feels like it is. [10:30] Yeah, I mean, doom and gloom is a very good way of putting it. [10:33] What has happened is that the U.S. tech companies run, you know, they run our phones. [10:42] They run the major services that we use, you know, Meta and, you know, all that sort of thing. [10:49] All of our email, our communications, they run on these big tech companies. [10:54] And America, in particular, is this sort of, like, unfettered capitalism where they can do basically whatever they like with this thing. [11:01] So there are some options. [11:03] For example, the EU has some data privacy, which restricts in some cases what can be done. [11:09] It's still not enough. [11:11] But the primary thing that we can do is actually get off U.S. technology. [11:15] You know, it is essential that people who do not want to be under the yoke of U.S. imperialism realize that that extends to their phones. [11:25] And it's not just the brand of the phone that they buy, it's the apps that they use. [11:30] So, you know, as long as you're using WhatsApp, as long as you're using Instagram, as long as you're using TikTok, you know, these are things that are going to be controlled by those U.S. companies. [11:41] I mean, can we even do that, considering the monopoly, for example, WhatsApp, okay, we've got Signal, Telegram, but everybody uses WhatsApp, right? [11:49] Like, it just seems there's a simplicity, I guess, that makes it easier for these companies to use our data. [11:56] Do you think enough people are aware of just how much we're giving away, how much we're being monitored? [12:03] So, it is very much possible to get off of these. [12:08] So, for example, at Tech for Palestine, we supported the launch of Upscrolls. [12:11] And Upscrolls now has over 5 million members. [12:14] This is a social media network that is like Instagram, but it does not suppress what you're allowed to say on the platform according to the whims of the United States or of their, you know, the Zionist leadership at Meta. [12:26] So, there is very much a choice for getting off these platforms. [12:30] We can choose to move to alternatives. [12:32] Now, I'm not saying that we're going to overnight stop using them, right? [12:35] There's a gradual process where people need to become familiar with using these tools. [12:39] So, moving off WhatsApp, moving on to Signal, for example, you know, that's not something that is done overnight. [12:45] It takes time to migrate your groups over. [12:47] It takes time to start new conversations with friends over there. [12:51] It takes time even just to learn how the platforms work. [12:53] Similarly with ChatGPT, right? [12:56] ChatGPT is something that, and Claude, you know, these are very much American companies with U.S.-centric. [13:02] Viewpoints. [13:04] And we have an alternative, Thara.ai, that allows you to, you know, use a chatbot, use an AI assistant without, you know, being subject to U.S. imperialism and their kind of viewpoints. [13:19] So, we are very much trying to build up this ecosystem. [13:23] And, you know, I don't think that people need to switch overnight to have an effect. [13:29] People need to start experimenting with them. [13:31] Try it out. [13:31] Understand that there's things out there that are outside of the system. [13:35] But I use Signal for, you know, 80% of my communication. [13:41] I still have WhatsApp installed. [13:42] You know, I still have the occasional messages that are happening on WhatsApp. [13:46] That's what a gradual migration looks like. [13:48] And that's what's going to be needed to get off U.S. tech. [13:52] Fascinating. [13:54] A little concerning conversation. [13:55] Paul Bigger, a great initiative. [13:58] And very important to remind ourselves that, you know, it is our attention that they need. [14:04] And it is all about changing how we use these apps on our phones. [14:07] Thanks so much for joining us here on the stream today. [14:10] We're going to continue our conversation now with Iyad Hamidat. [14:13] He's a Gaza-based entrepreneur and founder of Yaffa Solutions, [14:17] training IT graduates and connecting them to work while running logistics on the ground. [14:22] He joins us from Deir al-Balah in Gaza. [14:25] Iyad, thank you so much for joining us today. [14:27] You've probably heard our conversation there. [14:31] It seems very much doom and gloom as to how AI and these tech companies are using us, [14:37] using Gaza, using the Palestinians. [14:39] I mean, there's been various accusations of how Israel tests out weapons and its AI in the strip. [14:46] How would you say, you talk about great talents of minds in Gaza when it comes to IT and tech. [14:55] I've been going in and out of Gaza for 20 years. [14:57] I know that. [14:58] There's no opportunities. [15:00] What are the challenges for people there to create opportunities for themselves, in tech specifically? [15:09] Absolutely. [15:09] So, the biggest challenge that we used to face before October 7th mainly was finding a client that knows about Gaza and Palestine, [15:18] about the situation that's in, for the client to have that trust that you'll be able to provide consistent work throughout the day, [15:27] throughout the months, not having to worry about how electricity is, [15:30] and whether we'll have internet connection day in, day out. [15:33] And, of course, this got tenfold, if not hundredfold, after October 7th. [15:39] So, that has always been the challenge that we, as IT staff in Gaza, have faced. [15:46] But, thankfully, that's when we started seeing a rise in co-working spaces that host, whether it's like freelancers or university students, [15:57] to stay connected and stay on the grid to be able to build that trust with the clients that we serve. [16:03] Okay, well, in Gaza, being online isn't a given, right? [16:08] It's something people have to fight for. [16:10] People are still finding ways to connect and to work, even by launching other tech initiatives. [16:15] Let's take a look. [16:18] People in Gaza connecting internet. [16:19] They literally have to go so far up just to connect internet. [16:22] I mean, look at this. [16:22] My God, the view is pretty awesome, though. [16:24] That's crazy. [16:25] They're forced to do this. [16:26] There's literally no way to get internet other than this. [16:28] Spread this video around so the world can see how we're actually connecting internet here in Gaza. [16:32] Right now, technology is a lifeline in Gaza. [16:37] Youth and freelancers use platform, digital platform, and digital tools to access the global market [16:46] market and reach to new clients, and they can then make income online beyond borders. [16:54] So what is life like in Gaza right now when it comes to people trying to make a living, [17:00] trying to connect to the internet? [17:02] Can people set up their own, you know, systems? [17:07] Are they getting jobs? [17:07] I know your organization is helping train people to get those opportunities. [17:13] Is it working? [17:14] As far as we can. [17:19] We try to do as much as we can, right? [17:21] We do have challenges. [17:23] It is difficult to find co-working spaces that still have seats available, right? [17:29] Although there's a rise in co-working spaces, it's not fully filling the need that we face in Gaza. [17:36] So every cohort that we bring in to train, we go through that struggle of, okay, we're going to bring them to train, [17:44] but we can't trust their home connection. [17:47] Where can we send them? [17:49] What co-working spaces are available in which we can help these students learn and train with us? [17:55] And unfortunately, there happened to be multiple students, around 20 students across three cohorts, [18:01] where we had to be like, sorry, we can't really do anything right now. [18:04] Hopefully, once we find a place that we can help you with, that's when you can come back, [18:08] we can bring you back and join the next cohort, hopefully. [18:10] Technology is a double-edged sword, right? [18:13] We were just discussing with Paul there how it's being applied, accusations of how Israel is applying it in Gaza. [18:21] At the same time, it is a lifeline, getting online, being able to potentially, you know, create a business [18:27] or at least keep studying. [18:30] How would you describe what Israel is doing with technology in Gaza? [18:36] You know, there's been so many accusations. [18:37] It's testing out weapons. [18:38] It's using AI. [18:39] What are your thoughts on that? [18:44] Well, it are very, very conflicted, right? [18:46] Because we are being targeted by the same sector that we serve in or we work in. [18:51] So there's a huge conflict within our team, for example, at Yaffa Solution, [18:55] with which AI company should we use? [18:58] Should we go with Anthropic? [19:00] And we go and study their policies, according to Israel, [19:03] and if they are in partnerships with the IDF. [19:06] So it's definitely, like, we have an AI developer at Yaffa Solution, [19:10] and we have these conversations. [19:12] And, like, how do you feel they work on the same technology that killed your relatives [19:16] or killed people around you or friends and people that are close to you? [19:20] So it's definitely a big mental strain. [19:23] But, again, what is fascinating about Gazans is that we're so resilient [19:28] and we're just trying to, like, resist the circumstances that we are facing [19:32] with any material or any tool that we can get our hands on. [19:37] We are big prominence of the BDS movement, right, to boycott and divest and sanction. [19:42] But, unfortunately, in Gaza, boycotting is not an option. [19:45] Boycotting certainly is a privilege, right, and a luxury, if you put it that way, [19:49] if there's only one thing that's being controlled. [19:51] Gaza is so tightly controlled by Israel, right? [19:54] Not just now, way before October the 7th. [19:58] What are the challenges now, infrastructure-wise, technology-wise, life-wise? [20:03] I want to, like, maybe step back from the conversation we're having about technology [20:07] and ask you, you know, Iyad, as just an ordinary, wonderful, fascinating person, [20:15] just like any of us in Gaza, having gone through what you've gone through. [20:20] How do you see your life right now and moving forward? [20:25] Well, it's a standstill, right, because you can't plan further than tomorrow [20:30] because you never know what's going to happen tomorrow [20:32] and what's the plan going to be for two days after. [20:35] So you're always trying to live in the present. [20:39] And for me personally and for Iyad, my organisation, [20:42] we stopped working on October 7th, between October 7th and then June of 2024. [20:47] And during that time, it was, we felt that there was no meaning in life, right? [20:55] When you can't plan ahead, when you can't think of how you can run away, [20:58] so your only option is to live with what fate is giving you, [21:03] we ended up losing feeling value. [21:07] We ended up, we started feeling hate towards ourselves. [21:11] And then once we were able to get back to work in June, [21:14] we started feeling like, hey, at least I am bringing in some value. [21:17] So that kind of like gave us some balance and some life satisfaction in a genocide. [21:24] And that's basically what's keeping us sane till this moment. [21:30] Waking up in the morning, knowing that you have a job to do, [21:32] knowing that there's value that you need to add for your clients, to yourself, [21:36] is what's keeping us sane. [21:37] And, but another point that we need to be thinking of, [21:42] and I think it's not talked about enough, [21:44] is the enormous waves of PTSD that we are facing at the moment, [21:50] since the ceasefire started, right? [21:53] Well, the genocide didn't stop by the ceasefire, [21:57] but it's a bit safer at the moment. [22:00] But that fake sense of security is causing us to have some PTSD episodes [22:08] in which we are like, wait, I'm not used to not hearing the drone 24-7. [22:12] They haven't bombed in two to three hours. [22:16] And that is causing, [22:18] and that is something that the Gaza community as a whole is feeling, [22:21] but probably not talking about as much. [22:23] We have not processed what has happened in the last two, three years now. [22:30] And I don't know when we're going to be able to process everything that has happened. [22:35] Whenever we take a hit, we just move on, keep going, [22:38] just think about your day, [22:40] and just be thankful that you're alive. [22:42] And we don't really process all the horrors that we have gone through. [22:47] Yeah, so many of my friends in Gaza were saying that there was no time to grieve, [22:51] there was no time to process anything, [22:52] because the tragedies of the hell was just so fast, right? [22:58] Do you feel now the world is looking at Iran, [23:02] everything that's going on in the region, [23:04] do you feel that you guys have been forgotten a little bit in all of this? [23:10] Like, you know, you talk about the politics of what Trump has in mind for Gaza. [23:15] It's also, I don't even know how to describe it, uncertain, I suppose. [23:19] How do you see it? [23:20] Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. [23:24] And I think we started feeling to be forgotten by the international community, [23:29] not since the beginning of the conflict with Iran, between the US and Iran, [23:33] but since the ceasefire started. [23:35] It seemed to everyone that the ceasefire was a big success, [23:38] and we should be happy and okay, things are good in Gaza, [23:41] when the only thing that happened for the ceasefire is that people were like, [23:47] okay, you have a right to live now. [23:49] But that is not enough. [23:51] We are still living through a genocide. [23:53] We are still locked. [23:54] We are still being completely controlled by the state of Israel, [23:57] what comes in, what goes out, who comes in and who goes out. [24:01] So it is still going, [24:03] and it just seemed like everyone was giving themselves a pat on the back [24:06] once the ceasefire was signed and went into order. [24:09] But in fact, like, other than there's less bombardment than before, [24:14] nothing really changed. [24:16] Right, and most of Gaza has been destroyed, right? [24:19] Very, very difficult times, [24:20] and certainly something that no one should be forgetting. [24:23] There needs to be still a solution. [24:25] Yeah, that's all we have time for. [24:26] It's been a great conversation. [24:27] Thank you so much for joining us here today on the stream. [24:33] And thank you for watching from me and the entire stream team. [24:36] I'll see you soon.