Have the Democrats found a new strategy to scare Trump? — BBC Americast

[0:00] It's a state with a tiny population. It is surrounded mostly by Canada and by sea, [0:05] but suddenly the state of Maine is thrusting itself [0:08] into the very centre of America's political debate. Welcome to AmeriCast. [0:18] Hello, it's Justin in the worldwide headquarters of AmeriCast in London, England. [0:24] And it's Anthony in the American headquarters of AmeriCast in Washington, DC. [0:29] And Anthony, we've had a question from Rob in Somerset. Why are you getting so [0:33] animated about the midterms when they are seven months away? Surely so much can change [0:37] in that time, especially given Trump's unpredictability. [0:41] Yeah, I mean, I guess so, Rob. But the reality is that the candidates who are going to be [0:47] on the ballot in November are being chosen starting really last month. Then that's going to define the [0:55] contours of these races. So yes, a lot can change. And the party that's up or down can change based [1:00] on the economy and the war and everything else. But the people who are going to be campaigning, [1:04] the people who are making their pitch to the voters, we're finding out more about them now. [1:10] And in finding out more about them, I think we're going to find out just more about the parties [1:15] that are choosing them, what the Democrats are looking for in candidates and what the Republicans [1:19] are looking for in their candidates. Yeah, exactly right. And that's why we're going to concentrate [1:23] today on a particular battle in the state of Maine, but also on a particular candidate in that battle. [1:29] So he's not yet the Democratic candidate for the Senate seat in Maine, though it does look as if he [1:36] is going to be that candidate. And he brings with him all manner of controversy. And he's a fascinating [1:41] man in himself. And we'll get to Graham Plattner in just a second. Before we do, though, Anthony, [1:47] I was last in Maine when George H.W. Bush was president. And I have a T-shirt, [1:55] the Summer White House in Kennebunkport. At least I say I have a T-shirt. I think my daughter's [2:00] borrowed it and she hasn't given it back. So if she's listening, she might think of doing that. [2:04] But that was a long time ago. And my memory of it is that it's mainly forest and beautiful, [2:12] beautiful, staggeringly jagged coastline. Am I missing anything? [2:17] No, it is beautiful country. I mean, Kennebunkport, if you talk to Mainers, they'll say that's [2:22] downstate and that's practically Massachusetts. It's not real Maine. To get to real Maine, [2:27] you have to drive. It goes on and on. And as you mentioned, it gets rugged. It is sparsely [2:33] populated, very independent minded people there who don't live in big cities and cherish their kind of [2:42] outsider way of life. A lot of lobster fishermen, a lot of people depend on [2:46] the sea for their livelihood and a lot of people who move there or live there to get away from the [2:52] rest of the 49 continental states. It's quite a working class state, isn't it? Particularly in [2:58] land, people doing lumber jobs. I suppose there's a bit of tourism. What else is there in Maine? [3:04] Not much else. Tourism, some vacation homes, heavy on the maritime industries. Also, as you mentioned, [3:16] lumber. It is, as you say, a sparsely populated state. And that affects its politics, to be quite [3:24] honest. Maine tends to go to the beat of its own drum. There's an old saying, as go Maine, [3:29] so goes the nation. But the reality is Maine doesn't really reflect the mainstream politics. [3:36] It likes to think of themselves as separate from a lot of the national politics, which [3:41] is one of the reasons why this race is going to be interesting. Susan Collins, who is the Republican [3:48] senator from Maine, she is the only Republican statewide in Congress from all of New England. [3:55] So she's kind of like the last holdout. But she has been, over time, despite repeated Democratic [4:02] challenges, very popular. She has beaten back Democratic challenges. In 2020, there was a [4:10] candidate who was a member of Congress from Maine who ran against her, and she beat her handily. She's [4:16] won every race she's had. That reflects that Maine is a different kind of state, even as it is a very [4:23] important state, will be a very important state for who controls the United States Senate after [4:28] November's midterm elections. Right. Okay. So the Democrats then have a choice to make [4:33] when it comes to who they select in the primary, that happens pretty soon, to be the person potentially [4:41] with a real chance this November, you're saying, of getting Susan Collins out. And we should say Susan [4:47] Collins is in her late 70s, isn't she? I mean, she's been there since roughly. Early 70s. Yeah. [4:52] Early 70s. All right. I apologize. But still old. Early 70s. [4:55] You know, maybe not old for the Senate, not Senate old, but still, you know, when there's been a lot [5:01] of talk about generational change and the gerontocracy, she would serve, she said this will be her last [5:07] term, but it's a six year Senate term. She would be in the Senate until she's 79. Right. [5:13] So the choice the Democrats make then is between someone who is herself, definitely in her late [5:21] 70s, and this younger guy. And it looks, doesn't it, as if they're going to go for the younger guy, [5:28] this man called Graham Plattner, who brings with him all manner of controversies and potential pitfalls, [5:38] but is apparently very likely to win. What's going on then in the state of Maine when it comes to the [5:45] Democrats' choices? Yeah, it's been a fascinating race to watch because, as you said, Plattner's, [5:53] he's a novice in politics. He had, he's been an active voice maybe in some, some grassroots movements, [6:00] but not, he hasn't run for elected office, I believe, certainly not on a statewide level ever [6:05] before. He, he has, comes from an oyster farming background, which I talk about peak Maine kind [6:12] of a job and has played that up. He's ex-military. And, and as you also mentioned, he has a bit of a [6:20] past that people have been digging through. He's made controversial comments on social media, [6:26] on Reddit, uh, including saying that women shouldn't get blackout drunk because it could [6:31] expose them to sexual assault. He has a tattoo or had a tattoo on his chest dating back to his [6:36] military days, which kind of looks or looked like he's since had it removed, uh, looks like a, a Nazi [6:42] skull. Uh, and he only got it removed, uh, a few years ago, once it seemed like he was going to be [6:48] running for, uh, for office, uh, and he's made homophobic comments in the past. So, you know, [6:54] check definitely, uh, uh, the kind of history that you would think normally in a democratic race would, [7:00] uh, would be damaging, if not fatal. One of those things at least. Yeah. One, one, [7:05] one of them might be damaging. The whole lot of them would be, uh, terminal, but it's not this time [7:11] round. And I'm, I'm right in saying, aren't I, that at the moment he seems to be doing incredibly well. [7:15] Yeah. Yeah. I've been following the polls in this race and he has had a comfortable lead, uh, [7:20] pretty much throughout the past year. Uh, and a comfortable lead over Janet Mills, who, uh, [7:26] is the governor of Maine, who is one statewide. There is very popular. Uh, I don't know if you [7:32] remember Justin, uh, I think it was last year, uh, Donald Trump invited all the governors to the [7:37] White House, uh, part of the national government, the governor's association meetings. And it was Janet [7:42] Mills, who was in Washington DC last year, uh, for the national governor's association meetings. [7:47] They got into a spat with Donald Trump, uh, in the White House. Uh, and, uh, and we can listen [7:52] to a little bit of it now, but it definitely elevated her, her platform nationally. [7:57] Is the main here, the governor of Maine? Are you, uh, not going to comply with it? [8:05] Well, I'm, we are the federal law. Well, you better do it. You better do it because you're not going [8:10] to get any federal funding at all if you don't. And by the way, your population, even though it's [8:14] somewhat liberal, although I did very well there, uh, your population doesn't want men playing in [8:19] women's sports. So you better, you better comply because otherwise you're not getting any, any federal [8:25] funding. Every state. Good. I'll see you in court. I look forward to that. That should be a real easy [8:30] one and enjoy your life after governor. Cause I don't think you'll be in elected politics. [8:36] Well, he might be right actually on that. That was a row of course about whether, uh, biological males [8:42] should play in, uh, girls sports, uh, an issue where frankly, she is probably not in the majority [8:49] of American thinking, but it's an issue she chose to have a fight with the American president in quite [8:55] early in his term and very publicly. And it was the fight. It seems to me, Anthony, rather than the [9:00] issue that mattered to her, the fact that she could be seen to be standing up to him and doing it really [9:05] obviously and doing it kind of forcefully. And that really mattered to her. And that's why, um, [9:11] she thinks that she can be the candidate this time round, that, that she is the sort of anti-Trump. [9:18] She's able to, to be forceful with him. She's run the state, et cetera, et cetera. And that's her pitch. [9:24] It, it is interesting, isn't it though, that she is backed by a lot of the party bigwigs. [9:32] So you think of the, the minority leader, the Senate leader, Chuck Schumer, but also other, [9:37] um, moderates, if I can put that, that word in inverted commas, like, um, Andy Beshear, [9:42] the governor of Kentucky. So a, a Democrat who is used to winning and able to win and win well [9:50] in a broadly Republican area, which obviously Kentucky is. So that sort of wing of the party [9:56] is very much falling in behind her, but frankly, it doesn't seem to be doing her any good. [10:00] Not doing her any good in Maine. I, on paper, she looks like the perfect candidate, right? I mean, [10:06] she is one statewide in Maine. She, uh, has stood up to Donald Trump, as you mentioned, [10:11] which is something that a lot of Democrats, uh, uh, seem to like. She has a capability of raising [10:18] money up for this race because she has established fundraising networks. And so you can see why [10:23] people like Chuck Schumer and Andy Beshear and, and the rest of the Democratic establishment think that [10:28] she would be the perfect one to knock off Susan Collins, who has had a stranglehold on the seat [10:35] for quite some time. Uh, I think maybe voters in Maine are, are wanting to try something different. [10:40] I think the other big issue as, as we've alluded to already, uh, in this race is the issue of age. [10:46] She will be 79, uh, on inauguration day in 2027. She's 78 right now. Uh, so she would be serving [10:54] into her mid eighties if she wins this seat. Uh, Graham Plattner, I believe is 41. Uh, so the [11:00] contrast there for Democrats, and, and that's something I've heard over and over again, as I've [11:05] been traveling around the country this year and last year, uh, the concern for Democrats is they want [11:10] new blood, new generation. And I think that is definitely helping Plattner, uh, in this as well [11:16] as the fact that Plattner is kind of, uh, an iconoclast, someone different, someone who tells [11:20] it like it is, who says things that are controversial, but like we've seen with Donald Trump, that can be [11:25] a benefit saying, saying what you think and saying things that sometimes, uh, ticks people off, uh, [11:30] that wins over voters because they don't think that you're a professional politician, that you're [11:35] modulating your message just to win their vote. So, uh, it has been an interesting kind of [11:40] demonstration of, of these cross currents in the democratic party. Well, let's hear a bit from him, [11:46] starting with his campaign ad. My name is Graham Plattner and I'm running for U S Senate in Maine [11:51] to defeat Susan Collins, a decade of military service going overseas, farming oysters to feed my community, [11:58] diving to lend a hand to other fishermen, trying to start a family. But everywhere I've gone, [12:03] it seems like the fabric of what holds us together is being ripped apart by billionaires and corrupt [12:09] politicians, profiting off of destroying our environment, driving our families into poverty [12:14] and crushing the middle class. I did four infantry tours in the Marine Corps and the army. I'm not [12:20] afraid to name an enemy and the enemy is the oligarchy. It's the billionaires who pay for it, [12:24] the politicians who sell us out. Right. So he's very much an economic populist to put it mildly, [12:30] and he's backed his knee by Bernie Sanders, who everyone will recognize the former presidential [12:34] candidate himself is on the progressive left of the party by Elizabeth Warren too, isn't he? [12:39] So he's got, he's got heavyweight backers of his own on the left of the party. But the thing that [12:44] really strikes you about that advert, as you were saying, Anthony, he is a non politician, [12:51] politician. He is, he has nothing to do with politics or the political process. He is coming from [12:58] another place. And that is the fascinating thing, isn't it? About the choice that the Democrats are [13:03] making in Maine and why this choice does matter for the whole nation, doesn't it? Because it's a choice [13:10] in, in a way, a bit like the Zora Mamdani choice. I mean, it's not, they're not, not the same person [13:15] and it's not the same setup by any means at all, but you just, you just throw everything that you've got [13:21] out of the window and you start again and you say, I want a communicator and I want someone who excites [13:27] people. And that above all, never mind the policies, that above all is what matters. [13:32] Yeah. And, and that sells in Maine in particular. There's a congressman, he's, he's retiring. He's [13:38] leaving Congress now, but represents the rural half of Maine, Jared Golden, who is not Graham [13:44] Plattner. He's, he's a centrist, a moderate, but he presents similarly. He's ex-military. The first time I [13:51] met him, I was at a reception and he was standing there with a, holding a can of beer with a baby, [13:57] his youngest baby in a Bjorn on his chest. And he was wearing short sleeves and had an arm sleeve [14:02] of tattoos going all the way up to his shoulder. And I did not recognize him as a congressman, [14:09] but he's the kind of guy who can win in Maine and the Mainers seem to, to connect with. So in, [14:16] in that presentation and the style, if not the political substance, those are, those are two [14:22] people who seem to have really caught the eye of Maine voters. Let's listen to what Graham Plattner [14:27] himself says. So this is him defending himself against these criticisms, defending himself against [14:35] those who are attacking him for the things that he has done in his past, starting with his comments [14:41] on sexual assault. And he was talking to Pod Save America last year. I am not a secret Nazi. Actually, [14:48] if you read through my Reddit comments, I think you can pretty much figure out where I stand on Nazism [14:54] and anti-Semitism and racism in general. I would say a lifelong opponent. In 2007, I was a machine gun [15:04] section leader with Kilo Company, third battalion, eight Marines. We were on the 2-2 Mu. And it was [15:10] my third deployment. My previous two had been to Fallujah and then Ramadi, 2006. And we went ashore [15:17] and split Croatia, myself and a few of the other machine gun squad leaders. And we got very inebriated. [15:24] And we just, we did what Marines on Liberty do. And we decided to go get a tattoo. [15:29] And we went to a tattoo parlor in Split, Croatia. And we chose a terrifying looking skull and crossbones [15:37] off the wall because we were Marines. And, you know, skulls and crossbones are a pretty standard [15:43] military, military thing. At no point in this entire experience of my life did anybody ever once say, [15:51] hey, you're a Nazi. It never came up until we got wind that in the opposition research, [16:00] somebody was shopping the idea that I was a secret Nazi with a hidden Nazi tattoo. And I can honestly [16:06] say that if I was trying to hide it, I've not been doing a very good job for the past 18 years. [16:11] The thing that fascinates me there, Anthony, is when he says opposition research, [16:15] he's actually talking about Janet Mills, isn't he? So the viciousness with which the fight has been [16:21] fought on the Democratic side, certainly by her against him, has taken some breaths away. [16:28] Yeah. And I think it's a reflection of how high the stakes are here. This is a Senate seat that [16:34] Democrats really need to win if they want to have any hope of taking back the United States Senate. [16:39] They'd have to flip four seats. And the two that are the most obvious are North Carolina, [16:45] which the Democrat Governor Roy Cooper, former Governor Roy Cooper, doing quite well in, and [16:50] Maine. And then you have to start looking at places like Texas or Alaska or Ohio or Iowa. So it's much [16:56] more slim picking. So Maine has got a big target on it. So the Democrats really want to win this. And [17:02] this is bringing up all of that debate about what a winning candidate in this party looks like in 2026. [17:10] Janet Mills is an experienced politician. She, I'm sure, wants to win this seat. She has people who [17:17] think that she's the best candidate. She says she's the best one to take on Trump. But then you also [17:22] have progressives who are seeing this as a line in the sand. This is their chance to capitalize on the [17:28] victory of Zofran Mamdani that you mentioned, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, other prominent progressives. [17:35] And not only to be able to notch a win, but to notch a win in a swing state, in a battleground state, [17:43] to show that their populist economic platform can be one that can win key races for the Democrats. And [17:55] they're not going to be tanking this. This is not some sort of an ideological battle. This is a [18:01] practical battle that they can win. Okay, so the stakes are high. But even when the stakes are high, [18:08] I must say, I'll ask you this in a second, Anthony, but it really surprised me when I was going through [18:15] some of the ads that Janet Mills has put up against Graham Plattner. Just the viciousness, [18:21] the personal attack of it all seemed to me to be, well, if not off the scale, then highly unusual. [18:30] And you might tell me in a second that I'm wrong in this. But let's just listen to one of the things, [18:34] one of the attack ads that Janet Mills has been playing again and again on television in the state [18:40] of Maine about her opponent. Did you know Graham Plattner wrote that women worried about rape [18:45] need to quote, Not get so up they wind up having sex with someone they don't mean to. [18:49] Disgusting. Plattner wrote to avoid rape, women should quote, Act like an adult for sake. [18:55] Graham Plattner, seriously. We blame the victim. That's a horrible thing to say. Disqualifying. [19:00] I have not seen this. He's a bully. This guy gives off a vibe. Just no way I could vote for you. [19:05] No. Graham Plattner, the closer you look, the worse it gets. I'm Janet Mills, [19:10] and I approve this message. Yeah. I mean, that's a pretty vicious attack ad. I mean, [19:16] I've seen a lot of campaigns and a lot of nasty attack ads. That is definitely up there. They're [19:22] using his words against him. And part of the reason is that Plattner is a political novice. [19:27] So, and he's running on who he is as much as what he wants to do. I mean, we heard the ad he had before [19:37] talking about being an oyster farmer, talking about his military background. So I think the playbook [19:43] for taking down someone who is running on their personality, on their character is to go straight [19:50] after that. Now, is this going to be one of those instances where the two of them tear each other [19:55] apart? And Plattner, if he does win, and it looks like he's going to win the nomination, is so damaged [20:01] that Susan Collins is going to be able to, again, coast to victory. I mean, that's definitely a [20:06] possibility. And I don't know what Democrats here in Washington, people like Chuck Schumer, are thinking [20:11] about this. But they have to start wondering, how much can we let Plattner get bloodied up if none of [20:17] this is making a dent on him? We need to start focusing on taking on Susan Collins. [20:22] Right. Anthony, that is a great moment at which to bring in someone who knows Graham Plattner [20:26] actually a lot better than either of us do. Josh Keefe is on the line. He's a reporter for the [20:30] non-profit Maine Monitor. Even more important than that, Josh actually went to school with Graham Plattner. [20:38] Josh, hello. Hey, how are you doing? Thanks for having me on. [20:41] Good. Thank you so much for coming on. What was he like at school? [20:45] Oh, he was sort of a, he was sort of a rebel. He was a guy, he was a kid who had a lot of strong [20:52] beliefs very early. He was like, I was in classes with him and, you know, he would bring up geopolitical, [20:58] geopolitical conflicts that I don't think any of us had heard of. I think he was probably the first [21:03] person I ever heard reference Chechnya. But yeah, he ran for, you know, class president. [21:10] Um, I remember he had, uh, like overalls and a red armband. It was kind of like a joke, socialist revolution [21:17] type of thing. Um, he, we voted him most likely to start a revolution, um, in our, in our senior yearbook, [21:25] which maybe he's doing. Yeah. Yeah. He put that out there, that yearbook picture, um, early on in his campaign, [21:33] which is funny to, to see that kind of go viral and, and have also have the yearbook, you know, [21:38] you know, in a box under your bed somewhere. But it's interesting to already, Josh, we're getting [21:43] a picture because we've just been talking about how he comes from outside the political tradition [21:47] and he hasn't run for office before. And he was a soldier and, and the Marine and all the rest of it. [21:53] But actually you're saying when it comes to taking an interest in kind of public life, [21:59] he's been doing it since he was quite young. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. Cause it's, [22:04] you know, I think when you, you know, I mean, we're the same age as me and Graham, we're 41. [22:09] And I think, you know, you haven't seen somebody for 20 years and you hear they're running for [22:13] Senate. Um, I think a lot of people would think back to that high school version and say like, [22:17] Oh, that guy, like, how's that? But I think for all of us who like went to school with them, [22:22] seeing him now, it's like, yeah, of course, like that makes perfect sense. That's the same, [22:26] the same guy we remember. [22:27] I wonder if it's not just that he's authentic, Josh, it's also that he is damaged. And, [22:32] and as he himself says, he's in pain. He's a veteran. He suffered from PTSD. He's, [22:39] he's got this kind of side to him that is raw and ragged and damaged. And I, I just wonder whether [22:47] that actually is the key to his popularity in Maine and potentially more widely as well. [22:54] I think, you know, it's interesting you say that, you know, when I, when I ask people, [22:58] um, voters about, you know, his controversies, you know, the, the, the, the tattoo, [23:04] a lot, some of the offensive Reddit comments, um, they often reply, um, by talking about themselves, [23:12] right? So it's like, Oh, that tattoo. Yeah. I have dumb tattoos. I get it. You know, I've said dumb stuff. [23:18] And I think it, it, it, it really helps, um, paint a picture of somebody who's not a politician, [23:25] you know, who's kind of one of us, who's, who's broken and made mistakes and isn't trying, [23:29] hasn't been trying to live their life to build a political resume because, because he hasn't. [23:34] God, I mean, that really do, when you use those words, I'm just thinking about Donald Trump and [23:40] I'm thinking not, not really about 2024. I'm thinking about 2016 and all those people who, [23:46] many of whom had never voted before. He came out for him and he said, yeah, I know he, he cusses and [23:51] he says all sorts of things and he's got these weird things in his past and he's, and he's been, [23:56] he's behaved badly with women and all the rest of it. But Hey, he tells it like it is, you know, [24:01] he tells our story, feels our pain and that there is a similarity there, isn't there? Maybe it's just [24:06] in Trumpian times. This is, this is a candidate that can work. Well, I think, you know, and Plattner [24:11] talks about this. He, he says, you know, the reason Trump is successful, has been successful [24:19] is because he is identifying, um, frustrations that people have with the system. They feel like that [24:25] there is, you know, an elite in this country that is sort of screwing them. Right. And, and Plattner [24:34] says Trump is, is right about that. He's just identifying the wrong groups of people. I mean, [24:40] Trump is blaming immigrants and trans people, for example. Um, but, but, you know, because the [24:48] Democrats have allowed that pain to kind of exist in a vacuum and haven't identified the enemy, [24:53] um, you know, people turn to that explanation. So what Plattner is saying is, listen, we need to [25:00] identify who is actually harming the working class. Um, and you know, he argues that it's, [25:06] it's corporate interests. It's the rich, it's the wealthy. It's kind of the, the Bernie Sanders, [25:10] um, explanation. Justin and I were talking about Janet Mills and her resume. She's the kind of [25:16] candidate that looks great on paper. She's won statewide in Maine, a long record of public service. [25:22] Uh, she stood up to Donald Trump in the white house last year. Why is she not catching fire? Or [25:29] is it more that Plattner is than any specific failings of hers? I mean, it's really hard to, [25:35] to talk about this race and not talk about the age issue. Right. Um, Janet Mills will be, if she, [25:42] if she's elected, she will be the oldest freshman Senator in American history at 79 years old. Um, [25:47] um, and I think in a post, you know, Joe Biden world, that's, that's just really tough to overcome. [25:55] Um, you know, I, I've, I've been struck by how many voters I've talked to older voters who really [26:02] like Janet Mills, who think she's been a great governor. They say, you know, I love Janet Mills. [26:07] She's done a great job in Augusta, but I think it's time for some new voices. Um, I think it's time to [26:13] sort of turn it over to the younger generation. But the other thing though, I think is what I've, [26:18] I've been struck by is she kind of is running this campaign that I'm going to stand up to Trump. [26:23] You know, it's sort of a, it's a little bit of a Trump focused campaign. What Plattner saying is, [26:29] is listen, we need to create a society where a Donald Trump can't happen. As in, we need to, [26:37] to create, um, we need to support the working class and support working people in this country. [26:41] So the anger isn't there that gives the fuel to Trumpism. And so I think it's sort of, uh, [26:47] Plattner is offering this kind of post Trump vision of the democratic party. And I think Mills is [26:52] continuing to sort of fight Trump, um, you know, quite frankly, in a way that Democrats have done [26:58] for a while now, and it hasn't really worked. The other thing that really strikes me about [27:02] Graham Plattner and his platform, and we've said he's, he's an economic populist, et cetera, et cetera. [27:08] But when you look at what those economic populist policies are, they are things like universal [27:16] healthcare, aren't they? Universal education, all the way through to university, all the kind of [27:20] things. It's a sort of European style stuff that, uh, that the Democrats, if they can marry that, [27:31] which you sort of associate with the metropolitan side of the party and the progressive left kind of [27:37] trendy side of the party, the right on the woke side of the party, if they can marry that with a [27:44] guy who's got a questionable tattoo and all sorts of previously questionable views on all sorts of [27:53] groups, including women and gay people and all the rest of it, they can marry all of that together, [27:57] that kind of rough ready side. Um, that that's a model of a sort, isn't it? Not just in Maine, [28:04] in other places where they need to, to appeal to working class rural voters who are the ones who [28:11] they've lost in recent years. Yeah. I mean, Plattner's argument is that if you, if you just [28:16] focus on people's material needs, um, you can win over a lot of the sort of Trump voters, you know, [28:25] a lot of the middle, a lot of the working class. I mean, his argument is that Democrats have abandoned [28:29] in the working class. Um, and you know, I think there's a lot of Democrat, right? There's a lot [28:35] of Democrat consultant talk or whatever, but how do we woo the working class back? How do we, [28:39] what's the message, you know? And what he's saying isn't that we need to woo the working class. Like [28:44] he's openly saying the working class needs to take over the democratic party and use it to, to build [28:51] power. That was fascinating, Josh, a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much, um, for, [28:56] for taking the time to talk to us, uh, and to bring us information, not just as a journalist, [29:02] but also, well, as you say, you haven't known him for some years, but you knew him when you were [29:06] young and that was fascinating as well. Thanks so much for having me. Appreciate it. [29:09] That's it for today. If you want to listen to any of our other episodes, you can, [29:13] you can find them wherever you get your podcasts. Bye-bye.