Has Israeli society become conditioned to permanent war? — Inside Story

[0:00] A negative, political and public reaction in Israel to the ceasefire with Iran, regardless of the respite it brings. [0:09] No pause for Israel's army, however, or its victims. [0:12] Hundreds killed in Lebanon and more dead in Gaza. [0:15] Has Israeli society become conditioned to permanent war? [0:19] This is Inside Story. [0:37] Hello, welcome to the program. I'm Tom McRae. [0:39] Ceasefires usually bring relief and celebration, but not in Israel, it seems, [0:44] as hostilities with Iran have been paused for talks. [0:48] Reports suggest Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was pressured into the truce by U.S. President Donald Trump. [0:54] Since then, Netanyahu's faced the wrath of opposition politicians and a negative reaction in opinion polls. [1:00] But war has not stopped. [1:02] This week, Israeli attacks killed hundreds across Lebanon. [1:05] In Gaza, the killing continues. [1:08] War has been ever-present since Israel's foundation. [1:10] So what does a constant war footing mean for Israeli society? [1:15] Has it become one virtually at permanent war? [1:18] And what's that mean for its future direction and the region? [1:22] We'll discuss this with our guests shortly. [1:24] But first, this report from Imran Ula Khan. [1:29] Even after the U.S. announced a two-week ceasefire with Iran on Tuesday, [1:33] Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel's attacks could resume at any point. [1:37] We have more goals to complete, and we will achieve them, either by an agreement or by renewing the fighting. [1:45] We are prepared to return to fighting at any moment necessary. [1:49] Our finger is on the trigger. [1:51] But with the war garnering high levels of support in Israel, [1:55] the opposition has framed the truce as a major setback for Netanyahu. [1:58] The people of Israel showed national resilience and determination. [2:05] We inflicted serious damage on Iran. [2:08] Precisely because of that, the total failure stands out even more. [2:12] What happened here is a diplomatic disaster on a scale I do not recall. [2:18] The first opinion poll in Israel after the ceasefire with Iran [2:21] showed 63 percent dissatisfied with the results of the war. [2:25] Well, nobody likes wars, but I don't know if it's really a ceasefire, [2:32] because, I don't know, they bombed us, civilians, we bombed them, mostly military, [2:40] and now what? There's no endgame. [2:45] What has actually been achieved in this war so far? [2:48] Aside from weakening and delaying the production of missiles or nuclear weapons, [2:53] nothing has yet been achieved. [2:54] The pause in Israeli strikes on Iran has come with an escalation on another front. [3:02] On Wednesday, within a 10-minute span, [3:04] the Israeli military launched 100 strikes across Lebanon. [3:08] They hit dozens of targets, including in the capital, Beirut, [3:11] causing mass civilian casualties. [3:14] Israel maintains it was targeting Hezbollah sites. [3:17] Since its founding nearly 80 years ago, [3:20] Israel has been in a state of near-perpetual war, [3:23] not just in Lebanon and Iran. [3:24] It's attacked countries across the region, [3:27] including Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen. [3:31] But its military force has most often targeted occupied Palestine. [3:36] In October 2023, those attacks escalated into a genocidal war on the Gaza Strip. [3:42] More than 72,000 people were killed, [3:45] and civilian infrastructure was decimated. [3:48] 90% of the population, or around 1.9 million people, [3:52] have been displaced from their homes, [3:54] many of which have been destroyed. [3:56] Destruction and devastation, the signature of Israel's presence. [4:01] Imran al-Akhan, Al Jazeera, for Inside Story. [4:09] Let's bring in our guest now. [4:10] In Exeter in the UK is Ilan Pape, [4:13] a historian and professor at Exeter University. [4:16] In Tel Aviv is Gideon Levy, a columnist at Haritz newspaper. [4:20] And in London is Haim Brashith, [4:22] a professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies, [4:25] the University of London. [4:27] Thanks so much for being with us here on Inside Story today. [4:29] We really do appreciate it. [4:30] Professor Brashith, if I can begin with you. [4:33] We've seen Israeli opposition politicians describe the Iran ceasefire as a disaster. [4:38] We know the government, led by Netanyahu, is deeply opposed to it as well. [4:42] In most countries, the end of a war brings some sort of relief, no matter how fragile. [4:49] Why in Israel does it appear to apparently bring on a crisis? [4:54] Well, this is not an end to the war by a long chalk, and people understand this. [5:02] This is not even a ceasefire at the moment, because Israel is firing at Lebanon. [5:09] And if President Trump is unable or unwilling to stop this, [5:17] that reflects a weakness which he doesn't like. [5:21] So, I think many people in Israel now believe that Netanyahu has brought them into a situation [5:30] which is impossible. [5:31] They're facing the brink. [5:33] They are at the cliff edge, because not only is Netanyahu attacked by the opposition in Israel, [5:42] he's now increasingly attacked by American politicians. [5:46] And the American public, as opposed to the Israeli public, is totally opposed to the war. [5:52] The Americans oppose the war in much higher percentages than the Israelis support it. [5:59] The Israeli support has gone down from about 85% to 62%, and it will continue to go down, [6:07] because people understand, as we heard in the clip, that nothing was achieved. [6:12] And this war had only delivered a war forever for Netanyahu that needs this in order to stay in power. [6:22] So, I think both in America and in Israel, growing opposition to Netanyahu is likely to put him [6:31] into an impossible position. [6:33] People understand that this is not done in the interest of Israelis or Americans or anybody else, [6:41] and they will blame Trump for being led by Netanyahu into an impossible position, [6:47] in which this is the first defeat that the Americans have suffered since the war in Vietnam. [6:54] It's not going to make anyone happy in the United States. [6:58] And as they turn the fire on Trump, he will deflect it onto Netanyahu. [7:06] I think that is quite clear. [7:09] Okay, we'll obviously wait to see how it all plays out. [7:11] Gideon Levy, you've previously said that there are North Korean levels of support for the war. [7:17] Is there a genuine, deeply held public consent for this ongoing, permanent state of conflict? [7:24] Do people actually want it, or are they simply too afraid to speak out against it? [7:32] We had today in Haaretz excellent peace claiming that Israel and Israelis are addicted to war. [7:39] And this might be a good explanation. [7:42] I don't think that people are happy about war, [7:45] but Israelis perceive wars as an opportunity in many cases. [7:51] War in Gaza was an opportunity for the settlers. [7:54] This war is an opportunity to get rid of the regime in Iran, [7:59] no matter how achievable it is, but it is an opportunity. [8:03] Other people see it as an earthquake, as a force majeure, [8:07] which, you know, you can't do much about it. [8:10] There are, in certain places around the globe, earthquakes or other volcano explosions once in a few years. [8:20] Israel possesses wars once in a few years, [8:23] and people almost normalized it and think the way it should be, [8:29] while none of those assumptions is right. [8:32] Those are wars of choice in which most of them Israel choose them, [8:37] and in most of them Israel didn't gain anything by the end of them. [8:42] But something brings Israelis again and again to support wars [8:48] with a much bigger majority and enthusiasm, [8:53] rather than if you try to suggest diplomatic process, compromise, [8:59] God forbid the peace agreement, [9:01] then you will find the majority shrinks into a minority. [9:05] I guess that's what we're trying to get here, is to try and figure out why. [9:09] Why, like you say, Gideon, Israelis are addicted to war. [9:15] Professor Pape, do you agree with that sentiment? [9:17] And can you, I guess, try and explain that for people that might not really understand that in any way? [9:25] Yes, well, I think Gideon gave quite a very good analysis for it. [9:30] It's a jingoistic society, and jingoistic societies, first of all, get excited by war. [9:37] It creates a false sense of unity in a society which is not very united and diversified. [9:46] It creates a detraction and deflection for politicians and sections of society from other problems. [9:56] So part of it is even mass psychology that we have encountered in the past in societies such as in Prussia [10:07] and later in Germany and Italy, and to a certain extent in Britain, in certain periods of Britain's history. [10:14] So this is something that we are familiar with. [10:17] It's not unique to Israel. [10:20] What is unique in a sense is that among the people who should provide a more profound analysis, [10:29] whether it's journalists, of course, Gideon is not the example for that, [10:34] whether it's journalists, academics, people who should provide a more profound analysis, [10:41] you hardly hear the connection between the ideology of the state, the history, the historical context, [10:51] and the continued violence that Israelis find themselves again and again in one cycle after the other. [11:00] So I don't think that there is any internal dynamics that would bring a change in this Israeli attitude. [11:08] People in Israel would complain that the war was not successful. [11:12] But when the opposition leader says the war was not successful, it doesn't mean he was against the war. [11:18] He thought that he would have managed the war better. [11:21] And this is something Netanyahu can capitalize on. [11:25] He has enough time until the elections to make it seem that eventually the narrative, [11:32] and he will try to control the narrative that all in all, as Gideon said, it's force majeure and we did all we could. [11:40] And it's much better to have me as a captain of the ship than anyone else. [11:44] Professor Brashith, is Israel becoming more extreme over the last decade or so? [11:51] Because is there any real willingness within society to try and find an end to these conflicts, [11:57] to try and find some sort of lasting peace for Israel? [12:01] I don't think that's even on the cards. [12:05] You're right. [12:07] Israel is becoming more extreme because others allow it to do so. [12:14] And the arrival of Trump in the White House is a great opportunity for Netanyahu, [12:21] and he grasped it immediately. [12:23] Because before that, when he tried for a war with Iran, with other U.S. presidents, he failed. [12:34] The biggest failure was with Obama, of course, who crafted an agreement designed to stop Israel from pushing for a war. [12:43] But, of course, immediately after Obama has left his position, Trump has given Israel a hope. [12:53] And his second period in the White House was understood by Netanyahu as the window of opportunity, [13:05] and he started immediately using it. [13:08] So, this is why it was, you know, Israel has become much more extreme than before since the beginning of the second period of Trump, [13:22] because it's possible to do things that were not possible before. [13:27] And he used it very, very well. [13:29] I mean, I don't think Trump would have gone to war with Iran before Netanyahu has made it a reality for him. [13:40] Netanyahu and David Barnea, the head of Mossad, have sold in the war as a four-day exercise that will include the regime change. [13:50] Now, look at it. Iran is controlling the straits, which it didn't militarily before. [14:00] It's controlling the in and out. [14:02] It has destroyed all the bases of the United States in Arabia and the GCC. [14:11] It's quite clear that neither Israel nor the United States have achieved their objectives, [14:19] and yet, as Netanyahu said, he has created a new Sparta. [14:25] Israel is the new Sparta, and it is now in the hands of the most extreme government, [14:31] and the people of Israel are supporting the wars that this government is initiating. [14:38] So, yes, it is a very extreme society. [14:43] Gideon, just on that point, does the level of military force [14:47] that we have seen recently from Israel actually even end threats, [14:51] whether it's against Iran, Hamas or Hezbollah, [14:54] has there been any sort of realisation that they can't be eliminated outright, [14:59] because we have not seen that in any of those circumstances, [15:02] and that it's really inevitable that it's just going to lead to this forever type of war? [15:07] Yeah, unfortunately it's so. [15:12] Look, Tom, around the Middle East, there are right now 6 million uprooted people [15:20] who lost their homes, part of them forever, [15:24] wandering from here to there as refugees living in tents, [15:29] 2 million in Gaza, 1 million in Lebanon, 3 million in Tehran. [15:35] Israel thinks that this is normal, that this is an inevitable outcome of this war, of any war. [15:45] In the same time, Israelis normalise this reality of running and rushing to the shelters, [15:51] even for themselves, as something normal. [15:55] And then comes this support that we mentioned before, [15:59] and all this together creates a profile of sickness. [16:04] I have no other word to describe it, sickness. [16:07] Getting used to wars, getting addicted to wars, [16:11] getting this belief that they are inevitable, [16:15] and getting this belief, which is a long time in Israel's cycle, [16:20] that Israel has the right to do whatever it wants, [16:23] and it can live on its sword forever. [16:26] So all those beliefs together create a very problematic, to say the least, [16:33] very problematic profile of Israel, profile of the Israeli society right now. [16:38] It should worry any Israeli. [16:41] Professor Pape, Israel is a society where we've almost every, [16:46] or the vast majority of every adult has actually served in the military. [16:50] In Gaza, we've seen Israeli soldiers take to social media [16:54] and post all sorts of horrendous acts, [16:57] basically showing off their exploits, [17:00] they're bragging almost about the destruction that they've caused there. [17:04] Does that show the kind of status and currency [17:07] the Israeli military has in Israeli society? [17:12] Well, Tom, I think this is a far, [17:15] it's a long-term feature of the Israeli society, [17:21] elite and society at large, [17:24] of their perceptions of the Palestinians [17:27] and their attitude towards the Palestinians. [17:30] In one word, you can call it dehumanization. [17:33] The very idea that you can dehumanize the Palestinians [17:38] would lead later on to the symptoms that you are talking about, [17:43] not being worried about showing the kind of atrocities [17:48] that are being committed and even brag about them. [17:52] So I do think we have to take it into account [17:54] that this is part of what settler colonial projects [17:59] like Israel and Zionism look like [18:02] when you examine them [18:03] and their attitude towards the indigenous local population. [18:08] You cannot massively expel half of Palestine's population in 1948 [18:13] if you don't dehumanize it first in your own mindset. [18:17] And similarly, you cannot impose on the Palestinians [18:22] the kind of repertoire of war crimes [18:26] and now also crimes against humanity [18:29] unless you dehumanize them. [18:31] So I do think that from an Israeli perspective, [18:35] media, culture, society, [18:38] this is not something that they are worrying about. [18:43] There's no moral inhibition. [18:45] And it is accepted, as Gidon also said, [18:49] as something that is normal, [18:52] not only normal in the sense [18:54] that they have to be in a constant [18:56] and perpetual cycle of violence [19:00] against the indigenous people [19:03] and those who support them, [19:05] but that in the fight against them, [19:08] which from an Israeli perspective [19:10] would be an existential fight, [19:13] you are fighting people who are savages, [19:17] people who are anti-Semites. [19:19] The reference changes with time, [19:22] but the basic idea is [19:24] that you are facing the worst kind of people, [19:29] and therefore you are entitled [19:32] to use every method at your disposal. [19:37] I'm generalizing here. [19:40] Fortunately, not every Israeli Jew thinks like that, [19:43] not every Israeli Jewish politician thinks like that, [19:46] but the vast majority [19:48] who go through the Israeli educational system, [19:51] through the socialization [19:52] that comes through the army and the media, [19:55] have this kind of perception of the Palestinians, [19:59] and therefore there was this kind of support [20:02] for the genocide, [20:03] and therefore there is no empathy whatsoever [20:06] for the million Lebanese that were displaced [20:10] or the three million Iranians who were displaced. [20:13] On the contrary, [20:14] the push for the government [20:16] is to continue with these policies, [20:19] and again, we have to come back to that point. [20:22] The criticism in Israel is not about the war, [20:25] but about the performance in the war. [20:27] Yeah, the way it's being done. [20:29] That it was about the war itself, [20:31] but it's not about the war. [20:32] Right. [20:33] It's about the way it was executed. [20:35] Indeed. [20:36] Professor Brasheeth, [20:37] just staying with the power of the media, [20:41] we heard there almost saying [20:44] that people have been indoctrinated [20:48] or maybe even brainwashed over decades. [20:51] Is that how you see it? [20:52] Has it gone that far, do you think? [20:54] Well, I think that a group of people, [20:59] a nation, [21:02] which practices genocide for two and a half years [21:06] without a break [21:07] and without a thought about what it means, [21:11] is actually now in collective dissonance. [21:17] they are actually harmed to a degree [21:22] that they don't even see reality. [21:26] Some of the material that you showed showed the glee [21:30] with which they bomb universities, bomb hospitals, [21:35] and send them as a kind of happy anniversary to their wife [21:42] or happy birthday to their daughter, etc. [21:45] This has happened in thousands of cases, [21:48] but the people who see those clips are not just the wife or the daughter, [21:54] but the rest of humanity. [21:55] So, they have lost any human reactions to disaster, [22:05] even to disaster that they are causing themselves. [22:08] And the use of media, which was not available in other generations, [22:13] but now it is, every sadist blowing up a hospital can share it with the rest of humanity. [22:20] So, while Israelis are coarsened by this experience and become immune to it, [22:27] the rest of humanity is now seeing Israel for what it is for the first time. [22:33] So, after two and a half years of this experience [22:38] of destroying tens of thousands, [22:41] maybe now hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, [22:45] what do few thousand people mean in Iran or in Syria or in Lebanon, etc.? [22:53] They don't mean anything. [22:54] This is just more dead people. [22:57] So, Israel has turned into a chaos engine of the West. [23:01] It is sawing death and destruction everywhere it goes and is proud of it. [23:08] This is very sick, as Gideon pointed out. [23:11] A chaos engine of the West. [23:13] Gideon, can Israel change? [23:16] Can Israeli society change? [23:17] Is there a version of the country that could at some point actually choose peace? [23:23] And what will it actually take to get there? [23:25] Absolutely, Tom. Israel can change. [23:30] And unfortunately, it seems that it will change, but for the bit. [23:35] All the signs show that the younger generation is much more nationalistic, [23:42] racist, ignorant in many cases, violent, militaristic, you see it in the polls, also religious. [23:52] Don't forget that the demography is also playing a role in Israel, [23:56] and the ultra-orthodox and the national religious settlers are growing in figures that the secular [24:07] will become a minority in this country within very few years. [24:11] And then the change will be obvious. [24:13] It cannot be a positive change when this is the demography. [24:18] Now, what we also lack is an alternative. [24:21] I mean, Israelis, young and old, don't see any alternative. [24:25] Because we have Netanyahu, who is the most hated and the most beloved politician ever in Israel. [24:32] And then there is a so-called opposition, which basically doesn't offer any alternative. [24:39] They are in favor of the war, in favor of the occupation, in favor of the genocide, [24:44] in favor of the transfer, in favor of the apartheid. [24:48] So what kind of an alternative for change? [24:52] You need, first of all, some kind of leadership. [24:55] Okay. [24:56] Right now in Israel, there is no leadership for positive change. [25:00] By all means, not. [25:01] Professor Pape, are you as pessimistic as Gideon is about the near future of Israel? [25:07] And what, if anything, could potentially break that cycle? [25:13] I'm pessimistic about the near future. [25:16] I'm not pessimistic about the long-term future. [25:20] But not because I think there will be a change from within Israel. [25:24] But I think that, as Chaim pointed out, the world is watching. [25:28] Now, it's true that the political elites of the world are watching [25:33] and are indifferent, in some cases even complicit in what's happening, but not the societies. [25:39] And the elites we have today are not necessarily the elites we will have tomorrow, either in the region or in the world. [25:47] So I think in the long term, this project, especially in its present shape, is not sustainable. [25:55] And it will collapse. [25:57] The question is, how will it collapse? [26:01] Will it be a decolonization and liberation that is violent? [26:06] Is it possible to make it a less violent process of change, a regime change? [26:12] All of these are something that we cannot know. [26:16] But we definitely understand that the collapse is on its way. [26:21] The big question is, does it create a void that would be immediately filled by the Palestinian liberation movement? [26:29] Will the region and the world be constructive in their involvement in that process? [26:34] Will the region and the world be a bit more effective in this way? [26:39] I'm afraid that Gidon and Chaim are correct about the next two or three years. [26:42] But strategically speaking and historically speaking from every other president that we know, [26:49] this kind of behavior, this kind of society, [26:53] this kind of rogue states are not sustainable in the long run. [26:57] Thank you so much, all three of you. [27:00] We really do appreciate your time, your insight [27:03] is so invaluable to us here on Inside Story [27:06] as well as all of our viewers watching around the world. [27:09] Thank you, Professor Pape, Gideon Levy [27:10] and Professor Brasheath once again for being with us today. [27:14] Well, thank you too for watching. [27:16] You can see the programme again anytime [27:17] by visiting our website, that is aljazeera.com. [27:20] For further discussion, go to our Facebook page, [27:23] that is facebook.com forward slash AJ Inside Story. [27:26] You can also join the conversation on X. [27:28] Our handle is at AJ Inside Story. [27:31] For me, Tom McRae and the entire team here, that's it for now. 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