‘Grief is a badge of love’: Rachel and Jon Goldberg-Polin on the death of their son Hersh

[0:00] Welcome to All There Is. Years ago, I read a book called Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, [0:06] and it's become a really important book for me. It's about his experience in Nazi concentration [0:11] camps. It's really a book about survival. Frankl wrote, most men in a concentration camp believe [0:17] that the real opportunities of life had passed, yet in reality, there was an opportunity and a [0:23] challenge. One can make a victory of those experiences, turning life into an inner triumph, [0:28] or one could ignore the challenge and simply vegetate. Frankl said that any attempt to restore [0:34] a man's inner strength in the camp had first to succeed in showing him some future goal. [0:39] He quoted Friedrich Nietzsche's words, he who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. [0:46] Whenever there was an opportunity for it, Frankl wrote, one had to give them a why, an aim for [0:51] their lives in order to strengthen them to bear the terrible how of their existence. We had to learn, [0:57] he says, ourselves and furthermore, we had to teach the despairing men that it did not really matter [1:03] what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. Now, that book written in 1946 [1:10] has helped me and millions of people. It also helped a 23-year-old man named Hirsch Goldberg Polin [1:16] when he was maimed and taken hostage by Hamas on October 7th. Hirsch was executed 328 days later, [1:23] but his mom, Rachel, now carries that book, Man's Search for Meaning, wherever she goes. [1:28] She's written a book now about her grief and pain, which is out. It's called When We See You Again. [1:34] I sat down with Rachel and her husband, Hirsch's dad, John, several days ago. [1:39] You divide your life between what you call the before and the after. You're in the after now. [1:45] Yes. From the second that Hirsch was stolen, we plummeted down this rabbit hole odyssey of curvy torment, [1:59] first for 330 days, and then once Hirsch was murdered and we found out about that, [2:08] we entered even another layer of otherness within this different world that we've been in. [2:18] And that's where we live now. [2:19] There's not one moment in my life now that Hirsch is not on my mind. It's constant, [2:27] and I suspect it will always be that. [2:31] What is that feeling? [2:33] It's the whole gamut. It's deep longing to smiling as I remember, something as simple as sitting on the [2:42] couch and talking to him, but it's always there. [2:45] I really start my day. The first words out of my mouth are to him while I'm still in bed, [2:53] before I start my morning prayers. And there's a lot of dialogue throughout the day, [2:58] and he's very present. And his presence is really a comfort, and it's a reminder of this delicious [3:11] blessing of having had him. I don't associate him with the sadness, but then there's this longing, [3:19] like I am hungry for him, like I am thirsty for him. And this craving that I think intensifies. It [3:29] doesn't lessen. There are people who say, well, if you're still grieving after X amount of time, [3:35] then you have a disorder. Yes, I do. And I'm really proud of it. And I thought that etymology [3:40] of disorder, dis from the Latin means opposite, disease or disagree or what have you. And so [3:49] disorder, I am out of order. And my life in many ways was out of order because I buried my son. [3:57] That's out of order. It's not unique. There are millions of people who have buried their children. [4:03] I'm not saying I'm different. I'm just saying I have a disorder and I actually embrace it. [4:08] I'm proud that I'm feeling out of order because of the love. That's why it's so painful. [4:16] It's a sign to you of the amount of love you have for him. [4:20] Yes. The reason that I'm in this constant state of yearning is because of the love. The grief is [4:33] a badge of love because it is the love that is continuing to grow in the absence of the person [4:39] that we adore. And that's a price I'm willing to pay. [4:44] I spend zero time trying to work on not grieving. What I work on is embracing the grieving, [4:54] but also at the same time being able to smile, find joy, celebrate, etc. Not in place of, [5:01] in addition to. And it's Hirsch who helps me. I have him in my head and on my shoulder and in [5:08] my ear. And I think he's saying, live, find joy, celebrate, dance, be happy. And I'm trying to [5:17] listen to him. I don't know what the afterlife is and what it looks like, but I convinced myself that [5:25] he's okay. He's okay. We need to work on us, but he's okay. And that helps me. [5:31] Do you feel him? [5:33] I do feel Hirsch very much. I had this incredible experience a few weeks ago. We met with this [5:39] young woman named Auriah who was talking about how we integrate loss. And she was talking about [5:48] this idea that I had never heard toxic positivity, which is when people are constantly saying to you, [5:54] you're going to be okay. It's okay. You're getting better. And to the point where I think it's actually [5:59] emotionally barbaric and gaslighting to say that to people, there are people who are broken, [6:08] own your brokenness. I'm broken. And I'm going to go through life broken. It doesn't mean I'm not [6:14] going to be happy or laugh or have amazing relationships and celebrate my two vivacious, [6:20] dynamic, talented daughters. [6:22] You can be both at the same time. [6:23] Yes. So I Google, what is the opposite of toxic positivity? And it said, tragic optimism. [6:32] And I was like, gosh, I love it. That is me. I am a tragic optimist. So then I said, [6:40] who coined that phrase? Viktor Frankl. [6:44] No. [6:45] And I was like, thank you, Hirsch. I mean, come on. I thought Hirsch just sprinkled that right onto me. [6:51] There's something beautiful about the ability to still be optimistic, but you've been wounded. [7:00] There is a real texture once you've had the perspective of intense suffering, which we've had [7:10] and everyone will have. [7:13] One of the things you have said to me repeatedly is that there's nothing special about you or your loss. [7:18] There are so many people who, as a result of October 7th, on both sides of the border, [7:24] have suffered tremendous losses of children. [7:28] Exactly. And all over the world right now. And it's not a team sport. You don't have to choose a side, [7:35] even though I think sometimes that construct serves a tiny percent of people. [7:43] We have so much more in common in this human endeavor of life. It unites us. [7:51] It connects everybody on the planet, which is so— [7:53] No one wants to see that. But that adversarial construct is what keeps us cheering for two different teams [8:00] when really this is humanity. And how do we as humans acknowledge and recognize the pain and suffering [8:10] and loss and grief and mourning that all of us have or will have? [8:15] You talk in the book about the moment the before was done and the moment the after started. [8:22] And for you, that was the morning of October 7th when you read the two text messages from Hirsch that you got. [8:28] What did those messages say? [8:31] The first one said, I love you. And the second one said, I'm sorry. [8:34] And I just knew there's no 23-year-old in the world who at 8, 11 in the morning is writing those to his parents out of nowhere [8:45] because everything's okay. It's because everything's not okay. [8:51] And we now know that was already after his forearm was blown off. [8:57] He typed those in a bomb shelter. [8:59] With his non-dominant hand. [9:01] Even calling it a bomb shelter, by the way, is kind of grandiose. [9:03] Right. [9:04] It's a 5x8 concrete bunker essentially with an open doorway. [9:08] Yes. [9:09] In that room were more than 25 young people crammed together. [9:14] Yes. [9:15] Hamas had already come, had already thrown in multiple grenades. [9:18] Hirsch's best friend, Anir Shapira, had already thrown out, at least according to eyewitnesses, 10 of those grenades. [9:26] He was killed. Others threw grenades as well. [9:30] And Hirsch, was his hand blown off throwing a grenade? [9:34] Yes. [9:35] Because Anir had said to everyone, your natural response will be to close your eyes. [9:41] If something's thrown at you, you have to keep your eyes open and try to throw out anything they're throwing in. [9:47] And if anything happens to me, you keep doing it. [9:49] And he ended up getting killed. [9:51] And so the other kids who were inside were trying to do what Anir had told them to do. [9:57] And Hirsch was holding a grenade that exploded while he was trying to throw it out. [10:01] And that's how his forearm below the elbow was blown off. [10:06] You said in the book, in the new world, our story is a story about pain, pain that is agonizing, throat choking, debilitating, soul shattering. [10:16] No one wants to hear that. [10:17] People want hope, resilience, recovery, strength, survival, healing. [10:21] They want thriving and rising from the ashes like the phoenix from the days of yore. [10:25] But the pain is chronic, ever-present, constant, gnawing, circular, not linear. [10:31] Bound in our straitjacket of suffering, John and I are still stranded in this tunnel, even though Hirsch is no longer there. [10:37] I think about that a lot. [10:40] I had a really meaningful conversation with this ultra-Orthodox rabbi after Hirsch was killed. [10:47] And he said, Hirsch was thrown into this very deep, dark place. [10:52] And because you are his parents, you were there with him. [10:56] And you will always be there. [10:59] It felt like a validating affirmation. [11:04] And I had another friend who said, part of you is already in the world to come. [11:09] And that's why you feel so confused here. [11:15] Because there's a percentage of you that you put in the ground. [11:19] You felt that at Hirsch's funeral, looking into the hole that he was going to be put into. [11:23] You felt you were in there. [11:24] Yeah. [11:25] Irene Weiss, who is a Holocaust survivor, virtually her whole family was killed. [11:31] I heard her on your podcast. [11:32] Yeah. [11:33] I just want to play something that she said on the podcast. [11:36] The heart keeps working. [11:40] But the soul never forgets. [11:43] It's imprinted on the soul that keeps the memory, the pain, the grief. [11:50] It's just always there. [11:52] The 13-year-old girl that you were, do you still feel that little girl at times? [11:58] Or did you bury her early on? [12:00] No, that's a good question. [12:02] That's really a very good question. [12:05] I'm stuck there. [12:07] I am really stuck there. [12:09] That's where all the grief is. [12:12] It's not the depression that you could read about in books. [12:18] It's a pain and it's a melancholy. [12:21] I'm different. [12:22] I'm holding on. [12:24] And yes, I'm 13 years old most of the time. [12:28] Very difficult. [12:29] I can see how I'm strange among other women or friends. [12:36] I think I probably am misunderstood, too, that I'm reserved or not friendly or something like that. [12:44] Very hard to. [12:47] I see another side all the time. [12:51] Not fair. [12:53] Not fair. [12:54] She talked about at the end where she's with her friends and she's not all there. [12:58] I, on the one hand, feel like I'm now much more comfortable being open and emotional with my buddies. [13:08] At the same time, I find myself frequently saying, act like you're in the conversation. [13:14] Throw out a comment here and there. [13:16] Pretend like you're there, even if you're not. [13:19] It's just constant brainworking. [13:22] There's no stopping and relaxing and detaching. [13:25] It's always something running. [13:27] But the bigger thing, as I listen to Irene talk, is, and we've said this for a long time, we weren't in the bomb shelter. [13:40] We weren't taken hostage. [13:42] We weren't in tunnels. [13:44] And I feel in some ways, like it's an insult to her in some ways, to compare our experiences. [13:51] I actually talked to her daughter a couple of days ago, and I mentioned that she was going to be talking to you, and she actually made a little video for you. [13:58] Oh, my gosh. [14:01] I watched you both advocating for your son and was deeply disturbed by his death. [14:07] When I was 13, I lost most of my family in Auschwitz. [14:12] But losing a son, a child, is a special kind of pain. [14:17] At age 95, my own grief goes in stages. [14:23] Sometimes it is hard to bear. [14:25] Other times, the feelings are more quiet. [14:28] And then again, I am full of rage at the world that creates such murderers. [14:35] I wish you strength in dealing with your grief. [14:46] Do you feel that rage at all? [14:48] I don't feel the rage, but I love what she said because I love that she's held on to the pain for 80 years. [15:06] It's so permissive. [15:08] It's really beautiful because I don't plan on getting rid of this pain. [15:18] I really don't. [15:19] You don't want to. [15:21] I don't think that it's attainable. [15:24] I think that it's so integral to who we are. [15:27] And I think that it's just part of us now. [15:35] And I'm comfortable with it. [15:38] And pain also promotes healing. [15:41] We don't have to be terrified of pain. [15:45] And I love that she very much acknowledged in the previous video, [15:52] there's something about when your crisis happens to you, when your trauma happens, [15:58] you do get stuck in that place. [16:01] John and I were both 53 years old. [16:03] We had had a really good run. [16:06] But I do think of people like Irene or you or other friends who as children had their big loss [16:14] and you get stuck in that place. [16:19] And I don't think there should be shame involved with that. [16:23] But I think for many years, a lot of people felt that because of the toxic positivity of being told, [16:28] okay, it's been three years, two years, five years, ten years, come on, integrate it and let's go. [16:37] And I think that's done a lot of damage to a lot of people. [16:41] And so I love that her message is, I'm 90 years old, this happened when I was 13, [16:48] and it has been on my back and I'm carrying it. [16:51] I like that she says some days it's more quiet, but it's still there. [16:54] It's always there, for sure. [16:56] You said, [16:57] Then there are days when suddenly there is a whisper of sun, not out there in the sky, in me, in us. [17:02] It's coming from within the four of us, we who used to be five. [17:06] We are figuring out how to float with one of us not present. [17:10] You also said, [17:11] I hope I can teach myself how to miss someone forever and love someone forever in a way that doesn't run me over each day anew. [17:18] Have you gotten any closer to that? [17:22] I'm not sure. [17:23] I don't know if it's closer to that, but it's different. [17:32] And it's just getting more familiar with this sensation that's always right here. [17:41] I always feel he's right here, that longing is right here. [17:48] But you can get comfortable with wanting. [17:53] I don't like it, but I can get familiar with it. [17:57] There's a scene in Gone with the Wind, in the burning of Atlanta. [18:00] And it's Rhett Butler is trying to lead the horse that's carrying the wagon with Scarlet and everybody. [18:11] And the horse is getting spooked by all of the flames and destruction around it. [18:18] Rhett Butler puts a fabric over the horse's head and then the horse, and he's talking gently to the horse, and the horse is okay. [18:26] But every few minutes, the horse freaks out. [18:29] And I kind of feel like the horse. [18:31] I'll be freaking out, and then I'll talk myself down, and I'll soothe myself. [18:36] And then, but then I'll realize, holy cow, like this, I cannot believe this is our reality. [18:42] And I'll get spooked. [18:44] You must have had that repeatedly in the 330 days. [18:49] Oh, my gosh. [18:50] Before you learned who had been executed. [18:52] Yes. [18:52] It's not grief. [18:53] Those 330, that was torture. [18:56] That was an exquisite, perfected torture. [19:01] Knowing that your child is being tortured, and you know it, and being starved, and you know it, and has no arm, and you know it, is absolute excruciating torture. [19:16] And how do you just keep breathing? [19:20] And that's when I had a lot of really confusing self-care problems. [19:27] It was extremely hard for me to shower because I knew he wasn't showering. [19:31] It was extremely hard for me to eat because I knew he wasn't eating. [19:36] It was extremely hard for me to drink water because we knew they weren't drinking. [19:41] They would maybe get half a cup of salt water from the sea or dirty water. [19:47] It was excruciating. [19:52] And a lot of my problem now, I know that Hirsch is not starving anymore. [19:57] I know he's not dirty anymore. [20:00] And yet, when every single time I shower, I'm uncomfortable showering. [20:06] And when I drink water now, it's uncomfortable, which is really damaged. [20:15] And yet, I earned that damage. [20:20] It's real. [20:22] I should point out that I first met you when I interviewed you on CNN on October 16th. [20:29] Some eyewitnesses had told you that Hirsch had been wounded, and you knew that part of his left arm had been blown off. [20:36] You didn't have any video of him at that point. [20:39] And while I was interviewing you, I saw a picture of Hirsch that we put up that you had given us, which was Hirsch in the bomb shelter. [20:47] I realized that I had actually seen a video of Hirsch being kidnapped. [20:51] I'd been shown it several days before by some Israeli soldiers at the Nova Music Festival site on one of their phones. [20:58] I actually exclaimed when I saw it, [21:00] Jesus. [21:02] His hand has been blown off. [21:07] But I had no idea when I was talking to you that that's who that was until I saw the photo. [21:12] And I was trying to figure out how do I handle this, what do I do, and I realized I'm not going to say anything now. [21:18] And as soon as the interview was done, I said I was going to call you, and then I informed you of that and sent you the video. [21:24] I said this to you in the 60 Minutes interview, I feel terrible that that is the way you saw what happened to your son. [21:29] I actually think that was actually a perfect way. [21:33] And I'm not saying this because we're here and we really were so struck by your humanity that evening because you handled it in such a perfect way. [21:43] You were as gentle and human and kind and benevolent as possible given this terrible thing that you had to give over to us. [21:54] So we're actually thankful that it was you and that you did it in the way you did it. [21:59] I want to read something that you wrote about grief. [22:01] You said, [22:01] What if instead of hating, tolerating, or just putting up with grief, what if I'm all wrong? [22:07] Maybe I actually owe grief an apology. [22:10] For so long I've been confused, desperate, and in such profound pain I haven't been thinking straight. [22:15] I've been looking at grief through mud-colored glasses. [22:17] I've decried grief as a trespasser. [22:19] I've tried to bar the door. [22:21] I've screened its calls. [22:22] I've written libelous, disparaging remarks about grief. [22:24] But perhaps grief is merely the messenger, and by trying to prevent it from entering the room of my soul, I've exhausted myself. [22:31] Now I see how that very effort depleted my mangled body and spirit even further. [22:36] I think that much of the festering, blistering pain that we broke and feel comes from trying to deny the love that continues to grow after a person dies. [22:45] With a bolt of revelation, I see that grief is a badge of the love that continues to grow after its recipient is no longer here. [22:52] Why in the world wouldn't we want to wear that precious badge proudly? [22:56] Do you feel like you have a relationship with her still and that it grows? [23:00] That I definitely feel. [23:03] The way that I love Hirsch today is different than how I loved him yesterday or last week or last month or last year or on October 6th. [23:13] It really is like bamboo and continues to grow and develop and change shapes and textures. [23:21] And what I have learned that's most revelatory for me is that love is stronger than time and love is stronger than death. [23:36] And I don't think that about hate. [23:40] I actually think hatred is this very powerful emotion. [23:44] But I think with time, it can peter out. [23:50] And I think love keeps growing. [23:51] That's what's so glorious because that gives me comfort knowing that this love is going to keep changing and shifting and curving around. [24:06] And it's not going to disappear. [24:08] No, it's it's no chance in the world. [24:11] Even what Irene was saying, that gives me hope. [24:14] 80 years from now, you're still going to love this kid. [24:17] But you're still going to feel pain. [24:19] Yeah, but that's all right. [24:21] It's OK. [24:23] I'll take it. [24:24] It's the price. [24:25] Because you get the love, too. [24:27] Yeah. [24:28] It's a package deal. [24:31] We'll be right back with more of my conversation with Rachel and John. [24:37] You both went through this experience for 330 days knowing, believing Hirsch was alive. [24:45] And when they came to tell you they'd found Hirsch and he'd been executed, you discovered something. [24:54] What was it you discovered? [24:55] That that had been the good part. [24:57] There was the hope that he was that we were getting him home. [25:01] And now we knew he'd never come home. [25:04] And he didn't. [25:04] A lot of people say like, oh, you finally got him home. [25:08] Or we finally got all the hostages home. [25:10] Hirsch never came home. [25:12] Hirsch never came back to my home. [25:13] I got him back in a bag and we put him in the ground six miles from our house. [25:21] That's not coming to my home. [25:23] And so it was a whole new universe of now where are we? [25:36] How do we do this? [25:39] But we're doing it. [25:40] Funerals in Israel are so different than here. [25:45] There's no casket. [25:46] There's a body in a shroud. [25:47] It's put in the ground. [25:49] It's very elemental. [25:50] It's very real. [25:51] We traditionally cut your shirt right above where your heart is when it's one of the seven closest relatives, mother, father, brother, sister, daughter, son, spouse. [26:02] And you tear your shirt upon hearing the news. [26:06] And then you wear that shirt throughout the Shiva, throughout the seven-day mourning period. [26:11] So we happen to have been wearing whatever T-shirts we were wearing Sunday morning when they came to tell us. [26:18] And no one's wearing a suit. [26:21] No one's dressing up. [26:22] No one's showered. [26:24] It was one of the hottest days of the year in August in Jerusalem. [26:28] There were thousands of people there. [26:30] There were thousands of people there. [26:31] There was no shade. [26:31] It was just miserable because it should be miserable. [26:36] And that I really like. [26:38] It's very real. [26:40] I just want to play part of that. [26:41] Finally, my sweet boy. [26:44] Finally, finally, finally, finally, you're free. [26:47] I will love you and I will miss you every single day for the rest of my life. [26:56] But you're right here. [26:58] I know you're right here. [27:00] I just have to teach myself how to feel you in a different way. [27:03] I remember at some point during the eulogy that I gave hearing this rolling cascade of screaming. [27:16] People were screaming. [27:17] His friends were on the ground, screaming, screaming. [27:24] It was very helpful. [27:26] One of the many lasting images in my head of that day is we walked out of our apartment, [27:35] and we got in the car for a slow procession, and the entire route. [27:43] The most common thing that we saw was people holding a sign with one word on it, [27:50] slicha, which means, I'm sorry. [27:53] There was this communal, national sense of, we failed you, and we're sorry. [28:02] During when you were speaking at the funeral, you looked up and you said, I'm sorry. [28:06] You screamed out, I'm sorry. [28:07] Yeah, as we were burying him. [28:09] And those were Hirsch's last words in text to you as well. [28:12] I'm sorry in that bomb shelter. [28:14] Yeah. [28:15] I think he was sorry because he thought he was dying and he knew it would be horrific for us. [28:20] And I also was feeling terribly sorry that I had failed to save him. [28:26] On the 328th day, you went with other families to the border, and the idea was to have families [28:36] on loudspeakers talking to their loved ones and being held hostage, and you screamed out for Hirsch. [28:49] It's Mama. [28:56] It's day 328. [29:00] We are all here. [29:02] All the families of the remaining 107 hostages. [29:11] Hirsch, we are working day and night, and we will never stop. [29:19] Did you believe maybe he could hear you? [29:21] We had been told that they were close enough that there was a chance that they could hear us, [29:27] and it ended up being the most primal scream I've ever given over in my life. [29:37] And I remember there was a cameraman in front of me who he jerked and burst into tears. [29:45] And I have no idea if Hirsch heard me in that moment, but I think he heard me in other ways [29:55] at other times for sure. [29:58] And that day, that was the day he was executed. [30:02] They think that they were executed later that afternoon. [30:06] So I also am very thankful that I did go. [30:09] I think that that was a very important thing for the universe to chronicle parents screaming [30:18] to their child before he was taken from the universe. [30:23] You had very little information about what Hirsch's life had been like for those 328 days. [30:30] And it wasn't until Orr Levy gets released that you actually get to learn about the days that Orr Levy spent with your son. [30:44] Right. [30:45] And that was unbelievable and will always be something for the rest of my life that I treasure. [30:53] Those couple of hours that we spent in the hospital with Orr, whose name in Hebrew, the name Orr means light. [31:01] And we had been living in complete darkness, first originally when Hirsch was stolen and then certainly after Hirsch was killed. [31:09] We were in the darkest, most black, drenched place. [31:17] And suddenly on the evening of 496, we meet light, we meet Orr. [31:26] Orr told you that Hirsch was not broken. [31:27] And that he was laughing, that there was laughter. [31:32] He said, well, he kept saying this mantra that he was saying to himself constantly, which was a quote from Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning. [31:42] When you have a why, you can bear almost any how. [31:47] When you have a why, you can bear almost any how. [31:50] And we were just floored that that's what Hirsch was doing. [31:57] And he said, oh, he said to me, your why is your son. [32:02] You have to get out of here. [32:03] You're going to bear this. [32:05] You're going to deal with this because you have a son at home. [32:08] And Eli Sharabi wrote about it in his book that Hirsch said the same thing to him. [32:12] And he said it to Eliak Cohen. [32:14] He was saying this to everyone and to himself. [32:16] And that became so illuminating for John and me. [32:24] And I had never read the book. [32:26] It's a 1946 memoir by Viktor Frankl about his time at concentration camp. [32:31] It's in my bag. [32:32] I travel with it because it's Hirsch. [32:35] It's a piece of Hirsch. [32:37] And I didn't know. [32:39] And so all of the sudden, we find out he's making people feel okay. [32:46] He was still himself. [32:49] Yes, he was missing an arm. [32:51] Yes, he was hungry. [32:52] Yes, he was scared. [32:55] They were all miserable. [32:57] But he wasn't broken. [32:59] And he could have been broken. [33:00] It's not that I don't. [33:01] I mean, I'm broken. [33:02] I mean, heck, like that's my identity. [33:05] It's not that I'm anti that. [33:06] What Orr was telling us is that, yes, it was horrible and he was okay. [33:12] Do you know what your why is? [33:17] Part of our why is figuring out our why. [33:19] And part of our why is picking up Hirsch's why. [33:24] And I'm really fascinated by this idea. [33:29] The Baal Shem Tov, who was sort of the father of mystical Judaism 300 years ago, said, was once asked, what's the purpose of this life? [33:40] Like, why are we all here? [33:41] Why do we all get here? [33:42] What's the point? [33:43] And he said, every soul is sent to this world so that one day their soul can do one kindness for one person. [33:56] Just once. [33:57] It doesn't mean you're not supposed to do thousands of acts of kindness and betterment and improvement and trying to fix this place. [34:05] But you're here and I'm here and John's here and all of us are here because there's one specific thing that we're supposed to do once. [34:15] That did Hirsch do his one kindness when he was three and we were living in Berkeley? [34:20] Did he do it when he was 13 and he was in eighth grade and he was nice to somebody who no one was nice to? [34:28] Or was it saying something empowering to someone in a dark tunnel under Rafa when he was 23? [34:35] I don't know, but I know that he did it and that's why he was able to go. [34:39] And I do wonder to myself, have I already done my one kindness, but I'm still here because someone else has to do their kindness to me? [34:49] And I think figuring out our why is clearly having something to do with this colossal Herculean challenge we've been handed in the losing of Hirsch. [35:07] You found a notebook that Hirsch had kept back in 2015. [35:11] He had just turned 15. [35:12] He was a freshman in high school. [35:14] It's just a sort of musings of a ninth grade boy with very bad handwriting. [35:21] I want to read part of what you found that he wrote. [35:25] It's all about a tunnel. [35:26] This was on October 26, 2015. [35:30] Every so often you arrive at a tunnel and you enter the unknown and you don't know when you'll get out. [35:35] To walk in the dark in the beginning you're upset and you're not ready and you feel that you arrived at the edge. [35:40] But it is not the exit or the end. [35:42] It is just a change in the situation. [35:45] How much time it will take to get to the end of the tunnel depends on the person. [35:48] If it is with despair, it will take a longer time. [35:51] Or if you enter with all of your might, it will pass quicker. [35:54] My tunnel was when I was the new one. [35:56] But like everything in life, I passed through the tunnel. [35:59] Who knows how many more tunnels I will encounter. [36:02] But I'm not afraid to slow down or even to make a U-turn. [36:04] What is sure is that I am walking to the end of the tunnel. [36:07] He writes about tunnels 12 times in this passage. [36:11] Eight years before he was held in a tunnel. [36:15] What do you make of it? [36:16] It's a very strange passage. [36:18] And I don't really know what to make of it. [36:21] But I also want to take it as a message to us. [36:26] That we all have these metaphorical tunnels that we run into. [36:31] We don't know if they're going to be long or short or deep or shallow. [36:34] Or when are we getting out? [36:35] And hopefully we'll endure until it's our turn to get out. [36:40] Even after he was killed, it gave me strength that he was ready for the challenge. [36:48] And he took on the challenge. [36:50] And I think he really believed that we're all coming to get him. [36:53] Just a question of when. [36:55] Is there something you've learned in your grief that would be helpful for others? [36:59] There's a precept in the Jewish tradition and in other religions as well. [37:04] That every person is a whole universe. [37:07] I think that that's a really beautiful way of looking at people. [37:11] And I think a lot of the people who we were talking to when Hirsch was alive, [37:18] we realized that they were looking at Hirsch as one boy in the whole wide world. [37:24] And we were looking at Hirsch as one world in the whole boy. [37:28] And that that's really beautiful. [37:30] And that's why there's such suffering when we lose someone. [37:34] Because we're losing a whole world. [37:36] And that's a gift that we miss our people so much. [37:42] It is the most human thing we can ever experience. [37:47] This loss. [37:48] Does it help you to know that you are on a road that has been walked down by everybody who's ever lived? [37:55] For me, for sure. [37:56] It helps me. [37:57] Yeah, it's not unique. [37:58] It's not unique. [38:00] It's just, it's challenging. [38:03] Okay, I'll do it. [38:05] Don't fight the grief. [38:08] Don't try to diminish the grief. [38:10] Just figure out how to carry it in a way that I can walk through the world still while the grief is always on me. [38:20] Yeah. [38:20] And that's why it's two containers of confusion that we deal with or try to deal with. [38:28] Because there's the death and all of the grief and loss and mourning and pain. [38:32] And then there's this compartment. [38:34] I think of it as like those storage lockers. [38:39] That's the 330 days. [38:42] It's like that I really put in a storage locker. [38:45] And I just feel. [38:47] Because you had to get through it. [38:48] Yeah. [38:48] You had to. [38:49] You had a job to do. [38:50] And so I was compartmentalizing it. [38:51] I was saying like, yes, you're terrified. [38:53] Yes, you're traumatized. [38:54] Yes, you're being tortured. [38:55] That's later. [38:56] Go. [38:57] So I kept putting all of this. [38:59] What was it you would say every morning when you woke up? [39:01] I would say hope is mandatory. [39:04] Go. [39:04] Hope is mandatory. [39:05] Hope is mandatory. [39:07] Not a suggestion and not advice. [39:09] It's a command. [39:10] Hope is mandatory. [39:11] Go, you would say. [39:12] Go. [39:12] And then I'd fling the blanket off and go. [39:15] Even though I wanted to crawl up in a fetal position on the floor next to my bed and be weeping out of complete terror. [39:27] So for to function, you had to push it all down. [39:30] Yes. [39:30] And which I'm very familiar with and propel yourself forward. [39:34] Yes. [39:34] Pushing, pushing, pushing and then putting all that stuff into the storage locker. [39:39] And I don't know now what to do with that. [39:41] Meaning I'm so busy dealing with the grief and anguish and missing and yearning and every day longer is I miss him more. [39:52] I don't miss him less. [39:54] But I have a storage locker of horrific things. [39:59] Do I have to go through that? [40:01] Do I have to unlock it? [40:02] I don't know what to do with that. [40:04] I don't know how it works. [40:05] Do you feel its presence? [40:07] I do because weird things happen, right? [40:10] When I'm showering. [40:11] Well, that's from the storage locker. [40:13] That's not from him being dead. [40:15] Because a lot of people lose people and they don't have a problem showering or eating or drinking. [40:23] Or John said recently, maybe one day you'll wear your hair down again. [40:27] I put my hair up on October 7th and I've never taken it down. [40:31] I used to wear makeup. [40:32] I've never worn makeup again. [40:33] I used to wear jewelry. [40:35] I've never worn jewelry again. [40:37] Like that's the 330 days. [40:39] So that you have not even begun to unpack or turn to. [40:43] Mm-mm. [40:45] And I don't know. [40:46] Is that possible? [40:47] I mean, Irene would probably know. [40:49] Like am I 53 now forever standing next to this storage locker? [40:53] I don't know. [40:54] I hope there's a way that I can be normal whether I open it or I don't. [41:04] Do you want to open it? [41:06] No. [41:06] And I – is that allowed? [41:11] Can I just keep all of that horror locked up? [41:15] Is that an option? [41:16] Or will it – is it like when you ignore that, oh, something's off in the fridge and you just keep the door closed? [41:22] Like, oh. [41:23] And then one day you open the fridge and you're super overwhelmed. [41:27] Like is that going to happen? [41:28] But what if I promise I'll never open the fridge? [41:31] Not that my little fridge is comparable at all. [41:34] But, I mean, that was my strategy my entire life. [41:37] How did it go? [41:37] Forty years – I lasted 40 years. [41:39] And then I found myself weeping uncontrollably while going through boxes of my dead family's things and not knowing why am I weeping. [41:47] Right. [41:47] But 40 years for me will take me to 96. [41:51] You can maybe make it. [41:51] I can make it, right? [41:53] And then if I lose it, so then put me in the ground next to Hersh all as well. [41:57] But I lived half a life in those 40 years. [41:59] Right. [42:00] Right. [42:00] Which I don't think you want to do. [42:01] Right. [42:03] So I guess I don't know. [42:06] I don't know. [42:08] When you need to know, you'll know. [42:10] Rachel Goldberg-Poland's new book, When We See You Again, is out now. [42:14] Later this week on Thursday, I hope you join me at 9.15 p.m. for my streaming show, All There Is Live. [42:19] You can only watch it on our grief community page, cnn.com slash allthereis. [42:23] It streams live there for free. [42:25] You can also communicate with others in the comments who are watching at the same time. [42:29] If you missed the live stream, it will be posted the following day for a week on cnn.com slash allthereis. [42:34] It's a really special show, and all the older episodes of it are available on demand for CNN subscribers. [42:40] Also, if there's something you've learned in your grief that you think would be helpful for others, [42:44] feel free to leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805. [42:48] We may use your message on an upcoming episode of the podcast. [42:52] Thanks for listening. [42:53] Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, you're not alone.