Full Video: Prosecutors Cross-Examine Kyle Rittenhouse

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Good morning, Mr. Ritteness. Good morning. Everybody that you shot at that night, you intended to kill, correct? [00:00:07] Speaker 2: I didn't intend to kill them. I intended to stop the people who were attacking me. [00:00:12] Speaker 1: By killing them? [00:00:15] Speaker 2: I did what I had to do to stop the person who was attacking me. [00:00:20] Speaker 1: By killing them? [00:00:22] Speaker 2: Two of them passed away, but I stopped the threat from attacking me. [00:00:26] Speaker 1: By using deadly force? [00:00:28] Speaker 2: I used deadly force. [00:00:30] Speaker 1: That you knew was going to kill. [00:00:32] Speaker 2: I didn't know if it was going to kill them, but I used deadly force to stop the threat that was attacking me. [00:00:39] Speaker 1: You intentionally used deadly force against Joseph Rosenbaum, correct? Yes. You intentionally used deadly force against the man who came and tried to kick you in the face, correct? You intentionally used deadly force against Anthony Huber, correct? Yes. You intentionally used deadly force against Gage Grosskoitz, correct? [00:00:59] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:01:00] Speaker 1: With regard to Joseph Rosenbaum, you fired four shots at him, correct? Yes. You intended to kill him, correct? [00:01:07] Speaker 2: I didn't intend to kill him. I intended to stop the person who was attacking me and trying to steal my gun. [00:01:16] Speaker 1: Since August 25th, 2020, this is the first time that you have told your story. [00:01:24] Speaker 3: I don't want to check to this. This is taking. [00:01:31] Speaker 1: Since August 25th, 2020, you've had the benefit of watching countless videos of your actions that night, correct? [00:01:39] Speaker 2: I've seen certain videos, not all of them. I've seen a majority of them actually here during the trial. [00:01:46] Speaker 1: You've also had the opportunity to read articles. People have written interviews, things like that about what happened that night, correct? [00:01:54] Speaker 2: I do my best to avoid what people write on the Internet. A majority of it is not true. [00:01:59] Speaker 1: So, you have also sat here through eight days of trial, correct? Yes. And you've had the opportunity to watch all of the videos that have been played in this trial? Yes. Sir, if you could please let me finish my question before answering. And I will do my best to let you finish your answer before I go on to the next question. Fair? [00:02:21] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:02:22] Speaker 1: You've also had the opportunity to listen to the testimony of all 30-some witnesses that have testified in this trial so far, correct? Yes. And after all of that, now, you are telling us your side of the story, correct? [00:02:37] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:02:39] Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you folks to go on the library for just a second. [00:02:42] Speaker 4: Please don't talk about the case. He's commenting on my client's right to remain silent. [00:02:48] Speaker 1: No, Your Honor. I am making the point that after hearing everything in the case, now he's tailoring his story to what has already been introduced. [00:02:58] Speaker 3: The problem is this is a grave constitutional violation for you to talk about the defendant's silence. That is – and you're right on the borderline. And you may – you may be over, but it better stop. [00:03:21] Speaker 1: Understood. [00:03:22] Speaker 3: This is – I can't think of the case, the initial case on it, but it's – this is not permitted. All right. We ask the jury to come in, please. I've sustained the objection. [00:03:40] Speaker 1: You were armed with an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle that evening, correct? Yes. You had it loaded with 30 rounds of full metal jacket ammunition, correct? [00:03:54] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:03:55] Speaker 1: That weapon with 30 rounds is capable of killing at least 30 people, correct? Yes. You had arranged to have Dominic Black purchase that weapon for you in Ladysmith, Wisconsin, in early May of 2020. Is that correct? [00:04:19] Speaker 2: We were up north shooting and – not shooting. We were up north going camping, and Dominic Black brought his rifle, and he was – we were talking. I was like, hey, what if we get a rifle for me? I'll give you the money. You can purchase it. It's yours until I'm 18. So, I bought the rifle for Dominic, and I can use it, but once I'm 18, we can do a private sale, and we can have it turned over to my name once I turned 18. [00:04:50] Speaker 1: Because you knew, as a 17-year-old, you could not have that gun, correct? [00:04:55] Speaker 2: I knew I could not buy that gun. [00:04:57] Speaker 1: You knew you could not possess that gun also, correct? No. You weren't aware that under Wisconsin law – [00:05:03] Speaker 3: I'm going to instruct the jury later about the law, and that he wouldn't – what he thinks on the subject is not dispositive anyway, so it was unlawful for him to purchase the gun. [00:05:19] Speaker 1: It wasn't just unlawful for you to purchase it. It was unlawful for you to bring it home, correct? [00:05:24] Speaker 2: In Illinois, I wasn't able to bring it home because I didn't have a FOID card, a firearm owner identification card in Illinois. [00:05:31] Speaker 1: You knew in Illinois that you couldn't get that until you turned 18, correct? [00:05:36] Speaker 2: No. You can get a FOID card at 16 in Illinois. [00:05:39] Speaker 1: But you didn't have one? [00:05:41] Speaker 2: I did not. [00:05:42] Speaker 1: And even after this gun was purchased for you in May, you never got one after that either, did you? [00:05:48] Speaker 2: Actually, I applied for a FOID card in May of 2020, but due to the charges. There was a backlog in Illinois for the FOID card, but after you filed the charges against me, it was denied because of the charges here in this state. [00:06:05] Speaker 1: You found out about that after you were criminally charged in this case? [00:06:10] Speaker 2: I found out about this in November of 2020. A letter was sent to my old resident. [00:06:16] Speaker 1: So you knew that without that FOID card, the gun could not go back to your residence in Illinois, correct? Correct. And you agreed that the gun would be kept at Dominic Black's stepfather's house here in Kenosha, correct? [00:06:31] Speaker 2: Because he had a safe, yes. [00:06:33] Speaker 1: And you agreed that you wouldn't have access to that gun, correct? [00:06:37] Speaker 2: We agreed that the only time I would use the gun is when I was with him and we would go to the Bristol Shooting Range or up north to his land. [00:06:48] Speaker 1: But the only time prior to the night of August 25, 2020, that you ever used that gun was up in Ladysmith, correct? Correct. So you didn't go to the Bristol Shooting Range ever with that gun? [00:07:01] Speaker 2: I did. Not with that rifle, but I did. [00:07:05] Speaker 1: Pay attention to my question, please. You didn't ever go to the Bristol Shooting Range with that gun, correct? Correct. And you picked out that gun because Dominic had it, correct? Yeah. You could have, if you wanted to, chosen from any number of guns that were for sale. Fair enough? [00:07:30] Speaker 2: That were at that store. There weren't many, but yes. [00:07:33] Speaker 1: I'm sure the store in Ladysmith isn't the only store that sells guns, correct? [00:07:37] Speaker 3: You may ask questions. [00:07:40] Speaker 1: That was a question. [00:07:40] Speaker 3: No, it was a statement. [00:07:42] Speaker ?: All right. [00:07:43] Speaker 1: Isn't it correct, Mr. Rittenhouse, that there are other places to purchase guns besides that one store in Ladysmith, Wisconsin? [00:07:52] Speaker 2: I believe so, but that's where we're at, so that's where we got the gun. [00:07:56] Speaker 1: And you, if you wanted to, could have given Dominic Black money to purchase a gun at other locations. Fair? Didn't cross my mind, but now that you say it, yeah. Why did you pick or want Dominic Black to buy for you an AR-15 as opposed to a pistol or a shotgun or some other type of rifle? [00:08:20] Speaker 2: I cannot legally possess or carry a pistol because I'm not 18 in Wisconsin. I believe it's 18 in Wisconsin for a pistol. But with the rifle, I knew I could possess that rifle. I knew I couldn't buy it, but I knew I could, like, take it to, like, the shooting range or possess it. And with shotguns, they didn't have any shotguns in stock. That was my original plan to get a shotgun for trap shooting. But there weren't any at that Ladysmith store, and I didn't want to go to Walmart and buy one. [00:08:57] Speaker 1: So your understanding at that time was that Wisconsin law prohibited you, as a 17-year-old, from possessing a pistol, but you could have an AR-15? Yes. What was that understanding based on? [00:09:12] Speaker 2: The understanding was based on when we would go up north. We were, it was me, Dominic, and my sister, and we were allowed to carry the rifles around. And the officers over there said it was fine. [00:09:29] Speaker 1: I'm going to move to strike this hearsay as to what officers would have told me. [00:09:34] Speaker 3: Can you ask a question on what the source of this knowledge was? It's not admissible, and none of this is, frankly, and that's why I interrupted before. What the defendant believes the law to be, what the district attorney believes the law to be, what the defense believes the law to be, are irrelevant. I will tell you, when I instruct you, what the law of Wisconsin is pertaining to the possession of a firearm by a person under 18, and that will be the source of your knowledge. I'm allowing the testimony right now because it bears on, there's an old maxim under the law, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. If you commit a criminal act, whether you know it was criminal or not, you're responsible for your conduct, and because you're responsible to know the law. It's not relevant except in this case, there are specific issues about his awareness and knowledge about certain conduct that is relevant on some issues. So it's quite complicated, and hopefully it'll sort out when I instruct you at the end, but that's why I'm allowing the questions and the answers, but do not be confused about what anything that these people say is not necessarily accurate as to the state of Wisconsin law. Any question about that? Okay, thanks. Go ahead. [00:11:18] Speaker 1: So you're telling us that the reason that you wanted Dominic to buy you an AR-15 as opposed to a pistol is the only reason was because you felt you couldn't lawfully possess a pistol? [00:11:30] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:11:32] Speaker 1: You didn't pick out the AR-15 for any other reason? [00:11:36] Speaker 2: I thought it looked cool, but no. [00:11:41] Speaker 1: You didn't pick it out because you wanted to go hunting with it, did you? No. You didn't pick it out because you were going to use it to protect your house, correct? Correct. You picked it out because it looked cool. [00:11:55] Speaker 2: I thought it looked cool. I guess that's the reason, yes. [00:11:58] Speaker 1: It resembled the types of weapons that are used in first-person shooter video games, correct? [00:12:06] Speaker 2: I don't really play first-person shooter video games. I have, but I believe there's a variety of guns, including shotguns, pistols. There's guns in video games that resemble all guns. [00:12:17] Speaker 1: Isn't it true when you would hang out with Dominic Black, you'd play Call of Duty and other first-person shooter video games? Sometimes. And those are games in which you use weapons like AR-15s to pretty much shoot anybody who comes at you, correct? [00:12:35] Speaker 2: It's a video game where two players are playing together. I don't really understand the meaning of your question, to be honest. [00:12:45] Speaker 1: Isn't one of the things people do in these video games, try and kill everyone else with your guns? [00:12:51] Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a video game. It's just a video game. It's not real life. [00:13:01] Speaker 1: Now, you introduced yourself as living in Walworth County right now, is that right? Yes. On the date that this all happened, you were an Illinois resident? Correct. You had grown up in Illinois? Correct. You had not spent any significant time living here in Wisconsin, correct? No. You'd agree with me that's correct? [00:13:24] Speaker 2: No. I spent time in my father's house and partially live here also, so no, that's not correct. [00:13:31] Speaker 1: You indicated you had attended, was it Penn Foster High School? Yes. That's an online high school? Correct. So you were not attending high school in person? No. And at the time that all of the things in this case were happening, from the time the AR-15 was purchased, to the night of August 25th, you were 17 years old that entire time, correct? Correct. Can we have exhibit number 7 up, please? I have put exhibit number 7 up on the screen. That was a TikTok account that you had during the summer of 2020, correct? Yes. And it says your name on there, Kyle? Yes. Your username on TikTok was Four Doors More Whores? Yes. And that's a picture of you there with your AR-15, correct? Yes. And underneath that, you have put on your profile the phrase, Bruh, B-R-U-H, I'm just trying, T-R-Y-N-A, Be Famous. Is that correct? Yes. You're the one who wrote that? Yes. You testified that at some point you were involved in some sort of EMT cadet program. [00:14:57] Speaker 2: I was a firefighter EMT cadet at Antioch Fire Department. [00:15:00] Speaker 1: When was that? [00:15:01] Speaker 2: I was a cadet at the Antioch Fire Department, I believe, from 2018 or 2019 up until the incident of August 25th. [00:15:23] Speaker 1: An EMT cadet is someone who's just beginning the process of eventually achieving full EMT certification. Is that correct? No. Were you studying to be an EMT before August 25th, 2020? [00:15:38] Speaker 2: I was learning about certain things in the field of firefighting and EMS. But that's not actually formal classes, is it? No. We met once a week, and we would either, depending on the day, we would either do EMT stuff, like learning how to do airways, or we'd do firefighter stuff, like doing hose drags, and learning how to crawl through buildings. [00:16:06] Speaker 1: And these are things that you did with the, which firefighter, Antioch Fire Department? Antioch Fire Department. You weren't a member of the Fire Department, were you? I was. You were an actual, on-duty member on the roster of the Antioch Fire Department? No. No. So when you say you're a member, what do you mean? [00:16:26] Speaker 2: I was a member of the Antioch Fire Cadet Program. We were issued shirts, Antioch Fire Cadet member. We would help with the pancake breakfast at the VFWs, and we would wear Antioch Fire Department staff shirts. I still have one in my closet. [00:16:41] Speaker 1: And maybe I didn't express myself clearly. You were not a member of the Antioch Fire Department, correct? [00:16:49] Speaker 2: I was a member of the Cadet Program, which was through the Fire Department. So you'd go out and fight fires? We can go on ride-alongs, but we can't go into burning buildings for liability reasons. [00:17:00] Speaker 1: You'd go out there and you'd save people from burning buildings? [00:17:03] Speaker 2: Not me personally. [00:17:04] Speaker 1: Because as a cadet, they would never let you anywhere near that, right? [00:17:07] Speaker 2: They wouldn't let any of the cadets go into an actual live fire. [00:17:13] Speaker 1: At the end of whatever this program is, you weren't actually going to be an official firefighter, were you? [00:17:20] Speaker 2: No. It's to help prepare you for the Firefighter Academy, Firefighter EMT Academy. [00:17:25] Speaker 1: And you weren't going to be an EMT at the end of this program either, were you? No. You know that to be an EMT, you have to be 18 and a high school graduate, correct? [00:17:38] Speaker 2: Depending on the state. In Illinois, you can take a class at the college at 16 and you can have your EMT license by the age of 17. I wasn't in that class, but in Illinois you can. [00:17:48] Speaker 1: You never did any of that? [00:17:49] Speaker 2: No. I was online school. [00:17:52] Speaker 1: The night of August 25th, you're here in Kenosha, Wisconsin, saying you're an EMT, correct? Yes. That was a lie? Yes. You were also telling people you were 18 or 19 years old. That was a lie too, right? No, I didn't tell anybody my age that night. You never volunteered at all, did you? [00:18:10] Speaker 2: I didn't. [00:18:11] Speaker 1: Because you knew as a 17-year-old you shouldn't have been there, right? [00:18:16] Speaker 2: No, I just didn't find it relevant to give my name. Well, I gave my name, but my age to anybody. It just wasn't something that came up in conversation. [00:18:27] Speaker 1: It's because you felt if people found out how old you were, they'd realize you shouldn't have been there, right? [00:18:34] Speaker 2: No, it's just because it didn't come up in conversation. If somebody would have asked, I would have been like, yeah, I'm 17. [00:18:40] Speaker 1: So you felt that as a 17-year-old, it was appropriate for you to be out on the streets of Kenosha with an AR-15 that night. Fair? [00:18:49] Speaker 2: I believe I had any other right to be there as anybody else. As any other adult. As anybody. But you weren't an adult. No. [00:19:00] Speaker 1: You indicated that you were working at the RecPlex and had been working at the Y before that. Is that right? Yes. That was a YMCA down in Illinois, correct? Correct. And you had gotten furloughed there when COVID hit in March? [00:19:16] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:19:17] Speaker 1: And you had only started working at the RecPlex on August 14th, correct? [00:19:24] Speaker 2: I believe I got hired before that, but I was on vacation on August 14th, so I couldn't start until August 14th. [00:19:33] Speaker 1: Your first time working at the RecPlex was on August 14th, correct? I believe that was my first day. And then you worked the week after that from August 17th to August 23rd, correct? [00:19:46] Speaker 2: I believe so, until August 24th I worked. [00:19:49] Speaker 1: And then your final shift was on August 24th, correct? Yes. You worked a total of 41 and a half hours at the RecPlex, correct? [00:19:59] Speaker 2: That's the number you got. [00:20:01] Speaker 1: And you were a lifeguard? Yes. You were walking around their swim area with one of those red, long, life-saving things, monitoring the pool, correct? [00:20:12] Speaker 2: A rescue tube, yes. So, but that was at the indoor pool at the RecPlex? It was at the indoor, it was at the, I don't know if you're familiar with the RecPlex. I am. I guarded the water park area and the competition pool. [00:20:26] Speaker 1: Okay, so they've got a water park area with a slide and a zero-entry pool, is that right? Yes. And then next to that they've got a larger, almost Olympic-sized pool where swim meets happen. [00:20:36] Speaker 2: A 50-meter competition pool divided in half to make it a 25. Okay, and you were lifeguarding at both of those? I would rotate, we had rotations, and me and other guards, we would do three, we had three-person shifts. We would rotate out watching the different areas of ourselves. [00:20:58] Speaker 1: You indicated that at no time did this gun, this AR-15, ever leave the state of Wisconsin, is that right? [00:21:06] Speaker 2: Other than the night after, other than that. [00:21:10] Speaker 1: Before the shootings. Correct. There was a time, though, where you wanted to have it with you down in Illinois, isn't it? It wasn't there? [00:21:18] Speaker 2: I believe there was a time when I was, me and Dominic were mad at each other. Yeah. You were mad at Dominic? Me and Dominic were mad over something. And you wanted to have the gun with you down there? I think I said something along those lines. [00:21:34] Speaker 1: You'd agree with me that, let me back up for a second here. You have testified to this jury that you used deadly force against Joseph Rosenbaum, Anthony Huber, the man who attempted to kick you in the face, and Gage Grosskreutz on the night of August 25th, correct? Yes. And you did that because you felt that your life was in danger from those four people, correct? Yes. And you are telling this jury that it was, in your mind, justified to use deadly force to protect your own life, correct? [00:22:17] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:22:19] Speaker 1: You'd agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to protect that car source building, correct? [00:22:25] Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't using deadly force to protect the property. I used deadly force to protect myself, so. [00:22:32] Speaker 1: Please listen to my question and answer my question if you can. You'd agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to protect that car source building, correct? Yes. You'd agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to stop someone from smashing the windows of an unoccupied parked car, correct? [00:22:54] Speaker 2: I don't think you could use deadly force for that. [00:22:57] Speaker 1: You'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from lighting a metal dumpster on fire, correct? Correct. Correct. [00:23:04] Speaker ?: Correct. [00:23:04] Speaker 1: You'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from tipping over a port-a-potty, correct? Correct. You'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from lighting a flatbed trailer on fire, correct? Correct. You'd agree with me that you'd agree with me that you'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from lighting some traffic cones in the middle of the street on fire, correct? Correct. So you understand that there's a difference between using deadly force to protect yourself and using it to protect property, correct? Yes. And you'd agree with me that you're not allowed to use deadly force to protect property, correct? Yes. But yet you have previously indicated that you wished you had your AR-15 to protect someone's property, correct? [00:24:04] Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you to go into the library again for a moment, please. Please don't talk about the case. [00:24:13] Speaker 4: He's either forgetting the court's rulings or attempting to provoke a mistrial on this matter. He knows he can't go into this, and he's asking the questions. I ask the court to strongly admonish him, and the next time it happens, I'll be asking for a mistrial with prejudice. He's an experienced attorney, and he knows better. [00:24:36] Speaker 1: Mr. Finger? First of all, Your Honor, this was the subject of a motion. I'm well aware of that, and the court left the door open. [00:24:47] Speaker 3: For me, not for you. [00:24:52] Speaker 1: My understanding of your- [00:24:53] Speaker 3: You should have come and asked for reconsideration. You did on the one motion, and in fact, I granted your motion for reconsideration. That was not our motion. I did. We did not move to reconsider. That was their motion. We have not filed any motions to reconsider in this case. That was their motion for reconsideration, which I denied. But I said, I denied it, or I indicated a bias towards denial is what I did. Held it open with a bias towards denial. Why would you think that that made it okay for you without any advance notice to bring this matter before the jury? You are already, you were, I was astonished when you began your examination by commenting on the defendant's post-arrest silence. That's basic law. That's basic law. It's been basic law in this country for 40 years, 50 years. I have no idea why you would do something like that. And it gives, well, I'll leave it at that. So, I don't know what you're up to. [00:25:59] Speaker 1: May I respond? [00:26:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:26:02] Speaker 1: We filed another act's motion on this exact issue because, in my mind, and I argue this, it is identical to what was going on on the night of August 25th. In the sense that the defendant was using this exact same weapon, he was using it in a manner to try and protect property. [00:26:21] Speaker 3: No, he wasn't. [00:26:22] Speaker 1: There's, your honor, with all due respect. [00:26:25] Speaker 3: I'm not going to rehash the motion. That's absolutely untrue. It is. And there's, no, no, no. Your argument's of record. My comments are of record. And why I ruled as I did is of record. There's nothing that I heard in this trial to suggest anything's changed, even if you're correct in your assumption that you know more than I did at the time. You should have come to the court and say, I want to go into this. Why you would think that you could go into it without any advance notice to the court, I don't understand that. And as the defense is pointing out, you're an experienced trial lawyer, and this should not have been gone into. [00:27:02] Speaker 1: Your Honor, there have been things in this case, testimony in this case, that I believe opens the door to this. For example, the defense has introduced evidence that the defendant pointed a gun at a man wearing yellow pants because that person was on a car, on the car source lot. Now, there's no justification that I can think of why the defendant would point that gun at someone. The defendant has just testified this morning that he agreed with that person in the yellow pants that he pointed the gun at him. He said, I was joking when I said that to the guy in the yellow pants, but he said, he's acknowledged that he told the person in the yellow pants, yeah, you're right. I did point a gun at you when you were sitting on a car. [00:27:42] Speaker 3: He said, I did, that's what he said. Exactly. [00:27:44] Speaker 1: So he's agreeing, may I finish, please? I'd like to have a chance to make a record, if I could, without being interrupted, if that's okay. He has mentioned that he has, he's acknowledged that he's used this gun to protect property. He's also just acknowledged that he knows he can't do that. I am attempting to impeach him now with the prior August 10th incident, 15 days prior, involving the same gun where he is threatening to use that gun to protect property. [00:28:13] Speaker 3: He didn't have the gun, wasn't it? [00:28:15] Speaker 1: Your Honor, he is saying he wished he did so he could shoot people. [00:28:19] Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of difference between commenting about something when you haven't got a gun and threatening someone when you do. [00:28:27] Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, Your Honor, because the entire defense theory in this case is Joseph Rosenbaum, who was unarmed. [00:28:32] Speaker 3: Why don't you tell me what the defense theory of the case is? I want, look, look. [00:28:36] Speaker 1: May I respond to what you just said, Your Honor? I'd like to respond to what you just said. Can you slow down, please? I apologize, Madam Court Reporter, but I'd like to try and make a record without anyone interrupting me, if that's okay. I believe that there is a central part of this case that Mr. Rosenbaum is making threats that he has no ability to carry out. So, to your point, Your Honor, you're arguing that this August 10th incident, one aspect of why you don't believe it's relevant, is the defendant didn't have the gun with him. This case is about someone who didn't have a weapon, and yet the jury is being told, because of those threats, that means the defendant has to defend himself. So, with all due respect, Your Honor, mere verbal threats have already been shown to this jury and used as a basis for someone's subsequent actions. I am attempting, with the defendant, to use his mere verbal threat on August 10th, 15 days prior, that he's going to shoot shoplifters with his AR-15 to impeach the defendant in a murder trial. I would ask the court's forbearance to do that. I apologize, Your Honor. You're right. I probably should have brought this to your attention earlier. I may have misunderstood your ruling, because I thought your ruling was, if the evidence in this case made that more relevant, you would admit it, or at least consider it an admittance. I believe, based on the evidence that we've heard, and more specifically, exactly what the defendant said earlier about admitting pointing a gun at someone who was merely jumping or sitting on a car, that the door is open now to this testimony. And I continue to believe that his state of mind, his intent, his belief as to self-defense, is the core of this case. That was the basis for my motion. You were strongly inclined against it. I understand that. But now we're in the middle of trial, and there's been a lot of evidence that's come in that I think makes this relevant. So I'm attempting to impeach the defendant on his beliefs. I believe I'm entitled to impeach the defendant on his beliefs and on his statements. [00:30:40] Speaker 3: I'm going to interrupt you now, because you're talking about his beliefs. [00:30:43] Speaker 1: I think that's what they call his statements to your honor, because he just said, can't use deadly force, can't threaten to use deadly force to protect property. So now I'm impeaching him on that. [00:30:56] Speaker 4: Your honor, the court has seen no reason to change its ruling. And just so this record is clear, in spite of the lengthy statement by Mr. Binger, before we started today, the court specifically stated in Mr. Binger's presence, there's been nothing to have me change any of my rulings. There have been numerous occasions during this trial where they've opened the door. The one time when they're going into Mr. Rosenbaum's prior reason he doesn't like guns. And I said something. I whispered in Mr. Krause's ear. It's because of the prior convictions. Please stop. And he did. He knows if you're going to go into something that's been excluded in a pretrial order, you better get permission. This is ridiculous. [00:31:46] Speaker 1: It wasn't excluded, your honor. [00:31:48] Speaker 3: You know why it was excluded in the first place? Because it was propensity evidence. That is exactly what 90404 is designed to prevent. You're talking about his attitudes? His attitude is he wants to shoot people. Now, I've admitted that kind of evidence in other trials when it's been appropriate. I didn't admit it in this case because, to me, what I've heard in this trial, and by the way, Mr. Richards absolutely correctly points out that just hours ago, I said I had heard nothing in this trial to change any of my rulings. [00:32:22] Speaker 1: That was before the defense testimony, Your Honor. [00:32:23] Speaker 3: Pardon me? [00:32:24] Speaker 1: That was before the defense testimony. [00:32:25] Speaker 3: Don't get brazen with me. You knew very well. You know very well that an attorney can't go into these types of areas when the judge has already ruled without asking outside the presence of the jury to do so. So don't give me that. That's number one. Number two, this is propensity evidence. I said at the time that I made my ruling, and I'll repeat again now for you, I see no similarity between talking about wishing you had your AR gun, which you don't have, so that you could take fire rounds at these thought-to-be shoplifters, and the incidents in these cases, which are not, there's nothing in your case that suggests the defendant was lying in wait to shoot at somebody, or reflecting upon the shooting for a vast amount of time. Every one of the incidents involves matters that involve seconds in time. So I commented at the time, I don't see the similarity, and I don't see the similarity now. If it's not similar, that's the whole rule. Those are all the exceptions to 90404. Check the authorities. Weak more on evidence. Judge Weinstein. Colonel McCormick. It's the prior act has to bear the signature of the accused, or it has to be so similar as to suggest it's a common plan or something like that. You have an incident where he's making comments about some alleged shoplifters versus crimes that involve instantaneous actions, whether premeditated murder or whether self-defense, that's for the jury to decide. But I don't see the similarity. I said it couldn't come in, and it isn't coming in, no matter what you think. Number two, I have to be concerned that with what Mr. Richards has said about the progress of the trial, and when you were way, well, I said you were over the line, close to, or over the line on commenting on the defendant's pretrial silence, which is a well-known rule. So I'm astonished that that would have been an issue. So I don't want to have another issue as long as this case continues. Is that clear? It is. Thank you. I'll ask the jury to come back in, please. Folks, the objection has been sustained. Go ahead, Mr. Finger. Thank you, Judge. [00:35:19] Speaker 1: So I want to turn your attention to the day of August 25th, 2020. Okay. You had spent the night at Dominic Black's house. Is that right? Yes. And you indicated that you had worked at the RecPlex the night before. Is that right? The 24th, correct. Okay. And you worked until about 7 p.m.? [00:35:40] Speaker 2: I couldn't give you the exact time, but I'd say I got off around between 6 and 7. I don't recall it's been a while. [00:35:47] Speaker 1: And then you drove your car over to Dominic's house? [00:35:50] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:35:51] Speaker 1: Okay. So the rest of the time, it seems like you're being driven around in Mr. Black's car. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Why did you guys use his instead of yours, if you know? [00:36:03] Speaker 2: At the time, I didn't have a driver's license, and I would drive just to get to work and sometimes to go to Dominic's dad's house. [00:36:13] Speaker 1: So even though you didn't have a driver's license, you drove from your home in Antioch to the RecPlex to work that day? [00:36:20] Speaker 2: Yes, to be able to get to work. [00:36:22] Speaker 1: And then after work, you drove without a driver's license to Dominic Black's house? [00:36:27] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:36:28] Speaker 1: So I assume then on the week prior to that, when you'd drive yourself to work, that was also without a driver's license? [00:36:34] Speaker 3: I have no objection to this. Let's go ahead. [00:36:38] Speaker 1: I'll move on. So you drove to Mr. Black's house, you left your car there. Yes. And you spent the night at his house. Yes. And then the next day, you guys woke up at some point and came down to Ruther. Is that right? [00:36:54] Speaker 2: I spent the night at his house and had dinner, woke up in the morning. At breakfast, we were going through social media, I was on social media and we saw the damage and we saw the car source. So we decided to go downtown. [00:37:13] Speaker 1: And you came down in Dominic's car? Correct. And you said that there was a time in which you were cleaning graffiti at Ruther. Yes. And then at some point, I believe you said, and I want to make sure I'm understanding the timeline here, that you went to one of the car sources and encountered the owners, Sam or Sal or whoever they are, correct? Yes. Which of the car source locations was that? [00:37:40] Speaker 2: It was the car source right here. [00:37:42] Speaker 1: And that's the one at the northeast corner of 59th and Sheridan? Correct. And that's the one that had gotten totally burned out on one of the previous nights? [00:37:50] Speaker 2: Yes. That was the one where everything was destroyed. The other car sources still had cars there. [00:37:56] Speaker 1: Now, before that, had you ever worked at car source before? I have not. Had you ever bought a car there before? I have not. Had you ever even heard of car source before all that? Yes. Through Dominic? [00:38:08] Speaker 2: Well, no. I would drive past it on a daily basis. I was in Kenosha almost every day and I'd drive down Sheridan Road almost every day. [00:38:18] Speaker 1: So you saw the business along with the churches and the ultimate gas station and the courthouse and everything else in that area? Yes. Okay. And you talked to these owners yourself? Me and Dominic did. And did they ask you to come protect the property? [00:38:38] Speaker 2: They didn't ask me. Directly? They didn't ask me directly. They asked Nick Smith. [00:38:43] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:38:43] Speaker 2: And was Nick Smith around for that at that moment? He wasn't there when me and Dominic were talking to them. [00:38:48] Speaker 1: Did you ever personally witness any of these car source folks, Sal or Sam, or any of the folks that were running that business, did you ever personally witness them ask Nick Smith to guard any of them ask anyone to guard any of their properties? Not that I can recall. What time, if you recall, did you find out that they'd ask Nick Smith? [00:39:22] Speaker 2: I believe I said in my direct examination between 315 and 330. [00:39:29] Speaker 1: And that was shortly after you had sent a text to Sam, right? Correct. And you texted him and asked him if you could protect his business that night, correct? [00:39:43] Speaker 2: I did. [00:39:44] Speaker 1: And in that text you said, I'm more than willing and will be armed, correct? Yes. You meant you'd be armed with your AR-15? Yes. And you said that me and my brother would both be there armed, correct? Yes. By your brother you meant Dominic? Yes. He's obviously not legally your brother. No. And you said in the text, I just need address. Do you recall that? Yes. [00:40:12] Speaker 2: Why did you need the address of a location you'd already been to? I just wanted to like pinpoint it on the Google Maps because GPS, because you know with all the roads were closed down in Kenosha, I just wanted to know the best route to drive there with Dominic. [00:40:29] Speaker 1: But you just told us that you drove past here every day up and down Sheridan. Why did you need GPS to help you find a place that you drive past every day? The roads weren't closed when I drove past them every day. But you still knew where you were going, right? [00:40:44] Speaker 2: Sort of, but with like the back roads. [00:40:48] Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about the roads being closed. What do you mean by that? [00:40:52] Speaker 2: Well, Sheridan Road was closed off and I'm trying to remember. I don't think there are a lot of roads closed off. I couldn't tell you exactly their names right now. [00:41:03] Speaker 1: Was that because there was construction going on? [00:41:06] Speaker 2: No, they were closed off because of the riots. [00:41:08] Speaker 1: They were closed off to keep people out of the area, right? [00:41:13] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:41:14] Speaker 1: And you knew there was a curfew that night, right? [00:41:19] Speaker 2: I believe I got an emergency alert text at around 8 p.m. [00:41:24] Speaker 1: Just like everybody else saying, stay off the streets. [00:41:27] Speaker ?: I'm sorry. [00:41:28] Speaker 4: Objection. There's no curfew charge. [00:41:30] Speaker 1: It's still relevant to his decision making. Just like everybody else, you got a message saying, get off the streets at 8 o'clock that night, right? Yes. And despite that message, you came down, correct? [00:41:46] Speaker 2: I was already in Kenosha downtown when I got that message. [00:41:50] Speaker 1: Once you got that message, you didn't decide, I'm going to leave and go home like I'm supposed to, correct? [00:41:57] Speaker 2: I stayed at the car source. [00:41:59] Speaker 1: And you knew that there was this curfew in place that meant you shouldn't be there anymore, correct? [00:42:07] Speaker 2: There were, I'd say, hundreds, if not thousands, of other people there that night that also got the same message. [00:42:16] Speaker 1: So if they're all breaking the law, you can too? I was, I don't think the curfew was really being enforced. So if the law is not being enforced, you can disregard it? [00:42:27] Speaker 3: Not in it, Your Honor. It's our community. [00:42:36] Speaker 1: You said that there was a time in which Nick Smith asked you guys to drive him down to Chicago. Correct. To buy a piece of body armor. Correct. Down by O'Hare. Correct. And you guys were willing to do that at first. [00:42:56] Speaker 2: Dominic was willing to do it. It was more of Dominic's thing because Nick Smith was going to throw in like 20 bucks to Dominic when he bought it for like gas. [00:43:07] Speaker 1: So Nick Smith was going to pay $20 for the gas to drive down to O'Hare where Nick Smith was planning on buying this body armor. Yes. And he needed that body, or the idea was the body armor would be used that night, correct? I believe so. I believe so. That's why there was some urgency about going down right away, right? Yeah. This was part of the plan to come down to downtown that night, right? [00:43:36] Speaker 2: He wanted to go to O'Hare to buy the body armor, so yes? [00:43:41] Speaker 1: Do you understand my question? [00:43:43] Speaker 2: Can you rephrase it? Sure. Absolutely. [00:43:46] Speaker 1: The urgency to get that body armor that day was because he needed it for that night, right? I wouldn't say he needed it, but he wanted it. And instead of making the drive, you gave that body, your own body armor, to Nicholas Smith? Correct. You had it along with you? Yes. You brought it along with you that day because you thought you might need it yourself that night, correct? No, I kept it in my trunk of the car. I always had it. [00:44:16] Speaker 2: You drive around with body armor in the trunk of your car regularly? Well, it was just in the back of my trunk. I never really took it out. [00:44:26] Speaker 1: And you said at some point that day you went to Jelinski's, that's the hunting goods, fishing store out on Highway 31 and 52nd Street, to buy a couple of slings, is that right? That's correct. And this was one sling for you and one for Dominic, right? Yes. And you bought two of the identical type of sling, correct? [00:44:48] Speaker 2: Yes, the cheapest ones they had. [00:44:51] Speaker 1: And that's a single-point sling, meaning it attaches to the gun in one location, correct? Yes. And then it wraps around your body, correct? Yes. And it's designed to help you retain possession of that weapon, correct? [00:45:06] Speaker 2: You'd probably know more about them than I do. I just got it to hold the rifle. So when I'm doing medical aid, I don't have to sit on the ground and have to worry about it being stolen. [00:45:16] Speaker 1: Because you realized that you couldn't have that gun on you while you're doing any sort of medical aid, correct? [00:45:24] Speaker 2: I knew that I couldn't without a sling have it on me. That's why I got the sling, so I could have my hands free. [00:45:31] Speaker 1: But even when you had the sling, there was a time in which you took off your entire gun apparatus and handed it to Joanne Fiedler because it was in the way of you trying to treat someone, right? [00:45:44] Speaker 2: At that instance, yes, because it was hitting the ground. The rifle was hitting the ground. When I bought it, that was the purpose of it. I don't think it really worked now that I think of it. [00:45:57] Speaker 1: This big, long AR-15 really got in the way whenever you tried to help someone, right? Sometimes. If you had a handgun, for example, it would have been physically more easy for you to try and treat someone. Fair? [00:46:14] Speaker 2: If I could have legally carried a handgun, I would have carried a handgun instead of a pistol. I mean, instead of a rifle. [00:46:26] Speaker 1: You grabbed some medical supplies from Dominic Black's house before you came downtown that night, correct? [00:46:35] Speaker 2: I grabbed extra gauze, but that's about it. [00:46:47] Speaker 1: You testified earlier that your AR-15 was loaded with 30 rounds of ammunition. Is that right? [00:46:54] Speaker 2: Yes. Where did that ammunition come from? That was from our last trip up north, from May, the time we took it up north. [00:47:02] Speaker 1: So when the gun was left at Dominic's Black's house, it had that ammunition with it? [00:47:09] Speaker 2: Yeah, the ammo was in a box, in a magazine, I don't really know. [00:47:14] Speaker 1: When you were at Dominic Black's house on August 25th, you found that AR-15 downstairs in his basement, correct? No. Where did you find it at? No. Where did you find it at? [00:47:27] Speaker 2: It was downstairs in the basement, but I was told by Dominic Black, hey, go downstairs, grab that rifle, grab your rifle. [00:47:36] Speaker 1: So you knew up until that rifle that rifle was being stored in a gun safe in a gun safe in the garage, correct? Correct. And you didn't have the code or any access to that gun safe, correct? I did not. It just happened that on this particular day, Dominic Black's stepfather had moved that gun into the house, correct? Yes. You didn't know that beforehand? I did not. You didn't know that it had been taken out of the safe? No. And so you went downstairs and grabbed it? [00:48:09] Speaker 2: After instructed to do so by Dominic, I did. [00:48:11] Speaker 1: And it had that magazine? [00:48:13] Speaker 2: After I was instructed to do so by Dominic, I did go downstairs and grab it. [00:48:22] Speaker 1: And it had the magazine already inserted in the rifle? It did. And the magazine was already loaded with 30 rounds? I believe so. When did you chamber around? [00:48:33] Speaker 2: I don't know if I ever did. Well, you had to have to fire the gun, right? Yeah, I think it was already chambered when I got it. That's what I remember. I don't remember racking it at all that night. [00:48:46] Speaker 1: Because the way this type of gun works is that you have to have a magazine with ammo in it. You have to insert the magazine into the gun, and then you have to rack it to load one of those rounds into the chamber, correct? Yes. And you were familiar with how to do all of that, correct? Yes. And it can't discharge a bullet unless a bullet is racked into the chamber, correct? Correct. And so your testimony here, as best you can recall, is that you never had to do the initial racking because the bullet was already in the chamber when you took possession of it that day. Yes. Is that fair to say? [00:49:24] Speaker 2: I believe that it was already racked. [00:49:28] Speaker 1: And the ammunition that was in that was full metal jacket ammunition, correct? 223 full metal jacket. 223 being the caliber. Yes. And full metal jacket being the type of casing, correct? Yes. Full metal jacket is the bullet type. The bullet type. Okay. I apologize. And you're aware there are different types of bullets, like hollow point bullets, correct? Yes. Yes. And when you were in the process of purchasing this gun, well, let me back up for a second. You said that the 30 rounds of ammo were left over from previous. I assume you mean when you were up in Ladysmith? Yes. And you were practicing with the gun up there? Yes. And they, Dominic Black's family has some sort of firing range or shooting range up there. Is that right? [00:50:18] Speaker 2: They have a gravel pit where it's safe to shoot. [00:50:23] Speaker 1: And you and Dominic would practice with your AR-15s shooting at targets in that gravel pit, correct? Correct. And you would shoot at targets as far as, what, 75 yards away? No. How close were the targets? [00:50:36] Speaker 2: I was about, I was about, I think the furthest I ever got was maybe from me to the TV. [00:50:47] Speaker 1: You didn't shoot at any targets farther away than that? No. Dominic Black testified that he shot at targets 75 yards away. Did you see him do that? [00:50:57] Speaker 2: I didn't, but I don't know what Dominic Black saw or what Dominic Black was shooting at. I wasn't with him when he did that. [00:51:06] Speaker 1: But you were aware of the fact that the AR-15 was capable of hitting targets much further away than you to the TV, correct? [00:51:16] Speaker 2: I believe so. [00:51:18] Speaker 1: Did you know the capabilities of your own weapon? [00:51:22] Speaker 2: I knew that it could shoot, and I believe from a distance. I don't know how far. I'm not an expert on AR-15s. [00:51:32] Speaker 1: Did you personally purchase that .223 full metal jacket ammunition? I did not. Who did? Dominic did. Did you ask him to purchase it? I did not. So you didn't know what type of ammo was in that gun. Is that right? [00:51:54] Speaker 2: I knew they were .223 full metal jackets. I, the first time I shot it, I had to load it into the magazine. [00:52:02] Speaker 1: So you knew the type of round, but you didn't know what those rounds were capable of doing. Is that fair to say? [00:52:12] Speaker 2: Believe a bullet's a bullet. [00:52:16] Speaker 1: As you sit here today, you know that there are different types of bullets, right? Yes. You know that hollow point bullets, for example, do different things to an animal or a human than full metal jacket bullets, correct? [00:52:29] Speaker 2: Yeah, full metal jacket is a, like a defense round, like another type of defense round. I know people use full metal jacket for hunting, and hollow point is something that causes more damage. [00:52:47] Speaker 1: Hollow point bullets are designed to hit the animal that they're being shot at. Let's say a deer, for example, and explode inside that body, correct? [00:52:59] Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. [00:53:02] Speaker 3: When you say explode, are you saying expand or explode? Because there are such things as exploding bullets. Sure. [00:53:09] Speaker 1: Let me rephrase. Mr. Rittenhouse, what is your understanding of what a hollow point bullet would do if it were shot at, say, a deer? I don't think people use hollow point. That wasn't my question, sir. What is your understanding of what that bullet would do? Let me rephrase it then, because you're aware that people use hollow point bullets in their pistols to defend themselves against other people, correct? Yes. Ryan Balch, for example, testified in this trial that he was carrying a pistol loaded with hollow point ammunition for self-defense. Do you remember that testimony? I do. So what is your understanding, if you have one, as to what hollow point ammunition would do to a human? [00:53:50] Speaker 2: I believe it would do the same thing as any other bullet. Like I said, a bullet's a bullet. I just believe hollow points, I'm sorry, I don't know much about ammo. I'm trying to think of what I remember, but I just don't know much about ammo. [00:54:09] Speaker 1: So you didn't know the difference between what a full metal jacket bullet would do versus a hollow point, right? [00:54:15] Speaker 2: I believe a hollow point, I just don't know much about this. I believe a hollow point would cause more damage. [00:54:25] Speaker 1: To the first target. But it wouldn't continue through to any other targets, right? [00:54:29] Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that. [00:54:31] Speaker 1: Whereas a full metal jacket bullet is specifically designed to continue through its first target and keep flying. [00:54:39] Speaker 3: I don't know the answer to that, but I don't know the answer to that, but I don't know the answer to that. [00:54:43] Speaker ?: I don't know the answer to that, but I don't know the answer, but I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to that. [00:54:46] Speaker 3: First of all, the hollow point is not guaranteed to stay in the first object struck, which is, so what you said was not correct. Secondly, no, but you've been testifying and that's what Mr. That's what, we're going to break a break for lunch. Good afternoon, Mr. Rittenhouse. [00:55:10] Speaker 1: Good afternoon. You testified earlier that there were times that evening when Mr. Rosenbaum had threatened you. Is that right? Yes. And you described him as wearing a red shirt with a blue bandana. Is that correct? [00:55:26] Speaker 2: At certain times. When he threatened you, that's what he was wearing? I believe the first time he threatened me, he was wearing a red shirt with a blue bandana. The second time he had it wrapped around his face. Had what wrapped around his face? His T-shirt. [00:55:42] Speaker 1: So he wasn't wearing a shirt the second time around? Correct. And you indicated at one point you thought he had a chain in his hand? I believe he, so. When he made the threat to you with the red shirt on and the blue bandana, did he have the chain in his hand? [00:56:02] Speaker 2: I think one of the times he did. Okay, so which of the times was it? I can't recall off the top of my head. I think it was the time when he was threatening to cut people's hearts out. [00:56:18] Speaker 1: I don't need to know the threat, I just need to know which time it was. Was it the first time or the second time? What was he wearing the second time? What was he wearing the second time? [00:56:26] Speaker 2: He was masked, well, the shirt wrapped around his face. And he didn't have the, he didn't have a shirt on his torso? Correct. [00:56:32] Speaker 1: And you could see when he didn't have a shirt on his torso that he didn't have any gun tucked in his waistband, correct? I wasn't paying attention to that, I was, I was behind Joanne Fiedler. I was somewhere over there. So how far away were you from Mr. Rosenbaum when he made the second threat? [00:56:57] Speaker 2: By 15, 10, 15 feet, I'm not really certain. But you were close enough to hear the words out of his mouth? Yes. And you took that as a threat to you personally? I took the first one where he said if I catch you alone I'm going to kill you. I took that as a threat to me personally. The second time I took that as a threat to the group. [00:57:19] Speaker 1: Can we have that photo Exhibit 138 up on the screen please? Do you see Mr. Rosenbaum in this picture? I do. And he's in the middle of the picture wearing the red shirt with the blue bandana carrying the plastic bag, correct? Yes. Is that the way he looked when he made the first threat to you? Yes. And he was carrying that plastic bag with him when he made that threat too, correct? Correct. How close was he when he made that first threat to you? [00:58:14] Speaker 2: Close. I couldn't give you an exact estimate but he was close, less than 5 feet. So, closer than Madam Court Reporter is to you now? I'd say about the same if not a little bit closer. [00:58:27] Speaker 1: And you were next to Mr. Balch when that was said? Correct. Was anyone else there besides you, Mr. Balch and Mr. Rosenbaum? I believe there were other demonstrators around. And you've seen in this trial that there's been a lot of video footage of that night, correct? Yes. And you've seen in this trial that there's a lot of video footage of you that night, correct? Yes. You'd agree with me that there's no video of either one of these threats, correct? [00:58:57] Speaker 2: I don't know if somebody filmed it that I'm aware of right now. You're not aware of any, are you? I'm not. [00:59:05] Speaker 1: So, Mr. Rosenbaum looked like that at the time of the first threat but then looked different at the time of the second threat? Is that right? Yes. And did you say he was carrying the chain when he made the first threat or the second one? The second. Okay. And he was still carrying that plastic bag the second time? Yes. That plastic bag has a clear side to it that allows you to see inside of it, right? Sorta. I didn't really look into the bag. So you didn't know what was in the bag at all? I didn't. Did he swing the chain at you when he made the second threat? He did not. Did he physically touch you when he made the second threat? No, he didn't. In fact, that entire evening he never once touched your body, did he? He grabbed my gun when he attacked me. And that's why I asked the question the way I did it. He never touched your body that night, correct? [01:00:02] Speaker 2: He didn't touch me physically. [01:00:04] Speaker 1: Okay. And neither the first or the second time did he run at you or charge at you or anything like that, did he? He didn't chase me. He didn't even do anything physically aggressive to you, did he? No. He just said some words. Yes. And that chain that he had in his hand, he never did anything to physically threaten you with that chain, correct? Yes. Is that correct? That's correct. And other than the chain that you've described, at no point in the evening did you ever see Joseph Rosenbaum with any other type of weapon, correct? That that I saw. Never saw him with a gun, correct? Never saw him with a knife, correct? Never saw him with a bat, correct? Never saw him with a club, correct? Correct. [01:00:50] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:00:51] Speaker 1: How far apart in time were these two threats that you say Mr. Rosenbaum made to you? [01:01:03] Speaker 2: I want to say, I can't give you a definite time, I wasn't looking at my clock, but I'd say within the same hour. [01:01:18] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:01:19] Speaker 1: And both of those threats occurred while you were on the 59th Street property? [01:01:25] Speaker 2: The second threat happened at the corner and the first threat happened towards Ruther Central High School. [01:01:38] Speaker 1: Okay. Could you use that laser pointer and point out on that map where the first threat occurred? [01:01:44] Speaker 2: The first threat happened right here in front of the building. [01:01:48] Speaker 1: So you're pointing at a location that is by the 59th Street car source on the south side of that property along the building and Sheridan Road on the west side of the road. Would that be accurate? Yes. Okay. And you said there was a second threat within an hour after that, correct? Yes. Where was that threat at? [01:02:09] Speaker 2: It was somewhere over here, I remember, like on the other side of the property towards Ruther Central. More towards the northeast corner of that same property? [01:02:19] Speaker 1: Correct. But you were still on the car source property when that second threat was allegedly made, correct? Yes. Yes. Did you remember what Mr. Rosenbaum had said to you later on when he's confronting you at the 63rd Street car source? [01:02:46] Speaker 2: I took a mental picture of his face when he said those threats. I recognized that was him that said that when he started chasing me. [01:02:56] Speaker 1: So when you are running away from him at the 63rd Street car source, you're thinking to yourself, this is the guy who had made a threat to me earlier. Is that fair to say? [01:03:08] Speaker 2: I was thinking this is the guy that said, if he catches me alone, he'll kill me as I'm running away from him. [01:03:15] Speaker 1: The reason I asked Mr. Rittenhouse is how did you know it was the same guy when he's changed the way he looks? His appearance, the shorts, his height. But in both of those instances that you've described, he's got something covering his face. Either the blue bandana in one instance or the red shirt in a different instance, correct? [01:03:39] Speaker 2: He was wearing the red shirt when he chased me around his head. [01:03:43] Speaker 1: So you remember that from the second time that you say he threatened you? Yes. And you thought to yourself, this is the same guy? Yes. So when you eventually were getting to the point where you're going down to the 63rd Street car source right before the shooting, you recognized him as your following down the street, didn't you? I didn't follow Mr. Rosenbaum down the street. He was in front of you, you know that now, right? I know that now. But you didn't see him ahead of you as you were walking down there that night? No, it was dark out. But you, at some point as you get close to the 63rd Street car source, start running towards that lot, right? [01:04:26] Speaker 2: Towards the fire in the Duramax. [01:04:29] Speaker 1: And Mr. Rosenbaum is running ahead of you, isn't he? I don't believe so. I don't believe so. But you decided you needed to run because of the fire on the Duramax? Yes. Why? What was so urgent? [01:04:42] Speaker 2: It was a fire. There's fires all over the place, so? I was getting to the fire to put it out. [01:04:51] Speaker 1: We'll get back to that in a second. You indicated that while you were at the 59th Street car source, you said you put out a fire at the church next door. Is that right? Yes. Did you hear Joanne Fiedler's testimony yesterday that when you guys went over there, somebody had put some sort of flammable liquid on the door? Did you hear that testimony? [01:05:15] Speaker 2: I did. [01:05:16] Speaker 1: I believe that was referring to the Ruther Central High School. Okay. So when she described it as happening at the church, do you think that she was getting it confused? Yes. Okay. So whatever happened with this flammable liquid on the door, the point is some other group, some other people put that out before you even got there. [01:05:39] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:05:40] Speaker 1: Why did you feel that you should go around off the 59th Street car source property and put out fires? [01:05:54] Speaker 2: To make sure my community didn't get burnt down and help. [01:05:59] Speaker 1: And when you say your community, you mean Kenosha? Yes. Again, you're from Antioch. You're not living in Kenosha at this time when this all happens, right? My dad lives in Kenosha. [01:06:12] Speaker 2: Lots of people live in Kenosha, but you didn't, right? My residence was in Antioch. Okay. [01:06:18] Speaker 1: But you felt like you wanted to do things to protect this community. Fair? The community that I was part of, yes. And you felt like it was appropriate for you to take matters into your own hands to put out fires, for example? [01:06:40] Speaker 2: To put out fires by using a fire extinguisher, yes. [01:06:43] Speaker 1: Even though they weren't on the 59th Street property, correct? Correct. And were there other things that you decided it would be appropriate for you to go out there and take care of off the 59th Street property that night? I was walking around and asking people if they needed medical help. So you felt that you wanted to go out and help people, help protect people, help people feel better, treat people, things like that, even off the 59th Street property? Provide first aid. Normally, in our regular society, that's something that we call 911 for, right? Normally, yes. Where are we at it? I think that the defendant's decisions to go off that property and involve himself in other matters are relevant, Your Honor. [01:07:43] Speaker 3: Well, I'll let you pursue it, but... [01:07:47] Speaker 1: And that's exactly how these shootings happen, so... [01:07:52] Speaker 3: Well, that's what the trial is about. Which is why I think it's wrong. Go ahead, go ahead. [01:08:00] Speaker 1: Go ahead. Normally, we would, if there's a fire, if there's somebody committing a crime, you call 911, right? Normally, yes. You didn't feel like you could do that that night, correct? [01:08:15] Speaker 2: I don't think that... I saw from the nights prior that the fire department wasn't responding to put out fires. [01:08:24] Speaker 1: Well, the nights before, there were businesses on fire along 22nd Avenue, there's the car source, large-scale property fires on the prior nights, correct? Yes. On the night of August 25th, we didn't have any fires like that. We just had a couple of dumpsters, smaller things, right? That I saw, yes. That I saw, yes. But regardless of how big the fire is, you felt that night that calling 911 was not an option, correct? [01:09:06] Speaker 2: I didn't feel that if I had called 911, anyone would show up. Which is why you decided to take care of it yourself, correct? [01:09:15] Speaker 1: To provide first aid and put out fires. To do the things that normally we would expect the police or the fire department to do, correct? [01:09:27] Speaker 2: To help people, yes. [01:09:29] Speaker 1: Could you please move that microphone a little closer so we can make sure we hear everything you're saying? You can adjust if you need to move it a little closer. Thank you. [01:09:43] Speaker 3: Thank you. Let me interrupt for just a moment. How's the temperature? How many are comfortable the way things are? Okay. I won't even ask the other side. See you ice cubes? There's nothing to worry about. It must be blowing differently here. Go ahead, Mr. [01:10:05] Speaker 1: You came to Kenosha that night armed with the AR-15 and no other ways to physically defend yourself, correct? [01:10:19] Speaker 2: I had an AR-15, yes. [01:10:21] Speaker 1: Other than that, you had no other weapons or devices that you could use to defend yourself that night, correct? Yes. There's an interview in which you say you're not caring anything non-lethal. Do you recall that? I do. You indicated in response to one of your attorney's questions that there was no friction with the protestors that night. Did I understand you correctly? By friction you mean? Well, I'm using your words, sir. I heard you say in response to your attorney's question that there was no friction with the protestors that night. Did I hear you correctly? Yes. And you're describing what you observed when you were at the 59th Street car source. Fair enough? Yes. So, based on your several hours at that location, it seemed to you as though the crowd of, however you want to describe them, they've been called rioters, protesters, demonstrators, and you, things were fine. No tension, no friction, no nothing. No tension, no friction, no nothing. [01:11:36] Speaker 2: Fair to say? For the most part, other than Mr. Rosenbaum. [01:11:39] Speaker 1: He was the only one. That threatened. Yes. That you saw. Yes. Can we please play exhibit number 18 at the 1 hour and 22 second and 14, I'm sorry, 22 minute and 14 second mark. [01:11:56] Speaker 5: And militia are up there. [01:12:01] Speaker ?: We need water. [01:12:05] Speaker 6: Yeah, we got a fire. [01:12:07] Speaker 5: Where? [01:12:08] Speaker ?: Dumpster fire. [01:12:09] Speaker 5: Oh, dumpster fire. Yeah, just a dumpster fire. [01:12:11] Speaker 6: Hey, it's just a year, man. [01:12:14] Speaker 5: Yeah, right? If 2020 was a blunt, it would be just a stem. Yeah, it would just be standing seat, man. I could use a doobie right now. All right, let's. [01:12:31] Speaker ?: Hey, guys. [01:12:32] Speaker 5: Morning. [01:12:33] Speaker 6: How's it going? You guys want a fire to find out? [01:12:37] Speaker 5: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. You won't do it. [01:12:40] Speaker 6: That's what's up. [01:12:41] Speaker 5: Reel in. Reel in. Don't cause problems when there's none here. [01:12:46] Speaker 6: Protect your property. Protect your property, not the street. Yeah, that's true. [01:12:49] Speaker 5: Just stay on your property. Protect your property, not the street. [01:12:51] Speaker 6: Protect your property, not the street. [01:12:52] Speaker 5: Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. [01:12:55] Speaker 6: Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. [01:12:57] Speaker ?: Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. [01:12:59] Speaker 6: Protect your property, not the street. I have to agree with her. [01:13:02] Speaker 5: Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. [01:13:04] Speaker 6: Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. Protect your property, not the street. [01:13:12] Speaker 5: I have to agree with her that they shouldn't be on the street. [01:13:16] Speaker ?: Hey. [01:13:17] Speaker 5: They're just protecting their property. One of the other guys is an asshole. [01:13:22] Speaker 7: I know. I thought they were yelling at them. I was like, why? Well, we did because they lit it on fire. [01:13:26] Speaker 5: One of the guys is losing his patience. He should go inside. Yeah, that's what we're about to send him. Yeah, that's what we're about to send him. Yeah, if you guys could switch him out. Somebody's a loose cannon. He's got a lot of rage. He says the wrong thing. This whole crowd burns you guys alive. Protect your property. They're respecting that. Just keep it there. [01:13:44] Speaker 6: Hey, let's keep it moving, guys. We're not coming. Fuck the police. Let's go. We're going to protect the bus. Dude. He's just trying to protect his property. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:06] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:13] Speaker 6: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:23] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:29] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:31] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:32] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:33] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:35] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:40] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:43] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:14:47] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:15:02] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:15:05] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:15:08] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. [01:15:09] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. [01:15:10] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:15:28] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:15:34] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:16] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:18] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:28] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:31] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:33] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:41] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:42] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:16:49] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:00] Speaker 3: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:02] Speaker 4: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:04] Speaker 3: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:12] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:18] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:33] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:35] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:37] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:39] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:40] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:45] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:46] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. I'm going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:51] Speaker 2: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:17:56] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:18:20] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:18:28] Speaker 1: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:18:33] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:19:07] Speaker 6: You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. You guys are going to get ready. [01:19:11] Speaker ?: You guys are going to get ready. [01:19:20] Speaker 1: In that video, you indicate that you have your AR-15 to protect yourself. Correct? Yes. And you indicate that you are going to run out there and treat anyone who needs medical help. Correct? Yes. Were you going to bring the gun along when you did that? [01:19:41] Speaker 2: Yes. To defend yourself while you are treating someone. If I needed to defend myself while treating somebody, yes. [01:19:49] Speaker 1: If you didn't think there was friction with the crowd and you were out there trying to help, why did you expect there would be any danger? [01:20:01] Speaker 2: From the previous nights when I saw people being assaulted. [01:20:06] Speaker 1: Were they medics being assaulted? I don't know who they were. [01:20:11] Speaker 2: I know one of them was just trying to put out a fire at his business. [01:20:15] Speaker 1: So you saw someone who was trying to put out a fire who got assaulted. [01:20:21] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:20:22] Speaker 1: But if you are going to help people, why would you expect anyone to try and hurt you? [01:20:30] Speaker 2: I don't know. Somebody did try to hurt me and I was helping people. [01:20:36] Speaker 1: Well, that came, you are talking about later on. [01:20:39] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:20:40] Speaker 1: But at this moment in time, this is before the shootings. [01:20:42] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:20:43] Speaker 1: This is before you cross 60th, before you deal with Rosenbaum, Huber, Grosskreutz, all that. Right? Yes. At this moment in time, you don't think there's a hostile crowd. You're there to help people and yet you're going to run out there with the AR-15. I don't understand why you felt that you were going to be in danger if you're out in a friendly, what you think is a friendly crowd, helping them. [01:21:06] Speaker 2: I didn't say I didn't think they were hostile. I didn't think they were hostile towards us. Okay. [01:21:13] Speaker 1: So they're not hostile to you and you're going to go help them. Why do you need the gun when you go out there? [01:21:19] Speaker 2: I need the gun because if I had to protect myself because somebody attacked me. [01:21:26] Speaker 1: Why would you think anybody would do that? I don't know. But you clearly planned on it. You were prepared for it. You thought it was going to happen. No, I didn't. That's the whole reason you brought the gun, isn't it? [01:21:37] Speaker 2: I brought the gun to protect myself. Exactly. [01:21:40] Speaker 1: Because you thought you personally were going to be in danger. Right? [01:21:46] Speaker 2: Not necessarily. [01:21:48] Speaker 1: I don't understand. You said you're going to bring the gun to protect yourself. So you thought you were going to be in danger. Right? [01:21:57] Speaker 2: I didn't think I would be put into a situation where I would have to defend myself. [01:22:02] Speaker 1: You said that the people around you on that property and the people up on the roof were there to protect you. That's what you said in the video. Right? Yes. You meant when you go out in the crowd, they're going to protect you. Right? [01:22:22] Speaker 2: Watch over me. [01:22:23] Speaker 1: Yes. They're going to go over and protect you. Right? [01:22:26] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:22:27] Speaker 1: Again, because you expected that if you go out in that crowd to try and provide medical service, you thought you were going to get attacked? [01:22:37] Speaker 2: They were to watch me. They were on the roof to watch me and if somebody was to attack me in their view, they could say, "Hey, Kyle, watch out." [01:22:54] Speaker 1: They've got AR-15s. Yes. We talked earlier about the fact that the AR-15, you can't use deadly force to protect the building, right? Correct. The AR-15 was to protect you, right? That's what you just said. [01:23:13] Speaker 2: Not the AR-15. I said they could shout down to me and be like, "Hey, Kyle, watch out." [01:23:19] Speaker 1: So they're just carrying around the AR-15s for no reason? [01:23:23] Speaker 2: I don't know why they're carrying around the AR-15s. [01:23:31] Speaker 1: Can we play exhibit? This is the end. At the end of this video is where you invite Mr. McGinnis to follow you and Ryan Balch, correct? Yes. And you invited him to do that because you want, I think you said on, when your attorney was asking you questions, that you wanted him to film you while you were out in the crowd doing your thing, correct? Right. [01:23:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, I said it was okay for him to film me. [01:23:58] Speaker 1: Let's play exhibit 17, please. [01:24:09] Speaker 6: It's kind of like medics you were packing. Okay. [01:24:13] Speaker ?: Well, he's an EMT. That's it. [01:24:16] Speaker 6: A certified EMT? No. [01:24:19] Speaker ?: Got it. [01:24:22] Speaker 1: Just asked you, so you're a certified EMT, and you said yes, correct? Yes. That was a lie, correct? I'm not an EMT. You're not a certified EMT. You're not an EMT of any kind. You weren't on that night, correct? Yes. So you lied to him, correct? [01:24:42] Speaker 2: I told him I was an EMT, but I wasn't. [01:24:45] Speaker 1: And you knew you were being interviewed by someone in the media when you told that lie, didn't you? Didn't you? Yes. Please continue. Can we back up 10 seconds please? And then just pause right there. We just heard a voice say something to you, Mr. Balch, about people throwing rocks or something along those lines. I don't really need to know exactly what they said, but did you hear that voice? The police officer from the Bearcat, yes. That's what I was going to ask. That's one of the law enforcement officers in that armored vehicle that you're walking past, correct? Yes. And this, what we're watching in this video happens a few minutes after those same Bearcats had come to the 59th Street property and handed you some bottles of water, correct? Yes. And they say to you something to the effect of, we appreciate you guys. Do you remember that? I do. That's when you were on the 59th Street property and you were acting like you were guarding that property, correct? Yes. So how did it make you feel when the police are letting you pass the lines, they're warning you about people throwing rocks, they're handing out bottles of water, they're telling you that they appreciate you? How'd that make you feel? [01:26:34] Speaker 2: I didn't really care. I didn't really care. I was thankful for the water because I had OC stuff, gas in my eyes, but I didn't really notice or care. [01:26:46] Speaker 1: It didn't make you feel like they approved what you were doing? No. It didn't make you feel like you're emboldened now to go out there and act on their behalf? No. Let's play the video here, please. You yelled something friendly, friendly, friendly. I'm not sure how many times, but you yelled friendly out. Yes. This is, if I can use the pointer, you are crossing on the west side of Sheridan Road. You are crossing south across 60th Street here, heading across the police line, which had barricaded across 60th and Sheridan. Fair? Yes. You understood at this moment that you are now entering a crowd of whatever you want to call them, protesters, demonstrators. Your attorneys called them rioters or looters or whatever. That's who you're going to now be part of. You're going to be in that crowd, right? [01:28:09] Speaker 2: I was walking through. I had known to myself as friendly and that I was there to help them. [01:28:14] Speaker 1: Because you had to do that to warn these people that, hey, I'm on your side, right? I told them that I was friendly. Because if you didn't say that, you were worried they would see you as hostile, correct? [01:28:34] Speaker 2: Can you re-ask your question? Sure. [01:28:37] Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand. If you're going to go up to Dominic Black or Ryan Balch, you don't need to tell them you're friendly because they know that you're friends, right? We don't tell this to our friends. [01:28:50] Speaker 2: Yeah. [01:28:51] Speaker 1: We say friendly to people that aren't our friends, people that might be hostile to us, right? [01:28:58] Speaker 2: Yeah. I said it to them because they were throwing rocks at me. And when I told them I was friendly, they stopped throwing rocks at us. [01:29:05] Speaker 1: And to be accurate, they were throwing the bearcats, not at you. Yeah. One of them hit one of the armored vehicles and bounced off towards you and Mr. Balch, right? Yeah. It didn't do any damage to that armored vehicle, did it? Not that I'm aware of. I mean, can you imagine trying to harm an armored vehicle with a rock? That's pretty hard to do, right? Yeah. But they weren't, no one was throwing rocks at you, but you were kind of in a ricochet line of fire. Is that fair to say? [01:29:35] Speaker ?: Yeah. [01:29:36] Speaker 1: So you wanted to let these people know that, hey, I might look like I'm on the other side, but I'm really friendly. Fair? I wasn't on any side, but. I didn't say that. I said that you might appear to them. I mean, that was what you were worried about, right? When you said friendly? And I notice you looking over at your attorney a lot. Can you, I'm trying to ask you, when you are doing this. [01:30:02] Speaker 4: He's looking directly at Mr. Binger and I'm behind him. He accused Mr. Rittenhouse of looking at his attorney. Does he want him to look at the ceiling? [01:30:14] Speaker 1: I'll continue, Your Honor. [01:30:16] Speaker 4: What? [01:30:18] Speaker 1: You, at this very moment, announced yourself as friendly because you were worried that the people on the other side of that street would see you as hostile. Fair? [01:30:30] Speaker 2: I don't, I can't tell you how I think they would see me, but I just told them I was friendly. [01:30:36] Speaker 1: And I want to make sure you understand my question because I was asking you what you thought when you said this. You said you announced yourself as friendly because you thought to yourself at that very moment, I'm walking into a group that is hostile to me. Isn't that true? [01:30:55] Speaker 2: It looked hostile. They were throwing rocks at the squad car, not the squad cars, the armored police cars. [01:31:03] Speaker 1: And you felt it was necessary to tell them, friendly, friendly, friendly, so that they wouldn't do anything to you. Fair? Yes. Let's continue the video. There's a person that comes up to you carrying a skateboard. Do you see that? I do. And he's got some fire extinguishers slung over his shoulder? Yes. And he says something to you about something, something, putting out fires, and you respond, they know, they know. Did I understand what you said correctly there, they know? [01:31:59] Speaker 2: That's what I just heard, but I don't remember that interaction very well other than helping the guy after with the shoulder. [01:32:06] Speaker 1: And that's going to come up in a second here, but when you're talking to this individual about the fire extinguishers, do you remember anything about that conversation? [01:32:14] Speaker 2: It's hard to recall, but I think it was about fires, that they were putting out fires. [01:32:20] Speaker 1: Okay. And when you said, they know, they know, who's they? I don't recall. Do you have any idea what you were talking about? I don't. It seems to me, Mr. Rittenhouse, that this person is suggesting he's going to go put out some fires, and you're sort of assuring him that you don't need to, it's okay. Would that be a fair interpretation or no? No. [01:32:43] Speaker 2: But you don't remember what was going on? I don't remember the conversation, what it was about other than fires, and I don't recall it. [01:32:52] Speaker 1: This is one of the guys in the group that you later got your fire extinguisher from, right? No. Okay. We'll get to that in a second. Let's continue. Brian, can you continue? [01:33:07] Speaker ?: You good? [01:33:08] Speaker 6: It's all right. I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done. I'm not done. Oh, no, I'm just done. Oh, no, I'm just done. I'm not done. I'm not done. Oh, no, I'm not done. Oh, no, I'm not done. Oh, no, I'm just done. I can't even leave the mills. It just stunk. It just fucking stunk. [01:33:23] Speaker ?: Well, have a boy never hurt nobody? It was literally just like... It's a little spicy, that's all right. [01:33:27] Speaker 7: I think someone's got some medical weed, I'll tell you that. [01:33:46] Speaker 6: I love medical! [01:33:49] Speaker 1: You're walking around asking people if they need medical, and you talked earlier about treating a couple, I don't know, somebody at the 59th Streetcar source, right? Minor injuries. Minor injuries. When you were walking around outside that property, when you're out in the street announcing what you're announcing, did anybody respond and say, "Yeah, I need help from you"? Yes. When was that? [01:34:22] Speaker 2: I don't recall an exact time, but somebody cut their finger open, and I gave them some gauze and some bandage tape. [01:34:30] Speaker 1: Was that before or after this? Do you remember? Before. Where, physically, did that happen? I don't recall. And was this the situation where you announced, or yelled out that you could help, and then somebody said, "Yeah, I need some help"? Was that what went on in that situation? Yes. As you're walking along here, from this point until the end, until you shoot Rosenbaum and Huber and Grosskreutz, no one in this crowd ever says to you, "Yeah, I do need medical. Come over and help me." Correct? Yes. That's correct? Yes. [01:35:12] Speaker ?: Let's continue. [01:35:13] Speaker 1: This is the individual who accuses you of pointing your gun at them, right? Yes. And he says that you did so when he was on a vehicle, right? Yes. And in fact, he had been at the 59th Street car source location, climbing on, sitting on, jumping on one of the vehicles in that lot, hadn't he? [01:35:54] Speaker 2: Not that I'm aware of. I know I heard Joanne Fiedler testify to that, but I don't remember seeing him at that location. [01:36:04] Speaker 1: But he accuses you of that here? He does. And you tell him, basically, yeah, I did point the gun at you, right? [01:36:12] Speaker 2: I shrugged it off and said, yeah, I did, sarcastically, meaning I didn't, but I just didn't want a confrontation, so I was like, I did, and walked away. Why did you lie to him? I didn't lie to him. I was using sarcasm. [01:36:27] Speaker 1: The words you said, yeah, I did, those weren't true, were they? [01:36:33] Speaker 4: Your Honor, this is ridiculous. We're now fighting over sarcasm. This is a murder trial. [01:36:39] Speaker 3: He says sarcasm, he says it's a lie. It's hard to examine on it. Go ahead. [01:36:48] Speaker 1: When you told that individual, yeah, I did point a gun at you, that wasn't true, was it? I didn't point a gun at him. So why did you react to him that way in that particular moment? [01:37:00] Speaker 2: I thought that would be the best way to avoid conflict. I just said, yeah, I did, sarcastically. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. [01:37:11] Speaker 1: What conflict were you trying to avoid? [01:37:14] Speaker 2: Any conflict, if he would have got, like, he was accusing me of something I didn't do, so I thought the best thing would be, would be, would, the best thing to do would be to walk away instead of getting into some argument, so. [01:37:28] Speaker 1: But you didn't just walk away. You said to him, sarcastically, yeah, I did. [01:37:37] Speaker 2: I said sarcastically, I did, and walked away. [01:37:40] Speaker 1: Because you were worried about a conflict. What conflict were you worried about? A verbal argument. This individual is clearly expressing to you that he's unhappy because he thought you pointed your gun at him, correct? Yes. And you can understand why someone would be upset when you point an AR-15 at them, correct? Yes. You knew that even before this, right? Yes. In fact, back at the 59th Street car source, that crowd that you've described as not being, not having any friction, many of that crowd got upset because they thought people in your group were pointing their laser pointers at them. Do you remember that? I saw it in the videos, but I don't know what other people were doing. I'm not saying anybody actually was, I'm saying the crowd was upset and you knew that. You heard them complaining, correct? Watching the videos, yes. And even at that time, that night, you heard the crowd upset because they thought members of your group were pointing their laser pointers at them. Do you remember that from that night? [01:38:50] Speaker 2: Sort of, yes or no. I remember Ryan Balch saying something like telling the people to stop pointing lasers at people or something. I don't, I don't really remember that. [01:39:02] Speaker 1: Ryan Balch was telling the people in your group to stop doing that. [01:39:05] Speaker 2: The people on the roof. Who were part of your group, right? That were with the, that were there, yes. [01:39:12] Speaker 1: So, you know when we're talking about laser pointers, we're talking about the sight at the end of some guns that helps almost like, like this, right? If I, if somebody does this at me, you know, that could be someone pointing a gun, correct? [01:39:33] Speaker 2: It could be seen as that. [01:39:36] Speaker 1: And that's what the crowd was complaining about, right? Yeah. So, you knew from that crowd incident, and you certainly knew from this incident, that when people have guns pointed at them, it can really escalate the situation, correct? [01:39:52] Speaker 2: Yeah, I, yeah, I don't think anybody had lasers on their guns, I think. [01:39:57] Speaker 1: Yeah, but let's go back to your group at 59th Street, because you actually didn't know any of those people, other than Dominic and Nick Smith, right? Yes. You had just met Ryan Balch for the first time, three or four hours before this video, right? Yeah. You had just met Jason Lukowski for the first time, just, actually, only a few minutes before this, right? Because he didn't get in until 1045. Correct. So, at this point in the video, I don't know, this is probably about 1130 or so at night? I met him about 35 minutes prior to that. And probably had only spent, what, 10, 15 minutes at all in the same location as Jason Lukowski before you walked south? Yes. So, again, Jason Lukowski was someone you'd never met before that night. Correct. And you barely spent any time with him that night, correct? Correct. And, of course, the people up on the roof, other than Dominic Black and Nick Smith, you didn't know any of them before that night either, correct? [01:40:56] Speaker 2: I knew Dominic Black and Nick Smith, but the people on the... I misspoke their names. Yeah, sorry. Dominic Black and Nick Smith. I knew, those are the two people I knew on the roof. [01:41:04] Speaker 1: Other than that, you didn't know anyone else before this night. Fair? Correct. Now, when this little interaction that we've just watched happens, you're still walking with Ryan Balch, aren't you? [01:41:19] Speaker 2: I'm not. I thought I was at the time, but seeing hindsight view, I'm not. [01:41:26] Speaker 1: When you decided to cross 60th with Ryan Balch, you two talked about the fact that if you get separated, to go back to the 59th Street car source, right? I don't recall that conversation happening. But you tried to do that, didn't you? I did. Because you felt like, if I'm out here by myself, that's not good, I need to head back, right? Yes. And you also talked to Ryan Balch about the fact that when you get out into this crowd, keep your mouth shut. Don't antagonize them. Didn't Ryan talk to you about that? No, we didn't talk about that. So at this very moment, you're telling us you've lost track of Ryan Balch? [01:42:10] Speaker 2: A little bit ahead, but around that time, yes. Let's continue the video. [01:42:14] Speaker 6: Let's go! There it goes! What, yesterday or today? Pause. [01:42:24] Speaker 1: You have just walked off the screen, heading east across Sheridan Road to the Ultimate Gas Station, correct? Yes. And at that point in time, you don't know where Ryan Balch is, correct? When I stop and look around, yes. And instead of deciding to head back at this point, you go over to Ultimate Gas and you talk to some folks over there. [01:42:46] Speaker 2: Fair? I walk over to the Ultimate Gas Station. I walk around and I try to see if I can find Mr. Balch. And you couldn't do that? No. [01:42:56] Speaker 1: So then you decided to approach the police line and cross back, correct? Yes. Because you decided your best course of action at that point would be to return to the same group that you've been with, correct? Yes. Now, at that moment in time, the police had pushed everybody south of 60th, right? [01:43:20] Speaker 2: Sort of. I don't really know if there were... [01:43:24] Speaker 1: You say south to 60th? I said south of 60th. Oh, okay. Let's go back a little bit. We watched that interview with Richie McGinnis where he first comes up to you and talks to you, right? Mm-hmm. Do you remember that? Yes. And you're standing there at the 59th Street property, aren't you? I am. And he talks to you about what you're going to do and you say you're going to run out and help people, things like that, right? Yes. At that point, the police had already passed with all the Bearcats and MRAPs and armored vehicles, right? [01:43:55] Speaker 2: That's what it looks like, yes. [01:43:56] Speaker 1: And they had established a line on 60th and Sheridan, correct? Yes. And they pushed all of the protesters, demonstrators, rioters, whatever you want to call them, all of them south of 60th, correct? [01:44:09] Speaker 2: I don't know if I can honestly answer all of them. I don't know if... I believe there are some people still north down Sheridan and put across the street. [01:44:22] Speaker 1: So were there... I mean, we saw a crowd earlier of lots of protesters out in the street. That group, the numbers had dwindled quite a bit. Yes. Okay. So after the police moved everybody south of 60th, there's no more actual threat to the 59th Street car source, is there? I don't know. Well, at that moment in time, what imminent threats did you see to the 59th Street car source property? I don't know. Do you remember seeing any protesters out in the street, in front of the 59th Street car source, after the police pushed everybody south of 60th? [01:45:14] Speaker 2: Well, I believe there were some across the street, but not many. I can't recall completely. [01:45:19] Speaker 1: And that was just two or three people, right? [01:45:22] Speaker 2: I don't know how many people. [01:45:24] Speaker 1: None of those people came across the street to the 59th Street car source, did they? [01:45:28] Speaker 2: I don't know. If they did, I would have walked off by now. [01:45:32] Speaker 1: So you didn't see them come across the street? I did not. Fair to say that after the police pushed everybody south of 60th, you never saw any people threatening that property, correct? [01:45:45] Speaker 2: I didn't see anybody. [01:45:48] Speaker 1: And your goal that night, you took it upon yourself to protect the 59th Street property, correct? The owners asked. Sure. But you were going to station yourself at that property to try and protect it from damage. Fair? [01:46:04] Speaker 2: The car source locations, yes. [01:46:06] Speaker 1: And once the police had pushed everybody south of that, there was no more danger? [01:46:11] Speaker 2: At that car source location, yes. [01:46:13] Speaker 1: Okay. So, why not go home at that point? [01:46:24] Speaker 2: Because I still, the police were still pushing people back and then they were backing up. And I was still helping people provide medical first aid. [01:46:35] Speaker 1: Okay. So, the police had established the line at 60th with their bear cats at that point, right? Yes. And there was no indication that they were going to reverse and back up and move back north again that you saw, correct? [01:46:49] Speaker 2: No. They did it earlier in the night where they did the same thing. [01:46:53] Speaker 1: Right. But this is at 1130, 1140 at night. And they've established that, the police have established that line. And as far as you can tell, it's going to stay there, right? I don't know. And you talked about trying to provide medical help, but there's no one around that needs medical help at the 59th Street car source at that point, is there? [01:47:10] Speaker 2: Not that I noticed. [01:47:11] Speaker 1: So, you don't have any purpose there anymore, do you? [01:47:16] Speaker 2: Other than? [01:47:18] Speaker 1: So, why not go home? [01:47:20] Speaker 2: Because I was going to help people with, provide first aid and medical assistance. [01:47:26] Speaker 1: But that wasn't the reason you were there that night. You were there that night to protect the 59th Street car source. [01:47:33] Speaker 2: It was one of the reasons I was there. Part of my reasons of being there was to protect the car source properties and provide first aid and medical assistance. [01:47:44] Speaker 1: So, you went out in the crowd, like we see in this video, looking for anyone who needed your help. [01:47:53] Speaker 2: If somebody asked, if somebody said they need help, I would have helped them. So, why go with Ryan Bulge? Because you're safer and better in Paris when there's somebody else that's also with you. [01:48:10] Speaker 1: So, when you crossed 60th, you were worried about your safety? A little bit. Even though you think this is not a hostile crowd and you're there to help them, you were still worried about your safety. That's why you needed Bulge to back you up, right? [01:48:27] Speaker 2: I said I didn't think they were hostile towards me. I didn't say that they weren't a hostile crowd. [01:48:33] Speaker 1: So, let me rephrase my question to take that into account. You didn't think this was a crowd that was hostile to you personally, and you thought you were going to help them. But yet, you also felt you needed a backup, an armed former Army infantryman to protect you. Fair? Yes. And yet, when he's gone, and you can't find him, you don't immediately go back, right? [01:49:04] Speaker 2: I look for him for a second, and then I think, max, I look for him for like three minutes, and then I try to go back. [01:49:11] Speaker 1: And when you couldn't get back, straight across the police lines, did you decide to try and go around the police lines? For example, the ultimate gas station is here at 60th and Sheridan. Why didn't you walk down the street here and go over this way and around? I don't know. Why didn't you go west, over this way, and go around? [01:49:35] Speaker 2: I don't know. I guess I, it was very close in time that I was heading back, that I was turned down by the police before I got the phone call from Dominic Black. So I guess I didn't have time to really think, like, which ways I can go around. [01:49:53] Speaker 1: You knew the layout of downtown Kenosha, right? Because you said you drove that area the whole time, right? A little bit. So you go over to the ultimate gas station, and you spend some time talking with folks that are there who are similarly dressed as you. They've got similar clothing, similar weapon, things like that, right? [01:50:20] Speaker 2: Similar weapons. I was, I don't, I wouldn't say similarly dressed. [01:50:24] Speaker 1: But you went over there because you felt that those were people doing something similar to what you were doing that night. [01:50:31] Speaker 2: Fair? I thought that would be the safest spot for me to go. [01:50:34] Speaker 1: Why did you think you'd be safe with those people? [01:50:36] Speaker 2: Because I was alone, and they were, like I said, you're better in pairs, and I didn't want to be alone in that situation. [01:50:50] Speaker 1: You didn't want to be alone out here with this crowd that we see on the screen right now, right? I did not want to be alone with them. You wanted to be with the group at Ultimate Gas that had AR-15s like you, right? [01:51:03] Speaker 2: I wanted to be back at the car source where there weren't people around. [01:51:09] Speaker 1: Right, and we've talked about that, but initially you go to Ultimate Gas. To look for Ryan, yes. But you also talk to people who have AR-15s just like you, right? [01:51:18] Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I talked to them. I asked after the phone call. I asked a guy for a fire extinguisher to come with me. [01:51:34] Speaker 1: Let's play exhibit number 11 at the 54-minute-and-30-second mark. Mr. Rittenhouse, that's Ryan Balch standing there in the Ultimate Gas lot, correct? Yes. Let's play this video. [01:52:04] Speaker ?: As far as we're saying, we've done that. [01:52:18] Speaker 1: We just saw you run through this video, correct? Yes. I started this video at the 54-minute-and-30-second mark. It is now paused at the 54-minute-and-56-second mark. So for 26 seconds, Corey Elijah has Ryan Balch on screen, center of this video during that entire time, right? Yes. And you run right past where Corey Elijah is standing, right? Yes. And Ryan Balch is loitering there in the middle of the screen for at least 26 seconds, right? [01:53:01] Speaker 2: That's what it looks like on the screen. [01:53:03] Speaker 1: And your testimony is you were trying your best to find Ryan Balch at the Ultimate Gas Station at this point because you needed him to protect you? [01:53:13] Speaker 2: I was looking for Ryan Balch, but I didn't notice him as I was running away, not running away, running towards CarSource 3. [01:53:21] Speaker 1: But for 26 seconds before you start running, he's standing right there, isn't he? [01:53:25] Speaker 2: Yes. And when he's standing right there before I run with the fire extinguisher, I'm over here on the phone with Dominic Black. How long was your phone call with Dominic Black? About 30 seconds. [01:53:43] Speaker 1: So before that, you'd been looking for Ryan Balch? [01:53:47] Speaker 2: Before that, I tried to get back to the CarSource lot number one. [01:53:53] Speaker 1: And you'd also been looking for Ryan Balch? [01:53:56] Speaker 2: Looking, yes, seeing if I could see him in the crowd of people. [01:53:59] Speaker 1: Because you wanted a partner, a buddy to protect you? To protect each other, yes. And in fact, when you borrowed that fire extinguisher, you asked someone in that group to come along with you, right? Yes. Because you wanted someone there to protect you when you go down and put out what you think are some fires, right? Yes. Because you know that you're running into a crowd that is not friendly to you, right? No. That's why you had to say the word friendly, friendly, friendly, because you knew this was a crowd that would not see you as friendly, correct? [01:54:37] Speaker 2: I screamed friendly, friendly, friendly, because somebody screamed a burn inside. I'm talking about when you crossed 60th. You yelled at them. At that time, yes. [01:54:47] Speaker 1: And no one in the crowd is yelling burn inside or anything along those lines, are they? Not at that time. And you also wanted someone from that group to come along with you when you're going to go down and put out a fire because you knew full well that anyone running around like you putting fires out is going to cause a reaction in the crowd, a hostile reaction, correct? [01:55:13] Speaker 2: I didn't think it would cause a negative reaction. I wanted somebody to come with me because you're better in pairs. And I thought there were other people at that car source before I got there. [01:55:26] Speaker 1: Well, Dominic, if you're telling us that Dominic Black called you to run three blocks down the road to put out a fire at the 63rd Street car source, then you must have known at that moment that there wasn't anyone else down there, right? Why would you need to go if somebody's already down there? [01:55:47] Speaker 2: Mr. Black said to me on the phone, hey, they're setting fires at the other car source. I need you to get down there and put out the fires. It must not have, I don't think it, I took it as there's not other people down there. [01:56:02] Speaker 1: Why would you need to go three blocks down if there were already people there? [01:56:08] Speaker 4: He's asking a question. This witness doesn't know the answer, whether there are people there or not. [01:56:14] Speaker 1: He's told us he thought there were, so I'm probing the basis of that and his understanding at the time. [01:56:19] Speaker 3: You can answer if you don't understand the question. [01:56:22] Speaker 1: I'll repeat the question. Why would you need to run three blocks down to the 63rd car source if you thought there were already people there? [01:56:34] Speaker 2: I thought there were people there, but Dominic asked me to go down there. I thought that was to help put out the fires that were down there. [01:56:43] Speaker 1: This video that we're watching is minutes after you've left the 59th Street car source, right? Yes. And when you leave the 59th Street car source, you're with Ryan Balch. Yes. And then this reporter, Richie McGinnis. Yes. And as far as you know, when you leave 59th Street car source, everybody in your group is still back there, right? At the car source. At 59th Street car source. Yes. Everybody's still back there. Yes. Joanne Fiedler. Yes. Dustin Collette. Dominic Black. Nick Smith. Jason Lukowski. Anyone else? They're all still there, right? At that location, yes. So none of your group is already down at 63rd Street car source, right? [01:57:28] Speaker 2: The other group that showed up after we got done taking the pictures with the, I think I said two or three vans, I believe they were still down there. [01:57:37] Speaker 1: And that was two or three vans of people that came out with what have been described as melee weapons, right? Like bats and clubs and things like that. Do you recall that? First of all, do you recall that testimony? I do. Do you remember seeing those two or three vans come to that location? I do. Do you remember seeing people get out of those vans? [01:57:59] Speaker 2: Yes. I saw, I think there were six people in total. [01:58:04] Speaker 1: And you saw them with weapons? [01:58:06] Speaker 2: I saw them with, I saw them with rifles. I don't think I remember melee weapons. [01:58:12] Speaker 1: They were armed, correct? Yes. And you believed that they were going to be the ones protecting the 63rd Street car source, correct? Yes. So at this point in time in the evening, had anybody told you that those folks had left the 63rd Street car source? No. So when you're running with this fire extinguisher, you think there's already a group. That's designated still down there, right? Yes. So again, why do you feel that you needed to run three blocks down there with a fire extinguisher if you thought there were already people down there protecting that property? [01:58:52] Speaker 2: Because I, Dominic called me and asked me to go help put out the fires down there. [01:58:56] Speaker 1: And in that phone call, Dominic never told you that any of the members of the 59th Street group that you were part of, he never said any of them were down there at 63rd, right? Yes. And he never told you that the group that was supposed to be down there, he never told you anything about them, whether they were there or not there. He never mentioned them. Fair? It didn't come up. And you asked the people that you got the fire extinguisher from to come with you, right? Yes. You were looking for Ryan Balch for backup, right? I was looking around for him, yes. You had already tried to go back to the 59th Street location, right? [01:59:35] Speaker 2: Yes. [01:59:36] Speaker 1: And all of those failed? Yes. So then you decide to take it upon yourself to head down to 63rd Street to put out fires. Fair? [01:59:47] Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that. I would say I went to go put down, put out the fires that I was there to do. But when I say protect the property, I mean by like put out fires, so I went to go put out the fires. I just believe there are people there. [02:00:04] Speaker 1: And you brought your AR-15 along? [02:00:06] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:00:08] Speaker 1: Why? [02:00:10] Speaker 2: Because it was with me already. [02:00:13] Speaker 1: Yeah, but you've taken it off earlier when you were treating someone, you gave it to Joanne Fiedler, right? Yes. So you know how to take it off, don't you? [02:00:21] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:00:21] Speaker 1: And you can make a choice on your own whether or not to go armed with it or whether to give it to the person who is the lawful owner of it on that date, Dominic Black. Correct? [02:00:35] Speaker 2: I didn't take my rifle off there because there was nobody I could hand it to. And when I took it off to hand it to Joanne Fiedler, I was in a safe spot in the corner of the building where there were people protecting me at that time right there. When I went to go to the car search number three to put out the fires, there was nobody I could hand my rifle to that could protect me while I'm providing first aid to somebody. [02:01:00] Speaker 1: But you still knew you had it. [02:01:02] Speaker 2: My rifle, yes. [02:01:04] Speaker 1: You still knew you had it strapped around your body. Yes. And you made a conscious decision to bring it along, right? Yes. Why? He gave an answer about how he already had it. And we go through on that. Did you hear the question? I did, but I don't really understand what... Well, you... Was it simply that, well, I've already got it strapped on, so I might as well bring it along? Is that what you're telling us? You decided to bring along the AR-15 because, well, I've already got it? Is that your answer? [02:01:38] Speaker 2: I don't think I was thinking, like, hey, I'm going to take my rifle off. I wouldn't have because there were people around that could have stolen my gun, and I didn't... I didn't take my rifle off because I was going there alone. I was going to be running there alone, and I didn't... I didn't take it off because no one else was there to protect me as I was going there, so that's why I brought it. [02:02:15] Speaker 1: For protection? Yes. You brought it along down there because you felt like you would need to protect yourself against someone else harming you, correct? [02:02:26] Speaker 2: If that would have happened, I would have protected myself, but I didn't think I was going to be attacked and ambushed. [02:02:32] Speaker 1: But you just said you had it for protection. What were you expecting you would need protection from? [02:02:38] Speaker 3: I thought we had covered much of this before. [02:02:43] Speaker 1: I'm specifically focusing in on the time period where he is heading down to the 63rd Street car source. I have not asked him about this yet, Your Honor. [02:02:53] Speaker 3: Well, go ahead. But you need to pick up the pace somewhat. [02:03:01] Speaker 1: When you decided to bring your AR-15 loaded with 30 rounds down to the 63rd Street car source location, what did you think you needed protection against? [02:03:17] Speaker 2: I didn't really think I was going to have to protect myself. You told us just now you brought it along for protection. I did, but I didn't think I was going to need to protect myself. [02:03:27] Speaker 1: You brought it along for protection, but you didn't think you needed protection? I'm trying to clarify the two different answers that I think he just gave, Your Honor. [02:03:44] Speaker 3: Go ahead. Do you understand the question? [02:03:46] Speaker 1: Not really. I asked you why you brought the gun. You said you needed it for protection. I said, protection against what? You said you didn't think you needed protection. I'm confused. Can you help me understand why you're telling us you needed a gun for protection, but you didn't think you needed protection? [02:04:03] Speaker 2: I brought the gun for my protection, but what I was saying is I didn't think I would have to use the gun and end up defending myself. [02:04:12] Speaker 1: So you, in this video, are running. Yes. You run across the screen. Yes? Yes. And then I think you testified on direct that as you made it down the block, you, I don't remember exactly how you phrased it, but you stopped running and you walked for a little while. Is that right? [02:04:36] Speaker 2: I jogged and walked occasionally. [02:04:39] Speaker 1: Carrying the fire extinguisher and your gun? Yes. And you're alone at that point with no backup, right? Yes. And you testified that when you got down to the 63rd Street car source, you indicated that you came upon that vehicle we've been calling the Duramax. You know what vehicle I'm talking about? I do. And you indicated that when you got there, you walked around that vehicle and you saw a person that you now know to be Joshua Zeminski. Is that right? [02:05:13] Speaker 2: I walked up to the Duramax, yes. [02:05:17] Speaker 1: You didn't know Joshua Zeminski's name at that point, correct? No. You hadn't taken any notice of him at all up until that moment all night long, fair? Fair. This is the first time that you see that this is a person that comes to your attention, fair? Yes. And you said he had a gun in his hand. Yes. And you put the fire extinguisher down on the ground. [02:05:42] Speaker 2: I dropped the fire extinguisher. [02:05:44] Speaker 1: And then you hear or see Mr. Rosenbaum coming from behind you. [02:05:50] Speaker 2: When I get to the Duramax, I step forward and then Mr. Zeminski turns towards me and he steps towards me. I drop the fire extinguisher, step back, and that's when I see, I go to run back towards 59th Street. [02:06:11] Speaker 1: Mr. Rosenbaum is coming. [02:06:15] Speaker 2: And then that's when I notice Mr. Rosenbaum running at me. Leaving me with no other, right? Mr. Zeminski in front of me with the gun. Mrs. Zeminski right there, a couple feet away. And then some other people. There. [02:06:34] Speaker 1: And then the chase happens. Is that fair to say? [02:06:38] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:06:38] Speaker 1: Have you told us everything that you did when that situation just happened at the Duramax? Yes. Can we play the iPad, please? The iPad with the drone video? This is exhibit number 73. What are you guys going to do? Thank you. [02:07:31] Speaker 7: Thank you. [02:08:01] Speaker 1: Mr. Rittenhouse, this is a video that has been admitted into evidence as exhibit number 73. This is a video taken by a drone that was hovering south of 63rd at the time that you shot Mr. Rosenbaum. We're going to play the beginning of this video on the iPad and I'm going to have Detective Howard use the pinch and zoom feature on the iPad to zoom in on the area. [02:08:36] Speaker 4: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this and I'd like to be heard outside the presence of the jury. [02:08:41] Speaker 3: What do you think? Perfect time for a break, don't you think? Let's take a break. Please don't talk about the case during the break. Read. [02:08:48] Speaker 1: We're going to be in front centrally. We're going to watch exhibit number 82. This is a version of the drone footage that was introduced by our expert, James Armstrong, yesterday. And I'd like to be able to put this TV centrally so everybody can see it. So if you could let us know if you're able to see it when we move it, please. Are all the jurors able to see that okay? Full sense? Okay. Judge, may I use Sister Marciano's point of view? Hey, Judge. As we play this video... As we play this video, ladies and gentlemen, the jury, I... I'm going to direct your attention to this location, which is at the front end of the Duramax. There's an individual here on the sidewalk who is pushed in a wheelchair, and there's a little bit of a gap there between that individual and the Duramax. And I'd like you to keep your eyes on that location. Before we begin the video, Mr. Rittenhouse, are you able to see this video okay? Yes. All right. Please go ahead and play that. [02:10:38] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [02:10:39] Speaker 1: Thank you. Let's pause at a moment right at the beginning. Pause. Now, Mr. Rittenhouse, you told us earlier everything that you did when you first got to this location, correct? Yes. What you didn't tell us is that right here on the video, you have your gun raised. Don't you? [02:11:41] Speaker 2: I can't see it. [02:11:44] Speaker 1: You know what? This is a nice 4K TV. I'm going to turn it a little bit towards you. Move it a little bit back so the jury can see it. Are you able to see that screen okay? I don't think all the jurors can see it, no. I want to be able to play it for the defendant to be able to see it. [02:12:07] Speaker 3: I understand. If perhaps he could take the chair that the officer is in right now. Do you want to go over there as well? [02:12:16] Speaker 1: Would it be easier, Mr. Rittenhouse, if you came and stood a little closer to that screen? Is that the same definition? [02:12:23] Speaker 3: You know, and you're using the pointer, so we want to all be looking at the same TV. Okay. Okay. Would it be appropriate for Mr. Rittenhouse to come stand closer to the TV? As long as he doesn't block the jurors, he and Mr. Richards are going to go over here. All right. [02:12:40] Speaker 1: I'll move this back. [02:12:44] Speaker 3: Stand right down there, if you would, please. [02:12:48] Speaker 1: Let's go back to the beginning of the video, please. I'm going to probably want to pause. Don't watch Alan. We can't see it. It's off. All right. Let's start the video. Pause. Mr. Rittenhouse. You just came in the screen, put the fire extinguisher down, and now you've got your weapon raised, don't you? Let's play it one more time. [02:13:33] Speaker ?: Let's play it one more time. Your Honor, he's answered your question. He says he can't see, so I'm trying to help him see. Go ahead. Go ahead. All right. Let's play it one more time. Your Honor, he's answered your question. He says he can't see, so I'm trying to help him see. Go ahead. Pause. [02:13:43] Speaker 1: Mr. Rittenhouse, can you see in that video that you've raised your weapon and pointed it at someone? Let's play it one more time. Your Honor, he's answered the question. He says he can't see, so I'm trying to help him see. Go ahead. Pause. Pause video. [02:14:16] Speaker 2: It doesn't look like I raised my rifle. It looks like my shoulder's up, but my rifle's pointed downward. Thank you. [02:14:29] Speaker 6: All right. [02:14:35] Speaker 1: So your testimony today under oath is that you have no memory of raising and pointing your rifle when you first got to that location. Is that right? Yes. You see yourself put the fire extinguisher down. I see myself drop it, yes. Let's play Exhibit 84 now, please. Go ahead and play. [02:15:23] Speaker ?: Pause. [02:15:24] Speaker 1: In this video at this point, Mr. Rittenhouse, you have turned around and you are pointing your weapon at Mr. Rosenbaum, correct? Yes. And there's a point. Let's continue the video, please. All right. Let's pause. Go back and start at the beginning again, please. [02:16:03] Speaker ?: Pause. Can you go back about half a second, please? Go back just a little bit more, please. Go back just a little bit more, please. Go back just a little bit more, please. Go back just a little bit more. Okay. Okay. Go back. Go back just a little bit more, please. [02:16:13] Speaker 1: Why don't you go back to the beginning and hit play and I'll try and pause you a little bit better. Okay. Go back. [02:16:18] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's go back to the beginning and hit play and I'll try and pause you a little bit better. Pause. Pause. [02:16:27] Speaker 1: There's a point where Mr. Rosenbaum is running after you where he's going to be a little bit [02:16:32] Speaker ?: up in the air, correct? I wouldn't say he leaped up in the air, correct? I wouldn't say he leaped up in the air. Okay. Okay. [02:16:37] Speaker 1: Okay. Let's go back to the beginning and hit play and I'll try and pause you a little bit better. Pause. Pause. There's a point where Mr. Rosenbaum is running after you where he raises his hands and leaps up in the air, correct? [02:16:59] Speaker 2: I wouldn't say he leaped in the air. I'd say he continued to run at me. He just threw his hands up. [02:17:08] Speaker 1: He threw both of his hands up in the air, right? Yes. And you could see that he was unarmed, correct? Yes. Please continue the video. [02:17:29] Speaker ?: Pause. [02:17:30] Speaker 1: Joseph Rosenbaum never touched you in any way during that incident, correct? He touched my gun. He didn't touch your body in any way, did he? No. No. He didn't kick you? No. He didn't punch you? No. Other than that plastic bag, he didn't throw anything at you? No. He didn't have a gun on him? No. He didn't have a knife on him? No. He didn't have a chain on him? No. He didn't have a bat on him? No. He didn't have any weapon of any kind, correct? [02:18:08] Speaker 2: Other than him grabbing my gun, no. [02:18:12] Speaker 1: Well, he didn't have possession of that gun, you did, correct? [02:18:17] Speaker 2: I was holding it, yes. [02:18:20] Speaker 1: And it was strapped to your body, correct? [02:18:22] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:18:23] Speaker 1: At all times, during this incident, you retained possession of your AR-15, correct? Yes. Can we please play exhibit, I apologize Brian, I don't know if I mentioned this one earlier, I think it's 83, it's the full speed version of what we just saw? That was 84 just now, right? Okay, let's play 83, please. Mr. Rittenhouse, while you're watching this video, I'd like you to tell me if you see Mr. Rosenbaum jump up in the air with his hands up, okay? [02:19:01] Speaker 2: Okay. [02:19:02] Speaker 1: Go ahead and play. Alright, pause. Can we go back to the beginning, please? And play again. Pause. Right before Mr. Rosenbaum disappears behind that car, did you see him jump up in the air with his hands out? No, I saw him do something like this, like... That was a reaction to you pointing the gun at him, correct? [02:19:52] Speaker 2: Yes, but he kept running at me, so it didn't deter him. [02:19:59] Speaker 1: But it slowed him down a little bit. He does this sort of jump with his hands in the air when you're pointing the gun at him, right? No, he continues to gain speed on me. Okay. Now let's play exhibit 86, please. Go ahead. [02:20:36] Speaker ?: Go ahead. [02:20:37] Speaker 1: Alright, pause it. Did you slow down? [02:20:56] Speaker 2: Did I? [02:20:57] Speaker 1: Yeah. [02:20:58] Speaker 2: I turned around, and I may have slowed down a little bit. [02:21:02] Speaker 1: It looks like you slowed down before you even turned around. Yes. You've characterized Mr. Rosenbaum as advancing on you, speeding up towards you, but you actually slowed down, didn't you? Because of the people around the cars, yes. But after the shooting, you run around those cars and head back towards the direction you originally wanted to go to, right? Yes. So those people didn't stop that, did they? [02:21:32] Speaker 2: They weren't there after I shot Mr. Rosenbaum. [02:21:36] Speaker 1: They scattered after you fired your gun four times, didn't they? [02:21:40] Speaker 2: Yes, they weren't there anymore. They weren't there anymore. [02:21:43] Speaker 1: And you've heard Dr. Kelly's testimony that the first gunshot from you to Mr. Rosenbaum caused Mr. Rosenbaum to start falling to the ground. Did you hear that testimony? I did. And then you continued to fire three more shots into him after that, didn't you? [02:22:05] Speaker 2: I continued to fire until he was no longer a threat to me. [02:22:09] Speaker 1: When he's falling to the ground in front of you, he's no longer a threat to you. His pelvis is broken, right? I don't know. But he's fallen to the ground, isn't he? [02:22:18] Speaker 2: I saw him lunging towards my gun and I remember his hand on the barrel of my gun. [02:22:23] Speaker 1: Because he was trying to push it out of the way so you wouldn't shoot him. [02:22:27] Speaker 2: I don't know. [02:22:28] Speaker 1: What was the risk to you of death or great bodily harm at the moment you killed Joseph Rosenbaum? [02:22:45] Speaker 2: If I would have let Mr. Rosenbaum take my firearm from me, he would have used it and killed me with it and probably killed more people if I would have let him get my gun. [02:22:56] Speaker 1: Mr. Rosenbaum never said anything to you about taking your gun, did he? [02:23:02] Speaker 2: He didn't say anything, but he tried to take my gun. [02:23:06] Speaker 1: And whoever's got that gun is a threat to everyone else? [02:23:09] Speaker 2: If he would have taken my gun, he would have used it against me. [02:23:14] Speaker 1: Let's break that down. First of all, you had already prevented him from taking your gun by running away and doing that little dip and dodge that Mr. McGinnis talked about, right? [02:23:27] Speaker 2: He was still coming after my gun. [02:23:29] Speaker 1: But you could have kept running. You could have turned back around like you did, couldn't you? No, I couldn't have. You have the gun strapped to your body at this moment, correct? Yes. The strap is designed to keep that on your body so it doesn't come off, correct? [02:23:45] Speaker 2: To help retain it, yes. [02:23:47] Speaker 1: And you have both hands on the gun, correct? Yes. And Mr. Rosenbaum has never said anything at all about wanting your gun. You never heard him say anything about that, correct? I haven't. You never said anything, he never said anything to you about using that gun at all, correct? [02:24:07] Speaker 2: I don't know what Mr. Rosenbaum was thinking when he tried to grab my gun. [02:24:13] Speaker 1: You just assumed that he was going to use it, that he was going to try and take it from you, first of all. And then you assumed he was going to try and use it on you. [02:24:23] Speaker 2: If I would have let Mr. Rosenbaum get my gun, he would have killed me. [02:24:28] Speaker 1: But you had already pointed your gun at him. [02:24:31] Speaker 2: Yes, because he was chasing me. [02:24:33] Speaker 1: Did you want him to think that you were going to shoot him? [02:24:37] Speaker 2: No, I never wanted to shoot Mr. Rosenbaum. [02:24:40] Speaker 1: Why'd you point it at him if you didn't have any intention of shooting? [02:24:43] Speaker 2: He was chasing me, I was alone, he threatened to kill me earlier in that night. I didn't want to have to shoot him. [02:24:54] Speaker 1: But you understand how dangerous it is to point a gun at someone, don't you? [02:24:59] Speaker 2: I pointed at him because he kept running at me and I didn't want him to chase me. [02:25:04] Speaker 1: But you understand how dangerous that is, don't you? [02:25:09] Speaker 2: I pointed at him because he was chasing me. [02:25:12] Speaker 1: I'll ask the question a third time Mr. Rittenhouse. You understand. [02:25:16] Speaker 3: Don't comment, just ask your question. [02:25:23] Speaker 1: You understand how dangerous it is to point a gun at someone, correct? Yes. You understand that that puts someone else in fear that they're about to be killed, right? He was chasing me. You understand that when you point your AR-15 at someone else, that may make them feel like they are about to be killed by you. Correct? [02:25:53] Speaker 2: Mr. Rosenbaum was chasing me. He said he was going to kill me if he got me alone. I was alone. I was running from him. I pointed at him and it didn't stop him from continuing to chase me. [02:26:06] Speaker 1: Did you hear my question? Yes. Yet you chose not to answer. Objection, Your Honor. [02:26:11] Speaker 4: He answered. He just didn't like the answer. [02:26:13] Speaker 1: My question is, you understand that when you point your AR-15 at someone, it may make them feel like you're going to kill them. Correct? [02:26:27] Speaker 7: False for speculation. [02:26:28] Speaker 3: He asked if it would affect someone that way so as to perhaps deter the person. Do you understand my question? [02:26:37] Speaker 1: I do. [02:26:38] Speaker 2: Can you please answer? I did. I said, Mr. Rosenbaum was chasing me. I pointed my gun at him and that did not deter him. He could have ran away instead of trying to take my gun from me. But he kept chasing me. It didn't stop him. [02:26:55] Speaker 1: Mr. Rittenhouse, you're telling us that you felt like you were about to die, right? Yes. But when you point the gun at someone else, that's going to make them feel like they're about to die, right? That's what you wanted him to feel. No. You wanted him to get the message from you that if you come any closer, I'm going to kill you. That's why you pointed the gun at him, right? [02:27:22] Speaker 2: I pointed the gun at him to deter him from -- I pointed the gun at him so he would stop chasing me. That's why I pointed the gun at him. [02:27:29] Speaker 1: Because if you point the gun at him, you were hoping he would stop chasing you because he would get the message from you that if he keeps coming, you're going to kill him, right? I didn't want to have to kill Mr. Rosenbaum. That's not the question I asked. The intent -- [02:27:49] Speaker 4: It's serving no legitimate purpose. [02:27:51] Speaker 3: It seems argumentative, Mr. -- I can't hear Mr. Richards' objection. He said it serves no useful purpose. It's badgering. It does seem argumentative. [02:28:01] Speaker 1: You intended -- in that sequence we just saw, you intended to point your gun back at Mr. Rosenbaum in the middle of the parking lot, right? I pointed at him so he would stop chasing me, but he didn't stop. That was your intentional decision to point at him. [02:28:31] Speaker 3: That wasn't an accident. The jury cannot see you. I thought we moved it. I'm sorry. [02:28:36] Speaker 1: No. [02:28:37] Speaker 3: So please get it out of there. [02:28:38] Speaker 6: The point I'm trying to get at Mr. Rittenhouse is that wasn't like an accidental turning around and it just happens to be pointing in his direction, much like I'm just happen to, you know, wave this around. [02:28:53] Speaker 1: You made an intentional decision in the middle of that incident to turn and point the gun at Mr. Rosenbaum, correct? Yes. And you can understand why that would make someone fearful for their life, right? But he continued to chase me after, so no, I can't. [02:29:18] Speaker 2: It didn't work. It didn't stop Mr. Rosenbaum from chasing me. [02:29:26] Speaker 1: And even after you shoot him one time and he starts falling, you continued to shoot three more times, right? [02:29:34] Speaker 2: I continued to shoot until he was no longer a threat to me. [02:29:38] Speaker 1: And then after that, you run around and he's lying there, face down on the ground, correct? Yes. And you're a medic, correct? I have first aid training, yes. Well, you proclaimed yourself that night to be a medic, an EMT. You told everyone that, right? Yes. And you had your medic bag with you, correct? Yes. And this location is right across the street from a hospital, isn't it? Yes. Yes. But your first thought was run away. My first thought was to help him. You didn't do anything to help him. You didn't do a single thing, did you? [02:30:19] Speaker 2: The crowd started to scream, get him, get him, get him, get him. And I didn't want to stay there with the crowd building and the mob advancing on me. [02:30:31] Speaker 1: Were you surprised that a crowd would react that way when they just saw you shoot someone? I don't know. I don't know. When you stood over Mr. Rosenbaum's body, did you know? Yes, he didn't. [02:30:43] Speaker 3: I, I, I, I'm, I'm. [02:30:50] Speaker 1: Go ahead. When you stood over Mr. Rosenbaum's body, did you know whether he was dead or alive? I didn't. Did you know whether or not it was possible at that moment to try and save him? [02:31:05] Speaker 2: I wanted to help Mr. Rosenbaum. And if the crowd wouldn't have started screaming to get him, get him, get him, I would have stayed and did everything I could to help Mr. Rosenbaum. But the crowd just started to chase me and scream at me. Let's play. [02:31:24] Speaker 1: Can we have exhibit 14, please? At the three hour, 58 minute and 45 second mark. [02:31:52] Speaker ?: I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. I'm going to have a look at the crowd. [02:32:08] Speaker 1: I'm going to have a look at the crowd. Okay. [02:32:25] Speaker 7: Play from here, please. Plus, after you fired your four shots at Mr. Rosenbaum, [02:33:03] Speaker 1: there were three more gunshots right after that, right? Yes. And those were coming from very close to where you were, weren't they? [02:33:13] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:33:14] Speaker 1: They were coming from right here on the south side of the 63rd Street car source, right alongside 63rd Street on the north side of 63rd, right? Yes. You didn't react at all to those gunshots, did you? [02:33:29] Speaker 2: At that time, my audio was still going in and out partially. [02:33:36] Speaker 1: But again, my question is, you didn't react at all to those, did you? [02:33:41] Speaker 2: No. [02:33:42] Speaker ?: No. [02:33:42] Speaker 2: No. [02:33:43] Speaker 1: No. No. [02:33:45] Speaker ?: No. [02:33:46] Speaker 7: - Shut up, man. Shut up. Shut up, man. He laid him out. He laid him out. He laid him out. [02:34:16] Speaker 1: - Shut up, man. - Pause. No one in that crowd yells "get him" or anything threatening towards you until after you start running away, right? - No. - You had time in that moment to make a phone call, didn't you? [02:34:36] Speaker 2: - I called Dominic Black, yes. - You could have called 911, right? [02:34:41] Speaker 1: - Yes. - But you chose to call your best friend, right? - I called the first number on my phone. - Is that quicker than three digits, 911? - I just, I don't know. - And then you started running? - Yes. - And the first person you encounter as you're running is Jason Lukowski, correct? - Yes. - This is a person that you had barely known for 15 minutes that night, right? - Yes. - And you told him you didn't shoot anyone, correct? - No. - You heard his testimony about that, right? - Yes. - Can we please play exhibit number 12? While we're getting that ready, you talked earlier about this crowd and what they were saying and you felt like they were coming after you. You had time to stop and have a brief little talk with Jason Lukowski, didn't you? [02:35:54] Speaker 2: - I stopped for a second and asked him to help me get to the police. [02:35:59] Speaker 1: - Even with this crowd on top of you as you describe it, you still had time for that, didn't you? [02:36:03] Speaker 2: - For a second. I stopped for a second. [02:36:07] Speaker 1: - Let's play exhibit number 12, please. [02:36:10] Speaker ?: Let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play exhibit number 12, please. - Okay, let's play with the event. [02:36:31] Speaker 4: - So there's like six shots. [02:36:55] Speaker 1: - Back up 10 seconds, please. Go ahead. [02:37:01] Speaker ?: - What are you doing? - Why are you doing it? - Hey! [02:37:04] Speaker 6: - Stop! - Why are you doing it? - We both are gone! - Why are you doing it? - Pause. [02:37:09] Speaker 1: - There are people in the crowd that are asking you why you just shot someone, right? - Yes. - And you told them he had a gun. [02:37:20] Speaker 2: - At the time, I was a little dazed and I was thinking of Mr. Zeminski with the pistol he had at the Duramax. [02:37:28] Speaker 1: - So you shot Mr. Rosenbaum because Joshua Zeminski had a pistol? - No. - You don't get to shoot someone else. You don't get to shoot someone else because someone else has a gun, right? - No. - No. - But you told the crowd he had a gun, didn't you? - That's what I said. - And that wasn't true. Mr. Rosenbaum never had a gun, right? [02:37:50] Speaker 2: - He didn't have a gun. [02:37:51] Speaker 1: - Now can we please play exhibit number three at the one hour, 17 minute, and 10 second mark. [02:38:00] Speaker ?: - Hey, what are you doing? - You shot somebody? - Push up. - Push up. - Push. [02:38:05] Speaker 1: Pause. You told Mr. Grosskreutz you were going to the police, right? [02:38:35] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:38:36] Speaker 1: And then you said, "I didn't shoot anyone," right? [02:38:40] Speaker 2: I don't... I can't really make out what the last part of the words were saying. [02:38:45] Speaker 1: Do you remember what you said? [02:38:47] Speaker 2: I remember saying... I think I said I had to. [02:38:52] Speaker 1: Let's play that back 10 seconds and play it again, please. [02:39:05] Speaker 6: Who shot? Who shot? Pause. Pause. [02:39:12] Speaker 1: Aren't your exact words, "I'm going to the police, I did not shoot anyone"? [02:39:18] Speaker 2: That's what I remember from that night, but watching that, it sounds like I said I didn't. [02:39:27] Speaker 1: That, again, was not true. You just had shot someone, correct? I did. Why didn't you tell the truth? [02:39:37] Speaker 2: I was being chased by a mob and I don't really remember that interaction very well. [02:39:45] Speaker 1: Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. [02:39:48] Speaker ?: Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. I'm going to play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. Let's play Exhibit 5, please. [02:40:03] Speaker 1: This is the BG on the Scene video. Go ahead. Pause. Now, we've heard a lot of testimony about this person who comes up behind you with something and hits you in the head. We've heard about Anthony Huber's first approach to you with his skateboard, correct? [02:40:46] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:40:47] Speaker 1: You testified that after a few more feet, you felt lightheaded and you stumbled. That's what you told when your attorney was asking you questions, correct? Yes. No one knocked you to the ground. You lost your own balance, correct? I was hit to the point to where I stumbled. I stumbled. You said in response to your attorney's questions that you stumbled because you were lightheaded. Do you remember telling us that? From getting hit, yes. You were lightheaded because you had been running and you were being chased. That was why you were lightheaded, right? [02:41:21] Speaker ?: That and being hit, yes. Let's continue. Pause. [02:41:22] Speaker 1: There is an individual who comes at you and jumps towards you and attempts to kick you, correct? He does kick me, yes. And you fire two shots directly at him with your AR-15, correct? Yes. You intended to hit him with those bullets, correct? I intended for him, yes. At that close range, it's a miracle that you missed, right? I don't know. You intended to kill him with those shots, didn't you? No. Did you even care whether or not those two rounds were going to kill him? [02:42:17] Speaker 2: I didn't want to have to kill anybody that night. [02:42:21] Speaker 1: In this moment, you're making a deliberate decision to pull the trigger twice, correct? Yes. That wasn't an accident. That was your conscious decision, wasn't it? Yes. And you're firing an AR-15 at close range to this individual, correct? Yes. And you knew full well that if you hit him with one or both of those bullets, it could kill him, right? [02:42:46] Speaker 2: There's that possibility. [02:42:48] Speaker 1: If you hit him with one of those, wouldn't you agree it's a pretty strong likelihood you're going to kill him? I don't know. Did that even factor into your mind at that point? Did you even care whether you were going to kill him or not? [02:43:01] Speaker 2: I didn't want to have to kill anybody. I was being attacked. That's why I shot him. But shot at him. [02:43:08] Speaker 1: You shot at him with the intent of hitting him and killing him, correct? [02:43:13] Speaker 2: I didn't want to kill anybody. [02:43:15] Speaker 1: Then why are you shooting at someone with an AR-15 at close range if you don't want to kill him? [02:43:21] Speaker 2: Because he's attacking me and he's stomping my face and jumping and kicking my face. [02:43:30] Speaker 1: You didn't see any weapons on that person, did you? No. You didn't see a gun? No. You didn't see a knife? No. You didn't see a bat or a club? No. You didn't see a chain? No. What he uses is one foot, correct? Yes. Let's continue the video. [02:43:49] Speaker ?: Pause. [02:43:50] Speaker 1: You've just shot a round into Anthony Huber's chest, right? Yes. Now, up until this moment, and probably for the rest of that evening, you didn't know the name Anthony Huber, did you? I did not. Up until this moment and this evening, you had never had any interaction with him, took any notice of him, fair to say? [02:44:15] Speaker ?: Yes. [02:44:16] Speaker 1: Okay. And when you shoot him, he's got his skateboard in his hand? Yes. You didn't see any gun in his hand, correct? No. You didn't see a knife? No. You didn't see a bat? No. You didn't see a club? No. All he's got is the skateboard, right? [02:44:33] Speaker 2: That he's hit me in the head with twice, yes. [02:44:36] Speaker 1: Okay. And you intended to pull the trigger at that moment with your AR-15, correct? Yes. That wasn't an accident. No. That was your deliberate decision, correct? [02:44:47] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:44:48] Speaker 1: And you knew that the way that gun was positioned, you were gonna fire that bullet right into his right? [02:44:55] Speaker ?: Right? [02:44:56] Speaker 2: He was attacking me, so I pulled the trigger. [02:44:59] Speaker 1: And you knew that when you pulled that trigger, that bullet was gonna go right into his chest, didn't you? [02:45:05] Speaker 2: I can't say, I don't know where the bullet would have went exactly. [02:45:09] Speaker 1: The end of that gun was pointed directly at his chest when you pulled the trigger, correct? [02:45:15] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:45:16] Speaker 1: And you knew that, correct? Yes. You pulled the trigger, didn't you? Yes. Because you intended to kill Anthony Huber at that moment, didn't you? No. What did you think was gonna happen then? You got a gun that's aimed directly at his chest, you pulled the trigger. What did you think was gonna happen? [02:45:38] Speaker 2: If I didn't pull the trigger, I thought Mr. Huber was gonna kill me. [02:45:43] Speaker 1: Maybe I misphrased my question, let me try again. When you pull the trigger of the AR-15 and it is directly against Anthony Huber's chest, what did you think was gonna happen to Anthony Huber? [02:45:55] Speaker 2: That he would no longer be a threat to my safety. [02:45:58] Speaker 1: Because he'd be dead, right? [02:46:00] Speaker 2: Because he wouldn't be a threat to me, I don't know if he'd be dead or not. [02:46:05] Speaker 1: Did you even care at that moment whether or not Anthony Huber lived and died? Yes. Your only concern in that moment was your own safety, correct? [02:46:15] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:46:16] Speaker 1: The next shooting is of Gage Grosskreutz. We have stopped the video at a moment here when he is crouched in front of you with his hands in the air, correct? Yes. Your gun is pointed at him, isn't it? It's pointed downward towards his feet. It's pointed at his body, some part of his body, correct? [02:46:42] Speaker ?: Yes. [02:46:43] Speaker 1: And he's no threat to you at this moment. Is he? [02:46:46] Speaker 4: Your Honor, he's standing in front of him with a gun. [02:46:48] Speaker 1: That's an argument you can make. I'm asking a question of the witness. [02:46:52] Speaker ?: Yes. [02:46:53] Speaker 1: He's no threat to you at this moment, is he? He is a threat. [02:46:57] Speaker 2: He has a gun in his hand. [02:46:59] Speaker 1: You saw that gun? [02:47:00] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:47:01] Speaker 1: So at the moment, throughout all of these moments of your interaction with Mr. Grosskreutz, you were aware of the fact that he had that gun in his hand, correct? Not until that moment. I'm talking about from this moment on, correct? Yes. And of course, that's a handgun, right? Yes. And you have an AR-15, correct? Yes. And at this particular moment, he's not pointing his gun at you, is he? Not at that moment. But you've got your gun pointed at him, correct? [02:47:38] Speaker 2: Looking at the video, I think I'm lowering my weapon. I think it's just a still shot of where you have it to where that, but I believe in the whole video, I'm lowering it, and then he points his gun at me. [02:47:52] Speaker 1: Can you help me understand, Mr. Rittenhouse, why Gage Grosskreutz, with a pistol in his hand, is a threat to kill you, but you, with an AR-15 pointed at him, is not a threat to kill him at this moment? Can you help me understand that? [02:48:11] Speaker 2: I've been attacked by several people, and he decided to come and point a gun at my head, well, first... He hasn't done that yet, has he? [02:48:23] Speaker 1: No. No. So again, I ask you, in this moment, you told us Gage Grosskreutz is a threat to you right now? Yes. He's got a pistol not aimed at you. You've got an AR-15 aimed at him. Why is he more of a threat to you than you are to him? [02:48:42] Speaker 2: Because he was moving at me with a gun in his hand. [02:48:46] Speaker 1: This is right after you've killed Anthony Huber, correct? Yes. Right after you've fired two shots at almost point-blank range at the man running towards the camera right now and missing him, correct? Yes. And you're telling us Gage Grosskreutz is the real threat at this moment? [02:49:08] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:49:09] Speaker 1: Can we please pull up exhibit number 80, beginning at frame 468? This is an exhibit which consists of, what's the number, 732? 729 frames from the BG on the go video that we just watched. This was prepared by James Armstrong of the State Crime Lab. I'm not going to show all 729, but I'd like to start at frame 468 and we're going to go frame by frame from there until frame 500. Mr. Stoop, could you please slowly advance frame by frame until I tell you to stop? Mr. Rittenhouse. This is immediately after Gage Grosskreutz has stopped in front of you and you are doing something with your firearm at that moment. Do you recall that? [02:50:57] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:50:58] Speaker 1: You were asked some questions about what you were doing at that moment. Is it fair to say that you turn your firearm over and you're looking at it? You're examining it? Yes. [02:51:08] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:51:09] Speaker 1: But your testimony is you didn't do anything to actually manipulate it at that moment. Correct. Is that fair to say? Correct. Okay. [02:51:17] Speaker ?: Please continue. [02:51:18] Speaker 1: Frame 500 shows you firing your AR-15. At this particular moment, he does not have that pistol pointed towards you, does he? He does. His left leg has stepped across, not directly towards you, but to the side of you, correct? [02:52:13] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:52:13] Speaker 1: He's reaching in with his left arm towards you, correct? Yes. He never steps back and puts the gun in both hands in a ready-aim position towards you, does he? [02:52:30] Speaker 2: He doesn't do that. [02:52:31] Speaker 1: He never takes that gun with his right hand and stands there and holds it out with his right hand in front of him and aims it directly at you, does he? [02:52:39] Speaker 2: No, he does this, pointing it directly at my head. [02:52:42] Speaker 1: And you thought that's the way he was going to shoot you? Yeah. You thought he ran up close to you to shoot you? Yes. You understand that he could have taken that gun if he wanted to and shot you from 10, 15, 20 feet away, right? [02:53:05] Speaker 2: Can you refer, sorry, I'm trying to understand the question. [02:53:08] Speaker 1: You understand that a pistol like that doesn't need to be right up close to someone to shoot, right? Yes. It can shoot from 10, 15, 20 feet away, right? Yes. Mr. Grosskreutz could have stopped 10, 15, 20 feet away if he wanted to shoot you and fired his pistol at you, couldn't you have? He could have, but he didn't. And your testimony is that you believed he ran up close to you and reached in with his left hand, with his gun in his right hand, because that was his way of using this gun to shoot you? Yes. Did you think he was reaching in to grab your gun? No. You didn't think he was going to take your gun away, did you? I thought he was going to shoot me. With his pistol? Yes. Which he never actually does, correct? Correct. He never fires that gun at you at all? No. In fact, in this entire sequence of events, no one ever fired a gun at you, did they? [02:54:06] Speaker 2: Mr. Zeminski fired a gun from behind me. [02:54:10] Speaker 1: Did Mr. Zeminski fire that gun at you? [02:54:13] Speaker 2: I believe so. [02:54:15] Speaker 1: What do you base that on? Did you see it? [02:54:17] Speaker 2: The video. [02:54:18] Speaker 1: Did you see it? No. You're talking about back when the incident with Mr. Rosenbaum happens, correct? Yes. That happened while you and Mr. Rosenbaum are running across the car source lot, correct? [02:54:31] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:54:31] Speaker 1: At that moment in time, you didn't see Joshua Zeminski fire a shot, did you? No. You heard a gunshot, right? [02:54:38] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:54:38] Speaker 1: But you had no idea who fired it. [02:54:41] Speaker 2: I believed it was Mr. Zeminski. [02:54:44] Speaker 1: So that gunshot did not at all factor into your decision to kill Joseph Rosenbaum, did it? [02:54:51] Speaker 2: No. Mr. Rosenbaum trying to steal my gun dead. [02:54:55] Speaker 1: So you didn't think that was a gunshot from Joseph Rosenbaum? No. You knew he didn't have a gun? [02:54:59] Speaker 3: Oh, I see what your question means now. Okay. You didn't think that the shot which had been fired supposedly by Mr. Zeminski had been fired by Mr. Rosenbaum? [02:55:15] Speaker 1: Exactly. [02:55:15] Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. [02:55:16] Speaker 1: So you heard a gunshot, you now know that was Joshua Zeminski based on watching the videos, right? Yes. But at the time, you didn't think that was Joseph Rosenbaum firing that shot, did you? No. You knew Joseph Rosenbaum didn't have a gun, right? [02:55:33] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:55:33] Speaker 1: And you certainly would agree with me that you don't have the right to kill Joseph Rosenbaum for something Joshua Zeminski does, correct? Yes. When you heard that gunshot, you didn't know whether it was fired at you or up in the air or at Rosenbaum or anyone else, did you? I heard it from behind me, but I didn't. You didn't know where it was aimed. Correct. Correct? You didn't feel it hit you, correct? Correct. You didn't hear it ricochet anywhere near you, correct? Correct. You received no indication that that gunshot was going to put your life in danger, correct? I don't know. There were gunshots going off all night long, weren't there? [02:56:23] Speaker 2: Sort of. [02:56:24] Speaker 1: Firecrackers, gunshots? Fireworks, yeah. Hard to tell the difference? Yeah. Right after you kill Rosenbaum, there's three shots right after that, aren't there? [02:56:32] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:56:33] Speaker 1: From very close to where you were? Yes. Yet you don't turn and shoot anybody there after you hear those, did you? No. So, getting back to my original question, in this entire sequence of events, no one ever fired a shot at you, did they? No. No. After you kill Anthony Huber, shoot Gage Grosskreutz, and attempt to fire those two shots at the person who jumped at you, you got up and you walked away, didn't you? [02:57:12] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:57:12] Speaker 1: And you're about, what, a block away from the police line? Yes. And you know that police line's there because you're running towards it. [02:57:20] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:57:20] Speaker 1: And there's really nothing in the road between you and that police line, is there, after the shooting? No. Everybody scatters? No. [02:57:28] Speaker 2: Nothing in the road. [02:57:29] Speaker 1: So, you have a clear line of sight from where you did those shootings to those law enforcement vehicles, correct? Yes. And you still have your AR-15. [02:57:40] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:57:41] Speaker 1: And the crowd is pretty much run after they hear the shots, right? [02:57:46] Speaker 2: Yes. [02:57:47] Speaker 1: You still have your medic bag. Yes. Correct? Yes. You never once offer to help anybody that you just shot, correct? I don't. Correct, you don't? Correct. Anthony Huber is lying there over on the ground after you shot him once in the chest, correct? Yes. You didn't know, at that point, whether he was alive or dead, did you? I didn't. You never went over to check, did you? No. You didn't know whether it was possible to save his life at that moment or not, did you? I didn't. And you didn't even care. You just kept on walking, correct? [02:58:23] Speaker 2: I kept walking to get to the police line. [02:58:27] Speaker 1: Gage Grossquartz, right after you shoot him in the arm, is yelling, I need a medic. Did you hear that? Yes. That's in the videos, isn't it? Yes. You don't do anything to help him, do you? No. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? [02:58:53] Speaker ?: Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? Yes. You just decide to get out of there as fast as you can, correct? [02:59:11] Speaker 1: If you had seen someone running up the street with a gun and the crowd was saying that that person just shot someone, like they were saying about you, you would have taken action to stop them yourself, wouldn't you? [02:59:28] Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't have. [02:59:29] Speaker 1: You're running around putting out fires, aren't you? Yes. A shooting is far more serious than a fire, isn't it? Yes. You took it upon yourself to do the things that the police and the fire weren't doing that, fire departments weren't doing that night, correct? [02:59:43] Speaker 2: I helped to put out fires, but I wouldn't say that. [02:59:46] Speaker 1: You went around offering medical service because you didn't think there were EMTs or EMS that would be able to come in there, correct? Yes. So, you took it upon yourself to do the things that you didn't think the police or fire could do, correct? [03:00:03] Speaker 2: I wouldn't say I took it upon myself, but I was helping people with first aid and putting out fires at businesses. [03:00:09] Speaker 1: So, if you saw someone running with a gun and everybody said, "That guy just shot someone," you would have taken your AR-15 and tried to stop him, wouldn't you? It goes to the crowd's reaction to him, Your Honor. I think he would have reacted the same way. [03:00:26] Speaker 3: the crowd is important in terms of it's a factor that bears on some of the counts as to what the surroundings were. Otherwise, the crowd is unimportant and what the crowd, what he might have done vis-à-vis the crowd is, I don't see where we're going. I understand. [03:00:45] Speaker 1: When you got back to that police line and they, what did you say, they pepper sprayed you? [03:00:55] Speaker 2: I believe so, but I don't remember it. [03:00:57] Speaker 1: They told you to get out of the road because they were going in there to do what you hadn't done, which is to try and help the people that you just shot, right? Yes. And then you went back after that to the 59th Street car source, didn't you? Yes. And you told them that you just shot someone? Yes. Someone, meaning an individual person, correct? [03:01:19] Speaker 2: I wasn't meaning individual, I was saying I just shot someone, I just shot someone. [03:01:27] Speaker 1: You were told by Nick Smith that the police were coming to your location, to the 59th Street car source, right? I don't recall that. And yet, you decided to flee, didn't you? No. You didn't stick around for the police, did you? [03:01:44] Speaker 2: I went to go turn myself into the Antioch Police Department. [03:01:49] Speaker 1: A couple of hours later? An hour later. [03:01:51] Speaker 4: Actually, it wasn't a couple of hours, it was the time it was. [03:01:55] Speaker 1: I'm asking the witness, if the witness can answer. Uh, go ahead, you can answer, sir. It was a couple of hours later, wasn't it? No. And in between leaving that location in downtown Kenosha and getting to Antioch, you were looking at social media, weren't you? No, I wasn't. My phone was dead. You had heard from other people that your name was out there, right? Later on in the evening, I believe I heard something, but no. You knew that your picture was out there, right? No. You're telling me, as you sit here under oath, that after those shootings, between then and the time you turned yourself into the Antioch Police Department, you had no idea that there was social media out there with your picture and your name as the shooter. [03:02:48] Speaker 2: I'm trying to recall, but I can't, I'm trying to remember. I'm sorry, I don't remember. [03:03:09] Speaker 4: I have enough other questions. [03:03:18] Speaker ?: You may step down, sir. [03:03:18] Speaker 3: up down, sir.