Food Out of Thin Air? - Solar Foods Full Interview

[00:00:00] Zach: everybody Zach here from now you know and I'm lucky to be here today with dr. Pasi Vinica he is the CEO and co-founder of solar foods and I'm speaking to him from Finland now the reason I'm so excited to talk to him is because their company appears to make food out of thin air dr. Vinica thank you for being with me can you explain how does your company make food out of thin air one of [00:00:31] dr. Pasi Vinica: the background key backgrounds what we had here is that myself as the co-founder now CTO in solar foods dr. you have a bit kind of where scientists in our National Research Institute myself I was in charge of a single largest renewable energy research program we had in that now our National Research Institute that corresponds something like NREL in the US and we have two key findings one was that electricity is the new primary energy so if we want to make a carbon neutral future for the energy system electricity is the new primary energy whether it's nuclear renewables but you need to electrify transport heating cooling industrial processes instead of burning and in this kind of future then you have a we had another finding which was that if you leave fossils in the ground you need call leave coal oil and gas in the ground you could replace this carbon for materials and fuels even medicine by by capturing carbon dioxide from the air and actually we made fuels from the air as well but it was a major finding after these two things and that kind of depressing for me to find out that even if we would do all this install all the technologies that we were researching and reinvesting a whole energy system it's not good enough to comply with the Paris climate accord or what the IPCC is declaring we would need to do or change the things what is basically happening in the Amazon now that there seems to be some of the energy that the energy that burns around because about one quarter of the greenhouse gas footprint do human action is due to what we eat and not from the energy sector at all so with this background it's quite easy to understand that we thought that you're allowed to have air and electricity and could you turn that for example instead of fields which is a simple molecule to something very complex like proteins and amino acids and you could do that you have Becca had a solution for that and a very convenient factory to produce this is actually living cell [00:02:38] Zach: it almost sounds like you just reproduced what people talk about is was the beginning of life on earth you know I learned it in school this way that you know maybe there was a swamp somewhere and you know lightning struck and all of a sudden single form life was formed it sounds like that's what you're doing [00:02:54] dr. Pasi Vinica: yeah like the primordial soup so basically we we are reversing time we are growing a simple form of life which is completely natural isolated from from samples that we've taken from from nature the difference is that now there are technologies how you can grow and harvest this so historically the man has been able to hunt the animal you can see maybe you can smell it run after it and hunt it down or you've you've been able to keep between your fingers seeds or or pick berries but if you would have tried to pick single cells from the nature it just wouldn't work out and you would just died uh but now we are going there uh taking these organisms and growing and harvesting that and most of the diversity of the life on the planet actually is in the small life microbial and insects and we're just taking advantage of that and in addition uh what follows is efficiency because if you think for example that you're hunting for rabbits uh the rapids needs to eat grass then it runs around it needs to have hair bones and things like that but what you need from that or the man the caveman would have needed it's actually the flesh but now we are growing only that part that contains proteins carbs and fats and that's just fundamentally more efficient than using plants or animals interesting so you're so lean what does it [00:04:24] Zach: contain its proteins but what can it give us nutrition wise for our body like what's it made up of [00:04:29] dr. Pasi Vinica: it's uh it's protein as any protein which means that it's it's a form of life when you analyze it you couldn't really see difference to soy dried soy powder or algae powder which are both very high in [00:04:46] Zach: protein so it's it's it's the same so does this mean that you could uh replace uh soy powder with solene and make foods that we all eat with it that's exactly the idea so we don't assume that [00:05:00] dr. Pasi Vinica: people would eat pills uh and and using this this powder as such but instead we see this as a platform technology a way to deliver fundamentally more efficient food system on on in what comes to proteins because we we could be a protein ingredient for existing food products so plant-based dairy whether it's it's drinks or yogurts or similar we could be a protein there we could be in bread or or in pasta or we could be in plant-based meat alternatives it's quite hot topic now uh where where the big companies seem to use pea protein isolate or soy as as the source of protein so we were kind of drop in protein uh to them and and the future if uh if uh we would be starting to to produce and scale a cultured meat growing real meat cells then when you scale it you would need quite a lot amino acids and sugars that the the cells eat and we could provide the amino acid cocktail for for that cultured medium so right now i read on your website that [00:06:04] Zach: you're able to make about a kilo of solene a day and i i assume the plan is to start scaling this up what um what are your plans in the near future how much solene do you hope to start producing we're [00:06:15] dr. Pasi Vinica: happy to announce we can go to to a next uh level and start to execute our go-to-market plan which means that we're going to build something that's about 100 times bigger than what we have um which we think is is kind of a go-to-market scale with a reasonable risk uh and investment uh and uh with that together so that's kind of the technical part uh and and the second is is the novel food approval so what we are doing now is that we're we've been searching for an organism that grows well it grows uh efficiently it's good for for human consumption and and you can you know get some ip around it and then we're generating most importantly data for the novel food approval so we need that for the european uni and fda us that data is being generated as we speak so because of this we've been saying that our target year is in 2021 so two and a half years uh when we could be uh on the market that's exciting yeah it's [00:07:19] Zach: it's so far so far but so close in a way right right um so you said on the website that um solene is is 100 times or two orders of magnitude more environmentally friendly than any animal or plant-based alternative can you kind of explain that what why is that actually what we've said [00:07:38] dr. Pasi Vinica: that was a bit shortcut by by a journalist what we said is that that we're about 100 times better than meat and 10 times better than than plants but then after that you start to be so close to zero in your emissions per kilogram that things become very relative but that's a to give give kind of the order of of magnitude and we stay stand behind it because we don't use uh fertilizers and fossil fertilizers on open land we don't apply nitrogen-based fertilizers on open land that generate nitrous oxide life laughing gas which is very harmful to uh to the atmosphere more harmful than the carbon dioxide we don't use irrigation in open land no pesticides and the the efficiency of of from electricity to calories is so high that the follow-up result or benefit is is huge in terms of climate impact so most of the climate impact what we have is is due to the energy what we use so we need to be very careful what kind of power it wouldn't make what what kind of power we use it wouldn't make sense to make proteins from carbon dioxide that you just emitted in burning fields in the past five years regardless of what has happened in the food sector solar has become the cheapest source of power in the sun belt and where we live here up in north wind power is actually cheapest new capacity so we're taking advantage of of this trend [00:09:12] Zach: so would you say that solene is actually carbon negative if you use alternative energy to make it [00:09:18] dr. Pasi Vinica: that's actually a very good point it it actually can be in in the case we assume that we are producing food and replacing something then basically because of the efficiency you free land so for people out [00:09:32] Zach: there who are wondering if they've got you with the water question because i know a lot of people were talking about that after our show a couple weeks ago they were saying well it takes water to make this so [00:09:42] dr. Pasi Vinica: that's not so good what do you say to those folks we don't apply irrigation so we use only fraction of the water what open land processes for example plants and animal need it's a fraction of that in addition to that we can recycle that water in our system we actually one extreme example is actually the the project what we have the european space agency to develop a version of our technology for the future mars missions there you need to recycle everything that you once launched uh to to mars so that's an ultimate sort of fully uh recycling system we are brewing technology and because the closed process uh we are very efficient in in water use and when you actually go for air capture you can also capture water from the air we've done that uh in the past um in addition to to carbon dioxide you can milk the air there actually it's an existing technology in the gulf region even today so yes i mean i was seeing on your website [00:10:45] Zach: to get back to the water thing that um you know beef uses uh 15 000 liters of water to make a kilo of beef whereas you guys are 10 times more efficient than even soy is at making a kilo of protein yeah that's [00:10:58] dr. Pasi Vinica: because of the irrigation and uh and evaporation and operating in open land now you just mentioned mars [00:11:05] Zach: a second ago um when we get to mars we're gonna need to eat something it sounds like this could be a very promising technology for farming on mars yeah actually the the study what we've done so far there [00:11:16] dr. Pasi Vinica: are a couple of details um that um we're especially happy um but uh still keep them to to ourselves what i think we've resolved in the past year some some key issues for for the recycling concept a circular system for for for for the mission about 40 liter reactor um could supply protein for for the whole crew if it's five six astronauts but then you would need additionally of course carbs and fats uh for for the astronauts we are quite low in in fats so that needs to be uh resolved then you could also say that there could be another organism that you grow like this but it's higher in fat then we are left with the problem that uh food is not only only energy but it's a psychological issue how that could remind you of earth or somehow it affects the textures and all that so it's it's still a long way to go but uh we're trying trying to do our part uh on on the calorie and amino acid side so basically it sounds like at the [00:12:22] Zach: moment this wouldn't be a 100 of your diet that the idea here wouldn't be to replace everything you eat with solene but it could replace a big part of your diet yeah i think we could uh play a reasonable [00:12:33] dr. Pasi Vinica: part in in the protein start start uh side of the story but of course we're not saying that this is silver bullet and you could eat only this and uh and unlike you know you could recommend uh having only hamburgers five times a day but if we think kind of return to the climate problem and trying to pin out the key things and where you could do uh most of impact i think this is uh the area and how [00:12:59] Zach: about cost is this something that um i'm sure when you're starting anything up it's way more expensive than it will be when you start to scale but do you have any idea down the road if the cost will start [00:13:08] dr. Pasi Vinica: to be affordable with our full scale factor so after a demonstrator we're going to tell about our factory plans during the autumn that what is it that we have after after the roadmap what we are starting now and after go to market and and and uh with a small facility then what what the what is it that you end up with what is the optimum size of the facility and all that actually it's been pre-engineered so in in that scale uh the production cost would be around six dollars per kilogram on how 100 percent protein basis um it's it's more than that it's higher than soy uh but i think uh the the segment what we are aiming at the kind of the rest of the field after soy we're quite comfortable with that um and and and we're quite confident that it it could be uh accepted on that cost level if we go to the sea and that would be the conditions of nordics where we are now uh you know with the labor cost and all the taxes and that but if you would go to uh the cheapest source of electricity and scale that factor we see a floor cost that is around uh two dollars or so per per kilogram of 100 protein uh so then we are roughly there uh matching soy soon uh um for for human consumption so so is electricity um one of your biggest costs so if you if you look the the six dollar case two and a half dollars from that is is uh the part of electricity okay so it's a big part and then i guess labor would be one of [00:14:45] Zach: your other big costs labor and then capital cost speaking of labor are farmers of the future going to look more like this than than uh traditional farmers yes and no you could see that that this area [00:14:57] dr. Pasi Vinica: is increasing there are if you say are the beyond people the kind of the new farmers uh perhaps so so or although we go to the to the fundamental ingredient production so that there's a there's a difference i see it increasing um but then again being realistic with the increasing population i don't see the current agriculture disappear but it'd rather be questioned that we might need up to 70 percent more food by end of the century so so making that up from the current piece of land and water what we have on the planet with declining you know fish catch that might be questionable so you need something additional to to kind of fill that gap and and there we come to play now uh people who are watching [00:15:45] Zach: right now maybe students kids are out there watching who are excited about maybe getting into this field what are some of the things they should be thinking about studying i mean it sounds like you're at a cross-section between all sorts of sciences uh you know biology and engineering and physics and you know what are some of the valuable skills that they should be thinking about learning whatever you feel [00:16:04] dr. Pasi Vinica: motivated even passionate uh you feel that that you're kind of good at and would like to learn more uh and even if you're not good at you can you can learn just you know working harder to to uh learn what you or do you think you would need to know but then make a company uh make a startup or or or develop a new solution i would say that today you in every case would need friends and possibly friends that are different to you so they did study something else and and when you uh put these disciplines together from the intersections you can find new things and opportunities so for example what i have background in energy engineering and i was uh in full steam with that but then my our cto in solar foods a bioprocess engineer so i it what he did is is kind of magic to me uh and and and then uh also if you look for for or kind of a founding a company it's also something like that investors like that they're complementing skills in the team so maybe in short you know do whatever you you feel is important you're interested in and work harder uh but you know make friends and appreciate others and and then you can actually when you find a together common vision then it kind of everyone starts to go to the same direction and magic can happen [00:17:36] Zach: i love that that's awesome advice speaking of investors is your company at the point or going to be at the point at any where you're going to need investors seed round investors people who are watching right now who are like this sounds like a great investment how can they get involved yeah we are raising a [00:17:50] dr. Pasi Vinica: round in the in the coming uh let's say eight to ten months we think that we need to have uh really good evidence on the applicability of of the protein uh and and the novel food approval to to really prove our our case uh we are generating asset this this at the moment and once we have it we we think that we'll be ready to go with that with the investors and they would appreciate it so with the current uh funding uh we are aiming at to kind of finalize that part and uh that's in how we are proceeding in the in the road map so but very soon we're we're open how can uh viewers who are [00:18:28] Zach: interested in this follow you uh can they go to your website what's the best way to follow what [00:18:32] dr. Pasi Vinica: you're up to yeah we we try to be increasingly active the social media even youtube we know i know that there will be videos where our people will be featured in even our our kind of space applications uh things um so you could follow that and social media in general uh you can go to our our website and especially there's one thing that when you go there there will be a pop-up you can uh download our our some our material but also sign up for our newsletter and then you will be updated on our progress and i promise you there will be a lot of news in the in the coming months oh cool we'll [00:19:10] Zach: put all the links in our show notes down below so that people can follow that well thank you so much for taking time today to talk about everything that's going on at solar foods i know when i read the story originally it almost sounded too good to be true it's really great to speak to the ceo of the company to see that nope it's real you guys are actually doing it and it sounds like some exciting [00:19:29] dr. Pasi Vinica: things are in the road for you guys yeah thank you very much for for having me thanks so much for [00:19:35] Zach: watching now you know we work hard to bring you videos about things that we think you'll find useful but we need to know from you what you want to see so leave your comments below also don't forget to go over to our patreon page where for as little as a buck a month you can watch our patreon bonus story every week on Tesla Time News. Thanks again, we'll see you soon.