‘Fight fire with fire’: Sherrill on playbook to defeat Trump’s GOP

[0:00] you know, even if we wanted to, there's just no getting back to the pre-Trump era. Now, [0:07] I personally wouldn't want to because I think there was a great deal of inertia there, which [0:10] is what people I think were responding to when they elected him. Twice. However, right? So it's [0:17] not that that was the Shangri-La, you know, cans were being kicked down the road that we're [0:22] addressing now. But at the same time, we have to chart a different path forward because I think I [0:27] was listening to somebody the other day who said he's really good at identifying the problems. [0:32] He's really bad at creating any solutions. So then he just makes everything worse. [0:41] In an era that all too often feels defined these days by grift and scandal and the tearing down [0:46] of expertise and basic lack of respect for public service and public servants, our guest this week [0:53] proves there is indeed another way. She has spent her entire life serving our country, first as a [0:58] Navy helicopter pilot, then as a federal prosecutor, a member of Congress, and now as a big state [1:05] governor. In the last few years, she just may have given the Democratic Party a possible roadmap [1:09] to beating Donald Trump and the Republican Party at their own game. So this is the best people. And [1:15] this is New Jersey's governor, Mikey Sherrill. Thank you for being here, governor. [1:19] Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it. [1:21] So I remember on election day asking about your race and asking about your friend, now Governor [1:30] Abigail Spamberger's race. And people said, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if [1:35] Cheryl's going to make it. I said, really? She's ahead in the polls. I feel like you have been [1:39] underestimated at every turn. Is that a New Jersey thing? Is that a woman thing? Is that a you thing? [1:46] What do you think that is? That's a really good question. You know, because it was a very odd [1:54] campaign. I think there was this narrative set. A lot of the media, a lot of the kind of right-wing [2:02] media, I think, really enjoyed the narrative and kept poking it and pushing it. But, you know, [2:06] I did hear it again and again. I'd go to these thousand-person crowds. I'd go to some red area [2:11] of the state on a Tuesday in the rain and, you know, have a room full of people. And we'd see [2:17] the excitement on the ground. Our internal polling looked great. And even once the early votes [2:23] started to come in again and again and again, you know, we're hearing, oh, it's close. It's going to [2:28] be closer than it should be. There's no energy. There's no excitement. And it was just, I've never [2:33] run in a campaign where the feeling on the ground was more different from everything you heard about [2:40] the race. And so I felt pretty confident the whole time. I remember getting really frustrated, [2:47] you know, for the 20th time when someone came up to me at an event and said, oh, it looks like the [2:52] polls are closer than they should be. Or why does nobody else feel confident? And I just said to him, [2:58] I said, you know what, I'm just running to win. And I think people have forgotten what that looks like. [3:04] And so we just, you know, we were running a race that was really dedicated to listening to people, [3:09] to making sure we were responsive, that I had a plan to create opportunities, to drive down costs, [3:15] to fight Trump when I had to. And that just wasn't what, you know, national people thought a race [3:21] should look like for some reason. [3:23] You converted a lot of Trump voters who a year before they voted for you thought Donald Trump [3:30] was a good idea. What was your pitch to them? [3:33] I have always run these campaigns that I have thought of as fairly nonpartisan. And I'm very [3:39] proud to be a Democrat. And I'm, you know, I believe deeply in this idea that well-run government [3:45] can be life-changing. I've seen it in my own family. And yet at the same time, what I'm running [3:50] on to me just makes perfect sense for working people. It's not about whether you're a Democrat [3:55] or a Republican. It's about just driving down family's costs and making good policy, creating [4:00] jobs, creating opportunity. I always think of the American dream as that idea, you know, [4:05] you want to do well, you want to create something for yourself and you want your kids to do just a [4:08] little bit better. And, and to me, that kind of centers my work. And so that doesn't feel very [4:15] partisan. And I think really focusing on running that way is what is appealing to people and then [4:21] executing. What is the opportunity though, to do that in a moment when Donald Trump's own sanity [4:28] is being questioned by members from deep inside his coalition? I mean, obviously people want a [4:35] government that works for them, but you know, you were running this campaign around issues people [4:41] care about, issues people voted for Trump because they cared about them so much, affordability, [4:45] the prices of things. I mean, how do you thread that needle of speaking to sort of the voracious [4:51] political appetites of the moment and doing the meat and potatoes work of governing and delivering? [4:57] Right now, after running for over a year, I'm so connected to the people across the state. I've [5:04] spoken to thousands of them. I know where they're at. And so I know what I have to do. And it is [5:10] deliver. You know, I would go to people and say, look, I'm going to declare a state of emergency. [5:16] I'm going to freeze rate hikes. Oh, you know, Mikey, you're just, that's just a talking point. [5:21] Or I'm going to really fight hard for opportunity and innovation economy. Oh, everybody says that. [5:27] And it hurt me. I'm sitting here as somebody who's been a public servant my entire life, [5:33] listening to people express that they don't have a lot of faith in government. And I, [5:37] the worst part about it was that I knew exactly why they were saying that because I'd seen it myself. [5:42] You know, these members of Congress who maybe love to go on church to church on Sunday and have [5:48] everybody, oh, that's the Congresswoman. And then they go back to Washington, but [5:51] they haven't passed a bill in years. You know, they're never at the caucus meetings. They're never [5:56] actually getting votes. They're not doing the work. They're sort of just a figurehead that maybe [6:02] somebody on their staff tweets online about some stuff. It is a privilege to serve, but it's a [6:08] responsibility. You've got to leave. You've got to serve and you've got to deliver. [6:12] And for too many people, it's this theoretical book club. Well-run government's life-changing [6:18] and we have to deliver. And I'm a mom of four kids and I don't have time for this. I don't have [6:24] time for people who aren't performing. And no family in New Jersey does either. I mean, think about it. [6:30] You know, you're a mom. You seem from everything I can tell to be incredibly busy. I mean, you know [6:36] that sense, right, of like, oh my gosh, I cannot sit around right now. I need this to happen now. [6:42] I need things to happen now because, you know, you just, you're too busy. And people in the state [6:50] are too busy. They're working too hard. They've got too much going on in their life to have this [6:54] nonsensical federal government that's making everything harder. They need somebody to stand [6:59] up for them and they need it now. It's not, it can't be two years. It can't be a strongly [7:03] worded letter. It can't be a 10-year study tomorrow. They need somebody doing stuff that's [7:09] going to impact them tomorrow. And that's what we're working to deliver. [7:13] If you were still in Congress, would you have joined, I think, some of those six members who [7:20] made the video warning the men and women of the military not to follow an illegal order? Would [7:26] you have, would you have joined them? You know, it's something I really felt at the time [7:31] because I was so upset about what was going on. And that had been such a key part of my training. [7:38] If you remember when I went to the Naval Academy, that was about 20 years from Vietnam. [7:44] So we were still very much being inculcated in those lessons learned from Vietnam and not to [7:50] follow illegal orders and what it meant. And I remember as like an 18-year-old thinking, okay, [7:56] if I'm with, you know, if I'm getting ordered to do this, you know, am I going to have the courage [8:00] to stand up when I know what's wrong? And how am I going to know if, you know, I don't have all [8:05] the information and taking that responsibility seriously. And so to see people who were, you [8:12] know, possibly bombing fishing trawlers and with incomplete information, people could have stood [8:17] up to see a secretary of defense who was so incompetent and so out of control. And I guess it [8:26] hit me really hard watching Hegseth because I was at the Naval Academy at a time when women there were [8:33] new. I just went to the 50th anniversary of women at the service academies. And it was a time when it [8:41] was really being questioned. And, you know, there was an article put out that women can't fight by [8:47] James Webb that was really offensive. And, you know, I recalled that all of my classmates came in as [8:53] as plebs or freshmen. They had no problem with women. I mean, it wasn't a big deal, but that was [8:58] inculcated. And I knew how young people could, you know, could be trained in that way. So I was very [9:04] worried about what Hegseth was trying to institute, firing the female chief of naval operations, moving [9:10] the female superintendent out of the Naval Academy, firing other admirals and generals. So I remember when [9:16] they stood up and said that, um, I thought it was an important reminder. I think everyone in this [9:21] country has to be reminded that they have a real responsibility, especially in these positions of [9:26] trust. [9:26] You talked a little bit about Hegseth's rule, uh, rule and role. Um, you were still in Congress during [9:35] his confirmation. You had some really specific lines of questioning for him. Do you, do you think [9:42] there are Republicans who regret voting for him? Or have you heard from any who expressed that? [9:46] I certainly hope so. I would hope that when they've watched his complete incompetence, [9:51] um, that they really regret it. I would hope when they see that, I think nine four stars have been [9:56] fired the most in such a short period of time in our nation's history. And on top of that, then we get [10:04] into a war that the president can't explain and nobody seemed to stand up to him to, to tell him, [10:10] you know, you really have to have a strategy or a plan, or you can't put Americans' lives at stake [10:15] with no plan. Um, I would hope that, that they regret it. And I, um, and yet, you know, they, [10:23] they don't seem to have spoken out against getting rid of some of the previous cabinet members like [10:28] Nome, for example, they seem to understand that that needed to happen. And that was a debacle. [10:33] And I assume many of them think that Hegseth is a debacle, but at the same time, I'm not hearing [10:40] enough from them to do anything about it. They think the sense that there are so many elected leaders [10:45] that in a time of crisis are not standing up or charting out a different path forward and are [10:50] being quiet in the face of it is what really breeds this distrust in government. [10:56] You were one of the first people, I think, after January 6th to do what the whole country was asked [11:02] to do after September 11th. If you see something, say something. And I remember interviewing you about [11:07] the Republicans ahead of January 6th going along with Trump's lie about, um, not actually losing [11:14] when even Bill Barr said that was, um, I think Bill Barr called it, quote, bullshit. And you've got a [11:20] little bit of, of distance now. You're the chief executive of your own state. When you look at how [11:26] Congress functions, having sort of gone along with someone who attacked the seat of government, [11:31] they all ran for their lives. They tried to put the toothpaste back in the tube. And I wonder [11:36] how you think that changed the relationship between the president and Congress. [11:42] I think that's a really good question. It's just shocking, really, when you think about that. And [11:47] there was no accountability for him. And I think that that was an inflection point where, you know, [11:55] you had a choice to either decide that this was a red line, trying to interfere with a democratic [12:02] election, even calling for violence against the vice president, et cetera. [12:06] Or you could just do what I think a lot of people felt was the easier thing and just [12:13] hide, duck and cover, kind of hope it went away. And, and I really wonder, I often wonder how McConnell [12:21] feels about all this because he was really the key to me. And I think he led the charge of let's just [12:26] get through this. I assume thinking, well, he's about, you know, he's gone now. And I wonder if he [12:32] ever thinks, you know, he's back. And I could have done something about that. And we could have [12:38] been in a very different place. I think that was a real inflection point where there should have been [12:43] nobody who's taken an oath to the Constitution that, that wasn't going to, you know, draw a red line [12:51] there, impeach him, make sure he could never hold office again in this country. And they didn't do [12:55] their job. And now we're here. [12:58] Yeah. I mean, and I think about it in the sort of reverse engineering, who's standing up to him. [13:04] I mean, and, and I wonder, you didn't really answer directly, but I'll, I'll, I'll take it as a [13:09] probably that the six that stood up to, I don't even know if you call it standing up to Trump, but stood [13:15] up for the men and women of the military and simply put out a public message saying you, it is your job. [13:21] It is your duty to disobey an illegal order. I mean, the post January 6th Congress to me feels [13:29] different in that it is the national security figures, the people who took an oath to the [13:33] Constitution. It's Senator Kelly, it's Senator Slotkin, it's yourself and now Governor Spanberger, [13:40] who understand what it, what it means to, I think, have a commander in chief that puts the country and [13:45] the military in tension with the Constitution. And I wonder if as the governor, you hear from many [13:50] military families in your state about what it's like to have Trump as commander in chief. [13:57] Yeah. And I'm sorry, I didn't answer directly. Sometimes that annoys me. I, I don't want to [14:02] have any sort of stolen valor or suggest that, you know, oh yeah, I, I, I would be just as strong [14:08] as that. Yes, I, I'm sure I would have joined the video had I been there, but I'm so, uh, I'm [14:14] impressed with those who did stand up and did, um, really remind serving men and women of what [14:22] it means to serve and take an oath. And when I look at what's going on and what, what Trump [14:28] and Hexeth have done, I find it very, um, strategic. I look at the first Trump administration [14:35] administration and what kept him from going further than he did was often the military. [14:41] It was people like General Milley or Secretary Esper. Yeah. And, um, Kelly. And Kelly, it, it [14:49] really, it, it was the military members who would not fall in line. And I think that surprised [14:57] him. If you recall, he hired all these generals and he, he kept trying to call them my generals, [15:02] right? Uh, which sort of tried to politicize the military, tried to make them his arm. And [15:09] then he started to try to create a group that would follow his orders. And so you could see [15:16] that the very first thing he seemed to do in his administration was fire Lisa Franchetti, [15:23] the first woman chief of naval operations. Yeah. Fire the chairman of the joint chiefs of [15:27] staff who was black. I even, that's one of the things I questioned Hexeth on. Less than a [15:32] month into the job, you fired the chairman of the joint chiefs, uh, CQ Brown and the [15:36] chief of Naval operations, Lisa Franchetti, without cause. And to this day, you still [15:41] have not provided an adequate explanation for removing them. As far as I can tell, you [15:45] fired CQ Brown because he was black and Lisa Franchetti because she is a woman. [15:50] And imagine a world where your secretary of defense isn't appalled over that charge. Not [15:57] over, not only was he not appalled at it, he basically shrugged it off because I think [16:01] that's exactly what happened. And many to follow, you know, anyone that Trump thought might stand [16:07] up to him or wasn't loyal to him. And remember our military doesn't take a loyalty oath to the [16:13] president. This isn't, you know, a kingdom or a monarchy. Our military takes an oath to the [16:20] Constitution. And the president tried to disrupt that and continues to try to do that along with [16:23] Higgseth. And so it was very calculated. And then he tried to use the National Guard. I think the [16:29] courts pretty much put a stop to that. But you saw early on, he was trying to, you know, co-op the [16:34] National Guard to be his force. And now ICE agents. So again and again, he's tried to create his own [16:40] military force and undermine any professional officers and soldiers that would stand against him. And I can [16:48] tell you, yeah, I speak to, you know, many of our military members struggle. Do you stay and stand [16:57] in the breach? Because we know what a powerful organization it is and you need people who care [17:03] about the Constitution to be there to try to hold the line as illegal things are being done, as war [17:09] crimes are being committed. Or do you just get out and say, I can't, you know, I'm complicit. And I think [17:15] they're constantly trying to figure out where that line is, you know, am I, am I standing in the breach or am I [17:22] complicit? And it's really difficult. It's really difficult to do. But I'm, I'm so impressed with those [17:29] people who are, especially our junior officers, who are staying and are trying to find the path forward, knowing [17:38] that we're counting on them to be the future of a professional military and not a militia, you know, [17:46] that doesn't follow the Constitution. I mean, you could almost take the military out of that example [17:53] and tell the same story about DOJ, right? Like there are career prosecutors who are probably grappling [17:59] with the same thing. Do I stand in the breach and try to make sure we're only taking cases based on [18:05] actual real evidence into the grand jury? And they seem to be falling like dominoes as well. [18:11] How for the next three years do states sort of grapple with the hollowing out of the military and the [18:18] Justice Department? How do you run a state without a credible U.S. Attorney's Office in, in, in your [18:24] states? How do you do the things that the state and federal government typically partner on? [18:31] It's really difficult. As you know, I used to serve in the U.S. Attorney's Office as a federal [18:35] prosecutor. So it's funny you say that because as I was charting out the military, I've had the very [18:41] same conversations with friends of mine in the DOJ. And, you know, how do you make that decision? [18:47] And, um, it's difficult. We've been trying to find that path forward. And there are certain areas [18:53] where we can do it quite easily. Taking the president to court on the gateway tunnel. I mean, [18:59] that's great in, in the AG's office and getting our federal money back and making those cases with [19:04] other states. We can do that kind of stuff. But when it comes to, uh, for example, state corruption, [19:12] it always looks a little like self-dealing if you're engaging in, um, cases against state [19:18] corruption, especially if the person is found not guilty. Somehow everyone thinks there's a [19:23] political angle to it. That is best handled by U.S. Attorney's offices. That's best handled by the [19:29] federal government because they are seen as someone apart from the state who is an honest broker in [19:35] that situation. And so it, you know, there are reasons that we have federal prosecutors in the [19:43] states. I mean, they, they are set up to have our system of justice operate well. And when they're [19:49] not good actors, um, when they are threatening to politicize the office, like Alina Hobbit did in, [19:56] in the district of New Jersey and, and when you see prosecutors trying to do whatever Trump wants [20:04] them to do, that really upends our system of justice. In fact, it used to be a joke in the U.S. [20:11] attorney's community, which probably won't be very funny because those jokes aren't, but the Southern [20:16] District of New York was often called the Sovereign District of New York because they, you know, they, [20:21] they, they are apart from, right? They are carrying out justice and justice is blind. And so, um, [20:30] you see a real problem with this. So the states are, states are expanding state power, which I think [20:36] it's high time. I think the federal government has overreached over the years. And so that's one of the [20:41] things I'm intent upon doing is in those areas that really states do operate in with a great deal of [20:47] power. We are taking back our power and making sure that we are, um, not allowing the president [20:53] to erode it. So he's asked for all our voter rolls, um, and, and basically did not quote a complaint at [21:00] us, just quoted the law and we're following the law. So we say no reason to, to give those voter rolls [21:06] to him or all the private information. He's taken us to court, but we're taking a strong stand here. [21:11] And I think we'll prevail, but it is incredibly problematic as a state governor, when you have a [21:17] president of the United States who has asked the Congress for $1.5 trillion on defense. Yeah. [21:23] He spent billions on wars that he can't explain and, and exercises he can't explain or doesn't [21:29] have a strategy for. He's involved in an illegal tariff regime, raising costs on everyone. [21:35] So as he's driving up these costs for people, as he wants all this defense money, he wants to cut [21:42] Medicare, Medicaid, social security, all the ways in which snap funding, uh, education funding, [21:47] different things that, uh, really the federal government runs these programs, which if the [21:54] state is truly going to operate in these ways in which the federal government seems to want them [21:58] to do, then they've got to stop taxing us. We need the money. Yeah. I think I saw you are engaged [22:04] in litigation against the Trump administration on multiple fronts, many you just named, um, [22:10] refusing to turn over the voter rolls, the snap benefits, funding for the tunnel. How much [22:16] of your sort of day is eaten up by, um, the sort of extrajudicial conduct of this administration [22:25] and how much of that is outside the norm, sort of state federal tension? [22:29] So we move really quickly now. We have a system. Um, I get some of the amicus briefs or the cases, [22:36] you know, routinely. It does eat up time. I don't think as much as before, because we've really [22:42] system, you know, made sure it's a system to move quickly because it's really necessary. The gateway [22:47] tunnel, unfortunately, that did take up quite a bit of time fighting for that. But that was so critical [22:53] to the economy, you know, a hundred thousand jobs potentially, um, not to mention to commuters and [23:01] in and out of the city to jobs in a tunnel that was really damaged by Superstorm Sandy. We have to [23:06] remediate it. So in all these ways, it's a great deal of time and effort. But I also think that what [23:13] we're doing is charting out a very different path forward because we can't, you know, even if [23:20] we wanted to, there, there's just no getting back to the pre-Trump era. Now, I personally wouldn't [23:26] want to, because I think there was a great deal of inertia there, which is what people I think [23:29] were responding to when they elected them. Twice. However, right? So, so it's not that that was [23:37] the Shangri-La, you know, cans were being kicked down the road that we're addressing now. But at the [23:42] same time, we have to chart a different path forward because I think I was listening to somebody the [23:48] other day who said he's really good at identifying the problems. He's really bad at creating any [23:54] solutions. So, I mean, it just makes everything worse. And I think people, right? [23:58] Senator Slotkin said something similar. She said he's got like the right, you know, read the wrong [24:04] solution, you know, the right sort of thing that bugs people, but the wrong way to scratch their itches. [24:11] And I'm not quoting her accurately now, but it is this recognition that some Democrats and [24:17] Republicans, ex-Republicans are so blinded by hatred of him that they can't even examine the [24:22] things that Trump and Bannon and his coalition get right about voters. But there is this anti-elite [24:29] sort of rage that was a slow simmer. And he just rode that to victory in 16 and then again in 24 with [24:38] all the sort of warts of being an insurrectionist and a felon. What is your sense of why it's still [24:47] hard for some Democrats to learn the lessons of what he did right? [24:51] I think because he's such a hypocrite, that just sticks in the crawl of so many people. So he runs on [25:00] things that I think identify this anti-elitism. And then he enriches himself and billionaires, [25:08] you know, so it's really- Like in full view, like not even hiding it. [25:12] With no shame, you know? So I think that's what's hard, but I agree with you. I think there is space [25:21] now because of this identification of these problems to address them in a really powerful [25:26] way. So I always think of how interesting it is that Trump is so well-liked when he's running for [25:32] office and so unliked when he's in office. And I think it's just this point because he identifies [25:37] these problems. Everyone's like, yeah. And then he gets in and does things that are actually making [25:42] everything far, far worse. Yes. But it does give us the space, those of us who really want to run [25:49] effective government and don't want to kick the can down the road, don't like the status quo, [25:53] do want to take on the hard problems to do that. And something I've learned is to move really quickly. [26:01] You know, we've got to move more quickly. There was just, again, this inertia, this sense like [26:08] these problems and everybody can identify them, but we're not doing stuff about them. So I remember in [26:15] 2018 being really frustrated because, you know, I came from a criminal justice background and [26:21] everybody knows the last place you want to spend all your money is on a prison system. We know a lot [26:28] of the things that work for communities and to create better outcomes. And yet it didn't seem like [26:34] we could put any money there. We just had to keep building more prisons. And the same thing was true [26:38] of our crumbling infrastructure. We couldn't fix bridges, but we, until they collapsed. Or health care. [26:45] We couldn't treat nutrition programs, but we could only, you know, we'd only treat diabetes. [26:49] So the list went on and on and on and on. So what I think I've taken away from the Trump [26:55] administration is to just move quickly. We have a lot to do. It'll never be fast enough, [27:02] but we, you know, that's why I heard again and again and again, like, oh, everybody says that. [27:09] So I finally got sick of it. I said, look, I'm declaring a state of emergency on day one, [27:13] and I'm freezing rate hikes. You know, hold me accountable. I'm going to do this so you guys can [27:19] see right away what I'm doing. And I stopped my inaugural address and signed these executive [27:23] orders, almost just like, yep, here you go, guys. Right? We're moving. I think that kind of speed [27:29] is what people need to see. I haven't even been in office a hundred days. We've lifted the nuclear [27:35] moratorium. We've approved six battery storage and solar projects that have been languishing for months. [27:42] We've cut through red tape and permitting delays. We've expanded our power generation for years to [27:47] come again and again and again. We've just started moving because we need to. We have a lot of work [27:55] to do, but we also need people to understand that, you know, we're not waiting around. We get how busy [28:02] you guys are. We are too, and we don't have time to waste. [28:05] My favorite movie about the presidency is Dave. You know, the guy goes in and the real president [28:12] is in the basement in a coma, and he sits in the cabinet meeting and says, budget smudget, [28:17] commerce guy, can I have some of your money to fill that? I watched it when I worked in the White [28:21] House all the time because it's what people actually want. People don't want to think that [28:25] common sense dies when you become president. But I think some of what you're describing is also like [28:30] a working mother's efficiency. I, you know, order groceries and sushi for my son and my commercial [28:35] breaks. I mean, there's just a way that a working mother's brain functions where we are constantly [28:41] on output, constantly. They'll study our brains when we're dead. What is sort of your guiding [28:47] light in terms of governing in that way? [28:51] That's so true. It's funny. I don't think people get what working mothers, what's happening in your [28:57] life? I remember leaving a House Armed Services Committee meeting because I got a call from my son [29:02] and my, you know, he never calls me. So I'm like, uh-oh. So I leave the committee hearing and I go, [29:06] you know, what's up? And he said, um, can you pick me up? And he said, where are you? He goes, [29:12] at school. I said, I'm, I'm in Washington. And he said, oh, I said, I've been here for four days. [29:22] And like, I'm sure for your son, there were other adults. Like my son will call me to order him [29:28] lunch and there'll be two other adults at home. Like my, you know, my husband and the babysitter. [29:32] And he'll be like, yeah, but you just know what I want. Yeah, I know. And there's something about [29:37] being a mom that you're like, oh. Correct. And you always pick up the phone. They also know that [29:40] like, no matter what you're doing, you pick up. So like, I wonder if you're governing like that, [29:45] you know, as something to prove as someone who's underestimated, or if that's just how like [29:49] working mothers are wired for outputs. I think because I was so connected to people as I was running, [29:56] um, with just speaking to thousands of people all the time, the being underestimated almost fired me [30:04] up a little bit. I'm like, all right, I got the numbers. I know where this is going. Keep talking, [30:08] you know, that kind of thing. So, so there is a little bit of that, but I, I totally, [30:13] I'd love your Dave analogy because I remember the, the biggest compliment I've gotten in the past [30:18] couple of weeks is somebody said, you know, what's really interesting about working with you is [30:24] people say things like, we can't do that. And, and they even sometimes say like a, a weird reason [30:32] why. And you just always kind of say, well, why don't we then do it this way? Or why can't we do [30:38] that? Or can you just go back and check that again? And they said, and then we do it. And I think [30:44] there is that sense, um, that you've got to get this stuff done. And I, I guess maybe being a mom [30:50] helps because, you know, we've all negotiated with like toddlers when they're like, no, no. And [30:56] you're like, yes, yeah, we're going to do, get those shoes on. Right. So there is just this sense [31:02] of like, we're going to figure this out because we don't really have an option here. Like I got to [31:07] figure out how to get you in your clothes and get you to school because I got to get to work. So we're [31:11] just going to get this done one way or the other. [31:13] Mm-hmm. Like how much strength do you derive from your female friendships with, um, Governor [31:19] Spanberger, with Senator Slotkin, with the women that are sort of walking a similar path? [31:24] Oh, it's, it's amazing. Um, in fact, I, I just, uh, Alyssa, when I was down at the labor [31:31] meeting and right before I was going to go on, she kind of came rolling in and, and, you [31:36] know, just like, Hey. And I mean, what a, you know, kind of a funny thing to bond. I'm about [31:43] to go speak before the labor conference and my good friend is too. So that's fun. And [31:47] then we were texting each other afterwards. So there is this, this sense that somebody [31:51] kind of gets, you're in a weird world and somebody else gets it. And it's great to have [31:55] that. I, I really, I mean, it makes me feel like maybe we are all in a video game. The fact [32:02] that, you know, of all the people and all the gin joints and all the world, that the two [32:06] people running in the only two governors races, the only two statewide races in 2025 were myself [32:16] and Abigail Spanberger, who had been my roommate in, you know, the house. She's the oldest of [32:21] three girls. I'm the oldest of three girls. Uh, she was born in Jersey. I was born in Virginia. [32:26] You know, it all lined up and I'm like, man, how lucky am I that, you know, again, doing [32:31] this sort of weird thing, sort of unique thing that I, I actually know the one other person [32:37] in the world who's doing the same thing and, and, you know, and know her well enough to [32:42] trust her and call her and tell her all the things that are going wrong and what is she [32:46] doing and how she doing it and all that. It's really amazing to have these women, uh, who [32:54] also beyond just kind of doing these things are also, you know, we all come from this national [33:00] security background and in the military, you work as a, a team, you know, you know, you [33:06] need other people to get the mission accomplished. And that wasn't the feeling when we got into [33:13] Congress. I remember saying to, to another member of Congress, oh, are we all going to [33:18] come together and talk about this and get this done? And he looked at me and he said, oh, I, [33:23] you know, I gotta be honest, this place, it's every man for himself. And that's just not [33:27] how we functioned. I also think coming from a different background and not being in Congress [33:32] your whole life, I think we really understood that we were one of 435 members. A lot of people [33:37] couldn't even say who their Congress person was. So it was really working together that [33:41] we were able to get stuff done. Um, and that seemed to be a different vibe. So those women [33:48] in particular have just been such great people to work with and to have my back and, um, to [33:56] bounce things off of. So it's really, it's been amazing. [34:00] One of the hallmarks, and I don't know if it's chicken or the egg, but, but being national [34:05] security folks, none of you is reflexively partisan. And I don't want to use moderate [34:11] as a sort of the, the mushy political sense of, of moderation, but, um, obviously I was [34:17] in, in the other party. And so I, I, I get, I've been smeared as a moderate for years. It used [34:22] to be Rhino, but whatever that means politically, I mean, I think your sensibilities are, um, [34:27] policy wise, relatively moderate. And, and I wonder how you think the democratic party [34:33] is doing in understanding that in a lot of places, that's the only way to win. [34:37] Yeah, there's this sense. And, and I remember talking to Chrissy Houlihan a couple months [34:43] ago about just, you know, moving forward on some house armed services thing and who she [34:46] was working with and I was interested in, and, and, you know, and, and that same sense [34:51] of, you know, I don't think any of us from the military come from this place where we [34:56] feel like we're very partisan. I mean, most of the people I worked with in my squadron, [35:00] I couldn't have even told you what their political party was. And so I think it's, it's sort of [35:06] that focus on getting stuff done, but I actually see a lot of that in some of the newer members. [35:12] I think you're seeing this breakage from the political parties. I think things are being [35:16] realigned right now. And so even, um, some of the people that are, are more to the left [35:24] of the party, if they say good ideas, they connect with people in my state. If they're [35:29] a fighter, they'll connect. So I recently saw a weird poll in my state of all Democrats [35:34] and the two most popular people, and they surveyed all the Jersey Democrats and some national Democrats, [35:39] the two most popular people, 80% plus approval rating were myself and Bernie [35:46] Sanders, which, you know, it's kind of trippy. And yet I can tell you that, you know, most [35:52] people on the street aren't going to say, Oh, you know what? [35:54] And I'm center left or I'm this artificial label. It's artificial. What they want to see [36:00] is somebody who's taking on the status quo, who's sort of, again, not to harp on it, but [36:04] to your Dave point, just calling out some of the basic stuff and saying, let's just get [36:08] this done. Like everybody knows this is a problem. So let's find a solution that we can all live [36:15] with and go. And I think that's connecting right now. And I, I think that if the party gets caught [36:23] up in fighting itself, I think a lot of that's an artificial thing that is really pushed by right-wing [36:30] media. Those divides are constantly being exploited. I saw it a lot in my campaign instead of really [36:37] focusing on, Hey, look, I'm trying to drive down your costs. Mom, Donnie's trying to drive down your [36:43] cost. Andy Craig's trying to drive down. I mean, you know, every corner of the party, [36:47] we're trying to drive down your cost. Yeah. And there's no plan to do that across the aisle. [36:53] So, you know, it's, it's, it's an interesting dynamic right now. [36:56] I mean, I feel like Democrats too have become better at resisting the false choice. Like I feel [37:02] like Trump 1.0 Democrats struggled with whether or not to fight Trump or deal with kitchen table [37:08] issues. Those fights seem to be over. They seem to understand that the voters want you to fight. [37:12] And that often means fight Trump's placement of ICE agents in places where their, you know, [37:17] leashes are so long, they'll kill Americans in the streets of Minneapolis. And they want [37:21] you to make things cheaper. I mean, we should be better at covering Trump. People should be [37:24] better at confronting him. But does that, does that ring true to you? [37:31] What I don't do in general is I don't throw gratuitous punches at Trump. So I remember during [37:38] my campaign, somebody wanted me to come on an interview or a podcast and talk about the video [37:44] where he's flying and he's dumping poo on No Kingdom's protests. Oh yeah. Yes. And I had no interest. [37:50] I'm like, that's the least of my problems is some AI video. It's just, no, I'm not doing that. I'm [37:55] running to drive down costs for New Jerseyans. If you want me to come on your podcast and talk about [38:00] his crypto accounts and how, you know, the UAE paid him off to lift some sanctions, sure. [38:05] But if you want me to talk about some weird video or the East wing of the White House or [38:11] the Rose Garden, like I'm not doing that. You know, I'm looking at fights that are systemic [38:16] and problematic and driving up costs for people. I'm not looking at problems of a patio off the [38:22] White House that a good bulldozer can deal with in a week. What I know, I'm driving and what I think [38:28] some people have really come to terms with is if you're going to attack Trump, you should be [38:35] connecting it to how what he is doing is harming people. I think what's been different in this [38:42] cycle is he's harming so many people. The tariffs, I mean, everybody knows that's driving your costs up [38:48] and it's, there's no way he can say your grocery store prices aren't high because we all go to [38:53] the grocery store, right? It's just nonsensical. This Iranian war, all the ways I feel about it [39:01] and, you know, our international relationships and the 50 years that we've built them up and how we [39:08] never fight alone. Those are my thoughts. But I can tell you that the thought I share with every [39:12] single New Jerseyan is gas is too high. [39:15] I appreciate the sieve. I think I call it a sieve through which I push Trump stories. If no one is [39:21] going to die, I try to, you know, sort of get to it in a minute. And so I know what you're saying. [39:26] The things that cause outrage and that can sort of run three, four, five news cycles, but maybe [39:32] don't threaten people's lives or livelihoods or stories that can wait until Democrats are in power. [39:39] I mean, on that point of power, do you, how do you see Democrats' prospects in the midterms? And do you [39:43] think the elections will be fair? [39:45] I think we should win the House. I'm hopeful for the Senate. I don't have as good of a feel [39:52] for that. I come from the House, as you know. The elections, I'm very concerned about them. As [39:59] I mentioned, I've been asked for voter roll data by the president. That's one of the ways we're in [40:04] court right now. He has sued me for those voter roll data, that voter roll data, and I've refused [40:10] to turn it over. I assume that, you know, Abbott turned it over, Texas turned it over, which means [40:18] that he has a lot of personal identifying data for people in Texas, which, yes, is a red state, [40:24] but there are blue areas of it and blue congressional districts. So I'm not sure why he asked for that [40:30] data. We are doing everything we can at the state level to make your ability to vote fair and [40:37] unrestricted and that you're not going to be afraid to go to the polls. We have mail-in votes, which, [40:41] of course, he's attacking probably so he can scare people away from polls. We have early in-person [40:46] voting. We're coming up with some different ways to try to make it even easier to vote. And, you [40:51] know, with concerns specifically about our largely Latino areas and ICE agents trying to go there to [40:57] keep voters away, I am very concerned that there are other states, Republican states, who are going [41:03] to make it harder and harder and harder to vote safely for people and try to impose a real cost on [41:09] people. And so will it be fair everywhere? I'm very worried about it. I, you know, we'll see as we go [41:18] forward. But we've seen different chicanery taking place a little bit. I assume there were just [41:23] different ways they were testing to do that. But I think in your blue stage, you'll see, you know, [41:31] we can take into court. We can largely run a fair election. It is a state purview, so we should be [41:35] successful in court. But I'm worried about other states. Virginia followed California with new maps. [41:42] I know it's a little harder in New Jersey, but what is your feeling about what California and Virginia [41:47] have done? And are you looking at it for New Jersey? So New Jersey would have to pass through the [41:54] legislature, I think, twice a constitutional change, you know, a vote for the constitutional change to get [42:00] on the ballot. So we can't get it on the ballot for this year. And, you know, unfortunately, I think [42:08] you have to fight fire with fire. I don't like it. I don't think anybody likes it. But I think at the [42:14] end of the day, if you are seeing the president try to rig the elections through Texas, possibly through [42:20] Florida, through other states, you've got to fight for democracy and sometimes in some weird ways. But [42:30] we've got to be able to stand toe to toe here to create a fair election. If we stood by and simply [42:38] allowed these states to change in, you know, midstream to change all their districts and create [42:47] these unfair districts and artificially take the House, you know, that would just be a huge blow [42:53] to democracy. But, you know, I think going forward, because we've been able to go toe to toe with this, [43:03] it hasn't had Trump take on a longer term strategy of pushing even more states to go further and further. [43:10] You served with Eric Swalwell. He was summarily run out of the governor's race in Congress when [43:19] revelations became public of his alleged sexual assault and sexual misconduct. Democrats seemed to [43:27] respond to that in a way that very much had the centering of the victims in mind in a way that the [43:32] Epstein story, I think, has trained everybody, the media, Democrats and Republicans, if you include [43:39] Thomas Massey and even some of the MAGA-friendly members to center that issue around the victims. [43:45] Is that something that you hear about in your sort of meetings or interactions with your constituents? [43:55] People, I think, are very upset over the Epstein files. And there is the sense that they want them [44:02] released. But I think there also is this real disgust at all of the people who acted in this way and who [44:13] were involved in this way. All the opportunities that someone could have said, there are teenagers [44:19] being trafficked here. And yet both seem to feel above the law and that, you know, somehow that wasn't [44:31] beyond the pale. And I think for those of us who have been teenage girls, who have teenage girls, [44:38] you know, I'm a child of the 90s. You know, I graduated in the 90s. I grew up, I guess, child of the 80s, [44:42] maybe, you know, I always felt like an adult and like I had control. But you look at like [44:46] Monica Lewinsky and you look at, I mean, Kavanaugh's description, that was my high school experience, [44:53] right? A bunch of parties when people's parents weren't home with a lot of alcohol, probably a lot [44:59] going on and people in non-consent situations. And it's, you know, I'm sort of appalled that that was [45:10] how that was. And I even watched that movie, Sixteen Candles, and think, wait, that's state rape. [45:15] That movie that I loved in high school, that's state rape, you know? So all of these things, [45:21] you're just, I think we thought we had moved into a better place, teaching kids about consent [45:25] and making sure. And then to see that that still seems to be going on everywhere is, [45:35] it's, it's so defeating. I mean, that's the conversations I hear from my constituents is, [45:41] is, you know, is everybody just sleeping with people that work for them? And I think coming [45:45] from the Navy, when you have this hierarchy and it's, you know, there's a huge power dynamic of [45:51] the people that are working for you in a chain of command, that's, that's also so offensive. [45:58] You know, I've spoken to some parents like, gosh, my kid works on the Hill. You know, [46:01] I'm going to talk to them about this. And that's the downside. The upside is, I will say, [46:08] in speaking to young people and speaking to their parents, there seems to be a much more, [46:16] people seem to feel much more empowered to come forward with that in a way that I always thought, [46:24] because, you know, I was in the Navy, so there was sexual harassment and stuff like that at that [46:27] time. I never felt like I could tell anyone. I felt like that would sound weak or that I was a whiner. [46:32] I just had to somehow figure out how to deal with it and rebuff it. And, you know, [46:37] I had all these tactics like use humor, don't be alone with that guy or whatever. [46:42] But I do think now people feel confident to come forward and say, I told him to stop, [46:49] he didn't, and I need someone to handle this. Not everyone, of course, and it's never acceptable, [46:54] but I do feel, you know, if I'm trying to find some light in the tunnel here, [46:58] I do feel like there is a much greater sense that this is not, and to your point of really having [47:04] a victim-centered approach, this is not your fault. If you are being sexually harassed, [47:09] that is not your fault. And that is, you know, not your problem. It's the perpetrator's problem, [47:15] and you should come forward. And I feel like in many spaces that's occurring. I don't want to [47:23] overstate it because I'm sure it's not in a lot of spaces, but I've seen more about it. [47:27] On the same age, we're sort of the suck it up generation, and it does feel like younger women [47:32] have taken a step up the ladder. And to your point, it's not perfect, but it's probably better [47:39] from the way it was. I guess the last thing I wanted to ask you about was how much of the [47:46] groundbreaking, being in the military, breaking barriers there, not that you were the first, [47:54] but that you traveled a path that wasn't necessarily expected. How much of that do you carry with you, [48:01] and how much are you just in the moment with your instincts and with your own support network and your [48:07] own sensibilities as a mom and a public servant doing what you think is right? You know, what is your [48:12] sort of day-in-the-life mindset? I carry so much more of it with me than I thought I did. [48:20] So, you know, when you come up in a certain way, I don't think you realize anything's different about [48:26] it. And for many years, I don't think I really realized it. But I do now, maybe because you [48:34] campaign and you explore why you're doing this, because you have to tell your constituents why you're [48:38] running and what your values are and what motivates you. And so I've had to do a lot of [48:43] exploration on that. And there is so much of just how the military does things. It's very proactive. [48:51] I always joke, you know, if you're standing on a hill getting shot at, you don't have to take the [48:55] perfect or the best way off that hill, but you better get your butt off that hill, right? So there's [49:00] a sense of moving through a crisis, that you need momentum, that you can't stand still. If things [49:05] aren't going right, you have to come up with a solution. You have to execute it. If that doesn't [49:12] work, then you have to pivot and find that way to carry through. It's a leadership, you know, going to [49:19] the Naval Academy, it was a training in leadership. There was this constant training. And I wish I could [49:25] tell you that I was this great student in leadership. I think I rolled my eyes at half of it, [49:30] but then you find that you were brainwashed through it. So I often told a story and sometimes [49:36] I still tell this stump story about, you know, ships running your ground and everyone on the bridge, [49:41] knowing it's going to happen and no one's saying anything. And that was trained to, you know, [49:45] that was taught to us in leadership class. And this idea that if you're the kind of person [49:51] that, you know, when I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is, then nobody's going to come to [49:55] you with problems. Nobody's going to give you real insights and you're going to run aground pretty soon. [49:59] So, you know, creating this atmosphere where you don't shut down, people are telling you things [50:05] you don't want to hear is critical. And this sense that you have a responsibility to the people you [50:13] serve. In the army, they say leaders eat last. And I see this in other former military members who are [50:21] in public service. You carry that with you, this sense that I'm not just sitting here because, [50:27] you know, it's fun to be governor. I'm sitting here because people are relying on me and I have [50:32] a responsibility to those people. And if I don't get this right, then they're going to suffer and [50:36] that's going to be on me. And so when I say I'm in office because I think government can change [50:41] people's lives, you know, again and again, I trace it in my own family. I talk about poor government that [50:47] led to the Great Depression and my grandpa losing everything. And then getting a good union job and [50:54] having a good pension and getting into a good house that was built by the WPA and because he was a [51:01] veteran and all these ways government put my family squarely into the middle class. And I hear those [51:07] stories again and again and again from my community, from people my age, not hearing those stories from [51:14] younger people. And that's what we want to create here. Governor, it's a pleasure to have this much time [51:19] with you. Thank you so much for this time. Well, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed [51:24] it. I appreciate it. And congrats. I think the podcasting world is not an easy one to break into [51:31] and you are just... People just sniff out the bullshit. I mean, that's, you know, we go deep [51:37] in ways that make me sweat asking the questions. So thank you for answering all of them. [51:40] No, I like this format. It's not like the clip, right? It's like really getting into it. [51:46] The podcast listener is like so on to you and people come up and they say, oh, and [51:51] they listen to it. They internalize it. Not everyone will do it. So thank you so much. [51:56] Well, thank you and have a great one. You too. Take care. Thanks.