Environmental Conservation: Interview with Aisha Khan

[00:00:00] Anisha Natarajan: Welcome to the Global Voice Series at the World Bank Spring Meet. I'm Anisha Natarajan. I'm an editor and anchor at CNBC India. I host a weekly show called Urban Reality, which focuses on cities and sustainability. I'm so excited to be here in Washington, D.C., where climate change has taken a center stage at the Spring Meet. We're talking today about the melting Himalayan glaciers and that impact on people, economy and the environment. And I have with me a very special guest from Pakistan who actually has worked with mountain communities and can give us first-hand insight into what's going on, how real is the threat of melting ice in the Himalayan glaciers. Let me welcome Aisha Khan. Aisha, thank you for joining us today. Aisha is the Executive Director for the Civil Society Coalition for Climate Change in Pakistan. She's also the CEO of the Mountain and Glacier Organization. And all you people who have, you know, queued in today to this program, please do post in your questions. If you've got a concern about the melting glaciers, Aisha is here to take them as well, and we'll try and address them. Aisha, first and foremost, you've been working on climate change for the longest time. How did you even get into something like this? [00:01:26] Aisha Khan: It's interesting that you should ask that question, because I just happened to go on a trek deep into the mountains to the base camp of K2. It was never my idea to get involved in environmental development or conservation work, but what I saw there, what I saw of the degradation of the environment and how I saw the plight of the community, it intrigued me to do something about it. And so I started first with small steps in trying to do cleanup campaigns and bringing trash that was left behind by other trekkers. And then I got involved with the communities. And I realized that if you don't provide mountain communities with basic amenities, they will degrade the environment. They will exploit the environment because their survival depends on that. So I started working in the social development sector work to build the resilience of mountain communities. And then one thing led to another, and it's been 20 years, and I'm still doing the same work, and still as involved, as engaged, and as motivated as I was when I first went into the mountain areas. [00:02:30] Anisha Natarajan: And probably more today, because the impact of, you know, the Himalayan glaciers melting is so much more visible today. You're working with one of the villagers in the mountains in the Karakoram range in Pakistan. In your presentation, you spoke about something which resonated deeply with me coming from India, where you said that, you know, any climate change impact is felt the most by the women of that community. And I want you to highlight that for our audience here, especially with your examples on how the entire social and economic status of women changes with the changing climate. [00:03:08] Aisha Khan: You know, it impacts the women the most because women are often marginalized. They're not part of the decision making, but it's actually they who handle the natural resources. They are responsible for the production and the consumption of natural resources. Unfortunately, all the labor they put in is not monetized, and without being economically empowered, you never have a voice in the say of how things should be done. So I feel very much for these women because I've watched them over the last 20 years, how they plot uphill to fetch water, how they stay awake at nights to irrigate their fields, So women, and I think their capacities can be developed, but you need to invest in the human capital, and that's, you know, one of the things that we do when we work with communities. I think that they must have 40% representation of women in this community organizations that are formed and are responsible for taking decisions on how things can be done in the community. And what I notice now is a change in the social dynamics. The women now have social capital, they've come to recognize that if their village needs development, the men need to put them first. So they get the women to approach us and they think it has a better chance of getting the development benefits from the... [00:04:37] Anisha Natarajan: So you made it mandatory for women to be part of the social and economic change, which is happening. [00:04:41] Aisha Khan: And we engage women in labor, and we pay them directly also. So it has empowered them, it has built their confidence, and what I notice most is a sense of self-worth, a sense of self-esteem, which is, you know, very encouraging to see. [00:04:58] Anisha Natarajan: Yeah. Climate change now, you know, we look at that number, big number, that two-thirds of the Himalayan glaciers would have melted by 2100, which is not too far away. And then there are, of course, the disbelievers who say climate change is not happening. You work with the community and you can actually see that communities which had a water surplus today have a water shortage, and that's become a priority over health, sanitation, education, all the other priorities for these communities, isn't it? [00:05:31] Aisha Khan: You know, I think there are very few people today who don't believe that climate change is happening because its impacts have become very palpable. My work further corroborates what science is saying now because for the last 20 years, I've not only seen water shortages in mountain communities, I've seen changes that are taking place on the glaciers as well. As I trek in the mountains myself, I've seen glacier lakes that are formed over there. And you see evidently that there is a shortage of water because 20 years ago, when I first went in and I asked the communities what were their development priorities, they stated education as the first requirement, health as the second, and water-related infrastructure as the third. Today, without fail, you can go to any community and that order is reversed. They would ask for water-related infrastructure and then health and education is their last priority. So it's a clear indication that, you know, the water patterns are changing and with it, the needs of the community are shifting. [00:06:34] Anisha Natarajan: And water is the lifeline, not just of the mountain communities, but even cities and countries like Pakistan and India are staring at a possibility of running dry because we are extracting so much groundwater and we are also facing the situation where we have melting ice of the Himalayan glaciers and we could probably lose the life force of some of our most important rivers, the Indus, the Brahmaputra and the Ganges. Very interesting statement that you made earlier and I'm going to go back to that, you know, this is the Hindukush region. It starts from Afghanistan and runs right up to Myanmar. It also is home to one of the poorest communities in the world. We all need to get together and you mentioned something which completely resonated with me. You said, you know, nature is borderless. It does not recognize geographical or political borders and we all have to come together and work on this mega climate change problem that is staring at South Asia. You think we can, looking at the current situation between our countries, you think that we can have these dialogues rise above everything else? [00:07:41] Aisha Khan: I think nature will probably force us to do that if the political realities are keeping us apart. But sooner or later, I think wise men in government will come to realize that this is not something that can be handled in isolation. And if the people, put people at the center of this conversation, they'll realize that ecological goods and services have to flow through natural ecological corridors. And if we don't do that, it will be at the risk of destroying lives. In all the South Asian countries, because it's not India, Pakistan, Afghanistan. There are other countries in the region as well. Each is connected to the other. The entire region and all the people who live in it, their lives are interconnected. So if we want to put people first, then we will have to find a way to overcome these differences. And there may be political disputes, there may be territorial disputes, but we can put them on the side and we can at least converge and start a conversation on issues that are non-controversial. And, you know, water is one. Air quality is another thing. Air also knows no boundaries. And it's a huge problem in all our countries now. The quality of air that we are breathing is toxic. So I think there are lots of areas in which collaboration is possible and civil society can play a very important role. Because civil society can engage in soft diplomacy and then the governments can come in and pick it up where they think it's possible to take the agenda forward. But we need to break this ground and we need to sit down and talk about this. [00:09:17] Anisha Natarajan: You know, it's so interesting that amidst all of us, Nepal's affected, Afghanistan's affected, Pakistan, India, we're all affected. There's also this beautiful country, Bhutan. Yes. And they're actually carbon negative right now. But they're seeing climate change because of all that's going around in other countries, isn't it? So civil society, like you rightly said, how do you, you know, we're sitting in this situation also because it's the lifestyle of the rich which leads to carbon footprint and affects the poorest communities the most. How do we bring about the behavioural change in civil society and people? [00:09:54] Aisha Khan: I think the media can play a very important role and the media is not really living up to that role. They're also consumed by other agendas. Oh, politics all the time. The breaking news, the politics, the economic developments, etc. If they start highlighting this concern and taking it to the people and there's a science policy gap as well because science talks in technical terms and policy doesn't understand that. Yeah. And there's also the knowing-doing gap. Governments know what needs to be done. But again, it's not a priority with them. It's not a priority. Because they live in urban centres and they always have enough food on the table and the ambient air quality is always comfortable. So climate change is not having a direct impact on their lives. But it's the poor and the vulnerable who get affected the most. Their voices can best be communicated at the centre through the media and through civil society organisations. Of course, the academia also plays a major role because they have evidence-based research. And that actually informs us and gives us the strength to take our conversations and our arguments further. So everyone has to play a role. And I think we're all in this together and we all need to unite and create some kind of a pressure group that will force governments to do the right thing at the right time. [00:11:12] Anisha Natarajan: At the right time and the right time is now. It's now. In fact, there is this entire discussion about carbon tax, but we have democracies, which is, you know, it's a tough, hard political decision to take. Do you think the time is now ripe for everybody to bell the cat and say, hey, we are not going to subsidise fossil fuel. We will now probably have take the strong step of imposing a carbon tax. [00:11:35] Aisha Khan: I think the private sector and the government need to have a conversation, because these are things on which you give and take. They're trade-offs. So you need to kind of incentivise them and how can they benefit as well. Because at the end of the day, everything is about the economy and private sector is about making money. So you have to keep that into consideration and you have to engage in conversations with them in which it's a win-win for everyone. [00:12:02] Anisha Natarajan: All right. [00:12:03] Aisha Khan: It can't be a win-win for only one side. [00:12:05] Anisha Natarajan: You need to have growth. Our economies need growth. Our people need to come out of their poverty and, you know, look at a brighter future. That's important too. [00:12:13] Aisha Khan: And you know, you gave the example of Bhutan who talked about the gross national happiness. Yes. So we need to change the way in which we think about development and progress and prosperity. It can be with lesser things with different things, you know, shared prosperity. [00:12:29] Anisha Natarajan: Do you think the World Bank is working on a report and that hot data will probably be a good starting point to galvanise the region's governments? I think so. [00:12:40] Aisha Khan: I think it will catch their imagination at least because it's come out with two, three reports in the recent past. And one is about the South Asia hotspots. So that talks about, you know, the climate-induced migrations and that talks about, you know, the security concerns and that talks about the demographic shifts and all the associated social and economic dynamics attached to it. So I think, yes, if governments are intelligent and they think long term, they should pay attention to it because it gives you a very good idea of what the future awaits us or what kind of future awaits us. [00:13:17] Anisha Natarajan: We don't want to, you know, 20 years later say we wish we had done a lot more. Before it's too late, we really need to seize this opportunity and make a dramatic change in the way we live and the government policies as well. [00:13:30] Aisha Khan: I don't think a dramatic change is on its way from the way we see things happening. We can hope for it. I think, you know, we have another maybe five to ten years and by then everybody will understand that something needs to be done. [00:13:44] Anisha Natarajan: Needs to be done. I think the conversations are increasing. In fact, at the spring meet, climate change has been at the center stage of conversations, not at the sidelines. The World Bank and the International Monetary Fund has made it one of the big pieces of their spring meet, which is to review the work. [00:13:59] Aisha Khan: We say it's an existential threat, but I think right now we don't actually feel that it's going to happen to us. We think it's about another, you know, alien planet where these things are happening. It is not an alien planet. Yeah. But we don't have the option of planet B, so if we want to save the planet, I think we all need to work together. [00:14:17] Anisha Natarajan: Aisha Khan, it's been such a pleasure having you with me on this conversation around the melting glaciers, the Himalayan region and how it's going to affect the South Asian economy, people and the environment. To all of you, my audience, thank you very much for being part of this. And, of course, our hashtag is WBGMeetings. You can, of course, leave any questions that you want, and we will try and get back to you with some answers as well. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Aisha Khan, who has been working with the mountain communities of Pakistan, which are seeing dramatic changes in their livelihoods and the way they live, especially with water shortage. This is not a crisis which is going to go away without all of us coming together and taking some actions.