Elon Musk's testimony gets heated in trial

[0:00] And the trial over OpenAI's move from non-profit to multi-billion dollar company is getting heated. [0:05] Elon Musk is accusing OpenAI's co-founders of double-crossing him [0:10] and stealing the charity they founded together by turning OpenAI into a for-profit company after he left. [0:17] But OpenAI says Musk did know about the company's future plans and only sued after failing to become CEO. [0:23] Now Musk is clashing with the company's lawyers on the witness stand, [0:26] accusing them of asking misleading questions. [0:28] ABC's contributor, Google Tech Policy fellow Mike Muse is here for more. [0:32] Mike, you say this is framed as a legal story, but really it's a tech business story. Why? [0:37] It is because you look at the origins of artificial intelligence. [0:41] Artificial intelligence has been around since the 1980s up into the early 2000s. [0:45] And it's been seen more on the back end from businesses and also from researchers. [0:49] So you would see it in institutions like MIT, really trying to discover what is deep learning, what is machine learning. [0:55] You saw it again in the back end of companies like Google using it for machine learning dynamics. [1:00] It wasn't until you got to the 2010s where you began to see a shift. [1:04] And you began to see a shift in these companies beginning to what's called doing deep learning and deep knowledge that allows it to become in the consumer-friendly product that we know today as generative AI. [1:15] But Diane, when you begin to make that shift from academia to back end use to front end consumer use, you need more compute. [1:24] And when you need more compute, that takes more investment, that takes more capital, i.e. more money. [1:29] And also, too, as this began to grow the sector business-wise, companies began to poach other talented engineers in order to grow and scale their companies. [1:40] And so then you see OpenAI come in as a nonprofit research arm kind of coming on academia. [1:46] But once they saw the shift in pivot, they knew they needed more money to invest in microprocessor chips and data centers. [1:53] They needed more investments. In order to make the investment worthwhile for donors, they needed to convert over to a for-profit. [2:00] And so that is how we got here. And that was the evolution of artificial intelligence. [2:04] I think that's an important part of this story as our viewers are watching this trial. [2:08] As a tech guy, what do you think when you listen to Musk's testimony? [2:13] Anything surprise you so far about how this trial is playing out? [2:16] Yeah, some of the things that surprised me how it was playing out is how Musk even recognized that the need for OpenAI to possibly go for profit. [2:25] He was aware of it. As you mentioned in your opening statement, that the tension began when Musk didn't become CEO. [2:32] But then also, too, were evidence that was admitted into this trial where Musk was even considering maybe moving OpenAI into Tesla. [2:39] So there was a recognition that you needed more investments and that you needed more money in order to grow the business. [2:45] And I think for me, that was going to be a very poignant part of the case. [2:49] As part of this lawsuit, he wants OpenAI to go back to being a nonprofit. [2:53] He wants billions of dollars to go into that nonprofit arm. [2:57] And he wants leadership changes at the top. [2:59] What will that mean if it happens to the AI landscape in general? [3:04] It makes the competitive landscape much more appealing for the competitors of OpenAI. [3:10] And we're talking about Anthropic, who has a Claude service. [3:14] We're talking about Google that has Gemini. [3:16] And then we actually are actually talking about Elon Musk. [3:19] Elon's own AI company, right? [3:20] Yes, Elon Musk has OpenAI. [3:23] Excuse me. [3:23] He has XAI, which is a similar competitor to that. [3:26] And so that really is the question. [3:28] Is he doing this to eliminate the threat of OpenAI in order for his company to come into place? [3:34] And in the courtroom, I found was something really interesting where the lawyers for OpenAI, they asked him, they said, hey, of all your businesses that you use, Elon, are they nonprofit? [3:45] And he said, no. [3:46] And he said, but aren't they used for social good? [3:48] And then he said, yes. [3:49] So really examining and questioning that you can create a company that is for a profit that does benefit the social structure and goodness of humanity into what they're trying to solve for. [4:00] He's off the stand now, but Elon could be called back. [4:04] What are you watching for as this trial moves on now? [4:07] What I'm looking for is now when OpenAI begins to call their star witness, and that is going to be Sam Altman. [4:13] And I think what's going to be interesting is how is the jury going to deliberate and how are they going to hear this case? [4:19] Diane, you and I, we talked about the previous cases when you had other tech companies that was on trial for harm that were done to children. [4:25] Jurors can relate to that, right? [4:27] They want, if they're a parent or they have a young child in their life, they want to make sure that young child is protected and safe. [4:32] OpenAI is different. [4:34] Most of Americans and society has used ChatGPT. [4:38] They have used possibly Claude, right? [4:40] And so they see the benefit of it. [4:41] They understand it. [4:42] They may have a fear about displacement of the workforce, but in a more 9 out of 10, they tend to lead in to like ChatGPT. [4:50] And so I think that is going to be a really important part. [4:53] And can Sam Altman drive that narrative that they are doing good and that they needed more money in order for jurors to use a product more efficiently? [5:01] Interesting. [5:02] All right, Mike. [5:02] Fascinating. [5:03] Thank you. [5:04] Yes.