Elon Musk vs. OpenAI: Testy exchanges fill day 2 of trial

[0:00] Elon Musk back on the stand in his suit against OpenAI. He says they strayed from their original [0:05] non-profit mission. He's also saying a lot of other things. CNN's AI correspondent Hadass Gold [0:10] at the trial in Oakland with the very latest. Good morning to you. Hey John, we are entering [0:18] a Musk's seventh hour of testimony and this is blockbuster trial against OpenAI that could [0:22] completely change the future of the AI landscape and could potentially change the future for the [0:26] chat GPT maker OpenAI. Each side yesterday spent their time questioning Musk and trying to prove [0:32] their side. Whether he was deceived when he donated $38 million to OpenAI and then they [0:37] turned their non-profit to having a for-profit subsidiary or whether he always wanted OpenAI [0:42] to go for profit in some way but that he left when he couldn't control it anymore and that this [0:47] lawsuit is just about him trying to bring down a competitor since he has his own AI company [0:50] XAI. At one point yesterday Elon Musk told the court I was a fool. He says I needed to make sure [0:57] that OpenAI would go in the right direction and I was providing almost all the money. He says I was [1:00] a fool. I gave them free funding to create a startup. Another piece of evidence that Elon Musk's [1:05] lawyers introduced was a series of messages between him and OpenAI CEO Sam Altman in 2022. [1:10] After a Microsoft investment OpenAI was filed at $20 billion and Musk told Altman what was going on [1:15] here and Altman responds I agree this feels bad. Musk told the court that that interaction he said [1:20] it felt like a bait and switch. But on OpenAI's cross-examination which started yesterday their [1:25] attorneys went to Musk and said hey here's some emails here's some meeting notes where you say [1:30] that OpenAI should probably go for profit. This is the only way they're going to get enough money to [1:33] run all of that really expensive compute to be able to compete properly. They even showed meeting notes [1:38] where he directed some of his executives to actually go and register a for-profit corporation. [1:44] Musk told the court that in some cases he just didn't recall those conversations and other times he [1:48] says he wasn't opposed to a for-profit subsidiary as long as it was a capped profit. There were some fireworks [1:54] in court. I don't think Elon Musk is used to being talked to in the way that an attorney might cross [1:58] examine a witness on the stand. There were some tense moments at one point OpenAI's attorney was [2:03] trying to ask Elon Musk just yes or no questions and Elon Musk was saying you can't answer these [2:07] with yes or no questions. He said your questions are not simple they're designed to trick me and then [2:12] he made the classic fallacy of have you stopped beating your wife comparison but the judge was not going [2:17] to go there and she cut him off completely. Today Elon Musk is going to be back on the stand. We expect [2:22] another two hours or so of cross-examination and redirect. He is definitely one of the star [2:28] witnesses in this case. This case is going to go on for another couple of weeks and we're expecting [2:32] to hear some of the biggest names in tech including Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella and then OpenAI CEO [2:37] Sam Altman will come up in the next coming weeks. Joining me now is CNN contributor and host of the [2:41] podcasts on and pivot Kara Swisher. Kara I've been eager to talk to you because OpenAI's lawyers [2:48] they argue that Musk is just he's just bitter over how successful the company became after he left [2:54] the board. I mean do you think Musk has a legit argument here? No I mean he did initially I was [3:02] around during that time and they did start the company to put you know to fob off Google and [3:08] Facebook and other companies who they thought would dominate but it changed pretty quickly when [3:12] they realized what was going on and I think it's just I think they're correct he's bitter that he sort [3:17] of flounced out of there and he very clearly signed the papers saying he was leaving. He wanted control [3:22] they said no he left and thought they were going to fail and then they didn't fail and so it's it is [3:28] bitter sort of party of one I think they're accurate in that conception of it. This idea of a personal [3:33] maybe grudge match for Musk because there was a lot of testy exchanges today between Musk and OpenAI [3:38] as lawyer I mean the judge even had to intervene saying things like can we just stop and have people [3:45] stop talking all over each other lets everybody calm down I mean obviously it was obvious in the [3:51] courtroom. Yeah I mean in that case the lawyer won because one of the things Ellie Honig talked about [3:58] is that these billionaires aren't used to being questioned and questioned strongly because everyone [4:03] around them agrees with them violently and so he's not used to that of someone pushing back and so [4:08] he had he's not he hasn't done it in years because everyone says sir how smart you are reminds you of [4:13] anybody else and so that's a problem for him and and to get him testy is really important to show [4:21] his personality because already a lot of the jury when they were doing jury selection says they don't [4:26] like him and he's moved from when he when OpenAI started to a hero in tech to a villain to many people [4:33] and it's not everybody but many people and so it's a very difficult thing and he's showing that on by [4:39] getting agitated he shouldn't get agitated and of course it's impossible for him not to because he [4:44] doesn't have self-control. I mean he has been trying to position himself as someone who was always [4:49] concerned about AI safety and wants to protect humanity and we actually told the jury that he has [4:54] quote extreme concerns over AI and that it could also kill us all we don't want to have a terminator [5:01] outcome you buy in that? Yeah oh that's true we talked about it many years ago I think it's changed [5:08] because then he rushed off and started his own company which has severe problems of non-consensual [5:15] sexual images child pornography Twitter is a is a sea of disaster porn and white supremacy and Nazis [5:23] running around and he's let them on the so if he cares about safety he would run his his other things [5:29] correctly but he went on off and raised money for Grok and he's doing all manner he's in lawsuits about [5:35] how they do the data centers so if he cares so much about the human race he wouldn't be abusing it so [5:41] much you know and so I think he looks he looks maybe he's changed his mind because he was absolutely [5:47] genuinely concerned and I think still is and there there was a story today which I've talked about [5:52] previously in the New York Times about uh cyber experts being scared about a bioweapon being [5:59] created by these companies and so you know it's terrifying and he's they all were concerned but [6:05] they don't care because they're in search of the the more money even though they're incredibly obscenely [6:11] wealthy they want more money and so or they want to win over each other and that's what this is really [6:16] a grudge match because he was stupid enough to you know to run out of the room because he [6:22] in a peak and Sam Altman turned it into something he never thought he could do and so that's really [6:28] what this is about so we'll see where it goes but yeah they're competitors they're competitors so [6:33] that's what you have to keep in mind CNN contributor Jacob Ward is a technology journalist he's the host [6:38] of the rip current podcast and joins us this hour from Oakland it's good to have you with us um I also [6:42] like having you put this in context for us because um first of all bring us into the courtroom and what [6:49] it's like in this moment I saw one point you said it was all very silicon valley for those of us on [6:54] the east coast I mean put that put that into perspective because this almost seems like a [6:59] crazy divorce playing out um but with fascinating parameters yes if mom and dad or in this case dad [7:08] and dad were the richest and most influential people in the world then this would be the divorce [7:14] that's right it would be a weird divorce that you'd be at the center of I mean the thing about it [7:18] being in that courtroom I mean American courthouses are so great because there's no velvet ropes there's [7:24] no VIP bathroom right I had to wait in line for the men's room next to Sam Altman in the weird awkward [7:31] way that that men sometimes have to do and and that alone was weird musk going up and down the courtroom [7:37] uh corridors because there's really no place to hang out with his security detail and the reason it's [7:42] also very silicon valley is that there's this funny combination of corporate jargon and this kind of [7:49] ruler of the world sort of language so at one point we were shown an exhibit in which musk was writing [7:55] back to altman back in 2017 when they were first kicking around the idea of a non-profit and they [8:00] were talking about what the corporate structure of open ai might be and musk said at one point I'm [8:05] paraphrasing here but he basically said we could have a board of let's say 12 people but we might need [8:10] to expand it to 16 depending on how much of the world's fate rests on its shoulders I mean literally [8:19] you know he's not saying this as a joke he's saying if we needed the enough people to deal with the [8:25] technology that might upend the economy in the world as we know it we'll add an extra four people [8:29] to the board so it's this funny mix of of business jargon and sort of science fiction language that I [8:35] think really defines this kind of trial yeah and I think it leaves a lot of people scratching their heads [8:40] wondering if this is reality right is this really the way that people are doing business is this the [8:45] way that you know two of the most powerful men on the planet are conducting themselves and deciding on [8:51] the future of not only a company but potentially the impact on a lot of average people and and to [8:57] that end what is the potential impact here well the short-term impact for open ai is that if [9:05] Elon Musk gets his way you know the monetary damages make no difference to a company worth 720 [9:10] whatever it is billion dollars at this point maybe 72 billion dollars I mean it's incredible how much [9:14] money they are throwing around it's so late in the night I can't even remember what it is but it's in [9:17] the hundreds of billions and you have uh you know uh but but if he was to be able to depose you know [9:25] knock off Altman and Greg Brockman the president of open ai which is one of his plans then that would [9:30] be a competitive advantage and it could derail open ai's plans for an IPO later this year that's the [9:35] short-term effect but you know the part for you and me Erica is the fact that you know there's been [9:40] almost no democratic input into the the acceptance of AI into our lives you don't really get any say [9:45] and so the fact that nine random Oakland residents people that live here in my city have some input [9:51] into how this is going to go is a really interesting thing but I would say you know the theme that I saw [9:56] over and over again in the testimony is this theme of clearly two gentlemen who are very concerned with [10:02] who gets credit for this world changing industry changing company and this feeling that there's [10:09] really you know there's you you the musk was so triggered at one point by open ai's lawyer Mark [10:15] Savitt who basically said well what kind of contributions were you really making you didn't [10:19] make technical contributions here and you could see Musk's head pop off the idea that he wouldn't [10:24] get credit much less technical credit for this clearly makes him crazy and so there's a there's a [10:30] real there's it's not just about the competitive advantage between Elon Musk's companies and [10:34] and the open ai company it is also I think a question of credit and legacy which is of course [10:40] the defining thing for so many people here in Silicon Valley yeah absolutely bragging rights and uh [10:45] and a healthy dose of ego as well Jacob Ward really appreciate it thank you