Dr. Fauci pleads Fifth over 70x at heated Covid hearing

[0:00] Dr. Anthony Fauci, he's invoking the Fifth Amendment in a very contentious Capitol Hill [0:05] hearing amid questions related to the COVID pandemic response. The Republican chair of [0:11] the Senate Homeland Security Committee, Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, issued a subpoena for [0:16] Fauci, the former head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, to appear [0:21] before his panel. Fauci and Paul, a trained ophthalmologist, have an acrimonious history, [0:27] to say the least, with Paul even calling for Fauci to face criminal consequences. [0:32] Before today's hearing, the committee released more than 1,000 pages of the doctor's personal [0:36] diary from 2019 to 2022. The entry document Fauci's growing fame at the time, shining a light on his [0:45] interactions with celebrities and members of the media, including some CNN journalists. [0:50] The diary also narrates Fauci's escalating concerns about COVID-19 and conflicting relationships [0:55] with both Trump and Biden administration officials. So let's go live now to CNN and congressional [1:01] correspondent Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill and CNN's Kevin Liptec at the White House. We also have CNN [1:07] senior legal analyst Ellie Honig with us as well. Lauren, you caught up with Dr. Fauci's attorney [1:12] after he was forced to leave this hearing room amid this dispute with the Republican chair of the [1:16] committee. What did he tell you? Yeah, essentially he was just trying [1:22] in the room to explain why Dr. Fauci was pleading the fifth. And while he kept talking, [1:29] it was clear that Rand Paul repeatedly told him that he was not authorized to speak in the committee [1:35] room, that he could not speak on behalf of his client, and that he wasn't even supposed to be [1:40] sitting next to him during that committee hearing when he continued to try to speak. He then was [1:45] kicked out of the room. And that's when I caught up with him. And we were pressing him on what exactly [1:51] he was trying to say, because we couldn't hear given the fact the microphone wasn't on. And he [1:55] essentially said that he was just trying to explain why he was pleading the fifth. Here he was with us. [2:02] Have you ever seen this happen in a congressional hearing? [2:04] Dr. Fauci has a valid Fifth Amendment privilege, and he has the right to assert it. [2:09] And that's what you were trying to say? That's what I was trying to tell the committee. [2:12] And obviously, I've covered a lot of these hearings on Capitol Hill. Very, very tense moment [2:21] there. And despite the fact that I've covered a number of these hearings, I've even covered a [2:26] number of really fiery hearings where Senator Rand Paul was the chairman. I have never seen a lawyer [2:32] of someone kicked out of the room. Obviously, that was an extremely, extremely fiery moment that [2:38] you saw there repeatedly throughout the last hour and a half. Dr. Fauci has just continued to plead [2:44] the fifth. Whether that was a question about his time leading the coronavirus response in this country, [2:50] or whether it was a question that was as simple as what the color of the room was, [2:55] he continued to argue he was pleading the fifth on the advice of counsel. It was an extremely, [3:02] extremely tense hearing. Yeah, more than 70 times pleading the fifth. More than 70 times he invoked [3:07] to his right under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. Lauren, stand by. I want to bring [3:12] Kevin in. How is the White House viewing all of this, specifically the politics of this very [3:16] dramatic hearing? Yeah, and it's clear that President Trump and people around President Trump [3:21] view this as a vindication of sorts. They have long viewed Dr. Fauci as a foil for them politically, [3:28] and certainly for President Trump, who looks back to the year 2020 with a degree of regret in a lot of [3:35] ways. That was obviously the year he lost a presidential election, and he has blamed it in part on the COVID [3:41] pandemic. Now, he blames it on the effects that it has had on the economy and on the shutdowns and on just [3:47] general voter resentment about being locked inside. I think you could also argue that the COVID had the effect of [3:55] people souring on the president's handling of what was a major crisis for the country, but either way you [4:02] look at it, COVID in a lot of ways cost the president that election, and he has always sort of looked for [4:08] someone to blame, and clearly Dr. Fauci was that person. Obviously, they had made that intent known in his [4:15] years out of office. That was part of why President Biden offered him this pardon, and I think it was evident just [4:22] listening to the questions from the Republican senators in this hearing that they continue to view [4:28] this as a political cudgel. You know, you heard the Senator Bernie Moreno say that he hoped that voters [4:34] would see clips from this hearing and that it would sway their own votes in future elections, just I think [4:41] underscoring how COVID continues to affect the politics of the current day. Now, President Trump earlier this [4:47] morning did write about Dr. Fauci on Truth Social. He says, one, that more people died of COVID under the [4:55] Biden administration than the Trump administration, and it is true that the pandemic continued to rage [5:00] even after he was out of office. He talks about Operation Warp Speed, which was his initiative to get [5:06] a vaccine developed. It was actually one of the major highlights of his COVID response, but it's not [5:12] something that he talks about that much anymore. And then he goes on to say, quote, I inherited Fauci, [5:18] who was there since the 1980s, but with each passing day relied less and less on him. He made too many bad [5:24] calls, like on masks. And that's true. You know, at the very beginning of the COVID pandemic, the [5:30] president and Dr. Fauci had a fairly good relationship. He talked about him as a major television [5:36] celebrity. But as time went on, it really did start to sour so much that by the end of the [5:43] president's terms, they were barely on speaking terms. And you saw that reflected in Fauci's diaries [5:48] as well, when he called the president out of control, a true embarrassment, an idiot, and all [5:54] those sorts of things. And so as the president pulled before this congressional committee to have to [6:05] invoke the Fifth Amendment repeatedly, which I think in the president's eyes is an admission, [6:10] something of guilt. Of course, it is not. But it is, I think, in their view, something of an [6:15] embarrassment for this figure who they have long blamed for the president's downfall in some ways. [6:21] And let's talk a little bit more about that. The fact that Dr. Fauci pleaded the Fifth Amendment [6:25] more than 70 times this morning. I want to bring in Ellie Honig on that point. Ellie, [6:30] you heard Senator Hawley trying to make the case that he doesn't have the right to invoke the Fifth, [6:36] given his preemptive pardon from President Biden. What did you make of that? [6:40] So Senator Hawley's actually making the opposite argument there. He cited that Supreme Court case [6:46] from 1896, and here's why. So if there was no pardon, for sure, Dr. Fauci would have the right [6:53] to take the Fifth. The complicating factor is he does have this pardon. And so he cannot take the Fifth [6:59] for anything that might be covered by the pardon. That's what the case that Josh Hawley cites [7:04] says. But the reason Fauci can take the Fifth here is because he's concerned about potential [7:10] charges that fall outside the scope of that pardon. Two things in particular. One, the [7:16] pardon from President Biden would only cover Dr. Fauci for potential federal crimes. But Dr. Fauci [7:22] could still be charged for state crimes. In fact, a few minutes ago, we just heard Senator Moody [7:27] from Florida say that there is a state level grand jury looking at Dr. Fauci. So he can invoke [7:33] the Fifth on that basis. The other thing is, the pardon was issued by President Biden on [7:38] his last full day in office, January 19th of 2025, and only covers conduct up to that date. [7:45] So Dr. Fauci can still be charged with federal crimes or state crimes that happened after that [7:51] date, up to and including today. So the case Senator Hawley cites really makes my point, [7:57] which is he cannot take the Fifth for things that are within the pardon, but he certainly [8:01] can take Fifth if he has exposure outside of the pardon, which he certainly does. [8:06] Good point. And Lauren, let me go back to you. Do you have any sense at all of how Republicans [8:11] on the committee may now move forward with possibly trying to punish Dr. Fauci for invoking his Fifth [8:18] Amendment rights? Yeah, I actually asked Senator Rand, excuse me, Senator Ron Johnson about that [8:25] when he came out of the hearing room. He said, ultimately, it's going to be up to the Chairman [8:30] Rand Paul. But you heard there in the early part of this hearing that Paul made clear there would be [8:35] quote, repercussions for declaring that he was pleading the Fifth today. And so I do think that [8:41] Republicans are going to be looking really closely about whether or not they can try and bring some [8:46] kind of case that he is impeding a congressional investigation. I do think that Ellie's point is [8:53] a good one, which is essentially he was concerned today. Dr. Fauci was that coming before this committee [9:00] hearing, given what Senator Paul has said about wanting him imprisoned in the past could potentially [9:05] put him in a situation where every single thing that he said, every question he answered would be [9:11] poured over. And perhaps there would be some kind of gray area that he worried about that Senator Paul [9:17] would try to use to argue that he had lied to a congressional committee, which of course, also is [9:21] a crime. So that is sort of the context that all of this is transpiring. And I will note that Fauci was [9:27] very clear. He has come before Congress more than 200 times during his career, and that he's always been happy to [9:33] answer questions. He said it was with deep regret that he wasn't answering them today. But he did point [9:38] out that he was extremely concerned that given some of the statements that Senator Paul, Chairman Paul [9:42] has made in the past, it was just legally very precarious to move forward with answering congressional [9:48] questions today.