Does the world need new leaders? Varsha Gandikota & Naledi Pandor — Reframe

[0:00] You've been the target of threats and intimidation and the case at the [0:03] International Court of Justice has come at great personal cost to you. [0:07] There's a gentleman who's a blogger and he always the most evil anti-Semite is Nalehdi Pandu. [0:17] And I don't hate anyone, even those who oppressed us, who put my father in prison, [0:21] my grandfather, I don't hate them. So you know it won't stop one because the things that [0:29] we believe in are correct. [0:38] The U.S.-Israel assault in Iran has rocked the global order, igniting an unprecedented [0:44] geopolitical crisis. In this episode of Reframe we ask, can the global south challenge U.S. dominance [0:51] and unite to build a world order grounded in justice and international law? [0:56] I'm Varsha Gandhi Kota and Nell Lutla. I lead the Progressive International and I also serve as [1:02] Executive Secretary for the Hague Group, a forum for governments coordinating legal and diplomatic [1:07] action for Palestine. Joining me today is Dr. Nalehdi Panduor, one of the longest serving members [1:13] of South Africa's post-apartheid government. As Foreign Minister, Dr. Panduor played a pivotal role [1:20] in taking Israel to the International Court of Justice on the charge of genocide. Now she's chair of [1:26] the Board of Trustees of the Nelson Mandela Foundation. Dr. Panduor, we're meeting in an [1:33] unprecedented moment. President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu unleashed what [1:39] they call Operation Epic Fury at the end of February on Iran, plunging not just the region but the entire [1:46] world into catastrophe. But at the same time, President Trump's calls for support to his allies, [1:53] especially in Europe, have been met with often lukewarm responses and in some cases outright [1:59] resistance. As you watch the situation unfold, what does that tell you about where power actually sits [2:05] right now in the international order? Well, unfortunately, I think a lot of power resides in [2:13] those who have military might. And this is a real tragedy for the world. But I think the naming of this [2:23] war against Iran sounded a bit like a sort of Superman comic, and that just gives you an indication [2:33] of the lack of maturity of some of the leaders that we have today. So I think the world is in its most [2:43] most insecure, unstable space at the moment. I think unilateral action has become a very popular device, [2:56] particularly of the United States of America. But I think in the midst of the dark clouds, [3:03] as you indicated, there are signs of hope, some sense of resistance. The response of Iran was not to [3:11] cow down. The response of Europe was not to immediately join in. And many leaders in different [3:19] parts of the world expressed their horror and called for an end to hostility. [3:27] Let's bring it closer to home. South Africa is navigating a genuinely difficult position right now, [3:34] seeking to mend strained relations with Washington, while also seeking to stay in support of its [3:40] traditional ally, Iran. How do you see South Africa's foreign policy orientation? [3:47] Well, you know, South Africa has always believed in the notion that we should be friends throughout the world. [3:55] We don't seek to be an enemy to anyone. Our interests to develop our country, to address our problems of poverty, [4:04] of inequality and inadequate economic growth. But we're very clear that we struggled for far too long [4:12] to become a people who are bullied by anyone. And so we will resist being told what to do. We had enough [4:21] of being under the thumb of an oppressor. So we're clear that we have a foreign policy [4:30] that is not aligned. It doesn't mean we don't believe in anything. And often it's hazardous terrain. [4:36] So for example, we've always objected to the blockade of Cuba. We believe it's unjust. It's without merit [4:46] in international law. And we've been steadfast friends to Cuba without particularly seeking a specific [4:56] benefit. It is correct that we should hold that position. [5:00] BRICS has been divided on this issue. Brazil, China, Russia very swiftly condemned the military attack [5:08] on Iran, while India appears to have taken the other side, even though it's faltering at the moment. [5:14] But it chairs the bloc's presidency in this year. And as foreign minister, you oversaw the expansion of [5:20] the BRICS, perhaps to a cost of ideological coherence. But crucially, you also inducted Iran as its member. [5:28] So I know that BRICS is not the non-aligned movement of the 1970s, which had at its core, [5:33] a kind of anti-colonial sentiment. But are you still surprised when you see that in this critical [5:40] juncture, as a fellow member is attacked, BRICS is mostly seen as missing in action? [5:47] It was never established as a political entity. So I'm not surprised that individual members [5:54] have different perspectives on a range of issues of diplomacy. But I believe on so many issues BRICS [6:03] is working together. But they haven't sought to be popular or to put what they're doing, [6:09] you know, in the public domain. They're working away quietly, developing processes, policies, [6:18] institutions, because when you go out and you are too visible to the whole world, you begin to be [6:26] attacked. We've seen this. So I think subtlety is important. And the fact that they continue to talk [6:34] about the use of own currency for international payments, for example, developing systems for [6:42] improving development finance institutions, strengthening the BRICS Bank. I think the recent [6:52] trade tariff measures that came into place have created an increased unity where BRICS members are [7:01] now seeing that actually we should be working together, not just as BRICS, but in the broader [7:08] international institutions, because we're not certain that rules will always, you know, be followed. [7:16] But inside these BRICS meetings, or perhaps even in other multilateral rooms, do you see a kind of [7:23] abandoned spirit, which is named after the historic meeting that happened in Bandung, that brought the [7:29] Asian and African oppressed, colonized peoples of the world to build something common? Do you see that [7:35] being sparks of that anywhere in these rooms? Certainly, I think there's beginning to be that [7:41] kind of conversation, because the more you face attack, the more you have to look at defence, and [7:48] defence comes in collaboration. That's why the BRICS countries have military exercises and defend their [7:57] existence, you know, quite vocally, because they realise that if you build a relationship of strong [8:05] bonds, then you will, I think, eventually be able to withstand any, you know, hostile action against you. [8:15] But I think it's a growing realisation. You, as Foreign Minister, led the historic genocide convention [8:23] case against Israel at the International Court of Justice, a case now backed by nearly two dozen [8:30] countries. I was an observer in the courtroom in the Peace Palace in The Hague, when your legal team took [8:36] the case for its first trial. And I remember very clearly that right afterwards, Prime Minister Netanyahu [8:42] called for a press conference to say just one thing, no one will stop us, not The Hague, no one. [8:48] Two years in, as you look at what's unfolded, what do you make of Netanyahu's declaration? How do you see [8:55] how the case has progressed? Well, the onslaught of genocide against the people of Palestine has [9:02] continued. The seizing of their land has continued. So Mr. Netanyahu has kept to his word, and the people of [9:11] Palestine have been failed by large parts of the international community. I continue to be hopeful [9:20] that we will all realise that all persons are deserving of self-determination and sovereignty. [9:29] But to have it, we need to pay attention to those who perpetrate harm against people. [9:37] And I think the fact that the Prime Minister of Israel does not fear international law or international [9:45] institutions needs to really cause us all to sit up and take action. And we have to, as the world community, [9:55] act in concert with the freedom-loving people of Palestine and help them to achieve the goals [10:05] that they desire and which every human being should be able to enjoy. [10:12] So I think we need to build on the activism we've seen in the last three years and encourage civil society [10:22] to mount a very strong action toward ensuring that Palestinians achieve freedom. [10:31] Let me push back on that a little bit, because I think we've seen global protests on streets across [10:37] cities, across the world, in every continent for Palestine. So the people of the world in many ways [10:42] have felt this outrage at the injustice that's ongoing, at the genocide, and asked their governments to stop it. [10:50] But unlike, I might say, the difference between the 70s and the 80s to now, we don't have the leaders [10:56] in our governments that are actually taking this forward, reflecting the will of the people. [11:01] Part of this, I would attribute to a rise of right-wing nationalism, that the nationalisms that we had [11:08] primarily in Asia and Africa through colonial movements were also fundamentally internationalist. [11:13] Where do we go from here to building that kind of leadership in each of our own societies? [11:18] We're in the 21st century, and these challenges have existed for many years. [11:26] Now we're no longer in the 60s and 70s, where we'd had the non-violent movement, [11:33] led by Martin Luther King, the civil rights developments in the United States of America, [11:40] Mahatma Gandhi and his non-violent movement, the uprisings and protests in South Africa. [11:49] We're living in a very different world. I think the decades of Islamophobia have had a devastating effect [11:59] on human rights and attitudes toward the interests of others. In addition, what we really lack is [12:07] leadership. We are in a period where we have the worst leaders imaginable in many countries [12:15] throughout the world, and this is what's really horrifying. I wish we could have more women leaders [12:21] who have strength and principle. One of the last in Europe was Angela Merkel, who attempted to stand up [12:30] when Syrian refugees were coming into Europe, and she tried to take a brave stand, but wasn't always [12:38] supported by those around her. But she had the courage, you know, to speak up and say it's correct [12:45] to assist those who seek refuge from conflict. Now, let me come back to the matter of the global protests. [12:52] It's true that young people and adults and, you know, many others have stood up, [12:59] have been on the streets. But in order to execute a struggle, you need a campaign. For South Africa, [13:11] we had a very firm campaign on international solidarity, which meant boycott, disinvest, [13:20] sanction. Quite clear, there was a hook, free Mandela. We don't have a free Bagouti campaign. [13:27] Well, I completely agree, but I would argue that campaigns need organization. And you had the [13:31] African National Congress, the ANC, that acted as the fulcrum for all of this energy into converting it [13:38] into a popular force. But nonetheless, let's go back to something you said earlier about punishment, [13:43] that anyone that stands up to the powerful forces is punished. Dr Pando, you've faced a lot of this. [13:50] You've been the target of threats and intimidation, and the case at the International [13:54] Court of Justice has come at great personal cost to you. Can you tell us about this? [13:59] Well, you should read the, I think it's called the Telegraph, and see what they wrote about me. [14:06] I was astounded when someone sent me an article that says the professor who invited me to the [14:14] Palestine Institute at Cambridge University must keep me out because I'm a vile woman. [14:24] And this is said by persons who've been written to by individuals from South Africa who are part of the [14:31] Zionist movement. And one of the persons quoted in the Telegraph is a lord, who I assume is in the House [14:40] of Lords, I don't know. But I haven't spoken to any of them, they don't know me, but I'm a vile woman. [14:45] And this is, it's consistent, I get this almost every month. There's a gentleman who's a blogger, [14:53] and he always, the most evil anti-Semite is Naledi Pandu. And I don't hate anyone, really. I don't hate [15:04] anyone. Even those who oppressed us, who put my father in prison, my grandfather, I don't hate them. [15:10] So to be called an anti-Semite just proves that, you know, people are afraid of debating ideas. [15:18] So I'm just astounded at, you know, some of the reaction by people I regard as intelligent, [15:27] and some of whom did participate in the oppressive apartheid system, they should know better. [15:35] So, you know, it won't stop one, because the things that we believe in are correct. I couldn't have [15:45] argued that South Africans who are oppressed should be free. And then I see another oppressed person, [15:51] and I don't act in the same way. It's just, it's crazy. [15:55] But these threats, they're not just against you or individual members of the Cabinet, which of course [16:01] we've seen reported in the news, but it's against South Africa, and they're institutional. [16:07] And right now we're seeing these allegations of white genocide claims being put forth by [16:12] Washington. Do you think it's a consequence of your case at the International Court of Justice? [16:16] I think so, yes. I think that, you know, propaganda is being marshaled. We've seen this under apartheid. [16:22] They're brilliant, you know, at propaganda, and they can use the media so effectively. [16:29] So there is a wide range of propaganda that is being marshaled against South Africa and its policies. [16:36] The fact that the government seeks to achieve transformation that would ensure that those [16:43] who were formerly oppressed become part of the broader economy of our country. People who have [16:49] benefited from being very wealthy, extremely wealthy, don't want to see that change. And so they'll accuse [16:57] you of stealing their property when they own, you know, more than 70% of the economy. This is [17:05] nothing that should surprise us. And all it should do is persuade us to do even better. [17:10] Given that we know international law is the same, it's equal, it's the same for anyone reading it. [17:16] The question is about who gets to wield it, right? So do you think the case would have progressed [17:21] differently had it been, say, Norway, not South Africa, that brought the case to the court? [17:26] It would have been wonderful if it was a country from the West, because it would have convinced all [17:31] of us that the West believes in the ideals that they espouse to us through various NGOs and through [17:40] meetings they hold with us, you know, lecturing us about the practice of democracy. [17:45] But we beat them to it this time. You know, country standing up for the right thing is the direction [17:52] in which the world needs to go. You know, you spoke about being lectured in halls about hypocrisy, [17:59] which is, I think, a sentiment that a lot of Global South governments feel. But let's look at [18:04] what's happening today. The United States and Israel bombed Iran when it was at the negotiating table. [18:10] We know now that Iran had agreed not to stockpile nuclear material and to degrade its current stockpile, [18:16] conditions that it had never accepted before, and then it was bombed. So as a result, you actually [18:23] now have two nuclear states attacking a non-nuclear state without any provocation. So let me ask you [18:30] directly, if you're Iran, does this not increase your appetite for a nuclear deterrent as the only guarantee [18:37] of security? And in fact, is in every country asking itself, why shouldn't I get a New York? [18:43] Well, I hope we don't go that route, because non-proliferation is very important. It's something [18:49] our country supports very strongly. President Mandela and our leaders were part of support for [18:58] us getting rid of the nuclear weapon that apartheid South Africa had developed with the support of [19:06] apartheid Israel. So I would really be horrified if we suddenly have a nuclear race, and I hope we don't [19:14] go there. But I do think we need to have respect for negotiations and for diplomacy. If your intention is [19:22] deception, you are destroying a very important tool of diplomacy, negotiation. And Iran has always said [19:31] it has never had the intention of developing a nuclear weapon. And I think all of us want to have [19:39] the right to advance research and innovation. And no one should tell us in what areas we should do that. [19:46] I want to put forth this scenario for you. The United States has pulled back all of its funding, [19:50] primarily through USAID, which it used to fund HIV aid programs across Africa, which in many ways [19:57] crippled domestic biotechnology, domestic healthcare industry, because it was NGYs to such a large degree. [20:04] Do you see this, I mean, despite the tragic short-term circumstances and consequences, in the long term, [20:09] does it create an opening for a pan-African sovereignty, a pan-African healthcare industry that's [20:15] no longer at the beck and call of Bill Gates or whoever's calling the shots in Washington? [20:21] Well, it was Steve Biko who said, black man, you're on your own. I think it's a real tragedy [20:28] that the United States of America is now exposing the world to increased infection and to a real reversal [20:36] in gains we've made both in diagnostics and treatment. So I hope scientists will continue the work. [20:45] The world has to realize that it can cooperate, that various countries can work together. [20:54] You just have to stand up and develop new approaches, new partnerships, new friends, [21:01] while continuing your discussion with your old friend who's changed a tenor because, you know, [21:10] occupation of office is tenuous. There will be a change and so you can't kind of retreat. [21:20] Is it a change of tenor or would you say it's a mask off or an extension of an existing dynamic? [21:26] I think there are signs with the mayor of New York and other electoral races in the United States of [21:34] America that a new ethos is beginning to emerge. And in fact, some of the protests that Americans have [21:42] generated themselves, such as No King, protests indicate that people are aware that there's a threat to [21:50] democracy and that if we don't stand up, we actually as ordinary citizens are the losers. The trade unions have [21:58] become a little stronger. They've realized that they'd become comfortable. They were rather administrative [22:04] and bureaucratic and weren't alert to the fact that the rights, which have been hard won, can be lost [22:12] speedily and you can be dismissed without notice, without benefit. You're now seeing a pushback. [22:19] So sometimes, you know, when you're authoritarian, you actually are giving life to a progressive [22:28] revolutionary spirit and it may not be what you anticipated. And let's hope we do see pan-African [22:34] growth on the African continent as a result of the current policies. [22:41] You come from a family of anti-apartheid activists. Your father and grandfather were tried by [22:49] then apartheid regime. You went into exile as a child. And you grew up being told exactly in the [22:56] circumstances that you've described that there is a struggle, but that one day we will win and we will [23:01] be free. And the anti-apartheid movement did just that, building an international coalition and a [23:07] campaign of unprecedented, I would say, global dimensions. And you now chair the Nelson Mandela [23:13] Foundation. Mandela, who loudly said, our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of Palestinians. [23:19] Where do you see the spirit of Mandela today? [23:21] In so many things. The legacy lives. The close association between the support for Palestine in [23:32] South Africa and, of course, the foundation's role in that. The work the foundation is doing [23:40] to encourage interfaith dialogue because there's been an abuse of various denominations and an attempt [23:49] to lock them into a notion of being Zionist and Christian. The foundation is working with a range [23:57] of faith groups to encourage them to dialogue about what is happening in the world today and how we [24:04] understand the plight of Palestinian people. And I think this is very, very critical work. So Mr. Mandela lives [24:12] in the promotion of his legacy of attention to social justice, of encouragement of dialogue, of seeking [24:21] to get people to test themselves intellectually on how they view the world, how they interact with it, [24:29] and what they do in order to make a difference. So we've built our programs around his call that the [24:39] world needs people who make good trouble. And we encourage people to consider making good trouble. [24:46] On that note, Dr. Panda, it's been a pleasure having you. Thank you so much for joining us on Al Jazeera Refrain.