Dem candidate Brad Lander on why he calls himself a 'liberal Zionist'

[0:00] Progressive challengers have ousted three incumbent Democrats in primaries just over [0:05] the past month. Two of those happened right here in New York City. Brad Lander and Daryliza Avila [0:11] Chevalier both beat Democratic incumbents and are likely to win their November elections [0:16] in these deep blue districts. Brad Lander joins me now. Thank you so much for being here. [0:22] I want to ask, we were having these conversations earlier in the show, [0:26] there's definitely a leftward shift towards where you are philosophically. It showed up in your [0:32] primary and others. But in less blue districts, there still are more moderate Democrats being [0:39] elected. Even right here in New York, in New York 17, where Republican Mike Lawler is the congressman, [0:45] Kate Connolly won the same day you did. So do you think that progressives like yourself could [0:50] actually win in a place that isn't deep, deep blue? Well, I don't think the line really [0:56] so much should be thought of as progressives versus moderates. To me, it's fighters versus [1:01] folders. People are fed up with the status quo they don't feel is working for them. And that's [1:05] true for working families in more moderate or frontline districts. Look at someone like Pat [1:10] Ryan in the Hudson Valley, who's been fighting on utility costs and just showing people, [1:15] I'm out there fighting for working families. And that's what I think can unite us. [1:20] You know, whether you use Medicare for all and the Green New Deal, or whether you say, [1:25] let's go confront the utility company that's bilking us. That's the energy all Democrats need [1:31] to bring this ball. One of the big reasons you won your primary here is that you separated yourself [1:36] from the incumbent Democrat Dan Goldman on Israel. You use the term genocide. He does not. You don't [1:44] want to have the U.S. funding Israel militarily. You call yourself a liberal Zionist. What is a liberal [1:52] Zionist? I believe in the vision of a Jewish and democratic Israel. I care about the place, but I [2:00] don't think it's possible for it to be democratic while it's occupying the West Bank and Gaza. And I [2:05] don't think that Israel's conduct in Gaza, which I do consider a genocide, is consistent with Jewish [2:11] values. So to me, it's like you stand up and you call it as you see it. I don't want to keep sending [2:16] U.S. military aid to Israel while it's violating international law and Palestinian human rights. [2:22] But I want it to actually honor international law and Palestinian human rights so it can be [2:27] the Jewish and democratic Israel that I grew up believing in. I'm sorry. I just want to make [2:31] sure I understand. You said that you don't think it's a democratic Israel? I want it to be a Jewish [2:36] and democratic Israel. Right now, I don't think it's modeling democracy while it occupies [2:41] the West Bank and Gaza and half the people under its sovereignty can't vote. But I believe that [2:47] when occupation ends, then it can be Jewish and democratic. And that's what I am going to be [2:52] fighting for. Why are you not just a Zionist? Why do you say liberal Zionist? What do you think [2:58] the difference is? I mean, the Declaration of Independence that founded Israel says it would be a [3:03] place for the ingathering of exiles and full civil and political rights for everyone living there. [3:09] But Palestinians living in the West Bank facing settler terrorism or living in refugee camps in Gaza [3:15] because their schools and hospitals were destroyed, they don't have full political and civil rights. So [3:20] it is not living up to its founding vision. And to me, believing in Jewish and democratic means [3:28] you got to fight for the human rights of Palestinians at the same time as you fight for the safety of Jews. [3:33] I guess maybe a shorthand way of saying it is, I don't think Israelis will be safe until Palestinians [3:38] are free. And they both need that. Can I just ask you a point blank? Do you not call yourself a Zionist [3:44] because it is a term that many people on the hard left have started to use as a slur against Jews? [3:50] Well, no, I mean, a liberal Zionist is a Zionist. I just want to make clear I'm not a Zionist like [3:55] Ben Gavir or Smotrich who want to eliminate Palestinians. So that's why I say it. [4:00] To be an American and not believe in what Donald Trump believes in. To me, that's what I am here. [4:05] I believe in the vision of a Jewish and democratic Israel. But it's got to change if it's going to be that. [4:10] Just like, yes, this country. Can I ask you one other question on this? [4:14] Because you said you talked about genocide and you talked about occupying Gaza. [4:18] And I've also heard you talk about the fact that Israel went too far after October 7th. [4:25] What would you have wanted Israel to do when a bunch of civilians, about 1,200, maybe 900 civilians, [4:34] also members of the military, kibbutzniks? These were peaceniks like you who lived on the border with Gaza [4:41] because they were desperate for Palestinian rights and they were murdered brutally. [4:47] If you were asked what would you do in response, what would you have done? [4:51] I mean, let me first clarify. I think Hamas committed an act of genocidal terrorism on October 7th [4:56] and there had to be a response. I mean, priority one should have been return of the hostages, [5:01] getting them back to their families. And that, I think, would have been done faster with a political deal. [5:06] And yes, accountability for the Hamas militants who conducted October 7th, 100%. [5:13] But not killing 5,000 Palestinian kids under five and destroying... [5:17] And when Israel says that they tried, they tried hard to avoid this... [5:21] I'm just playing devil's advocate here, the civilians. [5:24] But Hamas is so evil that it hid those terrorists and the weapons inside civilian population centers. [5:34] War crimes don't justify other war crimes and destroying every single school and hospital [5:40] and mosque and community center in Gaza and still occupying 70% of Gaza. [5:46] In addition to being a violation of international law, it's just not working. [5:50] This isn't actually going to make Israelis safe. [5:52] Can I ask you about today? You endorsed Abdul Al-Sayed, who's running against Haley Stevens in Michigan. [5:59] They're running to be the Democratic nominee for Senate there. [6:03] He was asked by my colleague Isaac Dovier if someone could be a Zionist and a progressive. [6:09] Here's what he said. [6:10] Every definition of a Jewish state ends up in some articulation of illiberal values. [6:16] Every single one. [6:18] How did you square what you just said about believing in the notion of a democratic Israel? [6:24] And what he said, which is there is no such thing as the possibility. [6:31] We disagree on that. That's how I square it. [6:33] And it's not important enough for you that he would say that doesn't our right endorsement? [6:36] I met Abdul through our dear mutual friend Adi Barkin, this amazing activist who died of ALS, [6:42] courageously championing Medicare for All. [6:45] And I don't think anybody's going to fight as hard to fulfill Adi's vision of health care for everybody [6:49] as Abdul Al-Sayed and fight to get money out of politics. [6:53] We disagree on this. [6:55] Now, I believe that he cares about fighting for the safety of Jews in Michigan [6:59] and the human rights and dignity of Israelis. [7:03] He believes in a binational state with equal rights for all its people. [7:07] I believe in two states. [7:08] One majority of Jews with equal rights for its Palestinian minority. [7:12] One a majority of Palestinians with equal rights for its minority Jews. [7:15] You're going to have to get Haas up for that. [7:16] That's a difference. [7:17] Of course we are. [7:18] And a lot else is going to have to change. [7:20] We're going to have to get Netanyahu out and Ben Gver and Smotrich out. [7:22] And Hamas out. [7:24] It's a difference that we have. [7:27] But at the base level, you don't compromise on anyone's humanity. [7:32] And you don't think by him not believing in what you believe in the notion of a Jewish state of Israel [7:38] compromises your humanity? [7:40] I don't. [7:41] I mean, you know, he's been clear that he wants full and equal civil rights and human rights [7:44] for Israelis and Palestinians and for Jews. [7:47] We have a difference in how we approach achieving it. [7:51] But I believe that there's room to work together. [7:54] Just one other question on the question of Zionism. [7:57] Because I've heard, I've been listening to some of the podcasts that you're on and watching [8:02] some of your interviews. [8:02] And you talk about how you get attacked from the left, of which you are a part, being called [8:10] a Zionist baby killer. [8:11] And on the right, or maybe in the Jewish world, calling you a capo, which for people who don't [8:16] know, those were the Jews who were helping keep the peace, so to speak, in the Nazi concentration [8:22] camps. [8:22] And I ask this because this word, Zionist, has been turned into a slur by a lot of people. [8:31] And you just, you talk about how you have experienced that yourself. [8:34] Deborah Lipstadt, who is a very, a world-renowned scholar on these issues, I asked her, she [8:40] said, I do believe that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. [8:44] However, I also believe that anti-Zionism has morphed into its own kind of demonization [8:50] and hatred, a prejudice all its own. [8:52] So I disagree with that also. [8:54] I mean, Zionist can be used as a slur. [8:56] And believe me, if you look at my mentions, I hear it that way. [8:58] But you know, my kid, my son, is named after this guy, Merrick Edelman, who was a Bundist, [9:04] a Jewish democratic socialist in the Warsaw Ghetto, who helped lead the Warsaw Ghetto uprising [9:10] like that so seriously. [9:11] I take the legacy of Jews who fought Nazis. [9:15] He was not a Zionist. [9:16] He didn't believe in a sovereign Jewish state. [9:19] Even Albert Einstein, who they asked to be the president of Israel, wanted it to be safe [9:24] for Jewish life in present Israel and Palestine. [9:29] But he worried that Jewish sovereignty would have dangerous consequences. [9:33] So there are anti-Zionists who are members of my synagogue, who I can tell you are absolutely [9:39] not anti-Semitic, who care about the safety of Jews, who don't believe that the state is [9:44] making Jews safer. [9:46] That's not my position. [9:48] But I don't think it's anti-Semitic. [9:49] Let's look ahead to 2028. [9:51] What do you expect and want from a Democratic candidate for president? [9:58] First and foremost, a vision of an economy that works for working people, a vision for [10:03] health care and housing and child care that people can afford. [10:06] Folks are desperate. [10:07] They feel the system is rigged against them. [10:10] Now they see like AI data centers poisoning their water and taking their jobs, a vision [10:15] that works for working people, a vision for political reform. [10:19] We're going to have to do something about the Supreme Court, about gerrymandering, about [10:23] money and politics. [10:25] And also a hopeful energy, I have to tell you, like what's been moving in New York since [10:30] the Knicks won and we have the World Cup. [10:33] There's a hopeful energy that Mayor Mamdani has been able to tap into. [10:38] I wanted something like that for our country as a whole. [10:41] Going back to our discussion before, there are, I think, at least a trio, maybe more, of [10:48] potential candidates in 2028 who are Jewish. [10:53] You have Josh Shapiro, governor of Pennsylvania, J.B. Pritzker, Illinois, Ossoff, Senator Ossoff, [11:01] Senator from Georgia and Rahm Emanuel. [11:04] They're all critical of Prime Minister Netanyahu, but they all believe in Israel's right to [11:09] exist and have stopped short of calling what's happening in Gaza genocide. [11:13] Do you think that somebody with those views and that religion could be the nominee for [11:21] president in the Democratic Party? [11:22] I do. [11:23] I think it's going to require clarity that we need a reset in the U.S. relationship with [11:27] Israel. [11:28] I think saying we're not going to continue to provide the 2,000 pound bombs that destroyed [11:33] Gaza. [11:33] That we're going to insist on human rights and international law compliance, and we're [11:39] going to stop aid until that happens. [11:41] And that Israel has to step up to recognizing that what's necessary is self-determination [11:48] for Palestinians and Israelis' horizon of political mutual recognition and peace. [11:55] Look, and I'm happy to explain to any of them why I think Raphael Lemkin, the Polish Jew [12:02] and Holocaust survivor who developed the term genocide, the Lemkin Institute considers what's [12:08] happening there a genocide, like Omar Bartoff, an amazing Israeli Holocaust scholar. [12:13] So is that a litmus test? [12:14] I don't think it's a litmus test. [12:15] I think it's something useful for people to look at and grapple and reckon with. [12:19] We've spent thousands of years as the victims, as a rough grappling with what it means in [12:26] some ways to be a perpetrator. [12:28] I think it's a useful dialogue for American Jews to have, but I don't think it's a litmus [12:32] test in the presidential race. [12:34] I do think a reset in the U.S.-Israel relationship is. [12:37] Brad Lander, thanks for sticking around. [12:39] Thank you for coming in.