Debate roundup: Why are the rich thriving as the national debt soars?

[0:00] So not long ago, the guys, and they were all guys who ran big American companies, GM, Ford, Sears, those things, [0:06] they paid themselves about 20 to 30 times the wage of the average worker. [0:10] Today, that's 300 to 400 times. [0:13] Japan doesn't do that. [0:14] Germany doesn't do that. [0:15] The U.K. doesn't do that. [0:17] America does that. [0:18] Two in three Americans now say that they worry more about running out of money than dying in this country. [0:25] I would not complain that my CEO is making all this money. [0:29] If I had an issue with that, I would go start something. [0:33] I would go create something. [0:34] I would go create means for me to go and make more money if that's what I wanted to do. [0:38] What if we didn't spend all of this money on ballrooms and bombs? [0:42] And there's a reason why we call those the third rails, because you step on them, you get electrocuted. [0:46] So we saved some money, cutting things for vulnerable Americans, but what did we use that money for? [0:50] The premise of your argument is... [0:51] Immediately bombing other countries. [0:52] Tonight, income inequality is skyrocketing, and the rift between the haves and the have-nots, [0:58] both in the United States and all around the world, [1:01] continues to grow into a chasm. [1:03] According to a new study, the pay of America's CEOs rose 20 times faster than workers in 2025. [1:10] And while the average global CEO pocketed $8.4 million in pay and bonuses last year, [1:15] it would take the average global worker 490 years to earn the same amount. [1:20] Adjusted for inflation, global worker pay fell 12%, [1:24] while real CEO pay surged 54% between 2019 and 2025. [1:29] But as CEOs use their increasingly growing power to undermine workers' rights, [1:36] one of them is defending that $9 latte that you had the other day. [1:41] What we're seeing is people, you know, they want to have a special experience. [1:48] And regardless of what your income level is, in some cases, you know, a $9 experience does feel like you're splurging. [1:56] And then what that means is we have to make it worthwhile, right? [2:00] And then in other cases, people believe, well, this is a really affordable premium experience [2:05] because they're saying, like, well, it's less than $10. [2:08] I feel like to fully appreciate what he just said, [2:14] you might also want to know that the CEO of Starbucks was given a private jet [2:19] to commute to his office from his home in California. [2:23] He is going 1,000 miles away, presumptively, as often as he wants. [2:31] And he's got a big old corporate jet in order to do that. [2:35] And he's asking you to pay for a very special experience in a $9 cup of coffee. [2:40] Well, that video was not a premium experience. [2:43] I'll start there. [2:44] That was really cringeworthy. [2:48] I am curious to know, I don't go to Starbucks often, [2:51] but I'm curious to know if the premium experience is the barista writing your name incorrectly on the cup. [2:57] Is it the people that squat there all day long and turn it into their home and office? [3:02] Is it the really bad coffee? [3:03] I don't know. [3:04] I'm very curious about it. [3:05] But to those who are complaining, every time I walk by Starbucks, [3:10] every time I drive by Starbucks, there is a line as long as the eye can see. [3:15] People still go. [3:16] They want their fix. [3:18] They're willing to pay. [3:19] So we can't complain unless we use our power as consumers and say, [3:24] you know what, I can make a cheaper, better cup of coffee at home, [3:27] and I'm going to do that. [3:29] But people want to pay for convenience. [3:30] Yeah. [3:31] I mean, I guess the thing is, you know, fine. [3:34] I guess if you have a business model that says $9 for coffee, which they do, is fine. [3:39] Then the other side of that, so what are you doing for your workers? [3:43] I think the part that Americans don't like is where they feel, you know, gypped on the other end, [3:49] on the salary end, on the benefits end, on the ability to sort of provide for their families, that part. [3:55] Abby, I'll take a different approach to that because, look, I believe that we live in the greatest country on the face of the planet, [4:01] and there's unlimited opportunity here for anybody who's willing to work hard and go after it. [4:06] If you're upset about this and how much your CEO makes, go launch your own Starbucks. [4:10] Go launch your own company. [4:11] It's not that easy. [4:12] Go create competition. [4:13] Of course, it's not that easy, but, like, it's never that easy to start a company or something. [4:17] So anyone in this country, like I said, who's willing to work hard and apply themselves, [4:21] go become Starbucks competition and sell $7 premium experiences and undercut your competition. [4:27] Like, I don't think that, you know, I wouldn't complain. [4:31] I would just say, if I don't like it, I'll go start my own thing. [4:33] I think, oh, go ahead. [4:34] Can I ask you a question? [4:35] I'd prefer if Abby asked the questions, but, sure, you can ask the question. [4:38] I mean, do you? [4:38] It's okay. [4:39] We can talk to each other here. [4:40] I mean, do you think that it's insane to say that Starbucks should wage, should raise their wages for their workers? [4:46] Is that insane to say as a concept? [4:48] I think that I believe in free markets, and if a private company sets their wages what they are, then that's what they are. [4:53] And if you don't like the wage... [4:54] You support the minimum wage? [4:55] If you don't like the wage, don't go work there. [4:57] You support the minimum wage? [4:57] I've applied for hundreds of jobs where they didn't meet my minimum I wanted to make, and I didn't go work there. [5:02] And it was as simple as that. [5:03] You also don't have the affordability, or you have the affordability, most likely, to say no to some things. [5:10] Sure. [5:10] Some people have to take jobs that don't pay the living wage to keep up with rising inflation, and they are in these positions. [5:19] And I think to Abby's point, what you're seeing is workers at these companies are just not getting paid for what they should be. [5:26] And then you see the CEOs getting these extravagant, enormous bonuses, and that is the choice of the company. [5:31] But I think there has to be some type of conversation that we have of raising the federal minimum wage and giving workers more benefits so that they can be competitive in the marketplace. [5:42] I appreciate that. [5:42] My mother worked three jobs when we were coming up. [5:46] And if something didn't pay more, she would either go get another job or she would work hard to achieve so she could go make more money. [5:52] But it's not as simple as just telling a CEO what they can do with their business. [5:56] Well, but it's not really about the math and the economics. [5:59] It's about values, right? [6:00] So not long ago, the guys, and they were all guys who ran big American companies, GM, Ford, Sears, those things, they paid themselves about 20 to 30 times the wage of the average worker. [6:11] Today, that's 300 to 400 times. [6:14] Japan doesn't do that. [6:15] Germany doesn't do that. [6:16] The UK doesn't do that. [6:17] America does that. [6:19] Because the values shifted from what's best for the company to how do I drive the stock price up and get as much of that as I can. [6:28] And the notion that so much of it is going to so few people is one of the reasons we got Trump. [6:33] And I want to piggyback off of that because largely we understand that when Trump was running for president, he said that he was going to raise the wages for all these workers all across America. [6:42] But real wage growth is 80% less than what it was. [6:45] So that's the real facts. [6:46] So if you make a campaign promise that you're going to raise wages for workers all across this country and you do not deliver on that, then who does that fall on? [6:54] Well, I don't think the president's point was he was going to go tell private enterprise that you have to pay people. [6:58] He said he was going to create the economic conditions to do so. [7:00] Has he done that? [7:00] That doesn't mean that he was going to go invade businesses, boardrooms, and say you have to pay your employees more. [7:05] Did he create the economic conditions to go and do that? [7:08] You can spin this all the way you want. [7:10] The president of the United States is not going to, he didn't make a promise to go and invade boardrooms and tell companies, private companies, how much they should pay their employees. [7:19] One thing he did do was say that he was going to make life more affordable. [7:23] And as we pointed out, most Americans say that they don't think that that's where it's headed. [7:27] He said he would bring prices down. [7:29] We all knew that that wasn't going to happen because that's not really how prices work. [7:32] Inequality continues to go up. [7:35] He talked about bringing down government spending. [7:38] I couldn't let the day pass without this headline. [7:41] The Trump-Qatari gifted Air Force One is almost delivered, it sounds like, $400 million of taxpayer dollars to give the president a more luxurious ride in the midst of this conversation that we're having, [7:56] in which two and three Americans now say that they worry more about running out of money than dying in this country. [8:05] Look, I think the question I had for you, because I mean, I hear a lot of people talk about two or three jobs. [8:09] But is that what we want in America, for a mother to work two or three jobs in order to keep her family afloat? [8:19] I take it that that is an extraordinary thing that your mother did and that many of our families have done. [8:27] But is that what we want for the future of this country? [8:31] I mean, look, that's a point that's taken. [8:33] I think mothers like mine and others at this table do what they have to do to go and provide for their families. [8:38] And my father also, for the record, worked several jobs as well. [8:41] But my point that I'm making is simply this. [8:44] I would not complain that my CEO is making all this money. [8:48] If I had an issue with that, I would go start something. [8:51] I would go create something. [8:52] I would go create means for me to go and make more money. [8:56] That's what I wanted to do. [8:56] We live in a country where that is available. [8:59] We live in a country where people can't in fact go and do those things. [9:03] Here's the thing. [9:04] We create new businesses that are started in this country every single day. [9:07] And business owners are successful. [9:08] Tim is tapping into the idea that the American dream and the idea that you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps [9:15] and create a business, create jobs, grow your wealth is available in this country. [9:21] And I don't think that is the reality that many Americans face when they see gas prices at $4.39, the highest that they've been since 2022. [9:30] I don't think Americans feel that the opportunities are there for them. [9:34] And that's frankly something that Donald Trump said he would create opportunity. [9:39] Okay. [9:39] Last word. [9:40] Here's what I'll say is that the reality that I see is that the idea that we should just continue business as normal is just simply not working. [9:48] We know that we have $1.1 million layoffs just last year alone. [9:51] That's the highest number since when Trump was last president in 2020. [9:54] And then even before that, the biggest number since the Great Recession. [9:57] So at the reality that we stand today, I think instead of spending $400 million on a Qatari plane and all these other things that Trump is spending money on, [10:04] let's put money towards universal child care so that someone like your mom does not have to go and work two and three jobs to go and provide for her children. [10:11] Well, my mom's a hard-working woman. [10:12] She would work two and three jobs anyway. [10:13] Well, she shouldn't have to do that. [10:14] We come from a long line of people. [10:15] Well, you know what? [10:16] Maybe you think that that should be something that should be done. [10:18] I don't think that it should. [10:19] I think our tax dollars should be spent better and Republicans are not spending it in the way that needs to be happening. [10:23] My point is simply this. [10:24] If you want more, you go work for it. [10:26] And that's been a landmark thing in this country for ages. [10:29] So why should they get it? [10:32] And the workers who make the company go, why do they get it in the neck? [10:36] Look, your boss makes it. [10:38] Well, I think you're retired now. [10:39] But your boss makes it. [10:40] I'm sorry. [10:40] I'm not a boss. [10:41] Oh, you're working for yourself. [10:43] So you went and did exactly what I'm talking about. [10:45] You know, so I mean, I don't get why this is such a bad thing for people to go and innovate and go create something, a better life for themselves. [10:53] Doing the right thing. [10:53] Forbid we want better in this country. [10:55] If this is not a wake-up call about the American economy, I'm not sure what is. [10:59] For the first time since World War II, the U.S. national debt is now larger than its GDP. [11:05] That means that what America owes is bigger than the entire U.S. economy. [11:10] That concerning stat gets even worse if the CBO's future estimates actually come true. [11:16] By 2036, it projects that the debt will be 120% of GDP. [11:22] And by 2056, it could grow to 175%. [11:26] And we are just sort of whistling past the graveyard, apparently, on this one. [11:33] Well, who wants to solve it and reach the wrath of seniors because it's going to require reforms to Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security? [11:39] Wait, I have a good idea. [11:40] I have a different idea here. [11:41] It's taxed the conversation. [11:42] Not just taxed the rich. [11:43] Seize the assets. [11:44] What if we didn't spend all of this money on ballrooms and bombs? [11:48] It would make zero difference to the bottom line. [11:50] Wait a minute. [11:51] When Donald Trump got in three quarters of our revenue is going to mandatory expenses. [11:55] Bombing Iran, we could house every American. [11:58] The thing about the deficit is nobody feels it personally. [12:02] If you felt it personally, if it was really your money coming out of your account, you would be much more eager to police excess spending and extravagant living and all the rest. [12:13] Well, that's all Republicans do. [12:14] You're right. [12:15] But I will say, I mean, to Kat's point, you know, we had a whole—do you remember Doge? [12:21] That actually happened. [12:22] That was about a year ago. [12:23] And if you look at the things that the Trump administration is either spending money on or asking to spend money on, flippantly, these are all things that would be on the Doge wall if Doge still existed. [12:38] There's the $25 billion Iran war, which some people say, according to our sources, is closer to half of it. [12:45] It's $50 billion. [12:46] The National Garden of American Heroes, $34 million. [12:49] East Wing Ballroom, $400 million. [12:51] The Republicans want taxpayers to pay for that. [12:55] Renovating the Kennedy Center for whatever reason, $257 million. [12:59] Gold-accented Triumphal Arch, $15 million. [13:02] And Trump doesn't like windmills. [13:04] So he's literally paying $2 billion so that people cannot harvest energy off the coast of the United States. [13:12] I mean, this is not seemingly an administration that really cares about spending money wisely. [13:22] Well, as Peter said, the only serious conversation that's ever going to be had about this is if you get into the mandatory spending that we do. [13:29] It's the driver of it. [13:30] So then why did we do Doge? [13:31] It's the driver of it. [13:31] What a waste of time. [13:32] No, I don't think so, because I think one of the best actually achievements. [13:37] Was when all of our data got leaked to Elon Musk. [13:40] Was that one of your favorite things? [13:41] I think one of the best achievements they've had, because it's something Republicans have long promised, is that they actually were going to shrink the size of government. [13:49] We have the smallest government we've had since 1966. [13:52] Over time, that will save money. [13:54] Okay. [13:55] But it won't save near enough to solve the issue that you're raising, which is, by the way, a very serious issue. [13:59] According to the Cato Institute, Doge set a goal of balancing the budget by cutting $2 trillion in waste, fraud, and abuse. [14:06] It was later reduced to $1 trillion and then to $150 billion. [14:11] But the federal government spent $7.6 trillion in the first 11 months of the calendar year 2025. [14:16] That is $248 billion higher by November of 2025 compared to the same month in 2024. [14:23] Every month of the last year, the government spent more money, not less. [14:28] And, in fact, there are also, you know, analyses of what Doge did that suggested that we actually paid more money to have people not work in the federal government. [14:39] Again, I think some of this stuff, this is why people were saying that this is all theater, because you're right. [14:44] If you want to really deal with this, you've got to deal with the core issues. [14:48] You have to deal with mandatory spending. [14:49] You have to deal with—you do have to deal with the defense budget. [14:52] You have to deal with mandatory entitlement spending. [14:54] But that conversation is happening exactly nowhere. [14:58] No part of this conversation is happening anywhere in the Trump administration right now. [15:01] No part of that conversation is happening anywhere in our government, nor has it happened in our government, because anybody knows. [15:07] And there's a reason why we call those the third rails, because you step on them, you get electrocuted. [15:12] You get your—I'm not going to go to a profane location—but you do not win your re-election, because the easiest thing to do is you are—it's going to be, oh, you're destroying Medicare and Medicaid. [15:22] I knocked on someone's door, and they said, why do you want to take away my Medicaid? [15:25] I had never said a word about Medicaid, but because I'm a Republican, I want to destroy it. [15:30] You want to take away my Social Security. [15:32] Doesn't matter that we haven't changed the retirement age of Social Security in decades. [15:36] They did— [15:36] Well, the life expectancy is shot at. [15:38] They got, quote, what they called waste and fraud from Medicare and Medicaid last year, and it did not have an effect on the fiscal picture of this country. [15:52] I mean, I do think— [15:53] Because we send it to block grants to states who then— [15:56] Is this off the table, then? [15:57] No more talking about spending and debt and everything? [16:00] You do not talk about deficit spending. [16:03] You talk about the programs. [16:04] I think that's absolutely true. [16:05] If you personally are being chiseled in some way in your own mind with your monthly payment, then you will be so angry at the crusader against government waste. [16:19] That's why nobody does it. [16:21] Didn't Cheney tell Bush no one cares about deficits? [16:24] They always say there's never enough money to help Americans, and then, as Kat said, they go to war immediately after. [16:30] I mean, the big, beautiful bill— [16:30] Spend the vast majority of our money helping Americans through Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. [16:34] The big, beautiful bill cut Medicaid, cut medical research, cut just about any program that Americans rely on. [16:41] And I was thinking, okay, so we saved some money cutting things for vulnerable Americans, but what do we use that money for? [16:45] The premise of your argument is absolutely spurious. [16:50] What? How? How so? [16:51] That we're just cutting the Medicare and Medicaid spending. [16:54] The dollar amounts keep going up. [16:55] I'm saying, really. [16:56] They keep going up. [16:56] They keep going up. [16:56] Republicans consistently say we don't have enough money to fund, let's say, child care or school. [17:00] But guess what? In New Mexico, they just had free college. It cost $1.5 billion. That's like one-tenth of what this—that's one-thirtieth of what this war has cost. [17:08] And universal health care is cheaper than our system. [17:10] What about in New York City? They just passed paid— [17:12] I wish I lived in the dream world in which the federal government can solve these programs and they can be managed effectively from Washington, D.C. [17:18] And free child care in New York City, it cost about $300 million. [17:22] We could have done that all across the country. [17:22] Wonderful for Washington, D.C. [17:23] Sorry, wonderful for New York, wonderful for Washington. [17:26] Let these metropolises—let's devolve down that power. [17:29] Solve problems closest to you. [17:30] Guess what? [17:31] That's how you get effective government. [17:32] Not saying, hey, let's send someone to D.C. to start raining money all around because that's how you get quality learning centers. [17:37] Where does money come from, though? [17:38] Right.