“Crazy” “Insane”: Trump’s reality show presidency suddenly takes a turn and he’s SCRAMBLING

[0:06] Greetings! Welcome to Clock It! [0:09] We are in the sixth week of the war in Iran, [0:11] and the first full week of Todd Blanch's run as acting attorney general. [0:15] Until 2025, you know, Todd Blanch was Donald Trump's personal defense attorney. [0:19] What about that? [0:20] Other things happening this week include the gas prices stressing everybody out, [0:24] the UK denying Kanye a visa because officials say his presence, quote, [0:29] would not be conducive to the public good. [0:31] That's so crazy. [0:31] That is correct. [0:33] And the safe return of an airman who had to eject from an F-15 [0:37] of a mountainous region of Iran. [0:40] Yes, we are going to come back to gas prices [0:42] because I've actually been speaking to some market watchers [0:45] who gave me some advice for our listeners. [0:47] Not good news. [0:48] No, the news was very bad, very depressing. [0:51] But, you know, this is also the week that four astronauts [0:55] traveled further away from Earth than anyone ever, okay? [0:58] It was very exciting. [0:59] Now, they didn't get out, but that's something that we're going to get into it. [1:02] On Friday, they're going to splash down off the coast of San Diego. [1:05] It's so exciting. [1:06] I love, I love space. [1:09] So, this is something you know a lot about. [1:11] The Vice President of the United States is the head of the Space Council. [1:14] Yes, fun fact. [1:15] So, you were in meetings with Vice President Kamala Harris on this. [1:18] Yeah, I mean, her, all the members of the Space Council. [1:21] The Space Council is this expansive membership, if you will, [1:24] that has experts, people from NASA, people within the government, [1:27] a couple of people outside of the government. [1:29] They meet quarterly, actually. [1:31] And then, space is a foreign policy issue as well. [1:34] So, one of my last trips that I took with the Vice President, [1:38] we went to Paris. [1:39] We spent a week in Paris with Macron, honey. [1:41] It was crazy. [1:42] The United States had messed up. [1:44] Go apologize. [1:45] France was mad at us, so we had to spend a week in France to say sorry. [1:50] Oh, we're so sad for you. [1:51] Yeah. [1:51] Yes, yes, it was so taxing, but space was on the agenda of some of the things we talked about. [1:56] And so, Victor Glover, who was the pilot of the Artemis II, [2:02] he's the first Black man to circle the moon, [2:04] but he was also the first Black man on the International Space Station. [2:07] Yeah. [2:08] And so, when he was on the Space Station, [2:10] the Vice President at the time, actually, [2:12] we talked to the astronauts on the Space Station, [2:14] so we wheeled in this big, like, TV screen monitor thing, but, like, huge. [2:20] And then, she was standing in front of it, looking at them. [2:22] They were literally floating in space. [2:23] I was like, oh, my God, gravity is not there. [2:25] It was insane. [2:27] I literally, I love it, okay? I love it. [2:30] The thing that's so interesting about space is it doesn't know, [2:34] it knows no boundaries, right? [2:35] Well, clearly, child. [2:36] Do you think we're alone? [2:37] No. It's impossible. [2:39] It's not just me. [2:40] The people who actually know, like, just the idea of all these galaxies [2:44] that are out in the universe, [2:46] it is impossible for us to be alone. [2:48] Now, it may not be, like, little green men or women, [2:50] but it might be, like, you know, some microbes somewhere. [2:53] And also, this is the thing that I love so much from, [2:55] and this is Neil deGrasse Tyson, who I love and I'm obsessed with. [2:58] He says that if, let's say, someone's 50 billion light years away, [3:01] and they're looking at us, and it's an alien species [3:04] with, like, that walks around, [3:05] what they would see is the dinosaurs because of how light travels. [3:09] And so, what they would be seeing is not us. [3:11] So, that's why nobody come in here, [3:13] because I'm like, what are these monsters? [3:14] Sitting up at the little dance? [3:15] Isn't that crazy? [3:16] Okay, where did he say this? [3:18] He said on some podcast, some podcast. [3:20] So, there's Victor Glover. [3:21] He's the first Black man to go on a lunar mission. [3:24] Um, and one of the other people up there, Christina Koch, [3:27] is the first woman to go on one. [3:30] We love her. [3:31] We love her. [3:32] You know, she fixed the toilet. [3:33] Very important. [3:34] The toilet on Artemis II broke within... [3:36] They were in the air for maybe 40 minutes, maybe. [3:37] The 5G works, but not the toilet. [3:39] The 5G works, the toilet didn't work, it broke. [3:41] Let a woman do it because she fixed the toilet. [3:43] Someone had to fix it. [3:44] Shout out to Christina. [3:45] Listen to Glover talking about the history-making moment they're in. [3:49] Oh, yeah. [3:49] Young brown boys and girls can look at me and go, [3:51] hey, he looks like me and he's doing what? [3:53] And that's great. I love that, [3:55] but I also hope we are pushing the other direction [3:57] that one day we don't have to talk about these first, [4:00] that one day this is just, and listen to this, [4:03] that this is the human history. [4:05] It's about human history. [4:07] It's the story of humanity, [4:08] not Black history, not women's history, [4:10] but that it becomes human history. [4:11] That's not the day we're in. [4:12] Come on, Victor Glover, come on, come on. [4:15] Okay, but people on the internet, [4:16] I am people on the internet, [4:18] can't stop talking about this man on the livestream last week, [4:22] putting on lotion in space. [4:24] We have no excuses to be ashy. [4:25] There is no excuse to be ashy. [4:27] Matter of fact, I'll ask for some lotion [4:29] before we got started. [4:30] I was like, Victor Glover would want me to be moisturized, child. [4:34] It is very, very important. [4:36] The world is terrible right now. [4:37] Like, we're gonna talk about Iran later. [4:38] There's ICE updates. [4:40] Like, everything seems so crazy. [4:41] You know, I myself, frankly, had a little personal breakdown [4:43] prior to doing this podcast today. [4:46] And look at her. Shake it on. [4:47] Well, you know something, we gotta show up to work. [4:49] You were coming, so it wasn't like I could reschedule. [4:52] Even I thought about it. [4:54] But I think so many people have been galvanized [4:57] by this mission, Artemis II. [5:00] Because it's a reminder that even though crazy things [5:03] are happening in the world, terrible things are happening, [5:05] extraordinary things are still possible. [5:08] In the midst of all the chaos, four people are going to the moon! [5:13] Well, they're circling the moon. [5:14] Around the moon, because Artemis III will be the mission [5:17] where we actually go to the moon. [5:18] It's such a good reminder that we are, as humans, [5:21] capable of terrible atrocities and also amazing possibility, [5:25] which is what we're seeing here. [5:27] And so it's a good reminder. [5:27] Maybe we think about that instead of this next topic. [5:30] Well, Iran, it does remain the biggest news story. [5:35] The president is playing this like, [5:37] we're leading up to the finale of The Apprentice, [5:39] the mid-season finale. [5:40] The worst mid-season finale, where he's just like, [5:43] I might bomb them. I might not. [5:45] Stay tuned. 8 p.m. [5:46] And also, maybe I'll do a war cry. [5:48] I don't know. [5:48] Maybe I'll do a war cry. [5:49] You know, this is a terrible Donald Trump impression, by the way. [5:52] But I mean, the dramatization of it is on brand for him. [5:55] I think it's dramatization. [5:57] Oh, God. Did I say dramatization? [5:59] Yeah. We're gonna leave that in there, though. [6:00] I have a... [6:01] It's a learning opportunity. [6:02] I went to a good Catholic school, too, so, you know... [6:05] Well, I went to public school, so... [6:06] They taught us that. [6:07] ...the nuns are not pleased with that. [6:08] The dramatization... [6:10] Thank you. Get me together. [6:11] The dramatization of it is, I think, intentional on his part. [6:15] But it's also a major news story, as we're talking about it today. [6:18] It'll be a major news story when y'all listen to this [6:19] on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. [6:21] Because as we're recording this, [6:23] Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, the New York Times, [6:25] they just dropped some new reporting [6:27] about how Trump's war in Iran started. [6:29] Get the paper, Eugene. Where is the paper, baby? [6:31] Ooh! First of all, they got a book coming out. [6:33] This is a good teaser for the book. [6:35] I'm about to order it right now. [6:36] I've already pre-ordered mine. [6:38] Headline, how Trump took the U.S. to war with Iran. [6:42] Eugene. [6:43] Netanyahu comes. [6:44] He talks to Trump. [6:45] Where were they meeting? [6:46] There's information they met in the Situation Room, [6:47] which is not usually where foreign leaders meet. [6:49] No. No. [6:50] Um, but I thought the most interesting thing [6:53] was the next day, also in the Situation Room. [6:55] Mr. Trump joined the meeting. [6:57] Mr. Ratcliffe briefed him on the assessment [6:59] of what Netanyahu was telling them. [7:01] The CIA director used one word to describe [7:03] the Israeli Prime Minister's regime change scenarios. [7:07] Farcical. [7:08] At that point, Mr. Rubio cut in, quote, [7:10] in other words, is bullshit, he said. [7:13] The president turns to General Cain. [7:15] General, what do you think? [7:17] General Cain replied, [7:18] Sir, this is, in my experience, [7:20] standard operating procedure for the Israelis. [7:22] They oversell, and their plans are not always well-developed. [7:25] They know they need us, and that's why they're hard-selling. [7:28] Now, there are a lot of things that are interesting about this. [7:30] We have said over and over and have heard and people have reported [7:33] that Netanyahu pushed Donald Trump to make these decisions. [7:37] At some point, Marco Rubio said that then they had to backtrack. [7:39] Israel attacked them. [7:40] They hit us first, and we waited for them to hit us. [7:43] We would suffer more casualties and more deaths. [7:45] Mr. President, did Israel force your hand to launch these strikes against Iran? [7:49] Did that any of the United States before? [7:51] No, I might have forced their hand. [7:55] You see, we were having negotiations with these lunatics, [8:00] and it was my opinion that they were going to attack first. [8:02] They were going to attack if we didn't do it. [8:04] But I think the thing that's most interesting... [8:06] When we said that, somebody tried to say we were being anti-Semitic, [8:08] and I just continue to let you know these are just the facts. [8:11] The fact that they were able to get quotes and felt comfortable enough [8:15] to put General Cain, Marco Rubio, Ratcliffe in quotation marks, [8:20] says that the highest levels... [8:21] The president? [8:22] The president of the United States, [8:24] the highest levels of the government are talking to them, talking to them. [8:29] It's actually crazy work. [8:31] It's absolutely crazy work. [8:32] Um, read the reporting if you haven't read it. [8:35] But to me, Eugene, what this does, it just crystallizes, frankly, [8:41] what we all know to be true, is that the president took us to war [8:46] for no real reason. [8:47] We do not have to be in this war. [8:49] Gas... [8:49] No report that it was imminent. [8:51] No report... [8:51] I don't... [8:52] Imminent did not show up in the document. [8:54] I didn't see that. [8:55] Okay? [8:55] Gas prices are up for no damn reason. [8:58] The gas prices at home are getting dramatic. [9:01] Okay? [9:02] Dramatic. [9:03] I said earlier, I've been talking to market watchers and analysts [9:06] about how much gas is up. [9:07] And I also had my own personal experience at the pump, Eugene. [9:09] Now, y'all know Eugene does not drive. [9:10] I don't. [9:11] Because I'm bad at it. [9:12] It's not that I'm bougie. [9:13] It's that I'm actually not a good driver. [9:14] I think it's boring. [9:15] Okay. [9:16] I don't... [9:16] I need it up. [9:17] That is... [9:18] That is so first world. [9:19] I cannot even describe. [9:21] I think driving is boring. [9:22] Okay, well, to the people out there [9:24] that don't have the ability to choose not to drive. [9:26] The way my ADHD is set up... [9:28] And he don't take the bus. [9:29] I get on a scooter. [9:30] He's taking a scooter or a black car. [9:31] I get not always a black car. [9:33] She's the black car. [9:34] But I drive my car. [9:35] That being said, [9:36] you don't understand what the gas is at the pump, child. [9:39] I know it's terrible. [9:40] Gas is terrible. [9:40] I went and got gas this past Saturday. [9:43] How much was it? [9:43] It was 619. [9:45] Now, I got to put the gas that, you know, [9:48] the gas has these little numbers on it. [9:49] The gas in my car has to be 91 or above. [9:52] So, I can't put the 89 in there, [9:54] even though I wanted to. [9:55] 89 was not $60. [9:56] You're like, how can I get away with this? [9:57] It was a little cheaper. [9:58] But if I am concerned about the gas prices, [10:00] I can only imagine how folks all across this country [10:03] are feeling. [10:03] Like, the numbers are insane. [10:05] And rising every single day. [10:07] It is bad. It's rising now. [10:08] What the people I'm talking to are telling me [10:11] is that gas could go all the way up to $10 a gallon [10:13] in the next two months. [10:14] Like, that's crazy. [10:16] And so, what the experts have said, [10:19] because, you know, I'm calling people and asking them. [10:21] What the experts have said is the way [10:23] where you can pay the least amount possible [10:25] is just fill up every time you can. [10:27] Every time you go a little bit of a quarter gallon. [10:30] A little quarter gallon down, [10:31] go fill up your quarter gallon. [10:32] Because, baby, if you're waiting to fill up half a tank, [10:34] if you're waiting to fill up a whole tank, [10:35] it is going to be disastrous. [10:37] As a matter of fact, if you are listening [10:39] to this podcast in your car [10:41] and you drive past the gas station, stop. [10:43] Stop and get you some gas while you can. [10:45] Get it right now. [10:46] Get it right now. [10:47] Because the gas is going up. [10:48] And if gas is up, that means fertilizer is up. [10:50] That fuel is up. Diesel is up. [10:52] That means it's gonna cost more to get the goods. [10:56] Amazon. [10:57] It costs more to get the food out the ground [10:58] because the fertilizer is up and shipping it is up. [11:00] It's all up. [11:01] As we've said over and over on this podcast, [11:03] the reason gas is up, [11:05] Trump and Netanyahu started bombing Iran without a plan. [11:08] Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan have let us know that. [11:11] Now, 20% of the world's oil is struggling [11:14] as it tries to get through the Strait of Hormuz out into the market, [11:17] which means there's less oil for everyone. [11:20] Because, well, you guys probably understand this. [11:22] The president doesn't seem to get it. [11:23] That the price goes up because we live in a global oil market. [11:27] Less oil in one place impacts the whole planet [11:30] and how everybody's gas and oil costs. [11:32] It's such a good point. [11:33] The gas prices, the oil prices, [11:34] it is definitely a factor in the unpopularity of the war. [11:37] There's a recent survey, Eugene, from the Pew Center, [11:41] and it has six in 10 Americans disapproving, okay? [11:45] But that didn't stop Donald Trump from giving a speech on Monday [11:48] to, I don't know, ostensibly tell the public [11:51] what happened with the missing airman who was behind enemy lines [11:54] for, according to the president, almost 48 hours. [11:57] He gave this whole... [11:58] I mean, literally, the entire press conference [12:00] could have been a background call given by the staff. [12:02] It probably should have been. [12:04] I didn't understand what was going on [12:06] from the White House press briefing room. I didn't. [12:08] And what's crazy was after he said the war has gone great, [12:11] he threatened the media for reporting that there was a missing airman [12:14] in the first place. Listen to this. [12:16] They didn't know there was somebody missing [12:17] until this leaker gave the information. [12:20] So whoever it was, we think we'll be able to find it out [12:22] because we're going to go to the media company that released it, [12:28] and we're going to say, [12:29] national security, give it up, or go to jail. [12:33] And we know who... [12:35] And you know who we're talking about. [12:36] It's the president of the United States saying [12:39] he's going to jail reporters for doing our damn jobs. [12:41] I don't know who he's talking about, [12:43] because multiple outlets reported on the Air Force Colonel [12:45] who had to be rescued after Iran shot his plane out of the sky. [12:49] More importantly, Iranian state media had videos of the wreckage [12:52] and U.S. planes searching first. [12:53] And, Simone, I feel like the thing... [12:55] We are talking about it a lot, but I think the world [12:58] and the coverage around this is not clear enough. [13:02] At 8.06 a.m. on Tuesday, April 7th, President Trump posted, [13:07] quote, a whole civilization will die tonight, [13:10] never to be brought back again. [13:11] That is the president of the United States saying, [13:16] because when you say a whole civilization, [13:17] that is a genocidal... [13:19] That is genocide. [13:19] It is genocide. [13:20] It is a war. [13:21] Getting rid of a whole civilization. [13:22] He is not saying, I'm going to kill the people of Iran. [13:25] He is not saying, I'm going to take out the leadership. [13:28] He is not saying, we are going to engage in regular war activity. [13:33] He is saying, I'm going to wipe these people off the map. [13:36] And he's putting an 8 p.m. Eastern time deadline on it. [13:39] But that is the dramatization that I was talking about. [13:43] He thinks this is an episode of The Apprentice. [13:45] But to be very clear, the thing about the threatening [13:49] of the media organizations and the journalists, [13:51] we can never allow the extraordinary to become ordinary. [13:54] Right. [13:54] And it is extraordinary for the president of the United States [13:57] to stand at the podium in the White House press briefing room [14:01] and say, we're going to ask the media organizations [14:03] to tell us to give up their sources. [14:06] And if they do not give up the sources, [14:08] we are going to jail them. [14:09] There was an episode of Madam Secretary about this. [14:11] Okay, take it all the way back. [14:12] CBS, look it up. [14:13] Yeah. [14:13] But to be very, very clear, the misinformation, [14:16] we often talk about it, the disinformation, [14:18] what's happening online is running rampant with this. [14:20] You would have... [14:21] There are people out there, [14:21] I think some of them are bots, okay? [14:23] Mm-hmm. [14:23] But there are people out there on social media [14:26] that believe what the president said, [14:27] that the journalists who wrote these stories [14:30] put the servicemen and women in danger. [14:33] And that is not true. [14:34] You know what put them in danger? [14:35] The president getting us into a fucking war. [14:37] And there we go. [14:39] I think we have to move on. [14:42] Before we get fired. [14:42] You know, I just... [14:44] Okay. [14:46] I don't want to forget to talk about something [14:47] that I think the administration wants us [14:49] to forget about, Eugene. [14:50] ICE, ICE, ICE, okay? [14:53] It continues to separate people from their families. [14:56] ICE is still working right now. [14:58] A newlywed woman who went onto her husband's post, [15:00] this is Fort Polk in Louisiana, [15:03] to get her military ID was detained last week. [15:05] She's been in the U.S. since she was a toddler. [15:08] She got a deportation order when she was 22 months old. [15:13] Applied for DACA in 2020, [15:15] when Trump decided to stop accepting applications. [15:18] One of the things that's so disturbing [15:22] is that marrying a U.S. service member, [15:26] marrying someone who sacrificed [15:29] and continues to sacrifice their life [15:30] for the good of the country, [15:32] used to be a way to protect you [15:34] from a lot of the bad things that can happen [15:36] when it comes to deportation. [15:37] As a kid, growing up on posts all across the South, [15:40] we had all women from all over the world [15:43] who were married to men who were military folks. [15:46] And that I never thought about. [15:49] They never thought about the idea [15:51] that they would be deported, [15:52] that they would be snatched from their husbands, [15:55] who are military service men. [15:57] This is unsettling me. I am unsettled by this, Eugene. [15:59] I was looking... [16:02] The woman wasn't a criminal, was she? [16:03] Nope. [16:04] She hadn't committed any heinous crimes? [16:06] Nope. [16:07] Did she rob anyone? [16:08] Did she murder anyone? [16:09] Okay, I thought that the administration told us [16:11] that they were focusing on the worst of the worst. [16:13] So why was this woman prioritized for deportation? [16:17] It's almost like they lied about that. [16:18] It's almost like they were not telling us the truth. [16:20] Mm. [16:21] And now we even have the new Secretary of Homeland Security, [16:24] Mark Wayne Mullen. [16:25] He was actually sworn in on March 24th. [16:27] Now, during his Senate confirmation, Eugene, [16:29] he was specifically asked some very key questions, [16:32] and he made some promises. [16:34] He would not be the first person in this administration [16:37] to say one thing in front of the Senate. [16:38] Or in the government. [16:39] Okay. [16:39] And do something else later. [16:40] On the Supreme Court. [16:41] Well, clock it. [16:42] Okay. [16:43] But this is what he said. [16:44] First, he said ICE officers won't go into homes or businesses [16:47] without a judicial warrant anymore. [16:49] Okay? [16:49] That means that they're not going to go without a judge's sign-off, [16:52] that there's cause to arrest a person, right? [16:55] Unless they're chasing somebody. [16:57] Sure. [16:58] Yeah. [16:59] And two, he said he will never work against the mayors [17:02] and law enforcement of sanctuary cities. [17:04] On Monday, CNN had reporting that efforts to lease or buy warehouses [17:08] and turn them into detention centers on pause, [17:11] that Mullen's staff is reviewing those projects. [17:13] However, on Monday evening, Mark Wayne Mullen, DHS secretary, [17:18] went on Fox News and told Bret Baier something completely different [17:21] about sanctuary cities. [17:22] If they're a sanctuary city and they're receiving international flights, [17:27] and we're asking them to partner with us at the airport, [17:30] but once they walk out of the airport, [17:32] they're not going to enforce immigration policy, [17:35] maybe we need to have a really hard look at that [17:37] because we need to focus on cities that want to work with us. [17:39] So you're saying that big cities that are sanctuary cities [17:42] that have a big airport, they might lose their customs? [17:45] Well, I'm saying we're going to have to start prioritizing things at some point. [17:48] Look, I just, the sanctuary, now I feel like, now I feel like, [17:54] um, now I feel like Nicole Wallace, she likes to cuss on her podcast. [17:57] Now I feel like I'm about to cuss on her. [17:59] The sanctuary cities argument is some bullshit because [18:02] in, there is not a, in every city across this country, [18:06] the law enforcement officers will tell you that they do cooperate. [18:11] They are suggesting that the local law enforcement are not cooperating with the feds, [18:16] and that's not true. Now, what they aren't doing is, like, [18:19] combing through people's, like, random social media, [18:22] asking people to show their papers when they pull them over [18:25] at a stop sign or a taillight. [18:27] No, they're not racially profiling, but goodness gracious! [18:30] Stated priority is deporting, quote, [18:32] the most egregious felons and criminals. [18:35] But then he also makes clear in that same Brett Berry interview, Simone, [18:38] that the net is wider than that. [18:40] Anyone who has missed court dates, had an asylum claim denied, [18:44] or is in the country illegal, is subject to removal. [18:47] Quote, if you're in this country illegally, [18:49] you have a duty to support. [18:50] So that's everybody. [18:51] Every damn body. [18:53] Before we go off of this, you told me earlier, [18:56] this, I don't know when you told me, a couple days ago, [18:58] was it yesterday, that you have been, [19:00] that you have some reporting from what Democrats have been saying. [19:03] What are these Democrats saying about Mark Wayne Mullen? [19:05] Now, I think after this interview, I'm gonna go back to them, [19:07] because I think they might have some questions. [19:08] But what did they say to you before? [19:09] What they said originally was that Mark Wayne Mullen [19:11] made them feel a little bit safer and more confident, [19:14] because of how, what he said in some of his... [19:17] Exactly. The face she's making. [19:18] Can we zoom in? [19:19] Renee, on the face my girl is making, please. [19:21] Yes, on camera three. [19:23] Um, because at the end of the day, [19:25] they felt he was going to be better than Kristi Noem, [19:28] because he said the judicial warrants. [19:31] But like, I don't, I don't read that interview [19:34] with Brett Baer... [19:34] Democrats should not relax! [19:36] Mark Wayne Mullen works for Donald Trump, okay? [19:40] So, all of these folks that are convincing themselves... [19:43] And Stephen Miller. [19:43] And Stephen, come on, clock that! [19:45] So, all of these folks, Democrats, Republicans, [19:47] independents or otherwise, that are convincing themselves [19:49] that, oh, somebody else, whether it's Mark Wayne Mullen at DHS, [19:53] whether it's, um, whoever gets to be the next attorney general [19:56] since Pam Bondi is out, you can change the players all you want. [20:00] The game is still the same, the coach is still the same, [20:02] it's still the same team! [20:04] Like, we gotta get with it! [20:05] Get with it, people! [20:05] Because at the end of the day, all the decisions are being made [20:07] from the White House. They're not being made in these agencies [20:10] like they usually would be. [20:11] I'm sorry, I'm very fired up about this, [20:13] but I just, people cannot believe that, [20:15] because you're gonna swap some people out, [20:17] they're like, all of a sudden, [20:17] this person is gonna make it better. [20:19] You know what? This stressed me out, Eugene. [20:20] Can we switch to talk about some culture? [20:21] Yes. [20:22] We gotta talk about some culture. [20:23] Yes. [20:23] I need a break. I need a break. [20:25] I need a break. [20:26] When we come back, folks, we will have, very excited, [20:29] Eugene booked this person. [20:31] We love, we love Jeff. [20:32] Jeff! [20:33] The author of Black Out Loud, [20:35] the revolutionary history of Black comedy from [20:38] vaudeville to 90s sitcoms. [20:41] Here with us, Jeff Bennett is joining the group chat. [20:43] We'll be right back. [20:44] Welcome back, and welcome Jeff Bennett, [20:47] formerly NBC's White House correspondent, [20:49] NPR's DC reporter. [20:51] Now he co-hosts PBS NewsHour. [20:52] Y'all seen him. [20:53] In his spare time, for some reason. [20:56] What spare time you got? [20:57] Exactly. [20:58] Created his spare time, [20:59] and then wrote a book about comedy, the 90s, [21:01] and how society talks to itself about things [21:04] it's not ready to face directly. [21:05] Seems very timely. [21:06] Thank you. [21:06] This is called the group chat, [21:07] so we appreciate you coming to the group chat. [21:09] Thank you for having me. [21:09] It's so great to see you all. [21:10] Can I just read from the jacket of this book? [21:12] First of all, the cover of this book is absolutely amazing. [21:13] Isn't it so pretty? [21:14] The jacket of the book, y'all. [21:17] Oh, let me not F up the jacket. [21:18] Black comedians have long played a pivotal role [21:21] in shaping the American sense of humor. [21:24] We go from the minstrel shows to, like, the 90s. [21:27] And then to Issa Rae and Quinta. [21:29] Right, right. [21:30] But I got to the minstrel shows in a roundabout way. [21:33] I started with a focus on the 90s, [21:35] and the lingering question was, [21:36] how was it when I was growing up, [21:38] you saw all of these different sitcoms, [21:40] all of these, like, different visions [21:42] and variations of Black life on the air at the same time? [21:45] Yeah. [21:46] So that was sort of my research project [21:47] in putting this book together. [21:48] And I realized I could not tell the story of the 90s responsibly [21:52] without going all the way back to the beginning. [21:54] Yeah. [21:54] And the beginning of Black performance. [21:56] Why couldn't you? [21:56] Black comedic performance. [21:57] Because every generation builds on the previous generation. [22:00] Right. [22:01] And in many ways, you have so many of these comedians, [22:03] whether it's Richard Pryor, or Moms Mabley, or Dave Chappelle, [22:06] they are in some way responding to the minstrel era. [22:12] And if you go back and watch some of that stuff now, [22:14] I mean, it's degrading. [22:15] It is dehumanizing. [22:17] It was also big business. [22:19] It was mass entertainment at the time. [22:21] And it's this crazy contradiction [22:23] because you have these comedians who were forced to parody Black life. [22:27] And so that is the beginning of Black comedic performance in this country. [22:31] And that's where the book starts. [22:32] Now, Jeff, when people think about Jeff Bennett, [22:34] because they do think about you, you're very famous. [22:36] When they think about you, they do not think comedy. [22:39] Yeah. [22:39] They think, uh, politics. [22:42] They think sitting outside of the White House doing hits for NBC. [22:45] Not that they put you in a box. [22:46] NBC in the old days. [22:48] But this is something... [22:50] People that know you know you're funny. [22:51] Yeah. [22:51] But like, talk about why you wanted to write this book [22:54] and not a political book. [22:55] Yeah, how did you come to do this? [22:57] Because it was the book that I'd always wanted to read [23:00] that had not been written. [23:01] Mm-hmm. [23:02] One. [23:03] Two, even though I've covered national politics, [23:06] I've also covered the culture. [23:07] Right. [23:07] And I think cultural coverage, especially these days, [23:10] is more... [23:11] There you go. [23:11] It's the whole podcast! [23:12] Come on now! [23:13] It's the whole thing, right? [23:14] Tell the people! [23:14] It's... [23:15] There is a durability and an endurance to our culture [23:18] that does not exist in our politics. [23:21] And again, I had this question, [23:22] how did all of these shows exist? [23:23] It could not have been a coincidence. [23:25] Right. [23:25] We work in television. [23:26] We know enough to know enough about... [23:28] You could not have a show like Fresh Prince, In Living Color, [23:31] Living Single, Martin, Arsenio On In Late Night, [23:34] all simultaneously. [23:35] So how did that happen? [23:36] How did it happen? [23:37] Well... [23:38] Fox was desperate. [23:39] It was a... [23:39] It was a... [23:40] That's right. [23:40] It was a business decision, like anything else. [23:43] Oh, because we make money. [23:44] We as in Black people. [23:45] Correct. [23:45] Black folks have always been overrepresented [23:48] in terms of TV viewers. [23:50] And at the advent of Fox Broadcasting Network, [23:52] and we should explain for folks, back then, [23:54] the Fox Broadcasting Network and Fox News, [23:56] those are two separate things. [23:57] There are generations of, especially younger people, [23:59] who will hear me say Fox and think Fox News. [24:01] That's not what this was. [24:03] Barry Diller launched a fourth broadcast TV network. [24:07] And he told me that when he looked across the landscape [24:09] of primetime entertainment, [24:10] what ABC, CBS, and NBC were putting on the air [24:13] was basically indistinguishable. [24:15] Yeah. [24:15] And he knew that to launch a new network, [24:17] it had to be different. [24:18] It had to be bold. [24:19] It had to skew young, urban. [24:21] We know what urban means. [24:22] Black. [24:22] Yeah, and so the first pilot that got greenlit [24:26] was for a show called Not The Cosby Show, [24:29] because word had gone out in Hollywood [24:31] that Barry Diller wanted stuff [24:32] that was not like what's on the other networks. [24:34] So if you're an enterprising producer, [24:36] I'm going to make it really easy for a network exec [24:38] to greenlight my show. [24:39] I'm going to call my pilot Not The Cosby Show. [24:42] That show becomes Married With Children. [24:44] So when Fox finds success... [24:45] Which is definitely not The Cosby Show. [24:47] Not at all. [24:48] So they find success with Married With Children, [24:50] Simpsons, cops, and that's what opens the door [24:53] to a Keenan Ivory Wayans with The Living Color. [24:55] Yeah. [24:55] You write that at that time, Black and white audiences [24:59] are basically watching the same shows. [25:01] Mm-hmm. [25:02] But at some point, Black folks finally had options. [25:05] And I think that... [25:07] And you hit on this in your very first answer, [25:09] but the idea that we had options [25:11] to see different aspects of Black life, right? [25:13] And not just, like, a doctor made to a lawyer [25:16] with all their fun kids. [25:17] Right. [25:18] But also, like, Will Smith acting crazy on Fresh Prince. [25:21] Yeah, with a rich uncle. [25:23] Before he's slapping people. [25:23] With a rich uncle and a rich auntie. [25:25] Yeah. [25:25] And we should be clear, Black folks... [25:27] He's... I just want to know, [25:28] Eugene is using auntie as a slur towards me. [25:30] Not as a slur. [25:31] I just think that she... [25:32] It is a derogatory term. [25:34] Auntie is a derogatory term when Eugene says it to me. [25:37] I mean, it's... [25:38] But why? [25:38] Because there are people who embrace it. [25:41] You need to embrace it. [25:42] Young auntie. [25:43] I wouldn't go there. [25:44] I wouldn't tell her she needs to embrace it. [25:45] She is too late. [25:47] Thank you, Jeff. [25:47] She does embrace it. [25:48] She is Lynn's auntie behavior. [25:51] There were aunties on television. [25:54] But to Eugene's point, [25:55] I think the range was really interesting and important. [25:57] And it feels like, I don't know, [26:00] like, there's juxtaposing the 90s [26:02] with, like, what's on TV right now is kind of like... [26:04] Yeah. [26:05] It's like we had a heyday [26:06] and then the heyday went away [26:08] and it felt like it's so hard to get things made. [26:10] And now there's, like, bits and pieces. [26:12] Like, the Life and Times of Reggie Dinkins is on TV. [26:15] Abbott Elementary. [26:16] A Different World is coming back in a different way. [26:19] Right. [26:20] On Netflix. [26:21] Abbott Elementary. [26:23] But there... [26:23] It feels like that there were many more shows back in the day. [26:28] Yeah. [26:28] And we should say, [26:29] there had been Black folks on TV well before the 90s. [26:32] Right. [26:33] Because some people have asked me, [26:33] why didn't you write about Good Times or 227? [26:36] Good. [26:37] So good. [26:37] But what's specific about the 90s is that you had Black showrunners, [26:42] you had Black producers, [26:44] who were intentional about being specific and authentic in their storytelling. [26:48] And that did not exist before that era. [26:51] And that's how you get the genius of a Martin Lawrence. [26:54] That's how you get the genius, again, of, like, [26:56] a Keenan Ivory Wayans. [26:57] And so we're seeing some of that now, [26:59] like Quinta Brunson with Abbott Elementary, which you mentioned. [27:02] But even though there is more, there's more volume now, [27:05] there's more content, there's more stuff to watch, [27:08] the impact isn't there. [27:09] Because everybody's in their own silos. [27:11] There is no monoculture anymore. [27:12] There's too much. [27:13] You can't have the impact. [27:14] I feel like the last, like, quote unquote, [27:15] Black show that we watched together was Scandal. [27:17] Insecure. [27:18] I was going to say Insecure. [27:19] Insecure. [27:19] We watched Insecure together as a culture, if you will. [27:22] Yeah. [27:22] And you could talk about it on Twitter in real time. [27:24] Like, that was the thing. [27:24] And they hit on real issues. [27:26] I mean, your point, like, the culture and politics [27:28] is intimately intertwined, I would argue. [27:31] But also culture leads politics. [27:33] They talked about real issues on these sitcoms in the 90s. [27:35] I'm thinking about the different world episodes [27:37] about apartheid or about HIV. [27:41] Excuse me, Josie, what's it like? [27:43] I mean, how do you feel every day? [27:46] Some days, fine. [27:49] Other days, not so fine. [27:52] I take a lot of medicine. [27:54] I don't, um, I don't understand. [27:58] Man, this is not a woman's disease. [28:03] Tell that to the 16,000 women who have it with me. [28:06] They use drugs and they do perverted things. [28:11] AIDS is not a moral judgment. [28:15] I mean, there's a whole Rodney King episode. [28:16] Come on now. [28:17] Yeah, yeah. [28:18] In real time, um, really just dissecting [28:22] what the people who were watching, frankly, [28:25] that looked like the folks on the screen, [28:27] what they were feeling and what they knew to be true. [28:30] I just think... [28:31] And they felt like full care. [28:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [28:33] Yeah, yeah. [28:35] And that was intentional. [28:36] One of the great things about this book [28:37] was I got to interview all of the people [28:39] who I grew up just watching and enjoying. [28:41] Like, who did you talk to? [28:42] Sinbad. [28:43] I had chased Sinbad for years for an interview. [28:45] How was he doing? [28:46] He was sick. [28:46] He's doing well. [28:46] I think he's about to go back out on tour, [28:48] which is incredible. [28:49] So folks should know Sinbad had a stroke. [28:50] You can get us some tickets. [28:51] I will try. [28:52] Yeah, please do. [28:52] Thank you. [28:53] And, you know, he was reluctant to do interviews [28:55] for a very long time. [28:56] And then the original cast of A Different World [28:58] started doing an HBCU tour. [29:00] And he popped up remotely [29:01] when the cast went to Morehouse. [29:03] And so I said to myself, [29:04] all right, well, [29:04] if he's gonna zoom into Morehouse College, [29:06] he'd probably be to talk to me. [29:08] And he did. [29:09] But he talked about the thing that you mentioned. [29:11] He said that, you know, [29:12] comedy has a way of lowering our defenses. [29:14] Yeah. [29:15] And on his show in particular, [29:16] A Different World, [29:17] they were intentional about [29:19] trying to slip in kernels of truth, [29:21] trying to slip in some, [29:22] like a social consciousness, [29:23] but wrap it all in a joke. [29:25] Because these shows had to be funny. [29:26] They had to be engaging. [29:27] They had to have people [29:28] tuning in week after week. [29:29] But on that show in particular, [29:31] it was a show with heart. [29:33] Shout out to Debbie Allen. [29:34] Yeah, 100%. [29:36] When I think about the 90s, [29:37] I actually get pissed. [29:38] How old were you? [29:39] What do you know about the 90s? [29:40] What do you know? [29:41] You younger than me. [29:42] No, see, bully. [29:45] I think about living single. [29:47] Uh-huh. [29:47] Yeah. [29:48] And because when people [29:49] talk about the 90s, [29:50] the show that everyone brings up, [29:51] a lot of people bring up, [29:53] is friends. [29:53] Say it, Eugene! [29:54] Say it, Eugene! [29:55] Friends literally stole everything. [29:57] For those of you [29:59] that have not watched living single, [30:00] first of all, [30:01] pause this. [30:02] Go watch all the seasons. [30:03] Queen Latifah. [30:04] But Queen Latifah, [30:05] Khadijah, [30:06] she's a journalist. [30:07] Erica Alexander. [30:08] Like, they are friends and cousins [30:11] and they live together. [30:12] There are two men [30:14] and three and four women. [30:16] Like, they start dating each other. [30:17] Yeah. [30:18] Don't that sound damn familiar? [30:19] Because they watched [30:21] Living Single and they were like, [30:23] oh, let's do Friends. [30:24] Is that true? [30:24] Because people would be like, [30:25] oh, that's a ledge. [30:26] That is absolutely true. [30:27] That's not just us saying that. [30:28] That is people connected [30:29] to both shows who told me that. [30:32] That Living Single was [30:33] the blueprint for Friends. [30:34] Absolutely. [30:35] And what's so interesting about that... [30:36] That is just a blueprint. [30:37] They stole it. [30:38] Oh, there are some plot lines [30:39] that were lifted entirely [30:40] from Living Single. [30:41] But the woman who created that show, [30:43] Yvette Lee Bowser, [30:44] got her start as a writer [30:45] in the writer's room [30:46] of a different world, [30:47] working alongside Debbie Allen. [30:49] And Queen Latifah and Kim Coles [30:51] had development deals with Fox. [30:53] And the network kept giving them writers [30:56] who didn't really understand them [30:57] and who didn't get it. [30:59] And when they put Yvette [31:01] with the two of them, [31:02] that's how you got that show. [31:03] Yeah. [31:03] And Erika Alexander's role, [31:05] she told me, [31:06] there was pushback from the network. [31:07] They said, [31:08] you don't necessarily need [31:08] to have this Maxine Shaw character. [31:10] Why don't you write her out? [31:11] Oh, because she's a black woman [31:12] who's powerful and a lawyer? [31:13] A black lawyer. [31:14] Well, let's talk about that. [31:15] Maxine Shaw was an iconic character. [31:16] Maxine Shaw, dark-skinned with braids, [31:18] on TV as a high-powered attorney, [31:21] that had never existed on television before. [31:23] There is now an entire lane of academic research [31:26] that looks at the Maxine Shaw effect. [31:28] That's amazing. [31:28] And it speaks to the number of women, [31:30] black women in particular, [31:31] who were inspired to go [31:32] into high-powered professions [31:34] because they were able to play out [31:35] in their mind's eye [31:36] what that would be like [31:37] by watching her character. [31:39] To include Ayanna Pressley, [31:41] to include Stacey Abrams, [31:43] to include Kamala Harris, [31:44] who told Erika Alexander that, [31:46] who told me. [31:46] So, I mean, you know, [31:48] it's remarkable. [31:49] It's remarkable, really. [31:50] We were talking about this concept [31:51] of white famous earlier. [31:54] Are you familiar? [31:56] So is it black famous or white? [31:58] I've heard black famous. [31:59] Both. [31:59] Both. [32:00] Well, there's black famous [32:01] and white famous. [32:01] So what's the white famous [32:02] is white folks who are only famous [32:04] among white folks? [32:04] Well, I guess white famous [32:05] is black people who are... [32:07] Yes. [32:07] White famous is mainstream. [32:09] So like Mia Long and Morris Chestnut, [32:12] some people would probably say [32:13] are black famous. [32:14] Yes, but Morris Chestnut [32:15] was just on Watson. [32:16] Yeah, he had that whole... [32:16] And that's canceled now. [32:17] They got canceled, yes. [32:18] But, but I would argue [32:21] for some people, [32:21] he was a little white famous. [32:22] But there, a lot of the... [32:24] Like, Living Single was black famous. [32:29] But he was... [32:29] I'll say this, though. [32:30] Those shows were... [32:32] A Different World was number two [32:34] for almost a decade [32:35] behind The Cosby Show. [32:36] So the Nielsen ratings [32:37] were Cosby Show, [32:38] A Different World, [32:39] and Cheers. [32:40] And it was like that [32:41] for forever and ever. [32:41] Amen. [32:42] But when people talk [32:43] about the best shows, [32:43] they talk about Cheers. [32:44] They do not talk [32:45] about the mother ones. [32:45] But go ahead. [32:46] Well, because... [32:46] Yeah. [32:47] But my point is, [32:48] these shows... [32:48] Well, they're not [32:48] talking about The Cosby Show. [32:49] These shows were black shows [32:50] with black casts [32:51] and black producers, [32:52] but they also enjoyed broad appeal. [32:54] And one of the takeaways [32:55] in the book is that [32:56] because they were so specific, [32:58] because they were so authentic [32:59] in the stories [33:00] that they were telling, [33:01] there was a universality in that. [33:03] And it's important [33:04] because for us watching those shows, [33:05] it was a mirror, right? [33:06] You were seeing yourself reflected. [33:08] And for everybody else, [33:09] it was a window into a life, [33:11] into an experience or a joke [33:12] that they might not have [33:13] otherwise encountered. [33:14] So A Different World [33:15] was white famous. [33:18] A Different World [33:18] was absolutely white famous. [33:19] Yeah. [33:20] A Different World [33:20] was white famous. [33:21] And I mean, [33:21] you think about Elisa Bonet. [33:23] Yeah. [33:23] You think, like, [33:24] these are global. [33:25] Think about all the people [33:26] that would come on [33:27] a different world. [33:27] Hell, Tupac! [33:28] Tupac! [33:29] Everybody was on that show. [33:30] Everybody was on that show. [33:30] Everybody came on that. [33:31] They came on The Cosby Show. [33:32] And you mentioned Debbie Allen. [33:33] Debbie Allen saved that show. [33:34] Well, she did. [33:35] She did. [33:35] When that show was launched, [33:37] Bill Cosby, [33:38] as it was told to me, [33:39] wasn't sure it was going to be a hit. [33:41] It was basically a spin-off. [33:42] It was a star vehicle [33:43] for Elisa Bonet. [33:44] Because at the time, [33:44] Elisa Bonet was dating Lenny Kravitz. [33:47] She had done this movie [33:48] called Angel Heart [33:49] that was risque. [33:50] And Bill Cosby had a lot [33:51] of issues with it. [33:52] And so she was sort of banished, [33:54] but banished with this show. [33:55] I mean, if you're going to get banished, [33:57] please give me a show. [33:59] Give me a platform if you're going to banish me. [34:01] But The Cosby Show taped in New York, [34:03] he had this show taped in L.A. [34:04] so that if it wasn't a success, [34:06] there was physical distance [34:08] between his show and that show. [34:09] And he could basically say, [34:10] Well, yeah. [34:12] After the first season, [34:13] Felicia Rashad comes to him and says, [34:15] I've been on that set. [34:16] That show is not working. [34:17] And the way you're going to fix it [34:19] is to have my sister come in [34:20] and overhaul it. [34:22] And that's exactly what happened. [34:23] That's what I'm talking about. [34:24] And she went in there [34:25] and was so specific down to the point [34:26] of looking at the pit. [34:27] Remember, like the gatherings? [34:29] And she'd be like, [34:29] This is an HBCU. [34:30] Why is there no hot sauce on these tables? [34:32] Hello? [34:34] Clock it. [34:35] Clock it, Debbie Allen. [34:36] Yeah, clock the lack of hot sauce [34:39] on the tables. [34:39] But I mean, like, details, [34:41] details that small. [34:42] Yeah. [34:42] And that's how you got [34:44] the revamped different world [34:45] that is so culturally resonant. [34:47] You talk about Maxine Shaw effect, [34:49] but also you write about [34:50] how a different world literally changed [34:53] HBCU enrollment numbers. [34:55] Oh, yeah. [34:55] Right? [34:55] It just feels like [34:57] there are no shows nowadays. [34:59] Maybe I'm wrong. [34:59] Maybe there's people that watch Scandal [35:01] and want to be a fixer in D.C., [35:02] but it doesn't feel like [35:04] there are shows that do that, [35:06] that actually go way beyond [35:08] the idea of clothing [35:10] or like the way people talk. [35:12] Talk a little bit about [35:13] the importance of having a show [35:15] on television [35:16] that has people that look like us on it [35:18] and changes the amount of people [35:20] who believe they can go to college. [35:21] It's incredible. [35:22] That's actually insane. [35:23] My brother had gone to Morehouse. [35:24] He's five years older. [35:26] And I knew I was going to end up [35:27] going to Morehouse. [35:27] I wouldn't say that out loud [35:28] at the time, [35:28] but I had a sense of it. [35:29] But for me to be able to watch, [35:31] you know, [35:32] Darryl Bell, [35:32] who played Ron Johnson, [35:33] I sort of saw kinship [35:35] with that character. [35:37] It was huge. [35:37] Now you lowkey look like Darryl Bell. [35:38] Now that he says it. [35:39] Now that he says it. [35:41] Now you're like, [35:42] shut up, shut up, shut up. [35:43] Shut up to Darryl Bell. [35:44] He was the first actor [35:45] who talked to me. [35:45] Because I literally, [35:46] I was like DMing people [35:47] being like, [35:48] I have this idea for a book, [35:49] but I can't do it [35:49] unless you give me an interview. [35:50] Yeah. [35:51] And he was the first person [35:52] to give me time. [35:52] We love that. [35:53] Um, absolutely. [35:54] So, but yeah, no, [35:55] there are no real shows like that [35:57] that do that anymore. [35:58] I mean, maybe The Pit, [35:58] I guess for people [35:59] who are interested in... [36:00] That's not for Black people. [36:01] Not for Black book show. [36:02] Not specifically for Black book. [36:04] I can't even get the word out. [36:06] It's not about Black people, [36:08] but Black people do watch. [36:09] But are Black people in it? [36:11] I watched The Pit [36:12] and I don't think there's one Black doctor. [36:14] What about The Shy? [36:15] The Shy is a movie, [36:16] is a show like that, right? [36:17] Like, lean away from The Shy. [36:19] It's a great show, [36:20] but is The Shy changing [36:21] the way people see themselves? [36:22] No. [36:23] Maybe in Chicago. [36:24] But it's also because people, [36:25] these days, [36:26] there's a markedly [36:27] different experience [36:28] if you're just watching [36:29] something on your phone, [36:30] scrolling. [36:32] As opposed to back in the day, [36:33] sitting down with your family [36:35] in front of the TV [36:36] in the living room. [36:37] And if you got up [36:38] to change the channel, [36:39] it was gonna have [36:39] to be a conversation. [36:40] And so you sit there [36:42] and you watch a show [36:42] and you might not have [36:44] a conversation about it, [36:45] but it sinks [36:46] and it lands with you. [36:47] And to have tens of millions [36:48] of families doing [36:49] that exact same thing [36:50] at roughly the same time, [36:52] that's where you get [36:53] the cultural resonance [36:54] and that's where you get [36:54] a show like A Different World [36:56] being so important [36:57] and actually driving up [36:58] the numbers of people [36:59] who are applying to HBCUs. [37:01] We don't have those [37:02] experiences today. [37:02] There's no more model culture. [37:04] We don't have the same [37:04] shared reference points. [37:05] People are very much [37:06] in their silos. [37:07] And, you know, [37:08] that is one of the things [37:09] I think that has led [37:10] to this moment [37:11] where there's like [37:11] a lack of cultural cohesion. [37:13] Yeah. [37:13] It's the stuff [37:14] that we're watching. [37:15] It's how we consume [37:17] entertainment, [37:18] how we consume media. [37:19] All of that has [37:20] changed dramatically. [37:21] We don't have [37:21] as many shared spaces [37:22] anymore. [37:22] You can literally, [37:23] on social media, [37:24] there's buttons [37:25] where you can choose [37:25] to hide all content [37:26] like this. [37:27] So you are, [37:27] we are actively [37:28] self-selecting [37:29] and putting ourselves [37:30] in the various silos. [37:31] And projections of division. [37:33] Because I don't think, [37:34] and there's a disconnect [37:35] between, [37:35] and you all know this, [37:36] there's a disconnect [37:36] between the way [37:37] our politics is lived [37:39] and the way it's [37:40] perceived and projected. [37:41] I will never forget [37:42] covering the first [37:42] Trump impeachment, [37:44] waiting in the basement [37:44] of the Capitol [37:45] for these lawmakers [37:46] to come out [37:46] from behind closed doors [37:47] and a Democrat [37:48] and Republican [37:49] coming out [37:49] all buddy-buddy, [37:51] joking, [37:51] having a good time. [37:52] One of them walked [37:53] to the camera position [37:54] for Fox News [37:55] and talked about Democrats [37:57] in a way that you would, [37:58] I mean, [37:59] now we would expect, [38:00] right? [38:00] Hit is over, [38:01] goes back, [38:02] buddy-buddy, [38:02] walks back into the room. [38:04] That happens all the time [38:04] at Capitol Hill [38:05] where Democrats and Republicans [38:06] are friendly, [38:07] but they project as if [38:09] they're not [38:10] because there are vested interests [38:11] in having us [38:12] at each other's necks. [38:13] I wonder if I'm gay, [38:16] so Will and Grace, [38:17] I don't know if you guys know. [38:18] What in the world? [38:19] Not I'm gay. [38:20] I'm coming out. [38:21] The nail polish gave it away. [38:22] I'm coming out. [38:22] Breaking news! [38:24] But I think about like Will and Grace [38:27] and Ellen as like seminal moments [38:29] where people watch those shows [38:32] and start to be like, [38:33] you know, maybe these gays [38:34] ain't that bad. [38:35] And I feel like, [38:37] and there's a line of study [38:38] about that. [38:39] I feel like these shows [38:40] did the same thing [38:41] for Black people. [38:42] Oh, yeah. [38:42] Like it was about showing us [38:45] multifaceted in different ways. [38:47] Most of the people [38:49] for many of the shows [38:50] were striving for excellence. [38:52] Right? [38:52] Like there weren't, [38:53] it wasn't like, [38:53] it wasn't insecure [38:54] where Issa can't get a job. [38:56] Right? [38:56] Like it was like, [38:57] right? [38:58] Well, keep a man. [38:58] It was like over and over, [39:00] you have Uncle Phil, [39:01] who's a judge. [39:02] You have Bill Cosby, [39:04] who is, [39:05] who's a doctor. [39:06] Who's a successful doctor. [39:06] Because his wife's a lawyer. [39:08] Like all of these. [39:08] Who speaks Spanish. [39:09] Exactly. [39:10] All of these Black people [39:11] who were high power. [39:11] And even Martin, [39:12] Martin was a successful DJ. [39:13] Correct. [39:14] And Gina was a marketing [39:15] executive. [39:15] Correct. [39:16] People forget that. [39:16] Yes. [39:17] Now the other one [39:18] didn't have no job. [39:18] Now Tommy had no job. [39:19] And Tommy never had no job. [39:20] But that's, [39:21] everybody else had jobs. [39:22] But like, [39:23] it shows Black people [39:24] in a completely different way. [39:26] How does that impact [39:27] the way that the country [39:28] saw Black people? [39:29] Yeah. [39:29] And it started [39:30] with The Cosby Show, [39:31] I think. [39:31] And the point I make [39:32] in this book is that [39:34] because you had all [39:35] of these shows on the air [39:36] at the same time, [39:37] no one show had to bear [39:38] the burden of representing [39:40] the entirety of [39:41] the Black experience. [39:42] Which is not a thing [39:42] that can be done. [39:43] Right. [39:43] Because The Cosby Show, [39:44] let's not forget, [39:45] caught a lot of flack [39:46] from some people about, [39:48] oh, this is too aspirational [39:49] and this is not [39:50] a real depiction [39:51] of Black life. [39:52] Uh, Vanessa sneaks [39:53] off to Baltimore. [39:54] We're just gonna play it. [39:55] We're just gonna play it. [39:56] Vanessa sneaks off [39:57] to Baltimore to see [39:58] the wretched. [39:59] You have taken us [40:00] from levels of frenzy, [40:02] panic, distress, [40:03] and now that we know [40:04] you're okay. [40:06] She should've won an Emmy. [40:07] Yes. [40:08] She should've won an Emmy. [40:09] Look at Vanessa. [40:10] Look at Vanessa. [40:10] Popping all that hair. [40:12] Look at that mask. [40:13] Because we know that you [40:15] have been to Baltimore, [40:16] Maryland, [40:17] with the wretched. [40:18] The wretched. [40:19] Big fun. [40:21] Big fun. [40:22] Isn't that what you had, [40:23] Vanessa? [40:24] Didn't you have big fun? [40:25] Well, let's see. [40:26] Now you had donuts. [40:31] Donuts in Wilmington, Delaware. [40:33] Claire, tell me, [40:34] have you ever been [40:35] to Wilmington for donuts? [40:38] Not on the weekend. [40:42] Not on the weekend. [40:43] Oh, that's incredible. [40:44] I play that because, [40:45] to your point, [40:46] people said, [40:46] oh, it was too aspirational. [40:48] I mean, [40:48] and I've never been [40:49] to Baltimore to see the wretched, [40:50] but I've been told [40:51] the hell off by your mama before. [40:52] I've been told the hell off [40:53] by my mama. [40:53] My daddy's sitting there, [40:54] well, I gotta take it [40:55] because they done gathered me [40:57] from doing something. [40:58] Like, that actually is real. [41:00] Yeah. [41:01] And you don't have to be black [41:03] to have a, [41:03] to see a moment like that. [41:04] No, because white parents [41:05] gotta send kids out to them. [41:06] Absolutely. [41:07] I mean, [41:08] the other thing is that these shows, [41:10] they soften the distance [41:11] between people. [41:12] And when you see stuff like that, [41:14] the fact, first of all, [41:15] the fact that Felicia Rashad [41:16] never won an Emmy [41:16] for her role is criminal. [41:18] Yeah. [41:18] It's criminal [41:19] and it needs to be rectified. [41:20] One could argue it's racist. [41:21] Well, that's true. [41:22] One, maybe three would argue. [41:23] Maybe three would argue. [41:25] Those, [41:26] you would not have [41:26] a Secretary Colin Powell. [41:28] You would not have [41:28] a President Barack Obama. [41:29] Certainly not as quickly [41:30] had it not been for those shows. [41:32] In much the same way, [41:32] you would not have [41:33] marriage equality [41:34] as early as you did [41:35] were it not for Ellen DeGeneres [41:36] and Will & Grace [41:37] in those kinds of shows. [41:38] I just want to play [41:39] one other clip. [41:39] Yes, we are all similar [41:41] in very different ways. [41:42] We're dealing with similar things. [41:44] The scene that comes to mind [41:45] for me is Dwayne [41:47] at Whitley's wedding. [41:48] Oh, yeah. [41:49] Oh, my God. [41:50] Whitley, it's Whitley's wedding day. [41:51] She wakes up, you know, [41:53] um, confused. [41:54] Dwayne, like, [41:55] visit her late at night. [41:56] And then her mother [41:57] tells her to, like, [41:57] put Dwayne behind her. [41:59] Like, you about to marry Byron. [42:00] Uh-huh. [42:01] And, um, [42:01] you need to think about Byron. [42:03] And I do's are about [42:04] to be pronounced. [42:05] And then this scene happens. [42:07] It's so good. [42:08] Play the clip. [42:09] Go on, Reverend. [42:10] Go on. [42:11] Go on, Reverend. [42:12] You have a potential response. [42:13] Well, she means yes. [42:14] Well, she's got to say yes. [42:17] Diane Carroll. [42:18] Iconic, Diane Carroll. [42:21] Insane. [42:23] Will you? [42:26] Vested on those who ask the questions, [42:27] brother. [42:28] Woo! [42:29] I love you, and if you'll have me, [42:31] I'll be firing. [42:34] I love her. [42:35] Die! [42:35] Just die! [42:36] Not Olivia Pope. [42:37] Die! [42:37] Just die! [42:38] Will you have me to manage your lawfully wedded husband [42:40] from this day forth to having a whole and richer, [42:43] for poorer? [42:44] Baby, please! [42:44] I do! [42:46] I do! [42:47] It was crazy. [42:48] It's so good. [42:49] Iconic. [42:50] It's so good. [42:51] Okay, the thing, this is so amazing. [42:53] Die! [42:53] Just die! [42:54] You know, so I, um, Debbie, way back when, [42:58] when I had a show at 4 p.m. on Saturdays and Sundays, [43:00] Debbie Allen, shout out to you for watching. [43:02] Debbie Allen, because people still are like, [43:04] I wish you never had your own show, [43:06] and I'm like, y'all the reason why it's not on here anymore. [43:10] Y'all asking me these damn questions [43:12] is why I don't, actually. [43:13] Oh, my goodness. [43:14] Yes, correct. [43:15] Oh, wow. [43:16] Debbie Allen did, came to do the show. [43:19] Uh-huh. [43:19] And, um, she talked about this moment, [43:22] and Kadeem Hardson has since talked about it as well, [43:24] but, like, they did this in one take. [43:26] And it was improv. [43:27] And it was improv. [43:28] The Baby Please was improv, yeah. [43:28] Yes, very much so. [43:30] And when the scene was over, and they yelled, [43:33] cut, everybody was kind of looking like, [43:34] did we, was that okay? [43:35] Did we do it? [43:36] And Debbie Allen was like, that's good, [43:36] we can move on. [43:37] But it was, that's real TV. [43:40] And it's, I mean, I just think about that [43:42] every time somebody gets married. [43:43] Yeah. [43:44] I really do. [43:44] You're just waiting? [43:45] You looking for Kadeem Hardson? [43:46] I'm like, yeah, I don't really go to a lot of weddings, [43:47] but every time I met one, I'm like, well. [43:50] But it's the culture. [43:50] You grew up in Oklahoma. [43:52] Where'd you grow up? [43:52] Oh, the South. [43:53] All over the South. [43:54] I'm sorry. [43:54] The Midwest. [43:55] I had the Omaha. [43:56] But you know what? [43:56] Everybody thinks Omaha is Oklahoma, [43:58] so I, you know, no shade yet. [43:59] My point is we grew up in different parts [44:01] of the country, but we all have the shared experience [44:03] of watching that and watching all of these shows [44:05] and having sort of the same reference points. [44:07] And if we were going to go to a wedding [44:08] and someone shouted, baby, baby, baby, please. [44:10] Yeah, we would know exactly what we're talking about. [44:14] These days, will kids 20, 30 years from now [44:17] be talking about like a Drewski clip? [44:18] Probably not. [44:19] Hopefully not. [44:20] Hopefully they're not. [44:21] I don't think they'll find common cause [44:23] around some of the stuff that exists. [44:24] That's sad. [44:26] That is devastating. [44:27] I know we have to go, but I mean, [44:29] I'm just throw this on the table for us. [44:31] We talk about that there's like a lack [44:33] of a shared culture, American culture. [44:35] But I would just argue that I can meet a Black person [44:38] from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. [44:42] I can meet a Black person from Miami, Florida. [44:44] I can meet a Black person from the back alley woods [44:46] of Georgia, rural South Dakota. [44:49] And I feel like we have all had a similar experience. [44:53] Like there's just some things that like, [44:55] your grandma told you, you either in or you out. [44:57] Uh-huh. [44:58] Why are you letting the air outside? [44:59] Unless I'm letting the air out of my house. [45:01] Why are you letting the air out of my house? [45:02] Like that's... [45:02] Rippin' and runnin'. [45:03] Rippin' and runnin'. [45:05] Come on now, the street lights. [45:06] Come on, where you going? [45:07] Home. [45:08] There is just something. [45:10] There is still shared culture. [45:12] But this thing, everyone that you're talking about [45:15] that would acknowledge that aspect of shared Black American life [45:19] are people who are probably our age or older. [45:21] Yeah. [45:22] Because if you talk to someone who's 16, [45:25] do they know that? [45:26] Do they know that when the lights are on, [45:28] your ass better be at home? [45:29] I'ma start telling my son. [45:31] I'ma start telling my step son, [45:33] you better quit rippin' and runnin'. [45:34] Yeah, come back. [45:34] No, they're gentle parentin'. [45:36] There ain't nobody out here rippin' and runnin'. [45:37] You need to start using rippin' and runnin'. [45:38] Yeah, no, he knows all about rippin' and runnin'. [45:39] Okay, all right. [45:40] And letting all my good air out of the house. [45:41] Exactly. [45:42] Knows all about it. [45:43] Letting the pink ones out of the refrigerator, [45:44] as my mama used to say. [45:46] So I guess you're right. [45:46] Maybe, are we failin' these children? [45:48] Y'all, I ain't got no kids. [45:49] They need to read the book. [45:50] Y'all are failin'. [45:51] They do. [45:52] They do. [45:52] They need to read the book. [45:54] Do you have McDonald's money? [45:58] I'm crying. [45:59] Jeff, thank you. [46:00] Thank you. [46:01] Thank you both. [46:01] You know what? [46:02] We do have to laugh [46:03] to keep from crying in these moments. [46:04] And this is just a really good reminder, [46:06] as we were saying, [46:07] that even in... [46:08] Because the 90s was crazy for Black people. [46:10] Hello. [46:11] They was lockin' people up. [46:13] Talkin' the crime. [46:14] Beatin' them down. [46:14] Gettin' beat down. [46:16] Come on. [46:17] Bill Clinton in the crime bill. [46:18] Joe Biden in the crime bill. [46:19] But Joe Biden was saying he ain't do that. [46:20] Bill Clinton wrote it. [46:21] That's another story. [46:22] But the 90s was a crazy time. [46:25] But so much creativity came out of the 90s as well. [46:27] Oh, just across the board. [46:28] 90s R&B, unmatched. [46:30] Fashion, Karl Kanai, Aniche, cross colors. [46:32] The list goes on. [46:33] Karl Kanai, come on. [46:34] TV, we talked about TV. [46:35] Movies. [46:36] Literature. [46:37] I mean, just the Black cultural creation [46:39] in the 1990s was off the charts. [46:41] Mm-hmm. [46:41] And my next book might be about, [46:43] like, how do we get back to that point? [46:44] I don't know. [46:45] Well, it is a reminder that even in the midst of chaos, [46:48] terrible things happening, [46:50] great, extraordinary, genius things can be made. [46:54] If people just put their mind to it. [46:55] So thank you for writing this book, Jeff. [46:56] Black Out Loud. [46:56] Thank you for your support. [46:57] Coming here, Black Out Loud, [46:59] available now wherever you get your books. [47:01] And if you are an audiobook person, as we are, [47:03] did you narrate yourself? [47:04] We have an audiobook too, yeah. [47:05] You did? [47:06] Yes. [47:06] 25 hours in a booth, cumulatively. [47:09] All right, all right. [47:10] You know, they pay you extra when you do it yourself. [47:12] Shout out to Jeff Bennett. [47:14] Jeff, we appreciate you. [47:15] We're gonna take a little break, folks. [47:17] And we're gonna meet you on the other side with the side chat. [47:19] Oh, this is great. [47:20] Hello, and welcome to the side chat. [47:22] It was just us to chat and talk about it. [47:24] Jeff was great. [47:25] I love you. [47:26] Okay, I love this book. [47:27] It's such a good book. [47:28] You know what? [47:28] This is making me want to go, [47:30] not that I have time, [47:31] but I'm gonna go watch some oldies but goodies. [47:35] Yeah, do it while you're prepping. [47:36] That's what I do now. [47:37] When I prep for the show, I watch TV. [47:39] How are you watching something while you're prepping for work? [47:43] I'm good at multitasking. [47:44] That's insane. [47:45] What are you watching right now? [47:46] I am watching, I think it's called The Dinosaurs. [47:49] Dinosaurs. [47:50] I'm not sure. [47:50] Oh, did you like it? [47:51] This is Morgan Freeman narrating. [47:53] Morgan Freeman is narrating like basically the dinosaur. [47:56] There's four episodes. [47:57] I'm on episode two. [47:58] Mm-hmm. [47:59] Episode one tells you like everything that happened [48:02] before the dinosaurs get here. [48:04] Y'all, it rained for a million years on Earth. [48:06] A million? [48:07] So Earth basically looked like Mars, essentially. [48:09] Oh. [48:10] And nothing could grow here. [48:11] Until God. [48:12] And then somebody made it ready for a million years. [48:17] And that is how we ended up with all the water. [48:19] That's where the grass grew. [48:20] After that, a lot of the, um, they were little lizards. [48:23] They weren't exactly dinosaurs. [48:24] This is the one Steven Spielberg directed, right? [48:27] It's so good. [48:27] Okay. [48:28] I saw the trailer for this before it came out. [48:30] It's so good. [48:31] Like on, it's on Netflix. [48:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [48:32] Scrolling on that. [48:33] And I was like, oh, I need to watch this. [48:34] So I did bookmark it. [48:35] I haven't watched it yet. [48:36] Now, somebody, maybe it was Britney. [48:38] Shout out to Britney Brothers. [48:39] Somebody told me they saw the dinosaurs and they were like, [48:42] mm, I didn't love it. [48:44] They didn't tell me nothing new. [48:45] I loved it. [48:46] Only a nerd would say it didn't tell you nothing new. [48:49] I'm a nerd, but this is like, you have to be another level to be like, [48:52] oh, I didn't learn anything. [48:53] It also is a very good reminder in the chaos of our current world. [48:56] That we could all be gone tomorrow? [48:58] Well, no, that too. [49:00] That's not what I was gonna say. [49:01] That's terrifying. [49:02] That we're like such a small speck. [49:05] In the history of this planet, the amount of time that we as human beings, [49:09] and the way the homo sapiens that are walking around right now, [49:12] is such a small, like, little check mark. [49:14] It's humbling. [49:15] It is humbling. [49:16] I'm gonna watch this. [49:17] It's very good. [49:18] It's in my saved. [49:19] Okay, so shout out to Morgan Freeman. [49:21] Yes, and Morgan Freeman's voice is amazing. [49:23] I mean, honestly, it's great. [49:24] You know, I am wearing my little, um... [49:26] What are you wearing? [49:26] These are these little, you know, the little friendship bracelet thingy? [49:28] You're like a Taylor Swift kid. [49:29] Uh, okay, yes. [49:31] I also watched her documentary on Disney, and I actually liked it. [49:34] You've had a lot of... [49:35] You know what? I forgot. You work on the weekends. [49:36] You have a lot of time to watch things during the week. [49:38] I had one day. Okay, okay, what day? [49:40] What is it? [49:41] Okay, so, you know, we had Easter dinner last week, [49:43] and so my sister told me, [49:45] you gotta find a little whimsy every day, [49:46] because the world is hard. [49:47] And so my whimsy, I went a little crazy in Hobby Lobby. [49:51] Yeah. [49:51] So, and I made Easter baskets for the children. [49:52] It was very cute. [49:54] Thank you. [49:54] Everything you did was very cute. [49:55] Thank you. I made Easter baskets for the kids, [49:57] but then I also got these, like, this is a Sagittarius. [50:00] This one says KJ Sister Sim, [50:02] my sister, one of my sisters-in-law. [50:03] She gave this to me. [50:04] But I made every one. [50:06] I got these little bracelet things. [50:07] Like, 600 beads came in there, [50:09] and I gave them to all the girls, [50:11] like, the children girls, [50:12] but also, like, the adult women. [50:14] The dope girls, uh-huh. [50:14] And then during Easter brunch, [50:16] after the, well, people, [50:17] while the men was playing cards, [50:18] we was over there making bracelets. [50:20] And so I made them, [50:21] like, they had your sign on them. [50:23] They're very cute. [50:23] So what I will be doing this weekend is, [50:26] well, I'm traveling, but when I'm not, [50:28] when I'm done, [50:28] I'll be making another bracelet. [50:30] And I'm also now into phone cases. [50:32] I'm making those as well. [50:32] You're making a phone... [50:33] Make me a phone case. [50:34] I will make you a phone case. [50:35] Yes. [50:35] I bought some resin. [50:36] Maybe... [50:36] What? [50:37] You gotta find... [50:38] Yes, baby. [50:38] I got some UV resin. [50:41] I'm about to make you a phone case. [50:42] Make that phone case. [50:43] I will use a phone case. [50:44] I got a Pro Max now. [50:45] You have a 17? [50:46] The big one, yes. [50:47] Perfect. [50:47] I have a case for you. [50:48] There we go. [50:49] Clock it. [50:49] All right now. [50:50] Come on now. [50:51] Find some whimsy this week, y'all. [50:52] Find some whimsy. [50:53] Find some damn whimsy. [50:54] Find some whimsy. [50:55] We're gonna leave it there. [50:55] Shout out to the whimsical. [50:57] Yeah, the whimsical. [50:59] Thank you for listening.