Could sexual assault lawsuits change rideshare apps? — Terms of Service

[0:02] Welcome to Terms of Service. I'm CNN tech reporter Claire Duffy. [0:07] Rideshare apps like Uber and Lyft are advertised as a safe choice for a ride home. [0:12] And they have often provided a safer alternative to, say, driving home after an evening out drinking. [0:18] But rideshare apps are facing thousands of lawsuits from users who allege they were [0:23] assaulted by their drivers over the past few years. To understand what's happening, [0:28] I spoke with Rachel Abrams, a partner at the law firm Pfeiffer Wolf. She represents many of the [0:33] people who have filed these lawsuits, including the plaintiff in the first federal bellwether trial [0:38] against Uber. That woman, Jalen Dean, was awarded $8.5 million in February after an Arizona jury [0:46] found Uber liable in her rape. Rachel has been working on these types of cases for years. [0:52] She and I first met in 2024 when I interviewed one of her clients, a Florida woman who alleged [0:57] she'd been raped by her Lyft driver. We are going to talk about what you need to know about these [1:03] cases and about staying safe when using rideshare apps. Uber controls every aspect of a ride. [1:09] They set the prices and the fares, and they match the rider with the passenger, [1:13] and they market themselves. Go have another drink. Ride with us. Safe ride home. You know, [1:18] you're safe with Uber. Also, when I reached out to Uber for comment on this episode, [1:23] they offered the opportunity to speak with Kim Bueno, the lawyer who represents the company in [1:28] Dean's case. Kim, a litigation partner at Kirkland and Ellis LLP, will explain why Uber is appealing [1:35] the decision and the measures the company has taken to protect users. Uber maintains its commitment to [1:42] safety and is always looking at ways to make the platform safer. A warning to listeners that this [1:47] episode includes details of sexual assault. Those conversations first with Rachel, then with Kim, [1:53] after this short break. So Rachel, you have been working on these rideshare sexual assault cases [2:02] for years. How did this issue first come to your attention? I live in San Francisco, born and raised, [2:07] and Uber was started here in San Francisco. And I started hearing of reports in the news about [2:16] women particularly that have been sexually assaulted. And so my law firm decided that we would [2:21] look into this. And I actually remember the first call I got. It was on Super Bowl Sunday, 2019. And [2:27] I'm a huge football fan. And that was my first Lyft client that had been raped by her Lyft driver [2:35] just a week before. And she was my first client. And I've devoted my career to the rideshare sexual [2:42] assault epidemic since then. So you just wrapped up, as I said, this first federal bellwether trial, [2:50] although Uber has said it will appeal, which we'll talk about in a minute. But can we just start with [2:54] the emotions of trials like this? How are you feeling after this result? And how does bringing [2:59] these cases affect plaintiffs? Well, I personally, I feel so proud of my client, Jalen Dean, [3:05] who was the first Bellwether case that just went to trial in Phoenix. But of course, we have [3:11] thousands of other clients, as well as other survivors that have yet to come forward or that will be [3:18] assaulted by their Uber or Lyft drivers in the future, that until there's safety changes on these [3:24] platforms, we're going to continue to have these problems. I want to talk a little bit about Jalen's [3:30] case that was just decided in Arizona. And then we'll get into some of the other cases and how they're [3:34] all connected. But what were the allegations in Jalen's case? Jalen Dean was 19 years old, [3:42] and she was attending flight attendant school in Phoenix, Arizona. She was celebrating after [3:47] graduating from the six week program and had some drinks with her friends and ended up, you know, [3:55] needing an Uber ride back to her hotel. She was going to graduate the next day. And unfortunately, [4:02] within four minutes of getting in the Uber ride, the Uber driver turned off the application, veered off [4:08] to a dark, secluded area and raped her and then took her back to her hotel right after that. [4:15] Wow. So there were numerous causes of action involved in the case. But at the end of the day, [4:20] the jury found Uber liable for that rape and for their actions that night. [4:28] Were there any highlights from the trial or information that came out that you found [4:34] especially striking and that people should be aware of? [4:37] Well, there's a lot, a lot of information and it's all publicly available now because after the [4:43] trial, all of the internal Uber documents that are, you know, highly confidential or confidential [4:49] are now made public. The most probably shocking thing is that Uber has an algorithm that assesses the [4:56] risk of sexual assault on its platform. It's called SRAD. So every ride received an SRAD safety risk [5:03] assessment score. Wow. And Uber decides to set the threshold on different cities in different nights, [5:11] depending on how many drivers they have. So if there's not a lot of drivers on the road, [5:16] they may lower that threshold to allow higher risk rides to be matched. That's something that I mean, [5:22] as an Uber passenger would want to know. You're getting into a high-risk ride. [5:28] Uber's AI-powered risk assessment program, known as SRAD or Safety Ride Assessed Dispatch, [5:34] rates rides on a scale from zero to one, with one being the highest risk. The system is based on [5:40] factors such as time of day, whether the pickup is in the vicinity of a bar, and a rider's and driver's [5:46] history on the app. Uber gave the ride Jalen Dean took an SRAD score of 0.81 out of one. But Uber [5:55] never informed Jalen of its risk assessment, as the platform does not share that information with [6:00] riders. The jury decided that Uber was liable in this case because the driver was acting as what's [6:07] called an apparent agent of the company during the incident, but didn't find Uber liable for [6:12] negligence or design defects. And as you said, in that case, awarded the plaintiff $8.5 million in [6:18] damages. What did you make of that decision? I thought it was a great decision in that, [6:26] you know, Uber controls every aspect of a ride. They set the prices and the fares and they match [6:31] the rider with the passenger. And they market themselves, including to people like Jalen Dean, [6:37] go have another drink, ride with us safe ride home, you know, you're safe with Uber. So that [6:43] marketing instills a sense of of trust and belief to particularly to women to make them feel safe, [6:51] that they can get a safe ride home, especially after having a few drinks at night. So that that's [6:57] what the the jury saw and they took away was Uber, even though they're independent contractors, [7:03] and not employees of Uber. That doesn't matter because they've made everyone believe that they're [7:10] agents that they have a relationship with Uber, that's more than just an independent contractor. [7:16] And that that's where the apparent agency comes in. The jury said, Hey, we believe that this Uber [7:22] driver committed this rape. And we believe that Jalen had every reason to believe that the driver was [7:29] an agent of Uber that night. And Uber is therefore responsible and liable for that rape. [7:35] Jalen's was just the first case to go to trial of more than 3000 similar lawsuits that have been [7:41] filed against Uber. Those cases filed by plaintiffs all over the country have been consolidated into [7:47] what's known as a single federal multi-district litigation or MDL. One judge will oversee the litigation [7:54] and deal with issues of evidence and testimony that are relevant to all the cases for the sake of [7:59] efficiency. But unlike in a class action, each case must be resolved separately. [8:04] I mean, it's not practical just to try thousands of cases. So the bellwethers are supposed to help [8:11] guide how juries value different types of cases, which is why in our bellwether pool, we have 20 cases [8:18] in the bellwether pool currently, have various injuries, different locations, different states, [8:23] so that we can get a sense of how juries will value different types of cases. And hopefully [8:29] that will result in a settlement of the cases. [8:32] Got it. So you try those 20 cases with different fact patterns, different plaintiffs and different [8:37] juries, and then that helps decide how to settle the other thousands of cases. [8:43] Yes. Hopefully we don't have to try all 20. Sometimes it settles before any of them. Sometimes [8:48] they settle after one, sometimes two. You know, it kind of depends on various factors. But that's [8:55] what's great about Jaylen Steen's case, is that it really was a true bellwether. And it gave us [9:01] how a jury would see that type of case and that type of injury. [9:04] A California jury found in September in the first of the state cases to go to trial that Uber was not [9:11] liable in connection with the sexual assault of another passenger. How does that factor in, [9:16] in terms of impact on future cases? Is that considered sort of separately because it was [9:20] a state case and not one of these federal cases? [9:24] Well, yes, every trial and every case we had, we had information to take to the next. But that [9:31] was a very different case, very different judge, different jurisdiction or forum. And, you know, [9:38] in that case they did, the jury did find that Uber was negligent. They just didn't see that [9:43] negligence as causing injuries in that specific case in that plaintiff. But we take all information [9:50] in from all the trials to build on for the next trial, including the bellwether trials and the [9:55] MDL that are coming. There are also cases you mentioned against Lyft and presumably [10:01] this has also been an issue with taxi cabs too. Like talk a little bit about the big picture issue here [10:07] and how widespread this is. Oh, yes, there's a huge problem with Lyft as well. And until the safety [10:13] measures to prevent sexual assaults are implemented by them, then they'll continue to happen. But taxicabs, [10:19] there isn't a lot of information and data about taxicabs because taxi drivers have to undergo [10:25] rigorous training, including sex assault training and a lot of things like that. And there's also safety [10:31] measures in vehicles. I haven't been in a taxicab in the last 20 years where there wasn't plexiglass and [10:38] and even pre-COVID and cameras. Yeah, you're so separated from the driver in a way that is [10:43] different from being in an Uber or Lyft. Yeah. And even before the whole rideshare industry, [10:47] when I was taking taxis, there were cameras in most of the vehicles. So that's something that really [10:52] sets it apart. When I reached out to Lyft for comment on this episode, they told me, quote, [10:57] everyone deserves to feel safe and respected on the Lyft platform and any act of violence has no place [11:03] in the Lyft community or our society. They said that from January 2020 to December 2022, over 99.9% [11:11] of rides were completed without safety or other issues, but added, quote, we recognize that even [11:17] one incident is one too many. We are continually investing in tools and policies to help prevent [11:23] and detect potential unsafe situations. In these cases, are the implicated rideshare drivers [11:32] involved and do they face consequences, the people who actually perpetrated these assaults? [11:37] It depends, but not usually because, first of all, most of these are not reported, even though we're [11:42] talking about a lot of numbers of survivors, most women don't come forward. And so those that do, [11:48] and the vast majority of the cases that are even on file, have do not go to the police because they feel [11:55] they won't be believed. A lot of them were intoxicated. They have to go through a very [12:00] hard process of victim blaming. So a lot of them do not report to the police, and that would be a [12:04] requirement for them to charge. So there aren't a lot of consequences unless a survivor decides to report. [12:13] The jury found Uber liable for Jaylen Dean's rape because the driver was acting as an apparent agent of [12:19] the company, but didn't find the company liable for negligence or design defects, [12:24] something Uber has claimed as a win. Uber said in a statement that the verdict, quote, [12:29] affirms that Uber acted responsibly and has invested meaningfully in rider safety. [12:34] As we'll hear from Uber's legal representation, Kim Bueno, later on, the company plans to appeal the [12:40] verdict. More on their response and how you can stay safe while using rideshare apps after the break. [12:52] The issue of rideshare assaults isn't new. Back in 2018, CNN published an investigation about U.S. [12:59] Uber drivers accused of sexually assaulting or abusing passengers in the previous four years. Later, [13:06] Uber released its own reports on the thousands of sexual assault reports it received, [13:10] although it maintains that these incidents are very rare. Rachel said that part of the reason it took [13:15] years for these cases to get to court is because until 2018, Uber and Lyft forced drivers and riders [13:23] with sexual assault or harassment claims into private arbitration. Having seen so many of these cases, [13:30] are there commonalities among them in terms of circumstances or where things often [13:35] perpetrators take advantage of the situation? [13:38] These perpetrators know that they have, you know, a vulnerable, usually a vulnerable woman in the [13:47] back, had too much to drink late at night, trying to get a safe ride. And these are crimes of [13:53] opportunities. They also know a lot of these women are not going to to to tell anyone. So there's [13:59] many commonalities with regards to that. Do you think that Uber has the responsibility to warn [14:04] customers to let them know about these common risk factors? [14:08] Yes, for sure. I mean, like I was saying about the SRAD score. I mean, if you had something pop [14:14] up on your your phone when you're ordering an Uber that just says, hey, by the way, this ride has been [14:20] flagged as as a high chance of a sexual assault, you know, then you can make that decision and informed [14:27] decision on taking that ride or maybe taking a different ride. I think everybody at least have have [14:34] to know that information to make that informed decision. [14:36] I want to talk about Uber's response here. The company has repeatedly denied that it is [14:41] responsible for assaults by drivers. In that Arizona case, the spokesperson told me at the [14:46] time of the decision that the jury, quote, rejected claims that Uber was negligent and that our safety [14:51] systems were defective. They noted that the plaintiff didn't receive the full damages she asked for [14:57] and said the verdict, quote, affirms that Uber acted responsibly and invested meaningfully in rider safety. [15:04] And of course, the company has rolled out a number of safety features. But before we get into those, [15:09] what do you make of that response? [15:10] 8.5 million dollars is a huge verdict and one we're really proud of. And to then now [15:20] tout that as a victory for Uber is just mind blowing to me. Clearly, [15:26] we're thrilled with the fact that the jury found Uber liable for the rape of Jaylen Dean with, [15:35] you know, whatever causes of action the jury found for or not that at the end of the day, [15:42] it was a plaintiff's victory in the tune of 8.5 million dollars. [15:46] It's worth noting that while 8.5 million dollars may be a relatively small price to pay for a company as [15:52] big as Uber, if the thousands of other cases are resolved in a similar way, Uber could potentially [15:58] be on the hook for billions of dollars in damages. The company has put out safety reports for 2017, [16:06] 18, 2019, 20, 2021, 22. They have not released one since then, but in the most recent report, [16:13] they said that over 1.8 billion U.S. trips that occurred in those two years from January 2021 to [16:19] December 2022, Uber says there were just shy of 3,000 of what it calls the most serious categories [16:26] of sexual assault and misconduct, and that 99.9 percent of rides ended without any kind of safety [16:32] report. Do you see those as accurate numbers? And obviously, even if it's just a 0.1 instance, [16:40] those are still people that are getting hurt. Yeah. If you look at all of their rides, [16:44] you could say 0.001 percent. How about we talk about women late at night while drinking or within [16:52] five, you know, all the things that they know are high risk. Let's narrow it to what we're talking [16:57] about. That percentage goes way up. So it's really how you skew the data. In addition, as you noted, [17:03] they said these are the top five. There's 21 categories in their taxonomy of sexual assault and [17:08] harassment, right? So they report on only the top five. Wouldn't you want to know about the rest of [17:15] them as a consumer that's reading the safety report and relying on that information? So, you know, that [17:21] that's the information that the passengers and the public should hear, right? And then make their own [17:26] decisions about what information is relevant for them to make those decisions to ride with Uber. [17:31] So Uber does now offer a range of safety features. You can choose to record audio during a ride. [17:38] Drivers can record a ride with their smartphone cameras. You can share your live trip information [17:43] with a friend. And Uber says it has a 24-7 support team that can respond to safety incidents. What are [17:49] the gaps that you see here? What more needs to be done to be addressing this issue? [17:54] They do have safety features. A lot of those safety features do not go to prevention. You already [17:59] are in the vehicle feeling that something's going to happen or something has already happened. One of those [18:04] is the ride check. If, you know, in Jalen Dean's case, the driver immediately turned off the ride, [18:11] canceling it, and deviated from the route. That triggers a ride check by Uber saying, [18:15] is everything okay? You've deviated or is it canceled? But as she testified, she didn't see that until she [18:22] was reporting to the police because she was being raped when that ride check came in. [18:25] So, and they also don't follow up on the ride checks. They may call and if no one answers, [18:29] that's it, right? So, the effectiveness of a lot of these safety features isn't there. [18:35] I'm just curious what more you think should be done here. Are there features that you think would [18:39] be more effective? You mentioned cameras. Cameras is the biggest one, in my opinion, [18:44] in this day and age. You know, you can't walk outside without being on a camera, a ring camera, [18:49] your ATM, whatever. There's cameras everywhere. And those cameras are a huge deterrent. And if something [18:56] does happen, then you have it. And it protects both the drivers and the passengers. [19:00] At least in New York, Uber drivers generally have cameras. Is it just something that they [19:05] don't mandate across their entire network? Yes. Right now, there is, you know, voluntary cameras. [19:11] So, some drivers will have them and you'll get the notification, but it's not mandatory. So, [19:16] what would be the deterrent and even the driver in Jaylen Dean's case testified, [19:24] if there was a camera, I probably wouldn't have done it. Oh, wow. Yeah. Very, very telling. Right? [19:30] So, what we're saying is mandatory. The driver can't turn them off. It keeps running. And if you [19:35] stop the ride or deviate or cancel, as long as the passenger and the driver are within the same [19:42] distance, it keeps going. And it's made by a third party, not by Uber and accessed. So, it's a cloud-based [19:49] thing. And these are all feasible options that are not, certainly for a multi-billion dollar [19:54] company, it's not that expensive. And as I said, cameras are pretty routine in taxicabs right now. [20:02] Uber, at the start of March, also made this feature called Women Preferences available [20:07] nationwide in the US. And this, at least in theory, allows women riders to request or schedule a ride [20:13] with women drivers. The challenge in my mind is like, again, I live in New York City. I've been here [20:18] almost eight years. I think I've maybe had a female Uber driver twice. Like, I just don't know [20:23] how long I would be waiting if I wanted to use this feature. What do you make of that offering? [20:28] Is it a step in the right direction? Yes, I definitely think it is a step in the [20:32] right direction. And again, I think it's been a problem to maintain women drivers on the platform [20:39] because of the risk of sexual assault and them driving at night and being vulnerable in that regard. [20:45] So the drivers can actually choose women preference options. And so I believe this is is good for [20:54] the women that want to be drivers for Uber. I do know people that have used the the woman matching [21:00] option as passengers and said it wasn't that long. And of course, if you the risk of sexual being [21:06] sexually assaulted versus waiting an extra five to 10 minutes, I think you would choose option B. [21:11] I want to leave listeners not just feeling freaked out by this, but but with some practical advice [21:17] here. Obviously, in many cases, it's not realistic for people just to stop using these platforms [21:21] altogether because they do provide a lot of convenience. In light of that, what can folks, [21:28] especially women do to stay safer using these platforms? [21:31] Yes. Well, I mean, it's a reality. Everyone needs to take a ride share and they're not going anywhere, [21:37] right? They're very convenient. But you have if if Uber and Lyft aren't going to protect you as a [21:43] passenger, you got to protect yourself. You'll be on the phone with a friend or obviously let people [21:50] know that you're you're you're taking one. Try to avoid riding alone. Try to avoid taking taking or using [21:56] one late at night after you've had some drinks with your friends. You can take action to protect [22:01] yourself. What should someone do if they or someone they know has been assaulted by a ride share driver? [22:08] Report. It's so underreported. It just perpetuates the problem with like, oh, it's so rare. It doesn't [22:15] happen when we already know sexual assault survivors don't come forward a lot of the time. So we'll hopefully [22:21] through this litigation and, you know, people, plaintiffs like Jaylen Dean, who empower other [22:27] survivors to come forward and report. You know, we don't even know the extent of the problem, which [22:33] is already pretty vast because a lot of people don't report. So reporting is key. Uber says it takes a [22:42] number of steps to protect passengers and drivers. I spoke with Kim Bueno, the lawyer who represented Uber [22:48] in the Arizona case and asked her about some of those safety changes that Rachel suggested, like [22:54] required camera recording. So just to sort of start big picture here, Uber is facing more than 3,000 [23:02] federal lawsuits from plaintiffs, many of them women who allege that they were raped or assaulted or [23:07] harassed by their drivers. Obviously, these are cases that need to be tried in court. But the scale of [23:14] this, if you're looking from the outside, I think would seem to suggest that there is a problem here. [23:18] What is Uber's response to these cases? Well, there is a problem in the sense that sexual assault is [23:24] a really serious problem in our society. And that is reflected on the Uber platform as it is in all [23:30] areas of society, which is why Uber has taken so many steps and done so much to try to make the platform [23:38] as safe as possible. But when it comes to the MDL itself, I think that it's important when we're [23:44] looking at those numbers to understand that some of those claims are different than others. There's a [23:51] very wide range of claims from someone saying that they were raped and survivors coming forward with [23:58] serious stories of sexual assault, everything down to somebody made a comment that I didn't like or [24:05] alleged touch that may or may not have occurred. So we are dealing with a very broad spectrum of cases [24:13] within that docket. But when it comes to the cases, you mentioned a number of those are [24:18] serious sexual assault allegations. I know we've we've seen the headlines of some of those. [24:23] What is Uber's position? Obviously, these these lawsuits are alleging that Uber [24:28] bears some responsibility there. What is Uber's position? Well, we just had a trial in Phoenix. I know [24:33] you're familiar with that when all of those allegations were brought to a jury. Allegations of [24:40] negligence that we didn't do enough, that our safety features were defective, and the jury rejected [24:47] all of that after a three week trial. And Uber was exonerated when it came to any liability of what the [24:54] company did. I know you're aware there was a finding against Uber on an agency claim that we are [25:01] appealing. But when it really comes to allegations of did we do enough? Was Uber reasonable in its [25:08] approach to safety? The jury said, yeah, you are and decided in our favor. And we were pleased with that [25:15] after showing all of the documents and interview evidence to the jury. Yeah. So let's talk about that [25:22] case. The jury in this case found that Uber was liable in this plaintiff's rape because the driver was [25:29] acting as, quote, an apparent agent of the company, Uber is appealing that piece of the decision. [25:36] You mentioned the jury found in Uber's favor and a number of the other claims. But tell me about why [25:40] Uber is appealing that apparent agent finding. It is Uber's belief that it was kind of a square peg, [25:47] round hole situation where the court was applying employment law to a rideshare industry where employment [25:56] law doesn't apply because drivers are not employees of Uber. They are third-party independent contractors. [26:03] So that's the rub. So not only do we believe the court got it wrong in instructing the jury and [26:10] giving them an opportunity to consider this apparent agency claim, but then within those instructions, [26:18] we took issue with the way they were instructed on the scope. In other words, in employment context, [26:25] the question that a jury decides is, was this bad act done within the scope of the employment? [26:32] And our position and what we think is correct under Arizona law is that the scope question should have [26:39] been, was this alleged sexual interaction within the scope of what this driver was supposed to be [26:46] doing? And I think we can all agree that absolutely not. That this driver was going to take the [26:53] passenger from point A to point B and sexual intercourse was not part of that proposition. [26:59] Yeah. I mean, I, I want to just dig into this a little bit more because I think for people who [27:04] are listening, who may not sort of understand, um, the, the legal technicalities here, it sounds [27:11] confusing that an Uber driver wouldn't be considered an agent of Uber. We all, I think, understand this [27:17] idea that, that the drivers are not employees. The company has talked a lot about that, but the only reason a [27:23] rider ends up with that driver is because they found them on Uber. And I think we also, you know, [27:27] you show up at the airport, there are the random guys who say, Hey, do you want to ride? And you say, [27:31] no, because I feel safer taking an Uber because of the brand is associated with safety. We know that [27:37] at least to some level, these drivers have been vetted. So I just think maybe people would be confused [27:42] by this idea that the driver is not an agent. I think it comes down to a distinction from a legal [27:48] perspective between what an agent is and what we use in our everyday lay language. There are [27:55] parameters on what it means to be an employee, what it means to be an independent contractor, [28:00] what it means to be an agent. And the terms of service for Uber have always included very specific [28:07] language that drivers are not agents. They're not apparent agents. They're not employees. They don't [28:14] have to report in and say when they're going to drive. They don't have to drive a specific car. [28:21] They can, as independent contractors, make their own schedule. And that is something that everyone [28:28] must agree to before using the app. And from a rider perspective, [28:33] should you just understand that when you've agreed to the terms of service, which say drivers are [28:39] independent contractors, they're not employees, they're not agents, that then you are sort of [28:44] taking on whatever risks might be, you know, inherent in getting in that random person's car? [28:49] Well, I think that the law allows claims to be brought for negligence. But what the jury in Phoenix [28:58] was asked to decide is whether or not Uber acted with reasonable care to prevent a foreseeable risk. [29:07] And in the case of the Phoenix trial, the jury heard that the driver in question had not just passed the [29:14] initial background check, but 12 background checks over the course of his time driving on the Uber [29:22] platform. So the question of foreseeability is, did Uber have reason to believe that a driver would be [29:31] problematic or would commit a crime? And in the case in Phoenix, the jury heard that this driver [29:37] had a very high star rating, lots of great feedback, had been a rideshare driver for 6.5 years without [29:45] problems, passed all the background checks. And when the question was, did Uber do anything wrong? [29:52] I think they found and they did find that we acted with reasonable care to prevent any foreseeable risk. [29:59] And that's what it comes down to. [30:00] One of the things that came up at trial was Uber's safety risk assessment score or SRAD score. [30:08] When I spoke with Rachel Abrams, she sort of noted that this incorporates factors like the day and [30:13] time of the ride. Is the ride picking up near a bar? And I think the question that I had certainly [30:19] listening to that description, the fact that Uber makes this calculation, this estimate is, [30:25] why doesn't Uber share that score or other information about those common risk factors that [30:31] it know exists with riders before they get in the car? [30:34] One of the allegations in the trial was that Uber was negligent for having this program and not telling [30:40] riders about it. And in fact, this plaintiff said if she had known, she never would have taken an Uber. [30:46] And the jury rejected that. And they said, no, that's not right. I think once everyone hears the [30:52] evidence and what this program is about, they realize that Uber is as a technology company [31:00] using this data that they've gathered for good. And so what it is doing is using data across [31:08] literally millions of rides to figure out on an aggregate level, how to decrease risk. And I think [31:16] there is sometimes a misconception that somehow it's a it's a score to show whether or not the driver [31:23] is safe. And that could not be further from the truth. It's really looking at categories to build [31:28] the best match possible. I guess I'm still left with the question, why not share that information? [31:35] And perhaps even with riders and drivers, because I hear what you're saying that that certainly it makes [31:40] sense that this is intended to decrease risk and put people in safe matches. And I wonder, as a [31:47] rider, would you still want to ultimately be able to make that decision for yourself or to get in the [31:52] car and call your partner on the way home so that you have a little backup or or something like that? [31:57] I just I'm sort of curious about the the decision making around not sharing that information with [32:02] riders and drivers. I think that it comes down to being able to provide information that would be [32:09] actionable for someone. And that's not what this does. There is no number, so to speak, that could [32:14] be provided that would give an average, you know, rider or driver any insight into what it means. The [32:21] numbers that are coming from this machine learning algorithm are very complicated. They're ever changing. [32:29] And it's not in a position to provide data that a user like us could look at and have any context for [32:38] because of the way that the program works with different thresholds set for different times of [32:43] day. It is one of many features that Uber has available. There's a share my ride feature that we [32:52] encourage everyone to use. So SRAD is just one of like a portfolio of multi-layered products. And once I [32:59] think you see where it fits in, you realize there is a lot of information that's given to riders. [33:04] Will you walk through some of those other safety features? [33:07] Oh, absolutely. So the jury heard that as of November 2023, which was the incident time that [33:16] was at issue in Phoenix, there was a huge number of features. And I can tell you that even now, [33:22] there's even more. So at that time, there was in-app audio recording, where either a driver or a [33:29] rider can get in and turn it on to record that trip. There's definitely the share your trip. [33:35] You know, there's GPS tracking. There is something called a ride check that we talked about quite a [33:42] bit in the trial because it came into play in that case, where if you deviate from the course you're [33:49] supposed to go or have a long stop, you'll get an alert on the phone that says, hey, what's going on? [33:56] Like we see that you've stopped or we see you're off track. Do you need assistance? That is often [34:02] followed by a call if there is no answer. In addition to that, there's the ability for riders [34:08] to call 911. Uber now allows you to text. And if you text to 911, it shares your location. It shares [34:17] the license plate of the car and allows law enforcement to take action. There's an ADT function. [34:24] You can call if you think, hey, this may not be a police deal, but I'm uncomfortable. We encourage [34:31] you to press on the ADT security button, and there's always a person there who can talk to you [34:38] and just be on the phone. Then there's everything from pin verification. Obviously, the address [34:44] anonymization is a feature that's been offered. There's an on-trip toolkit where you can go and have [34:51] all of this at your fingertips. The list goes on and on. [34:54] One thing that Rachel talked about was the sort of question around the effectiveness [34:58] of the ride check feature that you mentioned. She said in the case of the plaintiff in Arizona, [35:03] she didn't see the ride check message because she was being raped when she received it. Does Uber [35:08] follow up if riders don't respond to those ride check messages? [35:12] In the particular case you're talking about, that's exactly what happened. There was a ride [35:17] check that came in, there was not a response, and then there was a call, and that is the protocol. [35:22] What the jury learned when they heard evidence that 99% of the time, the ride checks are false [35:30] positives, and it's not feasible for the police, for example, to be notified. So in the trial, [35:38] when this came up, there were experts who testified about deterrence. And one of the things that we [35:47] have found is although ride check, for example, may not be the end-all be-all to save someone from [35:55] a bad thing happening in that situation, knowing that ride check as well as the suite of other [36:02] safety features is on really does deter bad behavior. [36:07] On the point of deterrence, why not require camera recording so that everybody knows what's [36:14] happening all of the time? I would imagine that would deter some of these situations. [36:19] There were two allegations of design defect that went to the jury. One of them was, hey, [36:25] you should have had a dash cam. And the second one was, hey, you should have had this women [36:30] preference ability for the plaintiff to choose a female driver. And both of [36:37] those alleged design defects were rejected by the jury after we were able to show the evidence. [36:44] That over the last many years, Uber has committed literally millions of dollars to [36:51] researching and developing dash cams. And what has happened is there is a variety of different [36:58] roadblocks and hurdles. One of them, of course, is technological. That makes sense. The storage [37:04] capabilities of an individual's phone or an individual camera. The ability to monitor those [37:10] and install those has been problematic. And also privacy concerns coming from both the driver and [37:17] the rider. So what was the fix? Well, obviously, the audio recording is available on either side. [37:24] And now there is a camera video recording option in the driver's phone. So if you get into an Uber, [37:31] your driver may be doing a video monitoring. And we encourage that. I think the thing that I hope [37:38] everyone understands, and I know the jury really took away, is that when we look at a tech company [37:44] like Uber, we understand that it's a tech company. It relies on the support of a lot of third-party [37:52] interest groups that have come to Uber and said, we know you're not experts in sexual assault. We know [37:58] you don't do this every day. Let us help you. And Uber has taken that help. We're not going to be [38:04] able to eliminate sexual assault in our society. I wish we could. I wish we could absolutely eliminate [38:10] it on the platform. But Uber is doing what it can. And I was very happy to see that after hearing three [38:16] weeks of evidence, that's what the jury decided as well. Uber maintains its commitment to safety and [38:22] is always looking at ways to make the platform safer. Thanks so much to Kim Bueno and Rachel [38:29] Abrams. After my conversations with them, Uber was found liable in a second federal bellwether trial [38:35] in North Carolina. A jury ordered the company to pay $5,000 to a woman who said her driver grabbed [38:41] her inner thigh and made an inappropriate comment during a late-night ride in 2019. In a comment, [38:48] an Uber spokesperson noted the relatively small size of the award and said the company has, quote, [38:53] strong grounds for appeal. The next time you take a rideshare, make sure you're using those [38:59] available safety features, like audio recording and sharing your trip with a friend. Women can also [39:05] set their driver preference to women only. If you're going to be out late with friends, consider making a [39:11] plan to travel all together back to someone's place. It's the old school rule. You're safer in numbers. [39:18] And if you were harassed or assaulted while on a ride, the apps offer a place to report safety [39:24] incidents in your ride history. Rachel also encourages survivors to go to the police. [39:29] Your report might help protect other riders. That's it for this week's episode of Terms of Service. [39:35] I'm Claire Duffy. Talk to you next week.