Brooks and Capehart on Trump and Vance clashing with Pope Leo

[0:00] President Trump claims that Iran has agreed to everything in talks with the U.S., [0:05] including suspending its nuclear program. That comes at the end of a week in which he feuded [0:09] with the pope, and two lawmakers suddenly resigned from Congress. For all of that and more, [0:14] we turn now to the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That is The Atlantic's David Brooks [0:19] and Jonathan Capehart of MS Now. It's great to see you both. Let's start [0:23] overseas, because there are a couple big headlines with the wars there. Jonathan, [0:27] as you saw, a ceasefire earlier in the week with Lebanon to stop the fighting between Israel [0:31] and Hezbollah, and then the U.S. and Iran announcing the Strait of Hormuz is open, [0:35] though evidence is suggesting otherwise. There's also this, that the president says, [0:39] Iran says it's going to suspend its nuclear program, it's going to stop backing Hezbollah [0:44] and Hamas, continuing to say the war is nearly over. Do you believe that's happening? [0:49] No. I mean, this has been my issue with this war from the very beginning. I have a hard time [0:59] trusting what the administration says, and certainly what the president says, just given how [1:05] he brought the country into this war to begin with. And we have seen him make very definitive [1:11] statements only to see, you know, action on the ground say otherwise. And also, I can't get over [1:20] the fact that all of these things that we're talking about, the Strait of Hormuz has been reopened. [1:24] Well, it was open before the war even started, or things being talked about about the plutonium. [1:32] Well, there was an agreement. It's called the JCPOA, the Iran nuclear deal that he ripped up when he [1:38] came into office, the first go-round. So, sure, great. I hope the president is right that the war [1:46] is nearing an end. But until it actually ends, I'll believe it when I see it. [1:52] MS. David, what about you? Trump's saying that Iran has agreed to everything in the talks. Do you buy that? [1:57] MR. No, that's not credible. I mean, the Iranians are more likely to convert to Christianity. [2:04] I do think that the entire world, except for maybe Bibi Netanyahu, wants this war to be over. [2:11] The American people clearly want to be over, looking at the polls. The Europeans do. [2:15] The Chinese do. The Gulf states do. I think the Iranians do. I think, you know, [2:19] they have taken some brutal assaults. And the blockade of Iranian trade seems to be working. [2:25] And so I do think people want it to be over. But I don't think the Iranians are in any position where [2:30] they think they have to give up everything, because they feel they sort of won this war. [2:34] And so the question will be, over the next week, who can exert leverage [2:38] to get at least as much as they can? And to me, you know, I'd shrink the war aims. [2:45] Can we get uranium, the Iranian uranium, that's hard to say, in exchange for maybe releasing some [2:52] of their funds? And that would be fine. At this stage, to do that would be something of an [2:57] achievement to salvage from this war. MS. I want to ask you also about something [3:02] we reported on earlier, which is the president somehow feuding with Pope Leo. Jonathan, [3:08] we heard Liz reporting on it earlier as well. As a way of background, Pope Leo issued a pretty [3:12] strong statement rebuking the war in Iran. Trump then unloaded on him online. Vice President Vance [3:18] jumped in to criticize him as well, telling him to be careful on matters of theology. [3:24] Is it smart for the president to be getting into it with the pope? What does he stand to gain from that? [3:30] MR. No, it's not smart at all to be getting into it with the pope, to be fighting with the pope, [3:36] even though the president says, I'm not fighting with the pope. Yes, you are. And over something [3:40] where it's like the president is taking the words from the pope very, very seriously, when any pope, [3:48] Pope Leo, Pope Francis, Pope John Paul, would have been saying the same thing. Because [3:54] this is about life and death. This is about right and wrong. And it's something big that's happening [4:01] in the world that has commanded the pope's attention. And so, I'm not Catholic. I went to [4:08] Catholic school. But I can understand Catholics in America, but around the world, being very offended [4:16] by how the president has talked about the pope, talked to the pope, put images of himself as a pope. [4:25] And then just one other thing. The vice president of the United States converted to Catholicism nine [4:31] years ago. For him to tell the vicar of Christ, who's been a priest for 34 years, that he needs to, [4:41] quote, be careful about how he talks about theology. It's one of the most insulting things I think I could [4:48] have possibly ever hear being said, one, to the pontiff, but two, from the vice president of the [4:56] United States. All of this is maddening and surreal. David, what do you make of this? I mean, [5:02] the way the president criticized the pope, and then for Vice President Vance to speak of him the way that [5:07] he did. What are you taking away from this? Well, the president was sacrilegious. The Easter texts [5:14] were vulgar and crude on Easter. And then the Jesus image was legitimately sacrilegious. And so I think [5:22] one of the great cons that Donald Trump has pulled off is the idea that he's a man of faith. And I think [5:27] after the last few days, even a lot of Trump supporters are acknowledging, well, he's not a person of [5:32] faith. He's not a man of God, because nobody asks that way. I agree with Jonathan that you shouldn't, [5:37] J.D. Vance shouldn't be questioning the pope after being Catholic for nine and a half minutes. [5:42] But I do think what you see here is the contrast between the way Trump has gone into this war, [5:48] which is cavalier in the extreme, and Catholic just war theory, which trace backs to Augustine [5:53] Aquinas, which is intellectually rigorous. And you have to be a just war, you have to clear a series of [6:00] hurdles that make sure you're doing the thing right. And you've thought about this carefully. [6:05] And in some ways, I do think they've cleared some of the hurdles. There has to be just cause. [6:10] It has to be morally righteous. I think that's arguable. But some of the other hurdles, it is [6:14] clearly not caused. Is there right intention? Donald Trump has not explained what our goals and [6:19] intentions are. So there's no right intention. Is it last resort? Have we given diplomacy every rule? [6:24] Well, obviously not. Is there a probability of success? Well, there was no clear probability of [6:29] success because it wasn't carefully calculated. So one of the things you see with what the pope is [6:34] doing, he's trying to put an intellectual rigorous process on how you evaluate a very deadly policy. [6:42] And the Trump administration is completely incapable of thinking in these terms. [6:46] Can I ask you both to weigh in quickly? Because you both mentioned the images. I want to remind [6:50] people what those images were. These were posted by President Trump, an AI image of himself being held [6:56] by Jesus, another one of him as Jesus, which he says he thought showed him as a doctor and he later [7:02] deleted. And then there's the one at the end there, which is him as the pope, which is from back in [7:07] 2025. Just very quickly, Jonathan, for people who previously said this is the president just posting jokes, [7:12] do you think this is different? Which part of it? I mean, they can say the president was just making [7:21] a joke. This is the excuse they use every time the president does something and then gets criticized for [7:27] it. But these images that he's been showing, you know, to use the word that David used before, [7:35] sacrilegious, blasphemous, the idea that evangelicals, leaders of faith, [7:42] Catholic leaders have not come out on mass and forcefully denounced the president for for doing [7:48] this is a bit mystifying to me. I hope that that changes, but he shouldn't be doing it. [7:54] And there should be other leaders, political leaders in his party who would have should have the guts to [8:00] go to him and say, you know, Mr. President, perhaps you should be focused on lowering gas prices, [8:06] figuring out affordability and health care than staying up in the middle of the night and generating [8:11] means. David, briefly on the images, do people in his base in particular, do you think that hurts him? [8:17] The Catholics who support Trump that I know were more offended, frankly, by the Easter texts or the [8:23] truth social posts than by the images, because here here was the risen the day commemorating the risen [8:28] Christ. And he was doing vulgar, profane, bloodthirsty texts on a day that shows he had no reflection of [8:37] what this day was all about. And I think that was shocking to some of his supporters, even more than [8:43] the images, which could have been a joke, but tasteless. [8:45] I do want to ask you about events on Capitol Hill, because we saw two resignations amid sexual [8:50] misconduct allegations, one of Republican Congressman Tony Gonzalez and the other of Democrat Eric [8:55] Swalwell, who also, we should note, faces rape accusations, which he denies, and whose fall from [9:00] grace, Jonathan, it's fair to say, was very, very swift. Why do you think it was so fast and there [9:06] was a bipartisan push in this moment? [9:08] Well, I think when it comes to Congressman Swalwell, you know, the accusations were very serious. [9:15] A big signal to me about the seriousness of the allegations against him was when [9:21] Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi went on the record saying, as I've discussed with the congressman, [9:27] perhaps he should deal with this outside of a run for office. And so his gubernatorial campaign to [9:33] me was on borrowed time. And I also wondered if he would be forced to resign from Congress. But then [9:40] women started coming forward. And, you know, we talked about the meteoric rise of people. I don't [9:46] think we have a corresponding word for the precipitous decline. He was out within 48 hours or so of the [9:54] original, the original accusation. That's been surprising. But when it comes to Congressman Gonzalez, [10:02] we've been talking about that. That's been a story in Washington for a long time now. The fact that the two [10:08] of them resigned and left Congress at the same time, I'm sure there's some politics involved. I'm sure [10:13] there's some house math involved because of the slim majority of Republicans. But either way, the focus [10:20] should be on the accusers and their stories when it comes to Congressman Swalwell and the young woman who [10:29] took her life who was involved with Congressman Gonzalez. [10:33] JUDY WOODRUFF, David, the final word here to you in the last 30 seconds or so. [10:35] DAVID BROOKS, Yeah, I think this was so swift because of shifts in the culture over the last [10:42] 10 or 15 years. You know, you start with the MeToo movement. You go on to the Epstein case and the [10:46] number of people who are willing to pal around with him. And then you have these cases. And I think it's [10:52] become clear that the tolerance, the public tolerance for monstrous behavior is low and that women know [11:00] there will be a support network for them. And so this is a sign of moral progress that we're able to [11:07] dismiss these cases with the speed which we just saw. [11:10] JUDY WOODRUFF, we'll take a sign of moral progress wherever we can get it. David Brooks, [11:14] Jonathan Capehart, thank you so much to you both. [11:16] DAVID BROOKS, Thanks, Amna. [11:16] DAVID BROOKS, Support journalism you trust. Support PBS News. Donate now or even better, [11:35] start a monthly contribution today.