Bridge of Lies: A Bonus Conversation with Brad Mielke

[0:00] This is Deborah Roberts here with the final bonus episode of our latest true crime series from ABC [0:05] 2020 and ABC Audio, Bridge of Lies. Next week, we'll be right back here to tell you about a [0:12] whole new series about another heartbreaking case, so don't go anywhere. But for now, [0:17] here's the final episode of Bridge of Lies. Hey, I'm Brad Milkey. I'm host of ABC's flagship [0:25] daily news podcast, Start Here, and welcome to a final special episode to close out Bridge of [0:30] Lies. I'm here with your host, Juju Chang, to reflect on the series, dig into the behind the [0:36] scenes, and examine some footage that has not been heard yet in this series. And for many of you, [0:41] this podcast is probably not your introduction to Juju. If at any point, while listening to Bridge [0:45] of Lies, you thought, wow, that voice sounds really familiar, it's probably because she's been on your [0:49] TV screen many times before. Juju is the co-anchor of ABC's Nightline. She's reported on countless [0:55] editions of 2020. She's anchored live coverage and special editions, and in fact, she just returned [0:59] from Japan and South Korea with a few more stories for the network. So Juju, I'm out of breath just [1:04] describing your job. Thank you for being here. My pleasure. You know, I'm the biggest fan of [1:08] Start Here, so happy always to be with you, Brad. Yeah, well, it's so great to see you. And like I [1:13] said, you got this long resume. With Bridge of Lies, you actually add like a new feather to your cap. [1:17] You're now a podcast host. We'll talk more about that role later. But I want to just start with the [1:22] story itself, since I think so many of us have been listening to this whole series with bated breath. [1:26] On just like a personal human level, Juju, how did this story kind of sit with you? [1:32] Well, Sarah Stern was just 19 when she disappeared. And I have three sons, as you know, [1:36] and they're about this age range. And, you know, they have their entire lives out in front of them. [1:41] They have so much promise. And she was a very talented artist, and she had lots of friends. And [1:46] just all of that mystery unfolding at the beginning of her life is really captivating. But in addition to [1:53] that, you get to start seeing her relationship with her father, her relationship with her friends, [1:58] and what this young adulthood felt like. It's just an incredibly riveting story. [2:03] Well, and obviously, like she passed before any of this sort of came to the attention of the news [2:08] media. You obviously never met Sarah Stern. It's been 10 years since she passed, I think. So as you're [2:13] sort of starting to think about this multi-part story, how do you and your team think about painting [2:19] that portrait of someone you haven't met? Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's one of those [2:22] things where you look at footage of her talking in Google Hangouts with her friends. You look at [2:27] her picture, which is still memorialized on the bridge. She was a young woman who clearly had a lot [2:33] of light in her life. But you also get a sense from a lot of the audio that we were able to delve into [2:41] how the investigators approached this story. You know, we had all these 2020 interviews with the [2:46] search crews who went out initially when they thought maybe when they found her car on the [2:50] side of a bridge, maybe she jumped. Maybe she had fled to Canada and they were searching frantically [2:54] for her body. Then you start getting the audio of the investigators interviewing all of her closest [3:00] friends and family trying to get to the bottom of it. And then, of course, the mystery starts to [3:05] unfold and you get real police interrogations. And I went on to the bridge where, you know, her car was [3:11] found. And it's a really big, tall bridge. It's a working class town. Everybody in the town sort of [3:17] was riveted by the story because when she disappeared, it was such a mystery. [3:22] What's it like there? [3:23] Well, when you drive through the neighborhoods, it's a classic sort of working class shore town, [3:28] you know, small, little, neat, gingerbread type houses. And she came from an area called Neptune [3:33] City. The suspects that emerged during this case are childhood friends of hers. They went to [3:40] elementary school together. They hung out at the pizza shop. They were, you know, local kids. [3:46] Hey, and when we think about Sarah, like she was very much part of this online community kind of [3:50] ahead of her time. If you look at how like just influencer driven the media landscape is now, [3:54] she was at the time following people that we would probably call content creators. It was clear that [3:59] back then police did not know how to categorize like this world. She fancied the idea of becoming kind [4:04] of an online personality herself. And your team, you mentioned, actually found Google Hangout videos that [4:10] she and her friends would publish. Like, what did you kind of learn from these? [4:13] So we were able to uncover a lot about her. We found her old tweets and her Tumblr posts. [4:18] We really got a sense of her humor. I mean, also, we figured out how she decorates her bedroom. And [4:24] she had, you know, dimples when she smiled. And there are all sorts of, you know, details about how [4:29] she loved Disneyland and, you know, just getting a sense of who she was. The cool thing about these [4:35] Google Hangouts was that you get to see Sarah being a normal teenager, kind of being silly, [4:41] kind of chill, hanging with her friends. And with this YouTube channel, you get to know her and the [4:46] sound of her voice. But we have a little bit of tape actually of Sarah Googling her name to see [4:51] what pops up. [4:51] If you look up Sarah, Sarah, and there's like no dance, you'll see me. Sarah, Sarah Silverman. [4:57] And then there's like Sarah Palin. Just like, what? [5:01] Juju, it's wild hearing that because in some ways, the internet is a reflection of what the [5:07] world knows about you. And, you know, you Google yourself and you hear these Google searches [5:11] bringing up other Sarahs like Sarah Silverman or Sarah Palin. She just sounds like almost [5:15] disappointed. [5:16] Absolutely. You know, you also hear her voice. She's 19. She's, you know, she's a kid as far [5:22] as I'm concerned because I have children that age. And I feel like you get a glimpse into [5:27] what her friends were doing at the time. And that is where a lot of the investigation is [5:33] centered, is with her friends and how much they hung out, what they knew, what she trusted [5:38] when she told them secrets. And that is how the mystery unfolds. [5:43] As a journalist yourself, like what made this sort of a unique story? Like were there particular [5:49] aspects or components here that made you go like, whoa, this actually stands out in a [5:54] different way than I'm used to? [5:55] So Sarah's mother died when she was younger. And it was a source of two issues. One was [6:02] that obviously she was sad. But the other thing is that she then, after her mother passed, [6:07] she discovered some cash, actually a lot of it, some of it that had been damaged because [6:12] it was so old. [6:13] Right. [6:13] That became a focal point of the investigation. Obviously, what that cash did was incentivize [6:20] the people who betrayed her. The thing that stuck out to me, though, Brad, which is your [6:24] question, is that there was another young friend who was in this same group of friends who decided [6:31] that when this happened, his conscience made him step forward and say, you know what, I had [6:37] information on what happened. And that is what led to this sort of daring sting operation. [6:44] And he risked his life, you know, getting in the car with a suspected killer. And that, [6:49] to me, really sort of hit my heart. [6:51] I got to tell you, Juju, like listening to this episode with the sort of hidden camera [6:55] and microphone in the car, I was walking my dog and I'm just like stopped there on the [7:00] sidewalk listening to this tape. Because how often have you just heard a suspect bear it [7:06] all like that? Like, what was it like when you heard that tape for the first time? [7:08] I felt the same way you did. It stopped me in my tracks because there are a couple of [7:13] things on that tape. And that's what makes it such a great podcast, right? It all is audio, [7:17] right? You hear him kind of nervously singing as he's on his way to the rendezvous point. [7:24] His friend pats him down, bro, right before he starts to confess. Then the investigators [7:29] say, I've never heard a confession spill out so fast. [7:32] Because it barely took any prompting. [7:34] It barely took any prompting. He admits to all of it and he describes it in such horrible, [7:39] gruesome detail. Then he talks about how the dog witnessed all of it, which was really [7:45] left me cold. And then finally, the sigh at the end where he gets out of the car and he [7:52] knows he's got the goods and he just exhales. And the sound of that, literally thinking about [8:00] it, gives me goosebumps. [8:01] Well, and it feels like all of us in that moment is like, what did I just listen to? [8:05] But obviously so much more high stakes for him. [8:07] Completely. [8:08] And by the way, Juju, like this, you know, we edit it down in Bridge of Lies, of course, [8:13] because it's like a 45 minutes video that they took from that car. And there is material [8:18] that did not make it into the episode. Anything that stuck out to you? [8:20] Absolutely. I can't imagine how much adrenaline is going through Anthony Curry's body, right, [8:27] during this 45 minutes. But at one point, they're parked on a dark beach parking lot. And they're, [8:34] you know, the glass is getting foggy and they're in there together. And he's sitting with [8:39] his friend, who he thinks may have killed another friend. And then somebody knocks on the window. [8:44] Somebody comes up to them and knocks on the window of the car and they have to like, [8:48] deal with this woman. [8:50] How do you roll this window down? [8:52] It's over here. [8:52] Can you guys do me a huge favor? Give me a ride like right down the road? [8:55] Nah, I can't. I got so much in my back. I'm sorry. I can't. [8:58] Really? [8:59] Yeah. [8:59] Please? [9:00] Nah, I really can't. I'm sorry about that. [9:11] Nah, hell no, I'm not giving me a ride. You can steal my equipment and [9:15] get the f*** out of here. I don't know. [9:16] You don't know who you're talking to about killing people. You're going to ask me for a ride? [9:21] Get the f*** out of here. [9:22] Oh, that's wild, Juju. They're just getting interrupted in the middle of like, [9:27] kind of the height of this thing. [9:28] Absolutely. And he even says, I'm sitting here talking about killing people. And she [9:33] knocks on the door. And it's just so real because she says to them, really? You can't give me a ride? [9:39] In the middle of, I mean, it's just such drama. [9:42] Right. [9:43] And the thing is, in that moment, Anthony later tells us that he thought that it was [9:47] part of the operation, that maybe the whole sting was about to go up and smoke. [9:51] I always thought that was like a detective, but everybody's saying it wasn't. It was just [9:54] some random lady. I thought it was like they were just checking up. I didn't know how it [9:57] just works. I never had to go through something like that before. I thought they were like [10:01] checking up, but it apparently wasn't. It was just some random lady. [10:05] It's wild. What are the odds, right? [10:06] Unbelievable moments. And when we're talking about stuff that was sort of on the cutting room [10:09] floor, when we come back, let's focus on our host. Let's talk about Juju Chang and where [10:13] she kind of fits into this whole story. We're back after this. And we are back. And I'm extra [10:29] excited for this part because, Juju, I want to talk about you because you've been with ABC News [10:33] since well before me. You've been covering huge stories. You've been the face of the network in [10:37] so many ways. You're a pro. Now with Bridge of Lies, you add something new. You're a podcast host [10:43] all of a sudden. How different is an audio podcast from the TV work that you've always done? [10:48] Well, I have to say, hats off to the podcasting team here at ABC Audio. This is my, as you say, [10:54] my first voyage into the world of podcasting. And it's such a different kind of storytelling, [11:00] which I respect so much because, you know, I love the idea of sound design, right? Because you're just [11:06] sort of able to layer it with sound and music and audio. And you get to live in the audio of it in [11:14] a different way. And, you know, the one cue that I kept getting from our producers like, Juju, slow [11:19] down. Like, you know, think about what you're saying, build a visual picture. And it was really [11:25] helpful because I'm used to doing it in a broadcast voice where you can see the picture that I'm [11:31] describing, right? But now we're slowing down and asking you to create those images in your [11:36] own head. And it's a stirring, different kind of podcast. And you know, Brad, I'm a huge fan of [11:41] podcasts. I listen to Start Here every day. I'm constantly emailing you. You text me after episodes. [11:46] Exactly. I constantly text you after episodes. And I'm a girl who listens to podcasts on my dog walk [11:51] every day. So I understand and appreciate this level of detail when it comes to this kind of [11:57] storytelling. Yeah. But Juju, for people who don't know, like, what is the actual process like? [12:01] Like, how does the actual pod come together in your eyes? Well, to my mind, I'm incredibly [12:07] impressed by our producers because they're leapfrogging each other on episodes, right? And [12:11] they know this material cold. I mean, I've worked on a lot of 2020s and the 2020 producers are [12:17] phenomenal as well. But these podcast producers have literally read every transcript. They've read [12:24] every court document. They're constantly like schooling me on, no, no, you can't change that word, [12:28] you do. And it's incredibly layered, right? Not just the editorial, but the sounds and the music [12:36] and everything else that helps create this richness of the scenery that goes into this kind of podcasting. [12:43] It is interesting how much of a team operation it is that I think people don't quite understand, [12:47] right? Oh, absolutely. Plus, I get to sit in the studio and wear sweatpants and not worry [12:54] about what my hair and makeup look like. Yeah, exactly. Hey, and in a broader, like, [12:58] news sense, like, because you've covered lots of different types of stories, what draws you to [13:03] a true crime story? Like, what do you look for? You know, it's interesting. I have done a lot of 2020s [13:08] and I've done a lot of true crime for Nightline as well, which is the show, as you know, that I co-anchor. [13:13] But I've always looked for true crime stories as a means to an end, like to talk about mass [13:21] incarceration or to talk about criminalized survivorship when domestic violence survivors, [13:27] you know, get over penalized or talk about consent or talk about different types of crimes [13:33] or redemption arcs, right? But I recently signed on to help develop a comedy about true crime, [13:41] and I was Googling up, why do people love true crime, including myself? And I think I know the [13:49] answer, but then when I Googled it up, it said actually women like it because they like to be [13:54] able to find the sort of covert narcissist in their lives. So it's called a defensive posture, [14:00] psychologically. They're watching to protect themselves because, like, [14:04] I see these behaviors in my life, I see. Right, right. The husband who is accused of [14:10] of trying to pummel and throw his, you know, wife off of a Hawaii cliff, the husband who this, [14:17] the husband who that, or frankly, the wife who was convicted of maybe fentanyl poisoning her husband [14:23] with a Moscow mule. I mean, like, these are like things that you kind of are taking mental notes on. [14:30] But also for women who are true crime enthusiasts, and I count myself among them, [14:36] you also love the stories, to me, the heroism of the investigators. I have interviewed so many [14:43] investigators, Brad, who've left me with tears in my eyes because their dedication and their desire [14:50] to do what's right and to find justice and to get some comfort for victims' families, [14:56] and to be able to bring these people to life. You know, Sarah Stern's life was snuffed out at 19. [15:02] And to be able to talk about her art and to be able to talk about the scholarship they endowed in [15:07] her name, to be able to talk about who she was, who she wanted to be, is really a gift. And so for me, [15:14] the podcast allowed us to delve into all that. [15:17] But I think it's so valuable that what you described is so many of these stories that we [15:22] think of them as individual stories, but they do have these sort of universal, I don't know if [15:27] they're lessons or just like reflections of the culture. And that's so valuable, even in this, [15:31] like you're hearing somebody with like these psychopathic tendencies that you might not have [15:35] known about in real life, and yet it's there lurking the whole time. [15:38] Totally. That tells you something. [15:40] Totally. And that is drama. That is pathos. That is, you know, King Lear. That is [15:45] Shakespearean or Greek epic tragedy. It is storytelling as it has been for millennia. And [15:51] podcasting is just a modern, you know, view of that. And I think true crime is, you know, [15:58] it is expanding for a reason. I think it allows us to dive into psychology. And sometimes it's a [16:04] psychopath. And sometimes it's a cold blooded killer who's trying to do something, you know, [16:10] and thinks he or she can get away with it. You kind of just mentioned several examples, [16:14] so I don't want to put you on the spot. But I mean, if you had a Mount Rushmore of sort of true [16:19] crime stories in your time at ABC, what are they? Like, there's been so many. [16:25] I mean, honestly, I recently went to LA and did the story of the Menendez brothers' appeals, [16:33] right? And that is a story that has been in our media echo chamber for 35 years. [16:40] And our collective consciousness, right? [16:42] Exactly. And I think that the reexamination of that prosecution, the reexamination of what [16:48] sex crimes against children do, the trauma of that, is seen in a different light today than it was 35 [16:55] years ago. And I think, again, it brings up all these issues. I have gone to Bedford Women's Prison and [17:01] talked to Pamela Smart repeatedly because, as you know, before the O.J. Simpson trial, [17:07] her trial was the trial of the century. It was at the dawn of Court TV. She was convicted of aiding [17:14] and abetting a group of young men, one of whom she had an affair with, who killed her husband. And [17:21] that now, again, 35 years later, that redemption arc or the attempt at a redemption arc is really [17:29] fascinating because she has been a model citizen behind bars for 30 plus years. [17:34] My name is Pamela Smart. I'm accused of being an accomplice to the murder of my husband, Greg, [17:40] but I am not guilty. [17:42] You've been through many appeals processes. Your new lawyer is arguing that your constitutional rights [17:49] were violated. [17:50] They were. [17:50] During trial. And that you didn't get a fair trial. [17:53] I did not. [17:54] So it, again, it raises a lot of questions in our minds when we tell these stories. [18:01] Right. [18:01] The other one is the Murdoch story. [18:06] We interviewed the stars of the sort of scripted series based on it and the level of attention. [18:15] Talk about knowing the trial details. [18:18] They knew every iota of that case, but also talk about Shakespearean. [18:23] That was an epic family that was brought to its knees with this controversy. [18:29] And you could see the decline of this, the House of Murdoch, as it were. [18:33] And then finally, I think near mythological, and that is the Black Dahlia case and the Zodiac [18:38] killers case. And I interviewed Alex Baber and he is the true crime sleuth, you know, [18:44] an amateur detective on some level who set out to crack the Zodiac code. [18:50] What does all this circumstantial evidence say to you? [18:53] Marvin Margolis is a Zodiac killer and the Black Dahlia Avenger. [18:57] And believes, you know, to his mind, he has proven that the Zodiac killer was also [19:04] responsible for the Black Dahlia killing. [19:06] You're that? [19:06] Sure. [19:07] Without sounding cocky or arrogant, I have to say, yes, I am undoubtedly sure that this is the right guy. [19:13] And he has made all sorts of breakthroughs and he has law enforcement interested. And that [19:19] story was told on Nightline and also on Impact by Nightline, which shameless plug moment, [19:25] was also gives us an opportunity to dive deeper, kind of like this podcast does, [19:32] to go behind the headlines, to go deeper and more layered into this kind of storytelling. [19:37] And featured on Start Here, of course. [19:39] Of course. [19:40] Just like such good reporting in this podcast in particular on Bridge of Lies, Juju. Really [19:45] impressive work. And thank you so much for doing this. I think it really helps us [19:48] learn a little bit more about the host who's been guiding us for these six episodes. [19:52] Thank you so much, Brad, for having me. But honestly, one of my favorite parts of the podcast [19:56] is being able to read the credits, because it's so fun to like say my friends' names and my colleagues' [20:01] names and give credit where credit is due. [20:03] All right. Well, with that in mind, I should say, [20:06] Juju Chang is the host of Bridge of Lies. She's the co-anchor of Nightline. Congrats on the series. [20:10] And if you are listening to this right now, you've probably listened to the rest of the series, but [20:13] make sure to rate and review the show wherever you're listening. Juju and the whole team will [20:18] thank you for it. You want to listen for the next true crime series from ABC Audio. It's called Blood [20:23] and Water. It's the story of a mother who's murdered in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. [20:27] Her case remained unsolved for two decades, and the shocking truth about the killer stayed hidden [20:33] until very recently when new technology allowed investigators to do what had once been [20:37] impossible. Blood and Water, hosted by Stephanie Ramos. It's coming April 28th. [20:42] I'm Brad Milkey. Thanks for listening.