Down a Great Witness on Cross-Examination in Mock Trial

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Welcome to Mock Trial Masterclass, your guide to controlling the courtroom. I'm Luke and I want you to be a mock trial master. Let's talk about how you can make that happen. In this mock trial film session, we're going to be taking a look at something that is really, really challenging in mock trial, and that's being a witness on cross-examination. Because at the end of the day, the attorney is the one in control. They're usually asking very pointed questions that aren't going to give you as the witness a whole lot of room to wiggle around. But I have found a video of what I think is a really effective witness performance during cross-examination that maybe you'll be able to take some tips from, some strategies from, to apply to your own cross-examination performances as a witness. As we watch this video, we're going to be pausing and breaking it down to make sure you understand exactly what's going on and why I think this is such a good witness performance. And by the way, before we hop into the video, if there's any other topic or film session you'd like me to cover on this channel, please leave a comment. I'd love to know what you'd like to see more of on here. So for a little bit of context, we're dealing with a lawsuit here. This is a civil trial where one person is suing a refrigerator manufacturer because their refrigerator that they bought from this manufacturer exploded and burned down their trailer. You are hearing here from the plaintiff, the person who is sort of the victim here, talking about their trailer that burned down on cross-examination. So without further ado, let's hop in. [00:01:37] Speaker 2: Good evening, Mr. Steppenhoff. I'm going to ask you a few yes or no questions today. Now, you attended Big Orange University, correct? [00:01:43] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. That's right. [00:01:45] Speaker 2: And while there, you received a bachelor's of science degree in chemical engineering, didn't you? [00:01:49] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. That's right. [00:01:51] Speaker 2: You even had an emphasis on thermodynamics, correct? [00:01:55] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. See, that's about the transfer of energy from different forms into heat. It's mostly theoretical stuff. [00:02:01] Speaker 2: Exactly. Now let's talk about the day of the fire. On that day, besides from your animals, you were alone on the farm, correct? [00:02:09] Speaker 3: I reckon so. Yes, ma'am. [00:02:11] Speaker 2: There was, excuse me. Mr. Steppenhoff, you said earlier that you were riding your horse, Clyde, during, at the time of the fire? Yes, ma'am, along the back property line. [00:02:23] Speaker 1: Yes. So one thing I'll go ahead and point out is I think this witness is doing a really good job of just answering the questions that are being asked without needing to run a whole lot. You know, being able to explain your answers is part of a great witness performance on cross-examination, but sometimes it's just not necessary. All of these questions that are being asked here are very foundational. They're very simple. They're very basic. And there's no need for this witness to run around on them very much. And so he's not. He's just saying, you know, yeah, that's what happened. Yes, you're correct. And, and we're moving on to probably more important things. So just wanted to [00:02:55] Speaker 2: highlight that. I think that's really effective. Go along the back property line as far as you could [00:03:00] Speaker 3: get from the trailer. Well, I'd know if it was the furthest point, but about right. Yes, ma'am. [00:03:06] Speaker 2: Yes, Mr. Steppenhoff. Now, you were doing some work in your trailer before the fire, weren't you, Mr. [00:03:13] Speaker 3: Steppenhoff? Yes, ma'am. There was a bit of an issue with my bed, so I had to fix that. Exactly. [00:03:18] Speaker 2: There was an issue with your bed. The frame was bent, correct? Yes, ma'am. That's right. And this frame had become bent during one of your parties in your trailer. Is that correct? Uh, I reckon that might be the case. Yes, ma'am. You had had quite a lot of these parties in your trailer over the years, hadn't you, Mr. Steppenhoff? I object to the relevance of these parties. [00:03:39] Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with how the... We'll skip this objection. We're just concerned [00:03:43] Speaker 2: with the witness for now. Would you like me to re-ask the question? Yes, ma'am. That'd be nice. Uh, you had had quite a few of these parties over the years in your trailer. Is that right? Well, yes, ma'am. [00:03:53] Speaker 3: On the circuit, me and my friends had had some get-togethers over the years. And you would agree [00:03:58] Speaker 2: that you stated in your affidavit these parties got pretty wild, didn't they? Uh, from time to time, yes, ma'am. In fact, at one point, one of these parties resulted in a broken axle on your trailer, [00:04:08] Speaker 3: correct? Yes, ma'am, but lucky for me, uh, one of my friends was friends with a mechanic, and we were [00:04:14] Speaker 1: able to get that fixed up pretty quickly. Okay, I'm going to point that out because, again, like I said a second ago, uh, responding to the questions with explanations as a witness on cross is a key to being effective. And now we see him entering that territory. So he started the cross-examination, really giving the attorney everything she was asking for with just a simple yes. And now he's still giving her what she's asking for, right? He's not waffling on the answers. He's not really making her work that hard, but he's elaborating a little bit. So she asked about, um, the axle being broken on the trailer instead of just saying, yes, that was the case. He added a little detail, right? He had the friend who was a mechanic who came and helped him fix it, right? It's a relevant detail. I would imagine. I don't know this case very well, but it's a relevant detail. And it's adding to his performance in that he's not just giving a series of yeses and knows he's able to show a little bit of personality. He's getting just a little bit more face time with the jury. Again, at the end of the day on cross, the attorney's always going to be in charge, but there are things you can do as a witness to pull just a little bit of that spotlight, just a little bit of that control away from the attorney. And he's doing a great job of that here. [00:05:25] Speaker 2: I see. Now, Mr. Steppenhoof, on the day of the fire, your trailer was not insured, was it? Yes, ma'am. That's right. It was not insured because you had missed past payments, correct? [00:05:41] Speaker 3: Well, ma'am, I reckon I must have sent the check to the wrong place or something. [00:05:44] Speaker 2: But you did miss past insurance payments on your trailer? I missed one, yes, ma'am. And on the day of the fire, you were unaware that your trailer was uninsured, correct? Pardon me? On the day of the fire, you did not know that your trailer was uninsured. Is that right? [00:06:00] Speaker 1: What I really like there, just something really simple, a bit of a confusing question from the attorney. I'm not sure I entirely understood what she was asking. It's very clear that the witness didn't either. And so instead of answering anyway, and perhaps messing up because he didn't really understand the question, he just asked her to repeat the question. Very good, very normal. That's what you need to do if you're on the witness stand and you don't understand the question. Ask for them to repeat it. Ask for them to rephrase the question. Let them know, hey, I don't under, I don't think I understand the question. Perfectly okay to do, and it's usually a good thing to do if you genuinely [00:06:30] Speaker 3: don't know what they're asking. No, ma'am, I don't reckon I did. Now, Mr. Steppenhoof, had your trailer [00:06:37] Speaker 2: been insured like you thought that it was, you would have expected compensation for this fire, [00:06:42] Speaker 3: wouldn't you? Well, yes ma'am, that is the purpose of insurance. I love that. Just a little bit of [00:06:47] Speaker 1: a joke. It was kind of a bad question. It's a bit of an obvious question. You don't always want to go all the way with something like that. You kind of want to let the jury connect some of those dots for themselves. But asking a question, if it was insured and it burned down, you would have gotten paid. He handled that well. He was like, yeah, that's how insurance works. Really funny. Good stuff. [00:07:07] Speaker 2: Exactly. Now, besides your being behind on your insurance payments, you had also missed multiple bank loan payments for the same trailer, correct? No, ma'am, I don't reckon I'd missed any payments. [00:07:21] Speaker 3: I still had some money out, but I don't reckon I missed anything. Mr. Steppenhoof, you would agree [00:07:26] Speaker 2: that you were two payments behind in your bank payments for this loan. No, ma'am, I don't reckon so. [00:07:33] Speaker 1: Okay. We're about to see an impeachment here, and I have a feeling it's going to go really well for this witness, personally or honestly, because I have watched this before a long time ago, and I know it's going to go well for the witness. But I'm going to clue you in on what he did really, really well here, okay? He stuck to his guns on the question that was being asked. Instead of playing his hand, because what we're going to find out in a minute is he's got a really good explanation for this, but instead of playing that hand early, he simply told the attorney, "No, that is not correct." Now, if you've read my book, if you've seen my video on how to trap an attorney as a witness on cross examination, you know that's a trick I love, simply telling your attorney, "No, that's not correct," because what that's going to force her to do, what we're about to watch, is she's going to have to go through the ropes of an impeachment, even though he knows he's right, even though he's planned this in advance, by simply saying, "No, that's not correct," as opposed to, "No, and here are the 10 reasons why," he's forcing her to scramble versus him having to scramble. Really, really effective. If the answer is no to a question your attorney asks you on cross-examination, just say no and stop talking and force them to do what we're about to see this poor girl have to do. I do feel bad. [00:08:45] Speaker 2: You prepared a sworn affidavit, correct, Mr. Steffenhoff? A what? A sworn affidavit, [00:08:49] Speaker 3: you prepared a sworn affidavit, correct? Uh, if you mean the statement I gave, yes, [00:08:53] Speaker 2: ma'am. And when you wrote this statement, you swore to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I reckon so, yes, ma'am. Permission to approach the witness? Really clunky impeachment, [00:09:02] Speaker 1: by the way, that's not how you do an impeachment. If you want to know how to do an impeachment, read my book, go watch my video on how to do an impeachment. That was not yet. [00:09:08] Speaker 2: What's that, David? Now, let's see here. [00:09:19] Speaker 1: Oh, you can just tell that she's off balance because of this, like, awkward humming. Like, I can't imagine standing in front of the witness and being like, "Oh, I just feel so bad for her because I know how this feels. I've been there, and it's just the worst." And I feel like she knows she's about to lose. Uh, and unfortunately for her, she is. Would you please read along with me [00:09:39] Speaker 2: silently as I read aloud to the court? You would agree that on the second, uh, it'll be just here. You would agree on the last paragraph of this page, it says, "I knew next that I had to call Big Orange Bank to let them know about the fire and find out whether I still had to pay the balance of the loan. I got more bad news when they told me I still owed $100,000 on the trailer and that I was two payments behind." You would agree that it says that in your sworn affidavit? Well, yes, ma'am, [00:10:04] Speaker 3: that's what the bank told me, but I reckon they had the wrong account or something. [00:10:08] Speaker 1: I was doing just fine on my payments. Okay, so there's so much to point out here that is just incredible about this. The first thing I'll say is this is a prime example of a witness knowing their affidavit inside and out. He knew he was going to get asked this question. He knew what he was going to do with this question, and he knew his affidavit or his witness statement, whatever you want to call it well enough to, when the question got asked, being able to take it in the direction he took it. Right? The witness statement said something about the bank saying he was behind on payments, but in the witness statement, my guess is that this witness never actually admitted to being behind on the payments. He just said the bank told him that. So he's going with the story that the bank was mistaken. Now, whatever in the realm of this case that has to do with, I'm not sure, but I'll tell you this. Who do you think is winning right now in this cross-examination? Who do you believe more? Who do you think is pulling the more weight? Who do you think has more control in the courtroom? And it's that witness, not the attorney. Because the poor attorney, I feel so bad for her. She's walking around humming and just is not in control. But this witness is, right? Like I said at the beginning of this video, there are things you can do as a witness on cross to get some control. One of them is knowing your part inside and out. And another one is sticking to your guns, right? We talked about he said, no, that is not correct. He forced her to go through that uncomfortable process. And then when she got to the end of it, he hit her with the power move because he knew his statement inside and out. Just great stuff all the way around. When you know your statement inside and out, I say it over and over and over and over and over again. But when you get to that point as a witness where you have that good of a command of your statement, things like this start to happen. [00:11:47] Speaker 2: Mr. Stepenhoof, you would agree that the bank then told you that if you missed one more payment, they were going to take legal action against you, correct? [00:11:55] Speaker 3: Well, yes, ma'am. But like I said, I reckon they had the wrong account up. I was doing just fine. [00:12:00] Speaker 2: Okay, Mr. Stepenhoof. Now, you said you bought your trailer in 2011, correct? [00:12:12] Speaker 3: Mr. Yes, ma'am. In August. [00:12:14] Speaker 2: And throughout 2011, you used your trailer regularly, didn't you? [00:12:18] Speaker 3: Mr. Well, yes, ma'am. You see, the trailer was where I stayed whenever I was on the circuit, which was a good bit of the year. [00:12:24] Speaker 2: Exactly. You loved that trailer. You kept up with all the payments in 2011, didn't you, Mr. Stepenhoof? [00:12:31] Speaker 3: Mr. And the years following, yes, ma'am. [00:12:33] Speaker 2: And in 2011, there were never any fires in the trailer, were there? [00:12:38] Speaker 3: Mr. No, ma'am. I don't reckon so. [00:12:40] Speaker 2: And Mr. Stepenhoof, in 2012, you continued to keep up with your payments, and you continued regular use of your trailer, is that correct? [00:12:46] Speaker 3: Mr. Yes, ma'am. [00:12:47] Speaker 2: And again in 2012, you never had any issues with your trailer. No fires, anything. Is that correct? [00:12:54] Speaker 3: Mr. Well, no, ma'am. [00:12:55] Speaker 2: And again in 2013, you were still caught up on the trailers, weren't you? I mean, excuse me, you were still caught up on the payments, weren't you? [00:13:02] Speaker 3: Mr. Yes, ma'am. [00:13:03] Speaker 2: And you were still using your trailer regularly, weren't you? [00:13:06] Speaker 3: Mr. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Correct. [00:13:07] Speaker 2: And in 2013, there were still no fires in your trailer, were there? [00:13:10] Speaker 3: Mr. No, ma'am. There was only ever just the one. [00:13:13] Speaker 2: And in 2014, after the axle had broken, your trailer had suffered significant damage, and you were behind in multiple payments, that's when your trailer caught on fire, correct? [00:13:24] Speaker 3: Mr. Well, ma'am, like I said, we got the axle fixed pretty quickly, and I wasn't behind on any payments. [00:13:29] Speaker 2: Mr. Stepenhoof, your trailer had suffered significant damage, hadn't it? [00:13:34] Speaker 3: Mr. Well, it was still completely functional. If that's what you're asking. [00:13:39] Speaker 2: That is not what I'm asking, Mr. Stepenhoof. Please answer me, yes or no. Your trailer had suffered significant damage. [00:13:44] Speaker 3: Mr. You're talking about the axle? [00:13:46] Speaker 2: Yes, I'm talking about your trailer. [00:13:47] Speaker 3: Mr. Are you talking about the axle or the trailer in general? [00:13:52] Speaker 2: The axle is a part of the trailer. [00:13:53] Speaker 3: Mr. The trailer in general was just fine, ma'am. I kept it in pretty tat shape. [00:13:59] Speaker 2: Mr. But you would agree that earlier that year, the axle did break on your trailer, yes or no? [00:14:03] Speaker 3: Mr. Well, yes ma'am, but like I said, through a friend of a friend. [00:14:07] Speaker 2: Mr. There's definitely not a place to answer the question, yes or no. Mr. Yes ma'am, the trailer broke. Mr. Thank you. [00:14:11] Speaker 1: Mr. Okay, I don't know that I love the judge jumping in there and kind of saving the day for this attorney, because I don't know that the witness was really doing anything wrong. He was sort of being responsive. I don't know. I tend to coach or I always coach that you need to start your answers as a witness with either a yes or a no and we could get into the reasons of that later, but he's not doing that. And so, yeah, he probably did leave himself open to being corrected like this by the judge, but also he was also kind of balking at her question. He kept saying, you know, are you asking about the trailer or the axle? He was trying to force her to get more specific and she wasn't. And she wasn't getting more specific and the judge kind of jumped in to save the day. So I don't really know how I feel about that exchange. Just an important point to keep in mind as a witness on cross, start your answers with yes or no before you hop into your explanation. You kind of avoid these situations. If you do that, it makes everything cleaner. [00:15:11] Speaker 2: And it was in that year that your trailer finally caught on fire, correct? [00:15:16] Speaker 3: Uh, yes ma'am. [00:15:19] Speaker 2: And Mr. Sevenhoff, on the day of the fire, when you saw the black smoke and you were terrified, you did not call the fire department, did you? [00:15:28] Speaker 3: Well, no ma'am. When I got to the trailer, I seen that my neighbor had already called them. [00:15:33] Speaker 2: But, so yes or no, you never called the fire department or attempted- [00:15:38] Speaker 1: He said no. He started the answer with no. Why are we asking it again? [00:15:41] Speaker 2: Anything about the fire, did you? [00:15:43] Speaker 1: No ma'am, they'd already been called. [00:15:45] Speaker 2: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honor. [00:15:47] Speaker 1: I'll just ask you this question as we wrap up. Who won? Pretty obvious, huh? Right, the witness was in control for pretty much that entire cross-examination. And the way that he did it was sticking to his guns, right? Not letting her wiggle around on him, but him kind of forcing the direction that she was going and also knowing his witness statement inside and out. I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. That is the key to success as a witness on direct examination or cross-examination. This is a great witness performance to model your own after on cross-examination. You'll have to do it exactly like he did it, right? This probably suited his personal style and his personality more than it may suit yours. And that's okay. Just find what works for you. But there's plenty of tips you can take away from watching this cross-examination. If you want to learn more about being a witness on cross-examination, you can pick up a copy of my book, Mock Trial Masterclass, where we dive into really every element of mock trial. But specifically, we do hop into being a great witness on cross-examination. And I even give you a list of things you can do as a witness to make life difficult for your attorney, just like this guy did right here. So if you want to pick up a copy, you can click the link in the description on YouTube or in the show notes on podcast platforms. I hope this was helpful for you. If it was, let me know in the comments. And I can't wait to hear about how your performance as a witness on cross-examination rises to the level of a mock trial master. [00:17:11] Speaker ?: Thank you.