All Access with Linsey Davis: Justice Neil Gorsuch

[0:07] Hi, everyone. Welcome to All Access. I'm Lindsay Davis. Serving on the highest court in the land, [0:13] Neil Gorsuch holds one of the most consequential seats in American life, [0:16] where words are weighed and decisions can echo for generations. [0:20] I, Neil M. Gorsuch, do solemnly swear. [0:23] The Colorado native was appointed to the bench in 2017 by Donald Trump at a moment when the court [0:28] and country stood at a crossroads. Often described as a conservative voice, he might just as accurately [0:34] be called a steward of language, a textualist, an originalist, someone who returns again and again [0:40] to the precise words of the law and the Constitution. And now that reverence for language finds a new [0:45] form, the husband and father of two is also an author, co-writing a children's book, Heroes of [0:51] 1776, an invitation to look back to the moment when a fraught and fragile idea became a nation, [0:57] a story of voices raised for independence, of a declaration carefully drafted and of hard-fought [1:03] sacrifice by men and women in pursuit of freedom. A timely story brought to life in words and [1:09] illustrations as America approaches its 250th birthday. And tonight we sit down with the [1:15] justice and author to ask why looking back might just help us find a way forward. You've been on [1:21] the court now nearly a decade. Why'd you decide to write this book and why now? We're coming up on [1:27] our 250th anniversary, the semi-quincentennial. What a mouthful. But what does that mean? It means [1:34] halfway to 500. We're on a journey. And it struck me that we're going to be doing a lot of celebrating. [1:42] There are going to be fireworks. There are going to be parades. Maybe it's a time for reflection too on [1:48] our nation's founding ideals. You know we're not a nation that shares a common heritage or a common [1:55] religion. We're a creedal nation. We believe in certain ideas and they're in the Declaration of [2:00] Independence. Maybe reflect on those. Maybe reflect too on the courage and the humanity of the people who [2:08] brought it about and the courage it takes to defend those ideals in every generation. [2:13] Fundamentally this book is about the founding fathers. But you also are careful to highlight some of the [2:19] female patriots which often don't get a lot of recognition. Among them M.K. Goddard. Tell us her story. [2:27] Isn't that a great story? Yes. And the significance. [2:29] Yeah. So yes, it is primarily around the signers. But you have to realize they couldn't have done what [2:36] they did alone. I mean it was an act of treason. It was dangerous for them. But it was dangerous for [2:41] everybody who stood beside them. And only about 40 percent of colonists wanted independence. Another [2:49] 30 percent were loyalists. It divided the Franklin family. We can maybe talk about that. And then the [2:57] rest were undecided. And so we posed this question to the children. How would you, what would you [3:03] have done? Would you have been brave enough to stand up? And M.K. Goddard was one. Congress was in [3:10] Baltimore having left Philadelphia because the British were descending upon it. And they had just printed the [3:18] the Declaration of Independence with the names on it. And they wanted to disseminate it through the [3:23] colonies as fast as they could. Why? Because they wanted to rally people to the cause because not [3:28] everybody was convinced. And they turned to a local patriot publisher, M.K. Goddard, published a [3:34] patriot newspaper. At the bottom of the newspaper would always print the name printed by M.K. Goddard. But when it [3:41] came to the Declaration, M.K. Goddard did something different. Printed by Mary Catherine Goddard, [3:48] revealing that she, understandably using her initials in commercial publications, but she [3:55] was standing up for the Declaration too and marking her as a traitor as well. [4:00] Which was very dangerous. Extraordinarily dangerous. Extraordinarily dangerous. This is an act of treason. [4:06] People stood to be hung. And they understood that. And the signers suffered. The whole country [4:13] suffered. But maybe a third of all the signers' homes were destroyed during the course of the [4:18] Revolution. Many of them were captured and imprisoned. Their spouses, their wives, their [4:23] children were captured and imprisoned. Most of them gave their fortunes to the cause, literally [4:29] buying shoes because the Continental Army didn't have shoes. Washington was constantly complaining [4:34] about the lack of shoes. He said you could trace the tracks of the men's march to Valley Forge [4:40] by the blood and the snow with their wrapped and unwrapped feet. [4:44] A lot of what we find in these pages are the framers' founding ideals. What do you see today [4:52] as one of the greatest threats to those ideals? [4:55] Oh, these ideals are always under threat. They were under threat from the day they were announced. The notion in 1776 that all [5:03] are equal? Well, nobody believed that in Europe, right? There were kings, there were serfs. [5:10] The idea that people could rule themselves wisely and well, that had never worked in human history. [5:16] That we have inalienable rights? That was considered crazy. Those were radical, radical ideas. And we're still on our way to achieving them. [5:25] But it's kind of like our nation's report card. We can look to them. So, in the Civil War, and we talk about this in the book, [5:34] Lincoln could appeal to the nation to end slavery because of the Declaration. [5:39] Right. He could say, we need to come back to the Declaration. The women's suffrage movement could appeal to the Declaration and say, [5:46] yeah, all men are equal. All men and women are equal. Right? [5:50] Martin Luther King could stand in front of Lincoln's Memorial down the Mall here in 1963 and say, [5:55] that's a promissory note that must be kept. And the truth is those ideas are not inevitable. They were not inevitable then. [6:04] We almost didn't declare independence. We tell the story about the debate that led up to it. [6:08] Almost didn't go through. Right? None of this is inevitable. And it won't, and it isn't inevitable that it will survive. [6:16] America's biggest enemy is itself, I believe. We have to recommit in every generation. [6:24] We have to relearn those ideas and the history, complex as it is, generation after generation, [6:31] if we're going to carry those ideas forward. [6:33] You mentioned the word debate, and I'd love you to talk about July 2nd in particular, [6:39] when it became clear that all of the colonies were unanimously going to support independence. [6:44] And you highlight a letter that John Adams wrote to his wife Abigail, who says about that day, [6:51] that the greatest question was decided, whichever was debated in America, [6:56] and a greater perhaps never was or will be decided among men. [6:59] Do you feel that that still holds today? Do you think that there is a debate that rises to that level? [7:05] Well, first of all, I can't agree with Adams entirely. He said July 2nd would be remembered. [7:10] He was wrong about that. That's when they voted for the declaration. [7:16] But it's July 4th when the declaration itself gets approved that is remembered. [7:21] So Adams was known for a little bit of hyperbole from time to time. [7:26] And boy, did he love Abigail. They were just a tremendous united couple. [7:32] He failed her. You know, she wrote, remember the women when he was working on this. [7:38] And he failed her on that. [7:41] Those three ideas, that we're all equal, that we all have inalienable rights, [7:45] that we have the right to rule ourselves, I think those are three perfect ideas. [7:49] And they are something that speak to every human soul. [7:52] And they exclude no one. They're totally inclusive. [7:56] And yes, I think those ideals are perfect. [8:00] In the book, you also recount a particular letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to John Adams. [8:07] You talk about how they had actually had a disagreement and stopped speaking for about a decade. [8:13] But in the waning days of their life, they kind of pick up the friendship again. [8:18] And at one point, he writes, what was most valuable to man was his right to self-governance. [8:24] Meaning, of course, as it's written in the Declaration of Independence, [8:27] the government exists to serve the people, not the other way around. [8:30] You've also talked publicly about democracies potentially falling apart from the inside. [8:37] You've also said that you need to tend to this garden of democracy. [8:41] How does one tend to it? [8:43] Well, I think you have to learn the history, right? [8:45] You need to know where all these ideas came from. [8:48] And I think you're going to find enormous inspiration in the people and the pages of our history. [8:52] I mean, people like M.K. Goddard are inspirational. [8:56] Emily Geiger was an 18-year-old spy. [8:58] I think she's just incredible, right? [9:01] So there are just so many of those stories that young people can find some connection to [9:06] and maybe inspiration to play their own part in ensuring the country's future. [9:12] But, yes, our democracy depends on people who know their history, who care for those ideas, [9:18] and are willing to be brave enough to stand up to carry them forward. [9:21] During the end of the book, you write a personal note where you say, [9:25] the truth is the work is never done and the torch passes to each new generation to defend the Declaration's ideals [9:31] and help make our nation truer to them still. [9:34] What can you say to younger generations that you feel can help them to stay truer to those founding principles? [9:42] Well, I think you need, as we just discussed, to really learn the history, where they came from, [9:47] the struggles that have been taking place to realize those ideals more and more. [9:55] You can't change things if you don't know why they are the way they are. [10:00] So start there. Prepare yourself. [10:02] Jefferson said that if we expected the nation to be ignorant and free, [10:10] we wish for something that never was in the history of the world and never will be. [10:15] Washington, when he was leaving office, wanted to create a national university to teach people [10:21] how to run a Republican form of government, how to be good stewards of the Constitution and the Declaration. [10:28] And I'd say prepare yourself. [10:30] Don't be one of those kids who doesn't know his history or civics. [10:35] Really prepare yourself, because it's a big job ahead of you. [10:38] And somebody has to run the zoo. Somebody has to run the zoo. Somebody is going to run the zoo. [10:45] So why not you? And if you're going to do it, why not be really prepared? [10:50] For those who see this book potentially as a rallying cry for courage to defend our founding ideals, [10:58] what gives you hope about America's future and what keeps you up at night? [11:03] Well, what keeps me up at night is disagreements that we have and our sometimes incapacity to realize the humanity of the people we disagree with. [11:15] When I disagree with my colleagues, as we do from time, you give us the 70 hardest cases in the nation, [11:24] we're going to disagree on some of them. [11:26] But I never question that the person sitting across from me loves this country every bit as much as I do, [11:31] that they love the Constitution and the Declaration and that they're doing their level best to honor their oath to them. [11:37] Never, never. So I worry about that. [11:43] What gives me hope? Goodness. [11:47] When you go through these stories and you see how Jefferson and Adam squabbled, for example, [11:54] they were best of friends during the Declaration. [11:57] They argued over who should do the drafting and they kept trying to defer to one another. [12:01] There's a wonderful anecdote there where, you know, Adam says to Jefferson, you should write it. [12:06] And Jefferson says, no, no, you should write it. [12:09] And Adam says, no, no, no, no, there are three reasons why you should write it. [12:12] One, I am obnoxious, which might have been true. [12:18] And two, you're a Virginian. [12:20] And a Virginian should be seen to be the head of this thing because it was the most populous colony at the time and the wealthiest. [12:27] And three, you write ten times better than I do. [12:30] And so that's why Jefferson. [12:31] So you see that friendship and then you see they completely fall apart over much of their professional career. [12:37] They differ vigorously, just about everything. [12:41] And they threw insults at one, and then they became friends at the end of their life again. [12:46] A rich correspondence, like 140, 150 letters over the end of their life, just beautiful. [12:52] Jefferson writing to Adams after the death of Abigail to console him is one of the most beautiful condolences you'll ever read. [13:00] And so what makes, gives me hope is knowing that as tough as our times might seem, they're not a patch on what's come before. [13:13] Good perspective. [13:14] Yeah. [13:15] You mentioned earlier, and you talk about a great deal in the book, how nearly one-third of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, they suffered. [13:25] They had their homes damaged or destroyed. [13:28] They died. [13:29] They sacrificed. [13:31] All in pursuit of their freedom. [13:34] Fast forward 250 years. [13:36] And I'm not asking you about the event itself, but of course recently there was just what appeared to be an attempted assassination, but at the celebration of freedom of the press. [13:47] And I'm curious just in general what you think, what you make of this current climate that is not just about politics, but has extended even toward potential violence to the court. [13:58] Yeah. [14:00] Well, I'm heartbroken by these events, and there have been too many of them. [14:06] And I know you were there that night, and my heart goes out to you. [14:09] Thank you. [14:10] We have to learn how to talk to one another. [14:13] We just have to learn how to talk to one another. [14:17] And we have to remember the Adams and Jefferson at the end of their life. [14:22] The beginning and the end. [14:25] It can happen. [14:26] We can talk to one another. [14:27] And when you realize, as Jefferson and Adams did, that though they disagreed about everything, [14:33] one wanted a strong central government, the other a weak. [14:36] They couldn't have differed more on all the major issues of the day. [14:40] War and peace. [14:41] Free speech they disagreed on. [14:44] Item after item. [14:47] But as they realized at the beginning and the end of their life, more united them than separated them. [14:53] They shared those three big ideas in the Declaration. [14:57] That's what really mattered, they realized. [15:00] And that was their real legacy. [15:01] Still ahead, in a moment when the nation feels deeply divided, [15:06] what does it mean to pursue a more perfect union from the bench, [15:09] when the decisions themselves can spark backlash? [15:12] Our conversation continues with Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch. [15:16] Given the climate in March, Chief Justice Roberts said on the record [15:21] that the personal attacks against judges and justices is dangerous. [15:25] It must stop. [15:26] Do you agree? [15:40] What strikes me is just your excitement and your energy as you're telling these stories. [15:45] There was a recent survey that found nearly 80% of civics teachers self-censor in class because they're concerned about controversy and pushback. [15:55] What advice would you give to explain how important it is to still teach civics lessons like these? [16:02] So, first of all, you put your finger on an even bigger problem. [16:07] They aren't teaching it at all. [16:09] Surveys I've read suggest that eighth graders, only about 13% are proficient grade level in U.S. history. [16:16] Only about 22% of kids in eighth grade are proficient in civics. [16:22] And it's not like it gets better when you get older. [16:25] Only six in ten Americans can pass the citizenship test my wife took. [16:30] And I can tell you it's not hard. [16:32] You raise an important question. [16:35] History's complicated. [16:37] There are difficult things in this book. [16:39] There are difficult things in our history. [16:42] We need to be able to teach it all and to talk about it all. [16:47] And that's the only way forward because we are a creedal nation, right? [16:50] Those three ideas and the declaration, those three big ideas, that each of us is equal, [16:55] that we all have inalienable rights given to us by God, not from government, [17:02] and that we have the right to rule ourselves. [17:04] Those are three ideas that speak to every human heart. [17:07] And they have the power to unite us. [17:10] And when we're on our journey 250 years in, are we at our destination? [17:14] No. [17:15] It's always to form a more perfect union. [17:17] But we have guideposts. [17:19] We have a report card. [17:20] We can ask ourselves, how are we doing? [17:22] How do you view yourself as the 113th Supreme Court justice in this pursuit and struggle [17:32] for a more perfect union? [17:33] Do you see your position as a courageous stand for liberty? [17:37] I think each of us has a role to play. [17:39] You have a role to play. [17:41] Everyone in this room has a role to play. [17:43] We're all equal. [17:44] We all have rights. [17:45] And we have the right to rule ourselves. [17:47] Okay, now what does a judge do in that? [17:49] Well, that's talked about in the Declaration, too. [17:53] One of the colonists' complaints about Britain was that the judges weren't independent. [17:59] And they wanted independent judges. [18:01] And they wanted juries of their peers. [18:03] Their peers. [18:04] Not some far away off group of people in Britain to decide their cases. [18:09] And so my role's important, but it's limited. [18:13] Right? [18:14] My job's not to make law. [18:16] Right? [18:17] You don't want nine old people making all the rules you live by. [18:20] That would be crazy. [18:21] That's not self-rule. [18:22] But you might want nine old people to apply the law independently, with life tenure, so [18:29] they don't care what anybody thinks. [18:31] And that's exactly what the Declaration hoped for us. [18:34] So I have a very small role to play. [18:37] I'm just one of nine. [18:38] I can't do anything by myself. [18:40] Right? [18:41] I mean, you have to have five to decide where to go to lunch. [18:44] And good luck getting five of you to agree where to go to lunch. [18:49] Given the climate in March, Chief Justice Roberts said on the record that the personal attacks [18:56] against judges and justices is dangerous. [18:58] It must stop. [18:59] Judges around the country work very hard to get it right. [19:04] And if they don't, their opinions are subject to criticism. [19:09] But personally directed hostility is dangerous. [19:17] And it's got to stop. [19:18] Do you agree? [19:19] I completely agree with what the Chief said. [19:23] I'd also say, you know, part of the job of the judge is to accept criticism, right? [19:28] Everybody's got a right to free speech. [19:30] You know, Sam Adams and John Hancock were pretty rabble-rousing types up there in Massachusetts. [19:38] Really, all of the signers were, okay? [19:40] Rabble-rousers. [19:41] And it's a raucous thing, a democracy. [19:43] And that's good. [19:44] That's great. [19:45] And that is part of our story. [19:49] But part of our story, too, is realizing, again, that the person sitting across from [19:53] you probably loves his country every bit as much as you do. [19:59] But given that environment, I'm curious, and I'm not asking about any political case or politics, [20:07] but when you have the President of the United States who singles you out or another judge [20:11] that he has appointed to the Supreme Court and says, oh, they're bad for our country, they [20:15] sicken me, they're embarrassments to their family. [20:17] How do you react to that just as a human? [20:20] Yeah. [20:21] Just as an American? [20:22] Well, I think, I come back and think about these ideas. [20:25] One of which in the Declaration was, hey, we want independent judges. [20:29] People who are fearless and able to apply the law without respect to persons, as our [20:34] judicial oath says, right? [20:36] That's why we're given life tenure. [20:39] And it's quite an honor. [20:40] It's a humbling privilege to be able to serve in this capacity. [20:44] And I'm just one link in a long chain. [20:48] Lastly, both of us have written children's books before. [20:51] And you mentioned a C.S. Lewis quote that I think is very applicable to this book. [20:56] Explain that. [20:57] Well, your books are beautiful, too. [20:58] Oh, thank you. [20:59] I had a chance to read them this last week. [21:02] C.S. Lewis said something like, a good children's book isn't for children alone. [21:09] And I do hope that parents and children will learn something together through these pages. [21:15] And learn a little bit about our history. [21:19] About the courage and sacrifice of those who came before us. [21:22] And about the wonderful inheritance we have. [21:24] Imperfect as our country is. [21:26] I hope they learn that they share something pretty unique in human history. [21:30] I can tell you, I enjoyed the book. [21:32] A lot I didn't know. [21:34] And enjoyed the anecdotes, too. [21:36] Thank you. [21:37] Justice Gorsuch, we thank you so much. [21:39] Yeah. [21:40] Our thanks to Justice Gorsuch for that conversation. [21:42] You can pick up Heroes of 1776 wherever you purchase your books. [21:46] That is all access. [21:48] I'm Lindsay Davis. [21:49] Thanks so much for watching.