Ali Revival Act Senate Hearing Fallout, Alex Pereira's GOAT Potential, More — The Craic — 4/24/26

[2:04] The crack is back, ladies and gentlemen, and my God, we nearly thought we weren't going [2:08] to make it here today with technical updates to laptops and what have you, but we're here. [2:15] Shout out, Andy. [2:16] She got it all done. [2:17] We have a working computer. [2:19] I'm from a different angle slightly today because I'm using a different computer, and [2:22] you can see I've got a glow to me today. [2:24] That's because I got sunburned while I was walking my dog. [2:26] That is not important, though, because this is a combat sports show, and if you didn't [2:31] know, there was a big Senate hearing on Wednesday. [2:33] We had Nico Ali Walsh. [2:37] We had Oscar De La Hoya. [2:38] We had Nick Khan, Ted Cruz, everybody weighing in on the Ali Reform Act. [2:46] Now, you know that I have two of the greatest journalists in the history of combat sports [2:51] on this show, but when I suggested adding someone about a bit more expertise to this conversation, [2:58] well, the boys bit my hand off because it is a man that has been on this show before. [3:03] You might know him from those episodes. [3:05] You might know him from the Hey, Not the Face sub stack, which is absolutely amazing. [3:10] He is an authority on all things combat sports litigation, and he'll be joining us all today. [3:16] Let's bring in the four-pack. [3:17] It is Chuck Mendenhall, Ben Foulkes, and John S. Nash. [3:21] John S. Nash. [3:22] My God. [3:23] Welcome, sir. [3:24] We are very, very happy to have you here. [3:27] Sorry for the reclining pose. [3:28] I got, if you can see, I don't even know if you can see, I got my cat on my lap, right? [3:33] So if my hands are doing this, this is really unfortunate that my camera can't tilt even lower [3:38] because right now this is just not going to look good the whole show, me doing that. [3:42] So let's just let you know. [3:44] I just want the audience to know that is my cat. [3:47] My cat is actually right there. [3:48] Look at this amazing setup, John. [3:50] He looks so relaxed. [3:51] I know. [3:52] He's got the mic that comes in, like he's Howard Stern or something. [3:56] He's leaning back there. [3:57] There's a man holding that mic. [3:58] They're like holding the mic. [3:59] Yeah, there it is. [4:00] I got the boom mic operator. [4:02] I got another one above me. [4:04] Putting a cat on his lap like he's a Bond villain. [4:06] It's incredible. [4:07] I was thinking more of Don Corleone, but it's a little pathetic over here to be Don. [4:11] But still, I just saw your audience on the video would like to know that I am not stroking myself. [4:16] There is a cat right here. [4:18] You're on the right show for it. [4:19] Yeah. [4:20] It's allowed if you need to, you know, whatever you need to do, really. [4:24] First, I'm hearing this. [4:26] John, we are so happy to have you here because we need to get onto this Senate hearing. [4:33] A lot of people have come away from this and the discussion I'm seeing and the discourse kind of vibes with a lot what you've been saying before, where this is almost a foregone conclusion at this point. [4:44] I mean, a lot of people feel like this is just a matter of time. [4:47] Tell me what your key takeaways were from Wednesday's hearing. [4:50] Well, I think some people think it's more of a foregone conclusion than me. [4:55] I've always said the odds are it's very likely that this gets passed and signed into legislation, that the bills passed, both chambers goes to Donald Trump's desk. [5:04] I think that's very likely, but I don't think it's 100% guaranteed, like some people seem to say, only because if you pay attention to the news, there's a lot of shit that's going on. [5:15] And like this bill itself is really late. [5:19] They had plans for it to be signed and in place by the beginning of this year when they rolled out Zufa Boxing. [5:24] But because of the shutdown last fall, you know, the original hearing was delayed like five, six weeks. [5:30] And so they ran into a lot of problems. [5:33] You know, you've got a war in Iran. [5:34] You've got the Epstein file still floating out there. [5:37] You've got members of the House dropping out repeatedly. [5:40] It's possible still that something could happen. [5:43] But based on the performance, based on how it went yesterday, you have to say that for Zufa, they have to be feeling very confident that this will eventually, I shouldn't say eventually, very rapidly get to a vote in the Senate and likely pass. [6:00] Because as people in Congress have told me, I've spoken, just disclosure, I've spoken to members of the committees, their staff. [6:06] The one thing they've noted is there is not as large of organized resistance as there are typically for bills. [6:16] Usually you have any sort of labor bill, the unions show up and their connections show up or an association or someone shows up to counter it. [6:24] And here, because it's boxing, it's very disorganized, very hodgepodge. [6:28] And the people that are trying to resist it, you know, God bless them, are a very small group of people. [6:32] Yeah, it's interesting you say that. [6:36] And I watched Chuck's colleague, Luke Thomas, speak about this from Morning Combat today, where he was discussing Senators Cruz and Rosen and, you know, them kind of having been, they've been endorsed by TKO Holdings over the years, which might make it feel a bit incestuous. [6:54] But to speak about the lack of organization within boxing, they did have some notable detractors of this reform act, one of which was Muhammad Ali's grandson. [7:05] And just to give people a flavor of what he said, I believe we have a synopsis of comments he made in his opening five minutes here. [7:14] Fighters are labeled independent contractors. [7:16] As a result, people say fighters will have options, that we can just go elsewhere. [7:22] But when the same company controls who you fight, how you're promoted, and whether fans ever see you, it's not much of a choice. [7:31] When one system controls access, choice becomes theoretical, not real. [7:37] The Ali Act was built on a simple principle. [7:40] The people controlling fighters should not also control the entire marketplace those fighters depend on. [7:46] That separation exists to prevent conflicts of interest and exploitation. [7:53] The new Muhammad Ali Boxing Revival Act would undermine that principle. [7:57] By allowing one entity to operate across promotion, management, and matchmaking, it removes independence. [8:06] When that happens, you fight who you're told to fight, or you don't fight at all. [8:12] At that point, real choice disappears, and so does negotiation. [8:16] This type of centralized system is already seen in mixed martial arts, particularly in the UFC, [8:21] where a single organization controls promotion, matchmaking, and fighter contracts. [8:27] In that model, fighters typically receive under 20% of the revenue, compared to boxing, where fighters can earn up to 80%. [8:37] The newly proposed Revival Act pushes that centralized model onto boxing, behind the claim that boxing is broken. [8:45] If it were, UFC champions, at the height of their careers, would not be actively targeting boxing fights because of the fair pay. [8:57] That movement is rarely seen in reverse due to the UFC's centralized pay structure. [9:04] Boxing has never been perfect, but one of its strengths has always been competition. [9:10] Multiple promoters competing for fighters creates leverage and fair market value. [9:14] When that competition is consolidated to one system, leverage disappears. [9:19] Protection should be strengthened, especially around health and safety, but not used as justification to restructure the sport in a way that removes power from fighters. [9:29] If this bill is passed in its current form, it should not have my grandfather's name on it, as it would betray the principles that his act was created to protect. [9:38] He fought for dignity outside the ring. [9:42] This is about dignity inside it. [9:43] Fighters should not have to choose between their careers and their rights. [9:48] That's Nico Ali Walsh, who I thought really conducted himself really, really well at the hearing yesterday. [9:57] And I've heard a lot of complaints about Oscar De La Hoya. [10:00] I was listening to Insider Boxing earlier, speaking about his involvement yesterday. [10:05] And maybe we can speak about that later. [10:06] But I guess, John, the question for me is, you've kind of mentioned this lack of unity among the boxing people, creating just a wall against this Reform Act. [10:18] And as we know, there are people within the boxing world that have endorsed it, too. [10:22] Is this more of a conversation, do you believe, for the MMA community rather than the boxing community right now? [10:29] Well, I mean, the conversation that there's a lack of unity, that part? [10:33] No, sorry, the conversation about the Reform Act and the boxing kind of taking into this UFC model, so to speak. [10:41] Yeah, yeah. [10:42] I mean, it is. [10:42] No, I mean, the thing is that it is very related. [10:46] People try to always make this argument that boxing and MMA are completely separate sports, completely different. [10:52] But their markets are very similar. [10:55] Their structures are technically very similar. [10:57] It's two guys fighting in a ring or a cage, presented for an audience, you know, where you sell tickets, you broadcast it, you have sponsorship, and they're fighting eventually to win a championship. [11:06] The difference is, is what we permit in one sport and what we don't permit in the other. [11:11] So, for MMA, because we permit them to operate like pro wrestling, they're allowed to have their own titles. [11:17] They're allowed to thus say that, just fight for this title, you have to be signed to our promotional entity exclusively, where that doesn't work in boxing because the titles are separate from the promoters. [11:28] And so, fighters who are competing to get these titles, promoters in turn are competing for the fighters, where the reverse, as Carlos Newton will say, happens in MMA, where the fighters are competing to get the promoter that will give them access to the title. [11:44] And so, it's a completely different structure. [11:46] So, it's just the flip side of the same coin of where the problems are. [11:51] Now, I thought Ollie Walsh did an amazing job there, because he kind of laid it out perfectly in his opening statement, and he was the highlight for those that are opposing the bill. [12:01] And it was disappointing that members of Senate maybe didn't pick up on what he said and ask questions, but I guess that goes hand in hand with only being a select few members of the Senate there. [12:09] And, you know, I don't think Ted Cruz, as much as he came across as fair and balanced, he did, you know, it looked like he threw a softball right over the middle of the plate for Nick Khan at one point. [12:23] The middleweight situation? [12:25] Yeah, the middleweight. [12:26] Who is the middleweight champion? [12:27] Yeah, you know, it's amazing that Nick Khan knew all the middleweights, because no one does, even fans of boxing. [12:33] And I think people spotted it and had a list on his table right there when he did it. [12:37] And so, and then you have Jackie Rosen, who's from Nevada, who, you know, all things said, if you're in Nevada, TKO is a massive enterprise there, you are not going to go against him. [12:47] But I thought his explanation was great, and it kind of boils down to what the problem is. [12:51] And, you know, it's pretty simple. [12:54] The OLLI Act was put in place for multiple reasons, but namely, to protect Boxer's financial interest. [13:01] And the way they did that is we want to create competition. [13:04] Well, competition is the number one way to raise athletes' pay. [13:09] I've had James Quinn. [13:11] People are not familiar with James Quinn, and I have had the attorney James Quinn on my show to discuss this. [13:16] James Quinn is the attorney that represented all the major stick and ball sports when they negotiated their collective bargaining agreements. [13:24] He's the guy that worked with them when they came up with the – he was there in the NBA when Oscar Robinson filed an antitrust suit against the NBA. [13:31] He was there when they came up with the idea for the NBA to possibly decertify and sue the league to get concessions instead of strike. [13:41] He was there when the NFL took this strategy. [13:44] So he is very familiar with the subject, and he will tell you the number one thing that drives athletes' wages is not a union. [13:51] A union is there to protect the right to get – to protect the right of a free agency so there's more competition and then negotiate away that right to free agency for concessions. [14:04] But the number one way pay goes up is competition. [14:07] And if you have the structure that you have in MMA, it's specifically designed to prevent competition because you own the title. [14:13] You do not have to compete with other promoters for that champion. [14:17] On top of that, you engage in a practice called coercive contracts, which the OLLI Act specifically prohibited where you say the only way you can compete for – to fight this fighter or compete for this title is you sign a long-term exclusive contract with me. [14:32] Well, that's illegal under the OLLI Act. [14:34] You cannot force people to sign long-term exclusive contracts just for the right to meet one boxer, specifically someone for a title. [14:42] In fact, they have something called mandatories in boxing where if you become the number one challenger, you get the right to compete for that title, win that title, without giving away any contractual obligations in the future. [14:53] And if you win that title, you get to walk away with the belt. [14:56] So in some ways, that's why you see the situation in boxing where there's constant co-promotion, where there's constant movement of big-name fighters moving from promotion to promotion, like Canelo Alvarez, like Devin Haney, like Shakira Stephens. [15:08] All these guys moving around with their titles in place. [15:13] They do not strip – first, they do not have to go through a long process of years and years and multiple fights to finally get out of their contract, although that happens too. [15:20] There's long-term contracts. [15:22] There's all those problems. [15:23] But usually when you get to the very top of the sport, usually a lot of those guys, if you notice, Bud Crawford and Canelo, they're signing short contracts, and they have the right to leave with the titles and rankings as they do so, so other promoters can compete for those. [15:35] John, one of the things that I remember hearing a lot early on in this process was people being kind of surprised, like, hey, where are the boxing promoters pushing back on this attempted TKO sort of takeover of boxing, especially when you have Dana White out there more or less saying, we plan to take over. [15:54] We plan to like – we're beating up babies. [15:57] We plan to take over this sport. [15:58] And with this sort of legislative push, I saw a lot of people going, what is it with these guys? [16:04] Have they not woken up to the reality of what this would mean for them? [16:07] Did they not realize how close it is to actually becoming a reality? [16:11] Why do you think it is that we haven't seen more boxing? [16:14] Do you think that they're starting to wake up to it now, or do you think that they've just – they have seemed kind of absent from this discussion, at least in any substantial way? [16:24] Well, I think there's a couple things at play here. [16:26] One is – well, we have noticed lately, I mean, the last few months, Oscar de la Hoya, who was there at the Senate, has been talking about it. [16:33] Eddie Hearn has. [16:35] You had Bob Arum in top rank have brought it up. [16:38] The kind of surprisingly quiet people are the people at PBC. [16:42] They've been quiet about this, and they're a major player. [16:44] They haven't said anything. [16:46] And so there has been some talk about in boxing. [16:48] But the other problem is I think part of it, too, is they are still very strongly connected to Turkey Allo Sheik, and so they do not want to upset him, right? [17:00] They want to still collect those paychecks, payments, whatever that he's been doing with his Riyadh season. [17:07] But as this moves along, I think they're starting to realize that maybe the Saudi money is drying up, and also maybe this is not in their best interest. [17:14] The other issue is I'm sure a lot of them underestimate TKO. [17:19] I think if you listen to the comments on a lot of promoters, they have this view that Dana White runs Zufa Boxing, and it's just like it's another promotion that's trying to get in the space. [17:29] And for a long time, they didn't quite understand, no, it's more than just another promotion. [17:33] Because, yes, it's Zufa Boxing with Dana White, and they put on shows like everybody else. [17:37] But this is a piece of an entity called TKO that has a monopoly that runs MMA and the UFC, a $20 billion enterprise. [17:46] The WWE, which is pretty close. [17:49] You could make a strong argument that has monopoly, an overwhelming market share of pro wrestling at a $20 billion valuation. [17:56] Staffed by elite executives that are connected to Endeavor that has its hands in multiple entertainment industry businesses, including podcasts and communications and stuff. [18:08] So you get the message out, and then now tied in with the Saudis, which so any money they want to give is probably going to go to the Zufa Boxing. [18:14] So this is an entity that is much bigger, much stronger than any traditional boxing entity. [18:19] And on top of that, they have strong relations to the White House. [18:23] And it's the fact that this bill has been moving so rapidly, just so insanely rapidly through Congress, I think, has finally woken people up. [18:33] This is different than what we've seen before. [18:35] And maybe some of the concerns that people have voiced from MMA that are more actually familiar with this idea of how you take over combat sports markets. [18:43] Maybe they're correct, and we should be concerned about what the future holds if Zufa Boxing gets what they want. [18:48] Hey, John, you know, Oscar de la Hoya, like I know a lot of people are talking about him, but you watch something like this. [18:56] He's got the platform. [18:57] He has the chance to kind of counter and to point out the things that we're talking about. [19:01] Did he do more harm than good in this situation? [19:04] I felt like he was up there and rather, you know, just by basically saying that boxing's in a good place and that it's functional and that it's healthy or whatever. [19:13] Like, that seemed to me the wrong approach here. [19:15] That was a terrible approach. [19:17] The introduction to the bill by Ted Cruz is we all admit that boxing has troubles, and we're here to talk about how to fix it. [19:25] He said, you know, paraphrasing. [19:26] And then, Oscar, boxing is perfect. [19:28] There's no problems. [19:29] Well, we've been laying out. [19:31] Everybody who's a fan, everybody that follows boxing knows. [19:34] And that's been the history of boxing since its founding, you know, since, I mean, not even its founding, since it became popular. [19:38] You can go back and read, like, 1880s, 1890s newspapers articles, boxing's dying, boxing's not going to last for a generation. [19:45] So it's been perpetual dying, and it's had tons of problems throughout its entire history. [19:51] But then here's Oscar saying everything's perfect. [19:53] It was a terrible performance by him. [19:55] I think one problem might have been the fact that they've created this alliance to defend the Ali Act, which is, it's great in some ways. [20:02] Like, finally, a group of people in boxing are getting together to defend the Ali Act. [20:06] And I thought one of the smartest things they did is they put Nico Ali Walsh in the forefront because not only can he speak well on the subject, which we proved, he has the Ali name so he can counter Lonnie Walsh, Lonnie Ali, I mean, that they rolled out at the house hearing. [20:22] So that was very clever of them. [20:26] But then they picked Oscar, and I think the problem is twofold. [20:30] One is, in this alliance are the sanctioning organizations. [20:34] Well, they're the problem. [20:36] And, you know, you can say that this, and this is my argument, this Ali Act, this they're proposing by TKO, is a terribly designed bill designed specifically to benefit them at the expense of everybody else. [20:48] But that doesn't mean that boxing doesn't need some improvements, that the regulations don't need revisiting, and that the sanctioning organizations have failed in their duty. [20:57] And Oscar seemed unwilling to say that, and he also seemed unwilling to basically say anything because he wants the status quo preserved because he's a promoter. [21:08] And that's the sad part of these hearings is if you go back to the 90s hearings, they didn't have just such a small group of people. [21:16] They brought in a huge number of stakeholders to testify, as well as not even in Congress. [21:20] They did written reports. [21:22] So they were bringing in matchmakers. [21:23] They were bringing in trainers. [21:24] They were bringing in boxers. [21:25] They were bringing in members of the media to discuss it, to give just a wide breadth of options and opinions. [21:31] And here it's a very narrow focus on those for it and those against it. [21:35] And that's, I mean, it's obviously it's designed not to produce the best bill possible. [21:39] Well, we're speaking about Oscar De La Hoya, and Chuck and John have spoke about some of the criticism you got here. [21:46] Here is his opening gambit. [21:48] And again, we've cut it down just so you get the best bits. [21:52] This principle change of the proposed amendment allows a promoter to create an entity that serves as both promoter and governing body, a so-called unified boxing organization. [22:03] This mirrors the existing MMA model and creates a closed system controlling rankings, titles, and access to opportunity. [22:11] Under this structure, as long as the UBO complies with its own internal rules, it would not violate the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act. [22:20] Meanwhile, traditional promoters like myself would still be required to comply with full financial disclosures and reporting requirements. [22:27] In other words, one system operates under transparency and accountability, while the UBOs do not. [22:34] This is a fundamental shift in power that, if changed, would put corporate profits first, fighters second. [22:40] We should be clear about who benefits from this. [22:43] These changes align directly with what Zufa Boxing and its leadership at TKO Group Holdings have already said they intend to build in boxing, a model similar to the UFC. [22:52] And we already know what that model looks like, and it does not work for the fighters. [22:58] The UFC and its parent company agreed to a $375 million antitrust settlement after fighters accused them of suppressing wages and restricting competition. [23:09] At the same time, Zufa Boxing is fully funded by the Saudis. [23:14] We've already seen how that kind of funding reshaped another sport through Live Golf. [23:18] We should be honest about what is happening here. [23:21] That was sportswashing, a clear effort to use sports to reshape reputation. [23:26] In current Zufa contracts, fighters are locked into rigid earning structures with little to no ability to negotiate. [23:32] The promoter controls all major revenue streams, including media rights, ticket sales, and sponsorships, [23:38] while fighters are limited to guaranteed purses and discretionary bonuses, with only narrow participation in upside revenue. [23:46] As an independent contractor, fighters won't have leverage when one system controls all opportunities. [23:52] Under current law, fighters already have the right to see the financials behind every event they headline, [23:57] giving them a fair opportunity to negotiate their compensation. [24:01] I also want to address safety. [24:03] The proposed changes suggest improved protections, but boxing already has strong safeguards in place and existing protections, [24:09] including health insurance for injuries and life insurance for fighters' families. [24:13] Commissions and promoters ensure fighters are medically cleared and covered and cover related costs. [24:20] If this proposal is truly about protecting fighters, why are MMA athletes not included at all? [24:26] And there was Oscar De La Hoya, and of course, we did speak about his kind of stance where nothing's wrong with boxing, [24:34] which hasn't really gone well with most people I've heard speaking about this afterwards. [24:39] His opponent, I guess, John, was Nick Khan, and he is so good at speaking to these people. [24:45] I feel like I was listening to this, and I was disagreeing with nearly everything he said, [24:50] but I was like, it just feels like it's playing so well. [24:53] He's so smooth. [24:53] Like, he at one point, at several points, he was bringing up amateur boxing and the Olympics, [24:59] and I was like, what the fuck has this got to do with this act? [25:03] Like, amateur boxing, I don't know how they're making the argument that somehow this UBO being founded [25:08] will somehow help boxing in 2028 at the Olympics, and we can have another Oscar De La Hoya. [25:14] He mentioned at one point, like, nobody in the world, like, he had the middleweight thing where he said, [25:17] who is the middleweight champion? [25:19] And Nick Khan had all the answers there. [25:21] Ted Cruz asked him. [25:22] Nick Khan had the answer. [25:23] He also said another point, like, nobody knows who the heavyweight champion of boxing is. [25:27] Usyk, nobody knows who this guy is. [25:30] I feel like he is speaking to the people that matter, you know, in terms of this Congress, [25:37] these people in the Senate. [25:38] They can't think of these things off the top of their head, but how valuable of an asset is Khan [25:43] in all of this, given his legal background? [25:45] I mean, he's tremendously valuable. [25:47] In fact, if you notice, for the two hearings they've done in the House and the Senate, [25:51] who didn't make an appearance, who was not there to argue on behalf of Zipo Boxing, [25:56] even though he's supposedly the front person of Zipo Boxing. [25:58] They had Lawrence Epstein, did a tremendous job, incredibly skilled at this, at the first House hearing, [26:04] and then they have Nick Khan for the Senate hearing. [26:06] So they're keeping Dana White's job is not to speak about this. [26:11] In other words, when they do interviews, too. [26:13] Do you notice when it comes to time for an important vote, who was out doing all the interviews about Zipo Boxing at the time? [26:18] It was Epstein and Nick Khan. [26:20] So they're very, very important assets to have for this. [26:24] They're very well-spoken on it. [26:26] But you look at the comments Oscar said. [26:29] First of all, I'll go out for Oscar's opening statement, which actually was pretty good for the most part. [26:34] He did an excellent job of comparing it, like what they're trying to do to the UFC, [26:37] and then laying out the problems with the UFC, the complaints that maybe the Senate wasn't aware of. [26:42] And then he closed with a strong statement, like if these protections, if this bill is so great, [26:46] why doesn't it include MMA fighters? [26:48] But then he had to insert a little thing in the middle, which I don't have any idea why he inserted this. [26:54] I don't know who told him to put this in there about how current medical protections are great for boxers. [27:00] Because, yes, you could say we've come a long way from where we used to be. [27:05] Look what the 1996 Health and Safety Act did for the boxing. [27:09] It improved it tremendously. [27:11] We are doing a much better job than we ever did in the past, [27:14] but we're talking about the health and safety of fighters. [27:16] We can always do more. [27:17] Let's investigate and see what is more we can do. [27:20] What can we accomplish more that is possible without putting out of business tons of club shows, [27:27] which potentially this bill could have done if they would have left a previous provision in. [27:31] So that would have been an argument, but his argument like, oh, health and safety is perfect. [27:36] Well, I think that's, I mean, that's just, you know, it just seems tone deaf on the subject. [27:41] Even if you were going to do a hearing about MMA, I wouldn't recommend Zufa boxing or, I mean, the UFC, [27:49] if they're going to do an MMA hearing in the Senate to say, oh, the health and safety standards are perfect in MMA. [27:54] We could never improve them. [27:56] You know, you wouldn't, that would be pointless by them. [27:58] They could brag about how good a job they've done than everybody else. [28:01] But you'd think they would be smart enough to say, we can always do better. [28:05] Help us come up with even a better system for everybody. [28:08] And I don't know why Oscar couldn't do that. [28:10] He just has to defend the status quo, which is just an absurd thing for him to do. [28:14] Now to Nick Kahn and his statements, it was impressive what he said, but there is, you know, [28:21] and this I give him credit, is no one's going to question him. [28:23] No one's going to do any fact finding on it and see, oh, is he telling the truth or not? [28:29] We do not have a pants on fire meter going with him because he brought up that there was only one champion [28:34] when Marvin Hagler was champion, and that's true. [28:38] Marvin Hagler was the man, but it still was a three belt era. [28:42] He was the one guy because he had unified the belts. [28:46] I mean, it was also a little different at the time because the IBF had just appeared. [28:50] But still, the fact is he's complaining there's too many titles, and yet your example, [28:55] Marvin Hagler held three titles, and that's excluding the Ring Magazine title yield. [29:00] And you're talking about we're trying to bring some sort of unity to the sport. [29:06] That's the other argument. [29:07] At the same time, we're offering options, just options. [29:09] Fighters can choose either system. [29:11] Well, if the problem is there's too many titles and you're offering options for fighters [29:15] and you're going to introduce another title, aren't you just making more titles? [29:20] Unless the goal is that there aren't options and this is the only title that matters. [29:24] And so no one's going to question that, though. [29:27] Everybody seems to let those things pass. [29:31] But he is well-versed in the subject, and I think that's the big problem is [29:35] Nick Khan and TKO knew they're going to introduce this bill. [29:39] They knew they're going to have to appear in front of the Senate. [29:42] I know, you know, we can, I don't know for fact, I'm not in Zupa's room, but I know pretty [29:46] close to fact that he has probably had hours upon hours of meetings to discuss this. [29:52] He has probably read hours and hours of reports and deck slides and presentations of what they're [29:57] going to do. [29:58] They have probably done focus groups. [29:59] In fact, I'm pretty sure they've done focus groups to go over the messaging. [30:02] What's the strongest message they can do? [30:04] And he has that on his side. [30:06] On the other side is Oscar De La Jolla had a good written statement, but the subject is [30:11] not something he has been debating, discussing for a long time. [30:15] This is something that only in the last few weeks or days, he's made the decision that [30:19] he's going to go and fight. [30:20] And so when they ask him specific questions, it doesn't, it's not ingrained into his system [30:24] to come out with the right answer. [30:25] He is, you know, searching for answers and falls back on the defense that everything's [30:29] fine. [30:30] Leave it alone or just clap back Thursday defenses. [30:33] John, what, what's your sense on when the, I guess the appropriate time for WrestleMania to [30:40] visit Cleveland, would you prefer it in 2029 or 30? [30:44] Can you believe that Ohio got rid of Sherrod Brown for what they got now that they let the [30:52] cryptocurrency guys fucking spend an outrageous amount of money to get him out of office. [30:56] So we could have guys that blatantly asked for, you know, an open bribe. [31:01] He kept going back to it too. [31:02] Like he was like, at first you're like, all right, that's funny. [31:04] And then he goes back to it like three times. [31:06] I would, I think it would have been amusing if Oscar did say, Mr. Moreno, are you saying [31:10] that your vote is dependent on if they bring Melissa Mania to Ohio? [31:13] Is that what you're saying? [31:14] Yes, sir. [31:15] As a matter of fact, I am saying. [31:16] Because that would at least maybe got some attention in the news about that. [31:20] And that's one thing that's kind of interesting, maybe sad, is that this story and combat [31:25] sports as a whole has not been picked up by the greater news media world at all, because [31:32] you know, it has all these elements you would think that would draw interest from mostly [31:37] the, like the left to center, but the, you know, not all of them are left to center, but [31:41] the labor news media groups, the antitrust groups, all these subject, corporate cronyism, [31:49] all the, all of these things are, are kind of tied into this subject right now, as we're [31:53] seeing it. [31:54] And there's no one to seem to pick up on that outside of the combat sports bubble. [31:59] And so we're getting no attention from, you know, the pundits that seem to follow this. [32:03] And on top of that, even on the Democrat side and the Republican side, I guess we're a long [32:07] ways from John McCain, who was an actual fan that actually tried to do something because [32:12] if they, if there were any more John McCain's, you'd think they would dust off the bills McCain [32:16] introduced to fix the problem that never got voted on and were partly blocked by lobbying [32:21] by Zufa, that we're supposed to address these issues of the ALIAC not being as effective [32:27] as it was. [32:28] But on the Democrat side, who've argued for a while, we've got to become this more populous, [32:33] pro-labor, anti-corporate, anti-monopoly party, is that you think it'd be ingrained in their [32:40] nature just to suddenly start raising questions, and yet they do not. [32:44] They seem to give a pass to a company that has the brother of Rahm Emanuel running it. [32:50] Sorry, go ahead. [32:52] My question is, I guess I've been one of those people who's been a little fatalistic about [32:56] any attempt to oppose this, just because it seems like, especially right now in American [33:01] government, when the big companies with a whole lot of money who also happen to be close [33:07] personal friends with the president want something, they get it. [33:09] And so you mentioned early in the show that you thought there were more, it wasn't just [33:16] necessarily a given that this would go through, that there's a lot going on, you know, that's [33:20] obviously true. [33:22] What do you think could reasonably stop it? [33:25] What would that actually look like? [33:27] Do you think it's just that distraction of what else is happening in American governments [33:31] would be the thing that just stops us from bringing it to a vote and getting it to Trump's [33:35] desk? [33:35] Like, what would make this not just sail right through? [33:40] Well, I think that'd be the major thing with something big pops up that just derails all [33:44] votes in the House, in the Congress, that they have bigger priorities. [33:49] I mean, they already have bigger priorities than this, obviously, but something so big [33:53] that they, you know, they have to, all their attention goes to that. [33:55] And this just is thrown to the curb. [33:58] That's number one. [33:58] That's possible. [33:59] I mean, it's kind of unlikely, but it's possible, especially in this climate that might happen. [34:04] I think the biggest hurdles they're going to face is one thing is interesting is Ted Cruz [34:11] said that he's going to introduce a new version of the bill, which surprised me because I thought [34:15] for sure he would introduce an identical version as the one that came out of the House. [34:20] And the reason I thought he didn't introduce an identical one, because if it passed with [34:23] no changes, then the bill could go straight to the desk of Donald Trump to sign. [34:28] Now, because it's going to be slightly different, if it passes the Senate, they have to reconcile [34:34] the two bills. [34:35] So they have to go back to the chambers to find out what they're going to do to get, you [34:39] know, about the differences they have in the bill. [34:41] And that would give an opportunity, because remember, Democrats said they were not satisfied [34:45] with the bill. [34:46] They're hoping to get another stab at it. [34:48] Well, that would give them a chance to get another stab at it, create more problems. [34:51] And the longer the process takes, the more likely something pops up that derails it, the [34:58] more likely, you know, I mean, there is a possible if something comes and derails long [35:01] enough, what happens if we get to the end of the, of this session of Congress and it doesn't [35:08] get passed because something got in the way and has to be reintroduced? [35:11] Well, you think it immediately get voted on, but then what happens if the Democrats run [35:15] both houses, right? [35:16] Well, both chambers, I should say, the House and the, and the Senate. [35:19] Well, then the bill might die because it's not a, it's not a priority for the Democrats. [35:24] It's a priority for the Republicans because someone from the white house called them and [35:28] said, this is a priority. [35:29] Let's push this bill through. [35:30] So I think that's the best chances that the process gets dragged out, which can happen [35:37] and it gets dragged out long enough that something else, uh, intercede, uh, interjects into the [35:43] process to extend it even further to the point where it's after the elections. [35:47] Uh, and now it's too late because the, you know, if we go into next year, the, a new, [35:51] uh, Senate and, and, uh, and house of representatives takes their seats and they might be democratic [35:57] control and they're not gonna be interested in pushing this bill through. [36:01] John. [36:01] But that's unlikely. [36:02] I should know if that's unlikely. [36:05] Um, once again, we're so grateful to have you on here. [36:08] Um, you are unbelievable on this kind of terrain. [36:11] Um, we look forward to everything you're going to put up on. [36:15] Hey, not the face sub stack. [36:17] Uh, we love the podcast. [36:18] Hopefully we'll even get something on, on crown because I know you've done some writing [36:21] for us, which has been very well received too. [36:24] Uh, thank you so much for joining us today, John. [36:27] I really appreciate it. [36:27] Thanks for having me and the cat on. [36:30] I hope you're relieved that they found a Dana's phone too. [36:34] Oh yeah. [36:34] Oh yeah. [36:35] I was very relieved. [36:35] Yes. [36:36] About that. [36:36] People aren't, people aren't aware on last week, this last thing before you guys kick me off [36:41] the show because I'm sure people are tired of the subject, but in the antitrust suit that's [36:46] going on, people are not aware of that is Oscar La Hoya and Nick, Nick, Nick, Olly Walsh [36:49] brought up the UFC is being sued again for class act for antitrust violations and a potential [36:54] class action. [36:55] Uh, and part of the process is discovery that UFC was ordered by the court to preserve all [37:01] evidence and then hand it over, uh, to the defendants, uh, to examine for potential [37:07] information. [37:07] And so the UFC since 2014 has been under an order to preserve all their cell phone communications [37:13] and just a long list of problems they've had on the UFC, the defendant side is that they've [37:19] lost phones. [37:20] They accidentally deleted or set phones to delete, uh, that they did not alert the court [37:25] that endeavor executives were using the signal app, which came out during the, the Vince [37:30] McMahon lawsuit with the, uh, the UFC WWE merger, uh, on that discovery, they found out that [37:37] Ari Emanuel and Mark Shapiro had the signal app and had been deleting their messages and [37:41] didn't report that, uh, just a, just a long list of stuff. [37:45] And one problem too, is Dana White was missing a phone on top of having accidentally deleted, [37:50] apparently a bunch of material, uh, and his missing phone. [37:53] They thought that, uh, uh, Ari Emanuel's nephew had stolen. [37:57] And so that was the reason, but yes, the intern. [38:01] And now, but they go, Oh, that was a mistake. [38:02] He didn't steal it. [38:03] We have now found the phone. [38:05] Uh, it was in the back of an old BMW. [38:09] Dana White had used a couple of BMWs ago, uh, but because it was in a black leather case [38:13] on black leather seats, we couldn't find it. [38:16] Uh, and now we found it. [38:17] And, uh, the question is, uh, I don't think they have the password for it, so they can't [38:22] open it. [38:22] So they're handing it to the forensic expert and he will see if there's anything on that [38:25] phone. [38:26] You know, I know how that is. [38:28] My, one of my daughters, uh, left a chicken strip in the little back of the seat, like [38:34] little pocket behind the seat. [38:36] Uh, that thing been there. [38:37] That was two summers ago. [38:39] So it can happen. [38:40] It can happen. [38:41] Yeah. [38:41] I mean, all I could think of was Homer Simpson when he was asking for the, the, the speaker [38:46] to, to yell at Bart. [38:47] And then he had the only thing he could ask him was where's the remote. [38:50] And it was in his back pocket. [38:51] And that's what I like. [38:52] All I could think of was that, that moment. [38:54] And I go, why, you know, it feels like that. [38:57] John, thank you once again. [38:59] Uh, we really appreciate it. [39:00] And hopefully we'll have you back on to, uh, spit some game in our air about this, uh, [39:04] current, uh, reform act or proposed reform. [39:07] Anytime you guys want, anytime, anytime you want, anytime I can do it. [39:10] And anytime that works, I guess is the, there's a lot of, there's like, we don't want [39:14] to have your people contact my people. [39:15] Oh, well. [39:16] I absolutely will. [39:17] Thank you again, John. [39:18] What a guy. [39:19] Um, right lads. [39:21] I mean, it's just the three of us now. [39:22] It's a bit weird. [39:23] And look, Ben's in a bad mood because seconds before the show today, I sent him a message [39:28] to say that the Saudis have pulled the support from the opera, the metropolitan opera, uh, [39:33] Benny. [39:34] Okay. [39:34] First of all, because we knew, look, we knew the Saudis would pull the money and the opera [39:38] is something close to your heart. [39:40] I just wanted to, can I get a list of the things that the Saudis don't financially support [39:46] it feels like that would be a lot quick. [39:49] It honestly starts to make me feel a little bit like, how come the, the co-main event [39:55] podcast that I co-host is my Saudis. [39:58] Like how, how come, you know, we're over here at the university of Montana cutting our, uh, [40:02] you know, English master's program where the Saudis just couldn't, couldn't dip in the [40:07] pocketbook just a little bit. [40:09] Like they're funding everything else in America. [40:11] What the hell's going on? [40:13] It's a, it's a good point. [40:15] I mean, it's, it is interesting though, right? [40:17] This Saudi cutting all this money. [40:18] Well, this is going on. [40:19] And the figures, wasn't it like $200 million or something like that? [40:22] 200 million. [40:23] Yeah. [40:23] I mean, it's not like it's insubstantial, you know, it's like, that's a, that's a big [40:27] number. [40:27] It is like, I mean, it's billions there. [40:30] They're, they're obviously invest in formula one live golf. [40:33] We saw that collapse. [40:34] And obviously Saudis are a partner with, uh, TKO and this boxing venture. [40:39] Interestingly, um, I saw an interview with Eddie Herney tends to do them quite a bit. [40:44] He was speaking about Devin Haney and he was kind of saying, look, we don't have the money [40:49] to pay this guy. [40:50] He is not interested in, you know, traditional boxing bouts as we used to do with them. [40:55] He wants the big ones. [40:56] And next of all, a report is out that they're talking about doing Haney and Shakur Stevenson [41:01] on a Zufa promotion on Netflix. [41:03] And it's like, how is this with all this money being pulled and they're saying we can't invest [41:11] in this. [41:11] It's kind of feeling like, are you guys making money back on this boxing venture? [41:15] Cause I don't think it is actually possible that they could be making money off this. [41:19] I just wonder why this seems to be their last stand combat sports. [41:25] You know what I mean? [41:26] Am I missing something? [41:27] I think in part because Turkey's it's, that's his enthusiasm, right? [41:31] Like he likes boxing. [41:32] I mean, I swear, I think it's just as that simple sometimes that it's an area of interest [41:37] more than the others, you know? [41:39] Yeah. [41:40] I mean, that honestly is shockingly plausible like that. [41:43] If it comes down to it, somebody looks at the books and says, we got to trim some of [41:48] the fat here. [41:49] What do you want to lose? [41:50] And they go, we are spending an awful lot of money on boxing. [41:54] And he goes, but I actually really enjoy that. [41:56] And they go, what about the Metropolitan Opera? [41:59] And he goes, okay, that one. [42:01] Take that one. [42:03] Golf gone. [42:04] Golf? [42:04] Who watches golf? [42:05] The, went to see something at the Met was not nearly as fun as I thought it was going to [42:10] be. [42:11] Boxing. [42:12] That was a lot more fun. [42:13] Just get rid of it. [42:14] Well, who knows? [42:16] Maybe you'll have an investment in RAF soon because Ben Foulkes wrote a big old article [42:20] about RAF, Chael Son, a million dollar investment and a prospect by the name of Bo Bassett, I [42:26] believe. [42:26] And really a great article, by the way, and great quotes from Chael and Bo. [42:32] But really the thing that's jumping out to me from this article, Ben, is obviously we [42:36] know RAF has rose to prominence by using a lot of the fighters from the UFC roster, namely [42:42] Armin Sarukian, who's become pretty much the poster boy of this situation. [42:46] A lot of people believe that TKO, UFC are allowing these fighters to work with RAF to [42:53] kind of stand alongside their arguments on the class action suits that John was just [42:57] discussing. [42:58] They've recently announced that Hamzat Shemaev has joined the roster. [43:02] Armin Sarukian appeared on Ariel's show on Wednesday and said, you know, they're getting [43:06] money commensurate to what they're getting for UFC fights and RAF. [43:09] Like you have this prospect, Bo Bassett, who you spoke to, he's sounds like an extremely [43:14] talented guy. [43:15] You've listed off the opponents. [43:16] He's beast. [43:17] There has always been a conversation about after college, after the Olympics, what do [43:22] you do as a wrestler? [43:23] Is this becoming a viable option? [43:24] Do you think for wrestlers to continue their careers beyond those Olympic and collegiate [43:29] dreams? [43:30] Well, I mean, for a guy like Bo Bassett, it was a viable option before even entering college. [43:35] It's just, he's obviously a rare case, but I do think there's something happening with [43:40] RAF where if you've been around in this combat sports zone for a while, you've seen a few [43:45] different people try to launch some sort of real wrestling promotion and almost never does [43:52] it work for any length of time. [43:55] Like it's never worked. [43:56] It's never been a going concern. [43:58] It's always been just sort of here and gone. [44:00] It's difficult to get people who aren't already super into wrestling into wrestling because [44:05] it's, it's a highly technical sport. [44:07] You got to know a lot about it to begin with, to even sort of enjoy what you're seeing for [44:11] the most part, uh, the, the rules, the scoring criteria, all that is not especially fan friendly [44:18] if you're not already in it. [44:21] And RAF has found a level of success that we haven't seen anybody else get to. [44:27] One of the ways they've done it is like they, they do, if you watch the broadcast, they, [44:32] they do have a pretty fan friendly approach to it. [44:34] It's a, it's a good looking broadcast. [44:36] They move quickly from one match to the next and they're roping in such an interesting cast [44:42] of characters that we've heard of. [44:44] And so they're kind of following a similar model that BKFC has done where they go, Hey, [44:49] we'll get some of these interesting people into interesting matchups where you go, I do wonder [44:54] how that would play out. [44:55] Let me go over there and they have the advantage. [44:58] The complete opposite of BKFC is that they can go to somebody like Armin Sarukian, or [45:02] they can go to somebody like Uriah Faber and be like, Hey man, it's a wrestling match. [45:06] It's kind of low stakes, low risk. [45:09] I mean, at least if you stay on the mat and you don't run your opponent onto the concrete [45:13] on purpose, you, the risk of you getting hurt in, you know, uh, three periods of wrestling [45:19] is, is pretty low, especially if you know what you're doing. [45:23] Maybe you win, maybe you lose, but you don't take too much of a hit. [45:26] You don't get your face all beat up. [45:28] You don't take brain trauma or anything, and you can make some decent money. [45:31] Now, I don't know what kind of money they're making back. [45:33] They have a deal with Fox nation. [45:35] That's where you got to sign up for an account to go watch it and everything. [45:38] So they, they have pretty good crowds that it feels like a real event. [45:42] I don't know if they're turning a profit. [45:44] I would, I would say almost likely they are not turning a profit paying these guys that [45:50] kind of money this early on in the thing. [45:52] But then that's probably the case for BKFC still too. [45:55] I do think that one of the things it was interesting talking to Chael about it because he, you see [46:01] him on these broadcasts and you can tell Chael really loves wrestling and has loved it since [46:06] he was a kid coming up from wrestling, uh, all through high school, you know, went to college, [46:11] went to BYU just to wrestle was not at all interested in the religious aspect of BYU. [46:16] The way he put it to me one day was that, yeah, that they'd come and talk to you about [46:20] it, but he said, I'm a Catholic and I'm a Catholic on purpose. [46:24] They're not going to convince me of anything. [46:26] And BYU cut their wrestling program. [46:29] And Chael said he was looking for places to transfer the next day, transferred university [46:34] of Oregon, uh, back home and went back there and wrestled. [46:37] And he still has this love for wrestling. [46:41] Very evident how excited he is on these broadcasts, but also he's been around it long enough that [46:47] he referred to it as a road to nowhere. [46:50] That, and he was talking about somebody he knew where he's like, I know this guy is [46:53] a, he's a state champ in high school. [46:55] No college programs were interested in him. [46:57] There aren't that many big time college programs left the, you know, basically you can go to [47:02] somewhere where it's a club sport, essentially not even an NCAA sport, but none of the big [47:06] time programs were interested. [47:07] And so it was just like, Hey, congratulations on your state high school wrestling championship. [47:11] It's over your wrestling career is over 17, 18, and it's just over. [47:16] And he's like, you know, that is still the reality in wrestling. [47:20] And I go back and forth between hoping that it could, you already have something could [47:26] give you an opportunity to do it beyond that. [47:28] But he said, everybody eventually leaves that sport with a broken heart and a bad back. [47:33] And as much as he was excited about Bo Bassett felt, you know, his offer, he explained, he [47:38] was like, I was basically offering, I'll give you a million dollars to sign you to an NIL [47:42] deal because I think I'll be able to turn around and sell you as a marketable commodity, other [47:47] places in a way that will bring me more than a million dollars. [47:51] And I'm going to keep everything I make back, but I guarantee you the million dollars and just [47:55] wasn't able to pull it off. [47:57] But it also, it just seems like the market is still so small. [48:02] The question is, can you either grow that audience base for wrestling, or you would have [48:10] to get better at getting absolutely every single human being who is at all interested in wrestling [48:15] to watch this, or you just have to get better at monetizing it somehow. [48:19] Like right now, I don't know if we have seen yet whether this is going to work, but I will [48:24] say it is working better than anything we've ever seen anybody else try up to now. [48:30] You know, right. [48:31] You're right. [48:31] Faber said he had a bad back, but that out of bounds thing actually fixed his back. [48:35] You can't convince me. [48:37] Armin's not doing that stuff on purpose, man. [48:39] Like, and he's just misunderstood Ben. [48:42] He's just missing this. [48:43] Okay. [48:43] He drives them like 50 feet off the, yeah. [48:46] Like, and especially, and did it at a point in the match where the match was essentially [48:51] over. [48:51] You were going to win. [48:52] And you didn't have to do all that you didn't, you're doing too much. [48:55] And, but yet there's no way, like if you're RAF, you've got to be pretty happy with the [49:02] investment, the return on investment you're getting from Armin Sarukian. [49:04] Cause if you're paying him that much to come and wrestle for you, he's wrestling for you [49:08] like every month and every single time, pretty much he does it. [49:13] He does something that makes people go, all right, what is this guy's deal? [49:18] He does something that where the video circulates on social media, it drifts around all the [49:23] real place online and people are reminded that this thing exists and that some interesting [49:27] stuff is happening there. [49:28] And so he's doing you a huge favor by doing stuff that creates these viral moments. [49:34] It's just also kind of a dick move to other people because he's doing it at somebody else's [49:40] expense pretty much every time. [49:41] I mean, he's a godsend. [49:43] It's almost like a, and for them, he's probably more popular. [49:45] I wrote about this at one point, like he's probably more popular right now with RAF than [49:50] he was as a UFC fighter. [49:51] If you just strictly like divide them, which is a crazy thing. [49:54] Cause you're like what you just said, nobody pays attention to it. [49:57] Otherwise, you know, it's, it's very difficult if you're trying to like, like you mentioned [50:02] BKFC, like a lot of times it's like, let's take these MMA brand names and put them in [50:07] our, our ring and see what they do. [50:09] People will peek in on that, but it's, it's tough to get an MMA, you know, a person who [50:16] watches MMA to pay attention to something more specific. [50:19] We're used to a wider range of things that you're watching within a fight, a little more [50:23] danger zones, all that stuff. [50:25] So to go to wrestling specifically, like, you know, real wrestling, it is, you know, it's [50:31] like going from like an action movie that you've watched for, you know, into like some kind [50:35] of weird think piece that you're like, we're not used to watching this kind of thing. [50:39] It's been the way they've navigated that. [50:41] I mean, Armand plays a huge role in it, but the way they've navigated that has been very [50:45] good. [50:45] I would say that that it is one of the more positive things. [50:47] I remember, you remember like Metamorris and some of the jujutsu, they would start those [50:51] up. [50:51] And I thought that that might have the effect. [50:53] They tried, they pumped the money into it. [50:55] They were paying their competitors fairly well, but it just didn't have any traction. [50:59] But I feel like this right now has traction and they've kept the kind of overhead lower [51:03] by just, you know, going to college hotbeds, you know, college wrestling, hotbeds and smaller [51:08] venues and, you know, affordable production. [51:12] I know they're probably not turning a profit yet, but given the exposure that it's gotten, [51:16] I bet the trade-off right now is still worth it. [51:18] Right. [51:18] Cause people are paying attention to it. [51:20] Yeah. [51:20] It's, it's, I feel like the way they've used Armand, they're nearly in that situation that [51:26] the UFC were in with Chuck Liddell when everyone's like, yeah, well, what are they going to do [51:30] when, when this guy goes away? [51:31] And of course the UFC did a great job, obviously on a smaller scale, they aren't quite there. [51:35] Like, I mean, they're not on the cover of magazines, big magazines, sports illustrated, [51:39] all that kind of stuff. [51:40] But I would be interested to see if they can get a draw akin to Armand. [51:46] So it's just not so heavily on his shoulders right now. [51:48] Certainly for the casual audience, I'd say it absolutely is casual audience in mind, [51:52] a big fight coming up at the white house. [51:54] Don't know if you guys heard about it. [51:56] White house is where your president lives. [51:58] I believe the UFC part of the time, part of the time, yeah, UFC, a big, big fighting [52:05] company. [52:05] They're doing an event there. [52:07] There's lots of talk about the structure building and blah, blah, blah. [52:10] One thing we do know is Alex Pereira is going to fight on that card. [52:13] Chuck Bendenhall has wrote an article this very week about the GOAT status that he could [52:20] somehow capture should he win against Cyril Gann. [52:24] And it's a very well done article because, Chuck, you've broken down everything. [52:28] Like all of the candidates there, your GSPs, your Jon Jones, your Anderson Silva's, even [52:34] Habib Nurmagomedov makes an appearance. [52:35] I mean, when you lay it out, right, when I was reading the thing at the start, I was [52:40] kind of like, come on, it's an interim title fight. [52:42] But when you lay it out, the fact that this guy has defended the middleweight title, the [52:46] fact that he has defended the light heavyweight title, has won back the light heavyweight [52:49] title after losing it to ankle IF, where do you stand? [52:53] Are you beginning to convince yourself with those beautiful words you put down on paper? [52:57] Well, it was Michael Chiesa who actually said this first, right? [53:01] That was like, it got me to thinking, and I was like, I should actually look at this. [53:05] Because he said, if Pereira goes and wins a third division title, that he's the GOAT. [53:11] And at first, I'm like, that's ridiculous. [53:15] That's not true. [53:16] We've seen him lose, you know. [53:18] But then you start thinking about it, I'm like, wait a minute, what's the criteria of [53:22] determining this? [53:23] It's like, how do you get, how do you like defend it if you really believe that? [53:27] Like, how would you defend the guys against him who haven't done that? [53:29] For instance, Habib, he was, I brought him into it because he barely lost a round during [53:35] his career, you know? [53:36] And like, that has to be considered through this process. [53:39] But ultimately, when I was doing this, I was like, no, not really. [53:44] Because what you start to think about is the circumstances surrounding each step, you know? [53:50] And like, and so, you know, he wins. [53:52] And I mean, still to this day, the biggest accomplishment was him beating Izzy in that [53:56] first time, right? [53:57] And like, kind of pounding home the past story and saying like, hey, check it out. [54:00] I can beat him in MMA too. [54:02] Now I've got his title. [54:03] But then he loses it. [54:05] And I thought that, you know, kind of order was restored. [54:08] And he goes to 205 pounds more out of like, you know what, I don't want to make the weight [54:13] cut. [54:13] And I don't really want the, you know, I'm just going to go and try this other. [54:17] I don't really think that we were all looking at him as like, he's going to challenge [54:20] immediately for a title, but he ends up doing that. [54:23] His run there is very good. [54:25] But circumstantially, we've talked about the heavyweight mess that's been going on for so [54:29] long. [54:30] The belts, the interims and everything, and people like stepping aside and vacating and [54:35] everything that's gone on. [54:36] For him to fight Cyril Ghosn, who has already lost to a series of the great names in the [54:40] division, even if it is an interim third title, like it's a third title, I would probably [54:47] need to see him win that and then unify that before I would have that real discussion with [54:53] Alex Pereira. [54:54] I mean, I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts on this, because that's, to me, I'm like, [54:57] okay, I guess you could start to put him in that picture. [55:00] But that's what he would have to do, I think, for me to be like, okay, now there's serious [55:03] consideration for this. [55:05] Yeah, I think that it's the kind of thing that if you beat Cyril Ghosn, you add another, [55:11] a version of another UFC title in another weight class. [55:15] And certainly it's a great accomplishment, it looks good on paper, but as you know, [55:21] the GOAT conversation is always at least a little bit of a vibes conversation. [55:26] Yes, it is. [55:26] No, it's not, it's never just about like the accomplishment, we're going on like how [55:31] we see you, how we perceive you. [55:33] And if you go in there and you beat Cyril Ghosn, who at this point kind of has developed [55:38] a reputation of the UFC are going to keep giving him title shots when no one else is available [55:43] or willing, you know? [55:45] And so it's like, it's still meaningful to beat Cyril Ghosn at heavyweight, it's still [55:49] impressive to keep going up and wait to start out at middleweight and end up at heavyweight [55:54] knocking people out. [55:55] And it would be a huge stage to do it on. [55:57] Alex Pereira seems like one of those guys where the more people get a chance to see him, [56:02] the more people go, this guy seems interesting. [56:04] What's he going to do next? [56:05] So like, it is a good opportunity for him to gain a lot of fan base stuff. [56:08] But for those of us in the hardcore MMA world, having those goat conversations, you do need [56:15] to beat somebody like a Tom Aspinall or even a John Jones would have done it. [56:19] I think because that, that was why that was such a huge missed opportunity for the UFC. [56:24] Cause if you could have made that fight, if you could have made Alex Pereira versus John [56:28] Jones, we would have all gotten so excited about that matchup that we, for the moment, [56:33] ignored the fact that the real heavyweight champion is at home letting his eyes heat. [56:38] And instead you put Cyril Ghosn in there and we go, first of all, it seems like the guy [56:43] who gouged the dude's eyes is being rewarded for it in a way. [56:47] But also that no one was looking at Cyril Ghosn as this is the best heavyweight in the world [56:51] at the time that you booked this fight. [56:53] So I think it would take at least one more. [56:56] Yeah. [56:56] Well, I really enjoyed it, Chuck, because I found myself having an internal debate as [57:00] I was reading it. [57:00] You know what I mean? [57:01] I've always been a GSP guy, you know? [57:03] Well, that's always been my default is like with GSP, but then you kind of break down and [57:07] we're talking about kind of opportunities or circumstances in which you kind of make good [57:12] on something. [57:13] Obviously, coming back from 2013 to 2017, he comes back after four years and he fights [57:17] the one guy who's like, yeah, you know what? [57:19] I could go in there and beat Michael Bisping. [57:23] He's got one eye and he's like, at the time he was something like 38, I don't even know. [57:29] So, I mean, even him, like you can start to be like, well, how do you discount these [57:36] things? [57:36] How do you properly discount these things? [57:38] Like even Habib, you're like, well, he's 29 and 0, but just kind of look at his conquest [57:44] list and you're like, that's not as good as some of these other guys. [57:47] And then you get Jon Jones, who it's like, there should be an obvious answer, but he's [57:50] popped hot for, I mean, some people that's an automatic exclusion, right? [57:53] Like they don't even entertain Jon Jones, just given that he's, he's been busted for [57:58] steroids, right? [57:59] Like I, and then, you know, that kind of puts Anderson Silva into a weird spot there too. [58:04] So it just, it really depends on how you want to, how you want to kind of score it in [58:10] the end. [58:10] Like you said, it is a vibes conversation because you could, you could make the argument [58:14] for all these guys. [58:15] You could also argue yourself out of all of these guys. [58:17] Yeah. [58:18] You know, you mentioned the, the GSP, Michael Bisping fight about, you know, GSP definitely seizing [58:23] that moment to be like, now I am interested in middle. [58:26] I know when I see who the champion is, there was Michael Bisping once told me when I wrote [58:32] a story and he was talking about that fight and how, you know, he had been successfully [58:37] fooling people about how bad his eye was for a while by that point, but that he thought [58:43] GSP in his camp had a sense that there is, there's some blind spots for Michael Bisping. [58:51] And he said that when they did the thing, you know, they're at Madison square garden [58:54] for that fight and they exchanged corners so that, you know, your corner can come into [58:58] my locker room and watch them wrap my hands to make sure I'm not putting any plaster or [59:02] anything in there. [59:03] There's, there's nothing nefarious that, that, that time-honored tradition is sort of like [59:07] exchanging seconds so that they can make sure everything is on the level. [59:10] And he said, as I was sitting there getting my hands wrapped and GSP had Freddie Roach as [59:16] his corner man. [59:17] And he said, Freddie was standing there and he's not looking at all at them wrapping my [59:22] hands. [59:23] He starts, he's staring at the side of my face and he starts kind of moving further to [59:29] the side as if he's trying to see where does this guy's field of vision lose me? [59:35] Like, where does, where does it end? [59:37] And he was like, shit, like he kind of, they're onto me a little bit. [59:41] And he said he was very uncomfortable by how Freddie's just looking at him and like, sort [59:45] of just like, he's like, they, they know, they, they know that my vision is not as good [59:49] as I've been pretending it is. [59:50] And then sure enough, GFC kind of gets on that side and clips him. [59:54] Left hook. [59:54] Yeah, really. [59:56] Yeah. [59:56] Incredible. [59:57] That's an incredible, uh, tip it there on that. [1:00:00] By the way, has he ever like taken out his eye thing for you? [1:00:02] Like, cause the one time I was sitting with Michael Bisping in Houston, I was doing like [1:00:06] an interview with him and I don't think he'd ever done this. [1:00:08] And he's like, he just pops out the eye thing. [1:00:11] And I was like, oh my God, it was like, it was wild. [1:00:14] Then I'm like, okay, wait a minute. [1:00:15] You got to tell me then how did you convince the commissions, you know, like to basically [1:00:20] fight, you know, to fight under the, and he's like, never you mind, you know? [1:00:24] And he's like, he got kind of, you got kind of. [1:00:27] A magician doesn't reveal his tricks, you know? [1:00:30] I think he got into it in his documentaries. [1:00:32] He did, um, and he had, he had, uh, some kind of code with one of his coaches who would [1:00:38] somehow give him answers. [1:00:39] He'd be in the room as a doctor was asked something, so your mom would be feeding him [1:00:43] the information. [1:00:44] The whole thing, that, that whole thing more than any other stories we've heard just [1:00:50] completely gives the lie to the idea that these pre-fight medical examinations are there [1:00:55] to make sure that everybody is fit and ready to fight. [1:00:58] They don't want to find anything. [1:01:01] Everybody has a vested interest in making sure that these fights go on as scheduled. [1:01:05] The medical exams are essentially a cover your ass tool so that you can say, we did it in [1:01:11] case something terrible happens to somebody. [1:01:13] You can be like, well, we did our due diligence to try to make sure that they were good. [1:01:16] And it also makes it so that if they try to come back afterwards and say, Hey, I was fighting [1:01:21] hurt. [1:01:21] I had an injury into this fight then at times, and they have done this, they, they've, they've [1:01:26] done it to MMA fighters and they did it to Jake LaMotta, you know, 80 years ago, they'll [1:01:31] turn back and say, you put down on this medical form that you were fine. [1:01:35] So you lied to us. [1:01:36] And like, it's, if anything, it's the fighter. [1:01:38] Who's the only one who stands to get in trouble from that. [1:01:41] It's also been like the ultimate retort from the guys who think that Tom Asmol has elaborately [1:01:47] choreographed this injury, look, well, but Michael Bisping fought with one eye. [1:01:52] You're like, don't, that's not recommended. [1:01:54] You know, like that's a great idea. [1:01:56] Yeah. [1:01:57] Who, who was like, yes, because this man crazily fought with one eye. [1:02:02] What are you complaining about Asmol? [1:02:04] Absolute insanity. [1:02:05] Love the sport, of course. [1:02:07] And you know, boys, big old car this weekend and we're back at the world's favorite venue. [1:02:14] It is the meta apex. [1:02:15] It's not the apex. [1:02:16] It's the, they paid good money for it to be called the meta apex. [1:02:20] It's the meta apex. [1:02:22] I just saw a headline or something. [1:02:25] So enjoy that name while it's still there. [1:02:28] You know, I hope we got that cash up front for the naming rights on that. [1:02:35] Zuckerberg popping up at UFC events makes me cringe to the point that I want to disappear [1:02:40] with my own asshole. [1:02:42] I'm not going to, like, you know, he has created, he has created those gifts for us all through [1:02:46] the years, the passing of the things. [1:02:48] I mean, I just, I don't know. [1:02:50] It gives me the willies, as they say. [1:02:52] Anyone excited for this card this weekend? [1:02:55] Who's on it? [1:02:57] Aljamain Sterling is on it, Joe. [1:02:58] Oh, Aljo. [1:02:59] Yes, yes. [1:03:00] Somebody was asking me about this in my mailbag where they're asking, you know, Aljo's here [1:03:03] in the main event and they're just like, okay, you know, he's coming off that win over Brian [1:03:07] Ortega. [1:03:08] Is there enough time left? [1:03:10] Can he make a run at 145? [1:03:13] And my answer was no. [1:03:15] That's the short answer. [1:03:16] And not because, like, he's not a good fighter. [1:03:20] Like, clearly, he can still do a lot of the stuff that he does. [1:03:23] He still has, he still can beat a lot of those 145ers. [1:03:27] He also, though, he's, I believe, 36. [1:03:30] Body has been through the ringer and, you know, from wrestling to MMA. [1:03:36] He's got some physical damage that he's working around and through. [1:03:40] But also, I honestly think still the biggest impediment to him having a real run and making [1:03:48] a run at a 145 title is just going to be how the UFC sees him. [1:03:52] They have never really liked him. [1:03:54] They've never been eager to give him anything. [1:03:56] He would imagine how many wins he'd have to reel off at 145 or how many other people would [1:04:01] have to be unavailable before they reach down and be like, okay, Aljamain, especially if [1:04:07] they thought he might win. [1:04:08] And they did not seem to love it when he was bantamweight champion. [1:04:12] They kind of rushed him into that Sean O'Malley fight before he really wanted to. [1:04:16] They didn't seem eager to do anything with him there. [1:04:19] He went to featherweight in part because of that to get a fresh start. [1:04:24] It's hard to see, like, what would he have to do? [1:04:26] Especially they put him in this fight, which I think he's absolutely got a chance to win [1:04:30] this one, but you can just look at the ages of each guy in it and know what the UFC [1:04:36] is likely thinking here, right? [1:04:38] Well, Ben, luckily for us, the UFC is about the best fighting the best. [1:04:43] So all he needs to do is clean plan on the rankings and he'd be given a deserved opportunity. [1:04:48] He's right, Ben. [1:04:49] He's right. [1:04:51] That's why you're at the meta apex. [1:04:53] You know who's also at the meta apex? [1:04:55] The proving grounds known as the meta apex. [1:04:58] Mrs. Apex herself, Norma Dumont, will be a player. [1:05:00] Your favorite. [1:05:01] Yeah. [1:05:01] You know, Chuck was at the famed Dumont V. Ladd event. [1:05:06] I was there. [1:05:07] At what point do we start referring to the meta apex as the house that Norma built? [1:05:12] I like that a lot better. [1:05:14] I tell you what, it's fucking depressing watching these events at five o'clock in the [1:05:18] morning in Blanchett Sound. [1:05:19] Not a whisper outside. [1:05:21] And you're like, why have I done this again? [1:05:22] I made a deal with myself a long time ago that I won't do this. [1:05:25] Not a whisper outside or inside. [1:05:26] I mean, it's just, yeah. [1:05:28] At least when they're in a big arena in Winnipeg, you can draw some energy from the crowd. [1:05:33] I start like the ultimate warrior. [1:05:34] I'm just shaking my fucking mouth. [1:05:36] I'm like, grr. [1:05:36] Um, it's some good fights on it. [1:05:39] Davey Grant, my boy. [1:05:40] I mean, Davey Grant, the most underappreciated UK fighter of all time. [1:05:44] Still doing the fucking damn thing. [1:05:45] Was he trying to be a shepherd as well? [1:05:46] Or is he on some? [1:05:47] No, no. [1:05:48] Just always on the MMA thing. [1:05:50] You know what? [1:05:50] He was on tough smashes, I think, back in the day. [1:05:52] Was he really? [1:05:53] And he's still fighting. [1:05:54] He had a three-year layoff because of a knee injury. [1:05:57] And he still goes on these runs. [1:05:59] And they keep on putting him against these young guys who are like, oh, Davey Grant, what [1:06:04] age is this dude? [1:06:05] I'm going to fuck Davey Grant up. [1:06:07] And then they eat a load of fucking elbows most of the time anyway. [1:06:10] So I am looking forward to that. [1:06:11] But that's not a congested combat sports weekend. [1:06:16] But I'm sure, you know, you'll think of things to do. [1:06:19] Chuck, I couldn't help but see the result of the game last night. [1:06:22] You know, first Ariel's team suffered one. [1:06:25] And then I saw your boys, the Nuggets. [1:06:27] And I looked at the stat line. [1:06:29] My boy Jokic is still fucking wrecking people out there. [1:06:32] 15 rebounds, what, 30-odd points? [1:06:34] Come on. [1:06:34] What's going on? [1:06:35] Yeah, but it was a bad performance. [1:06:36] Like, he went out and shot the first, like, five shots. [1:06:38] They were all off. [1:06:39] Making Rudy Gobert look like a hero in this series right now, that's just disgusting, man. [1:06:45] Chuck, at what point do you pivot to being like, I'm just a Colorado Avalanche guy? [1:06:50] Because they're looking pretty good. [1:06:52] I'm already in that process. [1:06:53] I mean, I always am. [1:06:54] I am a Colorado Avalanche. [1:06:55] I love that team, too. [1:06:56] They are looking good. [1:06:58] But you know the problem is, it's the team that they would face next. [1:07:01] The Minnesota Wild have beat them a couple of times in the playoffs, and the Dallas Stars [1:07:04] absolutely own them in the playoffs. [1:07:06] That's where I'm like, yeah, we could beat the Kings, but I'm not sure what happens when [1:07:10] we get to the second round. [1:07:11] That's going to be the true hurdle, I think, for them. [1:07:13] I mean, they are the favorites. [1:07:15] Yes, I believe they're the top betting favorite to win the Stanley Cup this year. [1:07:20] Wow. [1:07:20] This is me trying to get you. [1:07:22] I know that maybe you've dabbled a little bit trying to look up some hockey, trying to [1:07:27] find how you can watch a hockey broadcast. [1:07:29] Oh, real ice? [1:07:30] Yeah. [1:07:31] But I got to tell you, watching the NHL playoffs is a completely different experience than watching [1:07:38] a regular season NHL game. [1:07:39] These guys are out there every night trying to take each other's damn heads off. [1:07:43] Okay. [1:07:44] It's crazy. [1:07:44] The hitting goes up to another level, seemingly after every whistle, every minor stoppage [1:07:49] in play, we're punching each other in the face. [1:07:51] The shit you can get away with doing to another human being during the NHL playoffs without [1:07:56] even being sat down for a couple of minutes in the penalty box is amazing. [1:08:00] And what's really insane to me is if you pay attention to what is required of the NHL referees [1:08:06] I saw you posted during the playoffs, there's no way they're getting paid enough to do this [1:08:11] because almost every single time they blow the whistle to stop the play, they got to get [1:08:16] between a couple of, it's like 500 pounds of professional hockey player on either side [1:08:22] of them. [1:08:22] And they got to throw their body in there, wrench these guys apart. [1:08:25] There are fists flying that they're catching strays. [1:08:28] All kinds of crazy shit is happening. [1:08:30] It's basically, you ever try to break up a dog fight? [1:08:35] Yes. [1:08:35] A dog ever? [1:08:36] They're basically doing that 16 to 20 times a night. [1:08:41] It's insane. [1:08:42] All of which is to say, highly recommend the NHL playoffs. [1:08:46] That's a viewing experience. [1:08:46] Which game, which game should I watch this weekend? [1:08:49] Any of them, Pete C. [1:08:51] Absolutely. [1:08:51] So pick, tell me which one and I'll find a way. [1:08:54] The Minnesota Stars series is good. [1:08:57] Yeah. [1:08:58] Well, Buffalo and Boston is a good one. [1:09:02] Buffalo is an exciting one just because they have been shit for a long time. [1:09:06] Did they win last night? [1:09:07] They did win last night. [1:09:08] They were 2-1 in that series. [1:09:10] Boston not going to go down easily though. [1:09:13] And the other one, for as long as it lasts, watching Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, natural [1:09:19] enemies, and the intensity of those games has been really, really high, even if they [1:09:25] haven't always been quite as competitive as maybe I would have liked. [1:09:29] The last one I watched was America and Canada, and I text you guys halfway through going, [1:09:33] these guys aren't fighting yet. [1:09:34] And they're like, oh, they're not going to fight. [1:09:36] And I was like, what? [1:09:38] And the playoffs too, generally speaking. [1:09:39] In the Olympics, it's frowned upon. [1:09:41] And Elaine was beside me and she was like, what's happening? [1:09:43] And I was like, I have no idea. [1:09:45] Nothing. [1:09:46] I can't explain anything. [1:09:47] One, I know what a goal is. [1:09:49] Other than that, fucking nothing. [1:09:51] They try to fight less, right? [1:09:52] Ben, in the playoffs, they try to because they don't want to be suspended or you don't [1:09:56] want to get into a situation. [1:09:58] The broadcast won't cut it though, right? [1:09:59] They will show me the boys throwing them. [1:10:01] They will. [1:10:02] The referees make a much, much more concerted effort to stop the fighting because that's [1:10:07] why it's such a hard job for the referees in the playoffs is that they are [1:10:10] trying to break up all these scrums before it escalates into guys throwing off the gloves [1:10:15] and fighting. [1:10:16] And sometimes they succeed. [1:10:17] Sometimes they don't. [1:10:18] Normally when they fight in the playoffs is when the game is pretty much decided. [1:10:22] But what's incredible about the NHL playoffs is that normally during the season, you play [1:10:28] a team once and then you move on. [1:10:29] You play somebody else the next night. [1:10:30] You might play them twice in a row, but that's kind of uncommon. [1:10:34] And in the playoffs, you play a seven game series, first person to win for these games. [1:10:39] And that is a long time to be lining up against the same guys each night. [1:10:44] It's a plenty of opportunity for resentments to build for, and it also makes it so that [1:10:50] part of the intense hitting of the game is because, Hey, look, we might lose game two, [1:10:55] but this series still got a ways to go. [1:10:58] So if we can reduce somebody's physical output by putting the body on him in game two, you [1:11:03] know, if we can just, if we can make them start worrying a little bit more about the [1:11:08] violence coming their way in game two, maybe it pays off in game five or six. [1:11:12] And so like, it's just a, the game completely changes in the playoffs because of the way [1:11:17] these series work. [1:11:18] And you know, the players inside and out by that point, the greatest thing is you see [1:11:21] like a seven game series goes to overtime. [1:11:23] There's all this tension, it's crazy sport that way. [1:11:26] And then they line up in a big line at the end and they all shake hands like gentlemen. [1:11:29] It's a, that's a beautiful thing. [1:11:31] They shake hands like gentlemen, except some of the exchanges every once in a while. [1:11:34] And you know, when the series is over is when they'll shake hands. [1:11:37] And sometimes you can see in the handshake lineup, there's a little bit of, I'm going [1:11:41] to fucking kill you next year. [1:11:43] You should retire in the off season, because if you come back next year, I'm going to fucking [1:11:47] kill you. [1:11:48] The average red wings used to have a bad, I mean, it was crazy. [1:11:51] They'd fight the goalie would fight everything. [1:11:52] But that, that's the kind of handshake line you would see with those guys. [1:11:56] It was fun. [1:11:57] I'll be tuning in for it all the handshakes and everything. [1:11:59] And you know what? [1:12:00] I'm sure Elaine is going to be ecstatic to say, oh, another American sport where you [1:12:06] just stay up all night and then complain. [1:12:08] Oh, that's the most inconvenient times. [1:12:09] And then when I have a phone call at 2 p.m., you're like, I'm trying to sleep here. [1:12:18] Well, lads, that was a beautiful education. [1:12:20] So much education today from John S. Nash. [1:12:22] Check him out. [1:12:23] Hang out the face, Substack. [1:12:24] He does a great podcast with Steffi. [1:12:26] It's really, really good. [1:12:27] He is the guy. [1:12:28] He is the authority on all things combat sports. [1:12:31] I felt like he could have kept talking for another two hours, man. [1:12:33] That's his wheelhouse, isn't it? [1:12:34] He's so good. [1:12:35] He's so fucking good. [1:12:36] And he has been for so, so long. [1:12:38] There's nowhere else to go. [1:12:40] Class action. [1:12:41] This, obviously, this reform act, he is the man to speak to. [1:12:44] And if there is any big developments, we will have him on again. [1:12:47] But before we go, is there any super chats, Andy? [1:12:52] Nothing today? [1:12:53] Wow. [1:12:53] We don't even get to hear the music today. [1:12:56] I mean, do you know what, Andy? [1:12:57] This community has let us out. [1:12:59] At least we got the music. [1:13:03] Yeah, still nothing. [1:13:04] Buzzkill. [1:13:05] Thanks, guys. [1:13:06] Love yous very much. [1:13:08] Thank you to Oscar Lozap. [1:13:09] Thank you to Andy. [1:13:10] Stepping in for Jordan, who's on vacation for how long now? [1:13:13] I mean, fucking hell. [1:13:15] Thank you to Chuck. [1:13:16] Ben and all. [1:13:16] Thank you to Ben, folks. [1:13:17] I don't know if I thanked Oscar Lozap already. [1:13:19] However, I love you all. [1:13:21] We will see you next week. [1:13:22] I'll watch Ice Hockey, and we'll talk about it then. [1:13:25] Lots of love. [1:13:26] Mwah.