7 Shocking Moments in Charlie Kirk Murder Case Showdown

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: And then Lance replies, you weren't the one who did it right. And Tyler says, I am, I'm sorry. [00:00:07] Jesse Weber: Tyler Robinson, the young man accused of assassinating Charlie Kirk at a Utah college, sat pretty quietly in a courtroom this week as prosecutors laid out critical pieces of alleged evidence against him at a very important preliminary hearing. And if this case goes to trial, he's staring down the death penalty. [00:00:27] Speaker 3: He started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it. [00:00:31] Jesse Weber: From testimony from Robinson's alleged lover to details about those engravings found on bullet casings, a demand from Charlie Kirk's widow, DNA evidence, all of this, we are going to cover it all. We're going to analyze some of the biggest moments from the days long hearings and ask the question, is it enough for this case to move forward towards trial? And has enough been shown to dispel potential conspiracy theories? Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. This is one of the most high profile cases in the country right now. A judge is hearing evidence against Tyler Robinson, the 23-year-old accused of shooting conservative activist Charlie Kirk in the neck, killing him. This happened last September at Utah Valley University, where Kirk was hosting an event for his organization, Turning Point USA. And now all this time later, months later, we are finally getting a glimpse at some of the evidence against Robinson as part of a days-long preliminary hearing. And this is where the judge will decide whether there is enough there, whether there is sufficient evidence, whether there is probable cause to support the charges to take Robinson to trial. Because prosecutors have announced that he will face the death penalty if he's convicted. And simultaneously, there is something else happening that I want to keep a careful eye on. Transparency is enough being shown to the media, to the public, to dispel all of those conspiracy theories out there about who killed Charlie Kirk. You know exactly what I'm talking about, what you're seeing online. Now, in a minute, I'm going to bring on attorney Rich Schoenstein. He's going to help me break down some of the biggest moments from this prelim. But I've got to quickly get you caught up on how we even got here. Okay, so Charlie Kirk was sitting underneath this white TP USA tent on September 10, 2025, in a large open area of the Utah Valley campus in Orem. Thousands of people had gathered to hear him debate people in the crowd about, you know, politics, social issues. But during one of those questions, a gunshot rang out. Gunshot hit Kirk, sparked pandemonium. You know the videos. I'm sure you've seen them. He was rushed to a hospital. He didn't survive. He left behind his wife, Erica Kirk, and two children. In the panic, after that shot rang out, officers and security personnel, they clamored to figure out where this shot had come from, if anyone else was injured, whether the shooter was still on the campus. And during this week's preliminary hearing, a former Utah Valley University police officer, Christopher Badwick, testified about what he saw. [00:03:10] Speaker 4: On that day, I observed Charlie going back, doing some meet and greet with some people, getting some foes taken. He then came underneath the hall flags and went to his tent, and he was there answering questions and talking to individuals that would ask him questions. [00:03:28] Speaker 5: The tent you're referring to, is that the tent that we see when it was set up in the courtyard? [00:03:33] Speaker 4: Yeah, that white square tent. [00:03:34] Speaker 5: The white top. [00:03:35] Speaker 4: Yes, he was under that. [00:03:38] Speaker 5: Fast forward to about 1220 or so, so a little bit after noon, the noon hour. What happened? What did you see and what did you hear? [00:03:47] Speaker 4: I heard an individual talking to Charlie, and I happened to kind of glance over the edge of the railing about that time. I could see the right side of Charlie's shoulder, so not his whole body because he was underneath the tent, so I could only see probably the right side of his body. He was answering a question, the kid asked him a question, and then I heard a shot fired. [00:04:09] Speaker 5: Do you know what time that was? [00:04:11] Speaker 4: Yes. [00:04:11] Speaker 5: What time was that? [00:04:12] Speaker 4: 1223. [00:04:15] Speaker 5: What did you see? [00:04:16] Speaker 4: At that moment, I saw him lean to the left, so I... [00:04:20] Speaker 5: When you say him, you see... Charlie. [00:04:22] Speaker 4: Charlie. So I saw him go to the left because I could no longer see the right side of his body, so he went further underneath the tent to the north side of the tent, so left. [00:04:32] Speaker 5: Okay. Can you describe the reaction of others that were there? [00:04:36] Speaker 4: Yeah, so then everybody started getting up and starting to run in more of a chaos kind of situation. At that moment, I recognized it as gunfire. I left my post, which was right there on the south end of the hall of flags. I proceeded to, right where the fugal and the hall of flags meet, there's some outside stairs that I was starting to run down. As I was trying to get down to the bottom of the stairs, people were running up, people were laying down on the steps. I'm trying to jump over people to get to the bottom of the stairs so I can help stop an individual that was probably shooting. [00:05:12] Speaker 5: What happened next? [00:05:15] Speaker 4: By the time I got to the bottom of the stairs, I was informed on the radio that we had a shooter in custody. So I thought at that moment, I was like, oh, that was kind of fast. Obviously, it was close range probably because we had an individual in custody. Another officer came on and said we had an individual in custody. So I decided to, since the threat is gone, now I can assess for anybody that's injured and start looking for any medical needs that's needed at that moment. [00:05:40] Jesse Weber: Let me say something real quick. Running a business is tough enough, right? Why make it harder doing all these things manually, relying on dozens of apps that don't talk to each other, right? That's where our sponsor Odoo comes in. Odoo is an all-in-one business management platform with a full suite of integrated apps that seamlessly connect all of your operations, from sales and accounting to manufacturing, shipping. 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One of them was a man in his 70s named George Zinn, who allegedly yelled that he'd shot Kirk, was arrested. It was announced that a second person was also detained, but soon released. And Officer Bagley testified that when he went to the top of this building overlooking the amphitheater, he realized the shooting may have actually been the work of a sniper. [00:07:12] Speaker 4: To me, when I got up there and I could see the disturbance of gravel, to me, it looks like a sniper pad, a person that has been laying in a prone position, and you've got markings of elbows, knees, and feet to where somebody was in the line of sight of where Charlie's tent was. Then I realized that we probably didn't have our shooter in custody from that moment. I asked dispatcher to get on the camera system and to see if anybody was on top of the low-speed building during the time of the incident. [00:07:42] Jesse Weber: Now, like at a trial, this is one of the advantages of a preliminary hearing, as opposed to, you know, a grand jury, which can indict, the defense has the opportunity to question, to cross-examine the prosecution's witnesses. And one of Robinson's defense attorneys asked, questioned Officer Bagley about the department's preparedness leading up to the turning point event. [00:08:03] Speaker 6: And do you know how many UVU officers you guys employ normally? [00:08:12] Speaker 4: Employed, there was 15. [00:08:13] Speaker 6: And do you know how many were assigned to cover that event that day? [00:08:17] Speaker 4: That were assigned to cover it? There was six of us that were, there was a patrol one and then five others that were there with the chief. [00:08:23] Speaker 6: Did you all have an idea there were going to be thousands and thousands of people there? Or was that a surprise to you? [00:08:29] Speaker 4: Had an idea. [00:08:30] Speaker 6: And you only had five officers? [00:08:33] Speaker 4: Six, yes. [00:08:34] Speaker 6: Six, I'm sorry. I'm counting you, I was thinking. And of those six officers, are you all armed? Do you carry weapons? [00:08:43] Speaker 4: Yes. [00:08:44] Speaker 6: What type of weapons do you carry? [00:08:46] Speaker 4: Glocks, pistols. [00:08:47] Speaker 6: And was there any use on campus of, I think they're called magnetometers, but the machines you walk through at TSA in the airport where it checks to see if you're carrying anything metal, what we all had to go through to get in the courtroom, were there any machines like that set up or being used on campus that day? [00:09:11] Speaker 4: No. [00:09:12] Speaker 6: And as far as you know, were there any drones that were flying above campus that day? [00:09:20] Speaker 4: Not that I know of. [00:09:23] Speaker 6: And did anyone ever talk to you about covering anything near or on top of or in the low C building? Were you ever assigned that area before the shooting? [00:09:34] Speaker 4: No. [00:09:35] Speaker 6: Do you know who was? [00:09:36] Speaker 4: I don't. [00:09:38] Speaker 6: And when you got up to the roof that afternoon, was anybody around that was law enforcement? [00:09:46] Speaker 4: No. [00:09:46] Speaker 6: Nobody on the roof? No. Nobody on the stairway? No. Nobody on the walkway? [00:09:52] Speaker 4: No. [00:09:53] Speaker 6: Okay. And in the state of Utah, is a campus a gun-free zone? Are students allowed to have guns on campus? [00:10:06] Speaker 4: It's an open-carry state, so yes. [00:10:08] Speaker 6: And did you see anybody that was armed that day other than law enforcement? [00:10:16] Speaker 4: I did not see. [00:10:26] Speaker 6: Were you aware of whether Mr. Kirk had his own security team present there with him? Yes. Did you communicate with any of those people? [00:10:35] Speaker 4: I saw one individual that was on top of the hall flags right next to me, yes. [00:10:39] Speaker 6: Okay. And that was before the shooting? [00:10:41] Speaker 4: Yes. And then I saw several down in the crowds and down by him, yes. [00:10:44] Speaker 6: And were you aware of whether that person was armed either? [00:10:48] Jesse Weber: I was aware he was armed. [00:10:49] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:50] Jesse Weber: Makes me wonder, are they going to say it was such a chaotic event? Do we really know what was going on? In the hours after the shooting, law enforcement allegedly found this bolt action hunting rifle wrapped in a towel in a wooded area, as well as these cartridge cases that were reportedly engraved with words that were connected to memes and pop culture. It was very, very, very specific. And the FBI announced that it was using facial recognition to try to track down the shooter. But when that proved to be unsuccessful, investigators then released surveillance photos of a person that they now claim is Tyler Robinson. And in around 36 hours after Kirk was killed, Robinson reportedly turned himself in. He was indicted on seven counts, the most serious of which is aggravated murder. Several of the counts also have aggravating factors attached, like alleged targeting and committing a violent offense in the presence of a child. Now, importantly, Robinson has not entered a plea. Okay. So to talk about some of the biggest moments of the preliminary hearing and what we can expect next, I want to bring on litigator Rich Schoenstein, good friend of the show, good friend of mine. Rich, I'm so happy to have you on because there's so many things I want to talk about. You know, it's not just I mentioned that the stop, not just if there's going to be enough evidence for this case to move forward towards trial, but also has enough been shown to quiet, dispel the conspiracy theories out there? Because there have been a lot of issues, particularly brought up by Charlie Kirk's family, Erica Kirk, about transparency. So first, I just want to go into this where we sit right now. We're recording this Friday morning. There isn't a decision from the judge yet. I believe there's even more testimony that's going to happen. But having said it, if you were sitting right now, do you think the prosecution has presented sufficient evidence at this point for the case to move forward towards trial? [00:12:42] Speaker 7: Yes, no doubt. I have no doubt on that. I think 100% this case is going to trial. [00:12:48] Jesse Weber: What stands out to you? What are the pieces of evidence that you say, my gosh, I mean, there is sufficient probable cause to support these charges? [00:12:56] Speaker 7: Multiple alleged confessions. [00:12:59] Jesse Weber: Those are the ones. [00:13:00] Speaker 7: Tracking of his whereabouts in a manner that seems consistent with him having been in the area, some DNA evidence. But really, multiple alleged confessions would get you probable cause. [00:13:14] Jesse Weber: And I want to get to that in a minute when we talk about Lance Twiggs, but the DNA I find to be fascinating. You know, they talk about how there is DNA linking him on the towel, on the trigger of the bolt-action rifle, right? Potentially the casings. Now, you hear the defense fighting back about that. They say, well, wait a minute. You know, it's not definitively him. Could it be touch DNA? They may have something to say, well, why is Lance Twiggs' DNA also on the towel? You're getting a semblance also of what the defense may argue if this goes to trial, right? What do you make of those counterarguments regarding the DNA? [00:13:54] Speaker 7: So I think those are good arguments at trial. If this was a DNA-only case, I think it might be a bit of an uphill battle. I think the defense would be in it at trial. I still think there'd be probable cause, but I think the defense could have something to say about that and cast enough reasonable doubt that the DNA gets you there to sort of deal with that part of the case. But then there's the rest of the evidence. [00:14:21] Jesse Weber: Yeah, there's the rest of the evidence. And again, just something to make clear, this is a much lower standard. This is a much lower standard by which the court has to find, is there sufficient probable cause to move forward? It's not beyond the reasonable doubt. It's much, much lower. And I want to ask you one other thing that I thought was interesting. The bullet casings that were apparently found at this crime scene had engravings. And these were specific messages. And they have linked it or potentially linked it to this Dremel tool that was apparently found at Tyler Robinson's home. They also apparently found the same kind of ammunition at the shooting scene in his home. I actually spoke to Joseph Scott Morgan about that, and he thinks that there's going to be a specific expert to match the engravings to handwriting, which I think is really interesting. But that's something I don't even know if it's getting that much attention, right? The engravings on the casings on top of, like you said, the surveillance, the DNA, the potential confessions. I thought that was interesting, too. [00:15:18] Speaker 7: It is interesting, and it's not quite – it doesn't have quite the oomph of the confession or the DNA evidence, so it doesn't get the same attention. But certainly, the circumstantial evidence, if you just look at it as circumstantial evidence, there were engravings on the casings, and then you found in his apartment similar casings and engraving equipment, that circumstantial evidence that coupled with some other evidence could get you to probable cause. Now, if Joseph Scott Morgan, who you and I both know and trust, is right about the evidence at trial, maybe they can match that up even more clearly, and that would help meet the burden of proof at trial. [00:15:58] Jesse Weber: One of the big points of conversation from this past week is – because we kind of knew what the evidence was going to be, but now we're seeing it in a preliminary hearing – was, is the defense really going to – is, you know, Tyler Robinson going to want to take this to trial, right? Like, you're starting to see what the defense's arguments are. My opinion, it's like, oh, it was a chaotic scene. How do you know he's definitively the shooter? They arrested someone else at one point. The surveillance footage looks a little grainy. DNA is questionable. Arguments, arguments to make a trial. But are they looking at this, and are they going to have an honest conversation with Tyler Robinson? Listen, your best bet right now, you plead guilty. We try to take the death penalty off the table. Is that what you think is going to happen after – and I don't know when the judge will come back with a decision on if this goes forward to trial. It might actually take a little bit because I think there's a briefing schedule, too. But what do you think? [00:16:48] Speaker 7: Yeah, I think they're doing briefing and argument in September, so you're not going to get a decision probably until October. I think there's a pretty good chance there'll be a plea negotiation. We've talked about this before. There's always a plea negotiation. And the question to me is, are the prosecutors willing to take the death penalty off the table in exchange for a guilty plea? [00:17:09] Jesse Weber: You think they are? [00:17:09] Speaker 7: You think they would in this case? I don't know, because this case is so politically charged. There's that whole element of it that takes it out of the ordinary. In a case like this, this is a single murder case by a young person. So to me, it is the kind of case where you would take the death penalty off the table if you could get a guilty plea and a life prison sentence. That would seem to me to be a fair exchange. It would save you the cost and burden and risk of a trial. It would save the family from having to go through all that again. It would get finality. It would get inadequate punishment. And I'm not a death penalty person anyway. I don't love the death penalty anyway, so I'm a little bit jaded by that. But to me, that would be a fair exchange. I just don't know, because of the circumstances of this case, because of everything behind the scenes, if that's something the prosecutors are willing to do. If they say no, we're going to ask the jury for the death penalty, then I don't think his defense team has any choice but to try to defend. [00:18:20] Jesse Weber: Yeah, and look, a couple of things that I think about that. One, as much as this, you know, what happened to Charlie Kirk is absolutely heinous. And you can understand why prosecutors want to throw the book at who they believe did this. You know, sparing the family from the pain of this. Look, even this four or five day preliminary hearing has been incredibly difficult for the family. The judge winced when seeing the shooting of Charlie Kirk. You want to put jurors through that and have to see all that again? It's a consideration. Now, even if this goes forward to trial, and even if you get a death qualified jury, it doesn't necessarily mean they would vote in favor of the death penalty. I always look at the, you know, the Parkland school shooter case. That was a jury with evidence was really bad. And they still said, you know, life in prison. But I do want to talk about arguably one of the most impactful parts of this whole hearing. Thursday, the court, the judge, saw this recorded deposition of Lance Twiggs. This is Robinson's romantic partner. Now, Twiggs reportedly confirmed to officials that he sometimes went by the name Luna with certain friends and associates, including Robinson. And the Utah State Bureau of Investigation agent, Brian Davis, testified about these two interviews that Twiggs did with officials. Take a look. [00:19:35] Speaker 8: Are you familiar with an individual named Lance Twiggs? [00:19:38] Speaker 1: Yes, I am. [00:19:40] Speaker 8: And who is he in, in regards to this investigation? [00:19:45] Speaker 1: He's the roommate of Tyler Robinson. [00:19:50] Speaker 8: Was he interviewed as part of this investigation? [00:19:52] Speaker 1: He was. [00:19:53] Speaker 8: How many times? [00:19:54] Speaker 1: Two times. [00:19:55] Speaker 8: When was the first time? [00:19:57] Speaker 1: The first time was the early morning hours of September 12th. And that occurred at St. George Police Department. [00:20:03] Speaker 8: Do you know if his phone was taken from him? [00:20:08] Speaker 1: It was. [00:20:10] Speaker 8: When did that happen? [00:20:11] Speaker 1: So it was during that interview with FBI at St. George Police Department. They conducted the interview of him. And then he provided his phone. And he did it voluntarily also, provided it to those agents. [00:20:25] Speaker 8: And that would have been on September 12th, 2025? [00:20:28] Speaker 1: Correct. [00:20:29] Speaker 8: You mentioned a second interview of Mr. Twiggs? Okay, so for any statements made during the interview, they're given immunity for that, but they're not generally prohibited from being potentially prosecuted outside of that interview. Is that fair? [00:20:43] Speaker 1: That's my understanding, yes. [00:20:47] Speaker 8: And there was a lot of back and forth about whether this deposition video would even be played, whether parts of it would be cut out, redacted. And in fact, members of Charlie Kirk's family specifically requested that the full interview be shown in open court. [00:21:04] Jesse Weber: They were represented by their own attorney in this case, but Judge Tony Graff ruled against that motion. Judge Tony Graff ruled against that motion. [00:21:23] Speaker 9: I've been very hesitant to speak up at these proceedings. We understand it's the state, the defense, and the judge, you're all doing your job. But I feel as if we need to. I want to be clear as to what the Kirk's family's position is on all of this. The Kirk family believes strongly that if the evidence is being admitted in this preliminary hearing, it should be made public for the world to see. No redactions. This court has tools at its disposal to make sure the defendant receives a fair trial. You'll use them if you find that you need to. That's it, Your Honor. To not be transparent here, to not be open, to not let the world see what happened will create doubt and distrust in the judicial system. And that's not what anybody wants. That's not what any of us believe should happen here. And we'd ask the court to consider the position of the family in making its ultimate decision. [00:22:18] Speaker 10: Part of the reason in responding to the media, and it's an important point, and to the representative for, victim representative Erica Kirk, is I recognize the importance of transparency. And it is a fine line, I'm balancing all these competing rules, constitutional rights, as well as transparency, and sometimes it is an imperfect balancing act. But I'm trying to act in the interest of justice in making this balancing act, and for transparency to actually be transparent. [00:22:57] Jesse Weber: I'm trying to act, and I'm trying to act, and I'm trying to act, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as well as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial. I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial. I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial, and I'm trying to act as a fair trial. So two parts to my question. One, what do you make of this decision by the judge in showing the Lance Twig's video? And two, do you feel, from everything you've seen so far, that enough has been shown to potentially dispel the conspiracy theories out there? [00:24:00] Speaker 7: Those are both great questions, so let's start with the first one. I was a little surprised. This Lance Twig interview was much more substantive than I thought it was going to be. I thought the purpose of this was going to be to authenticate text messages where Tyler Robinson allegedly confessed to the crime. But this was substantive. This was about their relationship. This was about what did Tyler Robinson do this day. This was about him allegedly confessing. It was a very substantive testimony. And, of course, at trial, you could never present it like that. You could never show a video of a witness testifying. You have to bring him in and put him on the stand, and he has to be subject to cross-examination. And that's what the defense said here. The defense said, if they want to put Lance Twig on the stand, they ought to bring him in and put him on the stand. And the judge said, no, it's only a preliminary hearing. We're only establishing probable cause. They can do it this way. And I was a little uncomfortable with that because, you know, every headline this morning says, Tyler Robinson confessed to murder. That's what New York Times, everybody else. Those are the headlines now. This was the defense's point. You let the guy go on the stand by pre-recorded video testimony, not subject to cross-examination. And now it's been picked up by the world and treated as if it is, you know, solid evidence. We didn't even have a chance to cross-examine the guy. [00:25:35] Jesse Weber: Well, well, I mean, well, I'll also push back because I remember the screenshots from the video of the phone, right, where he's showing the phone of the conversation that he purportedly had with Tyler Robinson. And in those messages, Tyler Robinson is allegedly confessing. So even despite what he testified to, despite what he said in that interview, and I'm going to play a bit of it right now, you can look at this and say, that's the confession. That's the confession, the text messages. [00:26:02] Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that what the prosecution is going to argue here is he confessed multiple times in multiple ways. And that's what is really going to buttress the confessions. This is not just some off comment he made. Right. This is something repeatedly. In fact, in the exchange he has on Discord, he's like, no, guys, it really was me. I'm sorry. He's arguing with them. [00:26:26] Jesse Weber: Like even when it was like a conversation like this, you're joking, right? This is it. No, I did it. I'm sorry. I'll tell you what, Rich, put that to the side about the conspiracy theory, because I just want to play a little of his testimony. And let's just keep this question in mind about whether enough has been shown to dispel potential conspiracy theories. So this is some of what Tiggs had to say in that recorded interview. Take a listen. [00:26:48] Speaker 11: Do you know Tyler Robinson? Yes, I do. Yeah, I do. And this is the same Tyler Robinson that's been charged with the shooting of Charlie Kirk. Yes. And would you say when you first met Tyler? [00:27:03] Speaker 3: I think it was 2023. I've known him longer than that, though. That was, I think, the first time I met him in person. Okay. [00:27:10] Speaker 11: And will you describe your relationship with Tyler when you first met him anyway? [00:27:22] Speaker 3: When I first met him, I didn't know him super well. He was just a new roommate. So I knew he knew my friend group and I knew he liked playing games. But that's about it when we first, like when he first moved in. Okay. [00:27:39] Speaker 11: Okay. And then at some point your relationship progressed to something more than for myself, right? Mm-hmm. When was that? [00:27:46] Speaker 3: I think we started dating two or three months after he moved in. [00:27:50] Speaker 11: Okay. What time did you get up on September 10th? [00:27:54] Speaker 3: Probably like 12:00 to 1:00 PM. You didn't have to work that day? No. [00:28:00] Speaker 11: And did you hear from Tyler? Did he call or text you before then? [00:28:05] Speaker 3: No, he sent that message in the group chat I mentioned. But he didn't message me directly at all that day. [00:28:12] Speaker 11: Okay. When did you first hear from him on September 10th? [00:28:16] Speaker 3: It was at 11:00 o'clock with that, like, automated message. Okay. 11:00 PM? [00:28:21] Speaker 11: Yeah. He asks you here, remember how I was engraving bullets? Was he engraving bullets before this? [00:28:26] Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't remember exactly when, but he had said he was planning to go hunting with his family. I remember if we had, like, a Dremel to, because he said he wanted to create messages on bullets. And I just told him where Dremel was and I told him to make sure he doesn't, like, set off a bullet on accident in the house. But I didn't really think about it until then. [00:28:54] Speaker 11: How long before September 10th was this that he asked about the Dremel? [00:29:00] Speaker 3: I don't remember, because he'd been talking about the hunting/camping trip for a couple months. But I don't remember when he was specifically asking to engrave the bullets. [00:29:16] Speaker 11: When did you first see him on September 11th? So this is the day after the shooting? [00:29:20] Speaker 3: Yeah. I saw him when I woke up. Um, like I said, he was, uh, up and around doing a lot of stuff around the house. Um, and then I, uh, I think I saw him after that message where I said I'll come home and say I'm doing laundry. Because I didn't want him going to my parents' house right then when he said there was probably cops outside. So I went back home and it was just him there and I said bye to him and then he drove off. So I just went back to my parents' house. [00:29:53] Speaker 11: So he acted erratically, um, was he pacing? Was he just sitting down, relaxing? No, he was, he was, uh, walking around a lot. Right, and that's within the home? Mm-hmm. Um, and did he talk about what he had done? [00:30:10] Speaker 3: Uh, didn't go into detail. He just, I just asked him in person if what he said was true the night before and he said it was. Uh, I started crying a little bit and said he wishes he hadn't done it. Uh, and then kept going around and just doing stuff, I think, to keep himself busy or distracted or something. Okay. Did he talk about what he was going to do next? And eventually he said that he would talk to his parents or turn himself over. Okay. [00:30:44] Speaker 11: And, uh, when you left, was that how you went, you left understanding that he was going to turn himself in or go to his parents' house? [00:30:51] Speaker 3: Yeah, and I didn't really want to be at our apartment while any of that was happening, regardless of what went down. [00:30:58] Speaker 11: Um, did you and he ever talk about politics? [00:31:01] Speaker 3: Um, he did more than me. Uh, I, I didn't really still don't really keep up with politics very much. Uh, he'd usually talk about stuff he heard on the radio on his drive to work and like their work car since it sounds like, uh, their whole crew went in the same car most of the time. But, uh, I wouldn't say super consistently cause it wasn't a topic I really contributed much on. How about Charlie Kirk? Did you ever talk about Charlie Kirk? I personally had never heard him talk about Charlie Kirk before specifically. Okay. [00:31:37] Speaker 11: Um, how about, um, political issues? So did you ever talk about gender identity issues and LGBTQ rights? [00:31:48] Speaker 3: Uh, no, not, not really. Um, uh, usually if he did talk about politics stuff, it was, uh, relating to Trump or current like policies being, uh, like issued or voted, voted on. [00:32:05] Jesse Weber: Now, according to a report from Fox news twigs was at one point under FBI protection and he has since left the state of Utah. [00:32:13] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:32:13] Jesse Weber: Give you an idea. He was also granted by the way, use immunity rich. So use immunity. He can't be prosecuted for what he said in that interview. I guess he needed to be granted that or protected that way because there was a period of time when he didn't come forward. Right. With information once he got it. Yeah. He could take the fifth. [00:32:33] Speaker 7: He could take the fifth and not say anything. So they gave him use immunity so that he, they can't use the testimony he gave, but he hasn't been given transactional immunity. I do get the sense that the authorities don't view him as having been a co-conspirator or has having aided and abetted or as having culpability here because of the way that they've treated this entire thing. So they allowed this video to be played. It was played in open court. And then you had sort of the strange interplay where the judge is saying some parts of it have to remain under seal. And the victim's family is saying, no, we want to see the whole thing. And I understand their feelings in that regard. And I understand this is an extremely difficult situation for them, but that's not who really gets to make the decisions about what evidence is shown at trial and what isn't. [00:33:31] Jesse Weber: I have to tell you, I don't think I've ever seen, and I'm not saying wrong or right. I just don't think I've ever actually seen a victim's families, like have an attorney go in court and make the argument, show everything, show everything to the media, show everything to the world. Doesn't, I mean, that says something about what they're going through. It says something about this case that they needed to do that. [00:33:55] Speaker 7: We were saying a few minutes ago that one of the benefits of a plea deal would be to spare the victim's family going through a trial. But they seem to want it all out there in the open when maybe maybe they wanted the trial, you know, which which is different than some. But so I'll focus for a second on your ultimate question, which is, is this enough to dispel conspiracy theories? And my answer is going to be no, because conspiracy theories sell. So there's going to be some joker on the Internet who says what really happened is Charlie Kirk was attacked in the basement by a dog. And it's all a conspiracy to set up this guy. There's going to be people who still say the investigation wasn't thorough enough. There had to be other people involved. [00:34:46] Jesse Weber: There are still going to be people out there pushing those narratives a hundred percent. But those who try to be credible, those who say, I'm looking at this every day. He X, Y, Z, I think they're the things missing from what I'm seeing so far or points to an alternative suspect or points to him of falsely confessing. Going back to this, Agent Davis read through these purported text messages between Twiggs and Robinson after the shooting. And according to Fox News, by the way, Erica Kirk could be heard crying in the gallery. Let me play that. [00:35:18] Speaker 8: If you could start, if you could read a little more than halfway down where it begins Wednesday, 11:00 p.m., will you start reading underneath that? [00:35:31] Speaker 1: Yes. So this would have been from Tyler. It says drop what you're doing, look under your keyboard. And I apologize. [00:35:39] Speaker 8: Let me stop you there. How do you know that that message would have been from Tyler Robinson? [00:35:44] Speaker 1: That's just, so any of the messages in gray would be from Tyler. And the message in blue would be from Lance. It's just the way the iPhone distinguishes the messages. And also Lance, Lance in his interview also acknowledges that, who was saying what. [00:36:01] Speaker 8: And up at the top, who do we see that this thread is between? Tyler. [00:36:07] Speaker 1: All right. [00:36:08] Speaker ?: Sorry to interrupt you. [00:36:09] Speaker 8: So, so read that again, starting from look under the keyboard. [00:36:14] Speaker 1: So, so after that, then Lance responds. He says, what? And then he says, you're joking, right? And then Tyler says, I tried to delete that. [00:36:26] Speaker 8: Okay. If we could scroll down to page two. And if you can continue reading along. [00:36:36] Speaker 1: Okay. And Tyler says, I'm still okay, my love. But I'm stuck in Orem for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home. But gotta grab my rifle still. To be honest, I had hoped to keep this secret until I died of old age. I'm sorry to involve you. And then Lance replies, you weren't the one who did it right. And Tyler says, I am. I'm sorry. Lance says, I thought they caught the person. And then Tyler says, no, they grabbed some crazy old dude and interrogated someone in similar clothing. I had planned to grab my rifle from the drop point shortly after. But most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet almost enough to get out. But there's one vehicle lingering. [00:37:22] Speaker 8: If we could scroll down to page three. Continue reading. [00:37:29] Speaker 1: Lance says, why? And Tyler says, why did I do it? And Lance says, yeah. Tyler says, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they have moved on. I haven't seen anything in the news about them finding it. We'll update you shortly. Or shortly. We'll update you by midnight. And then Lance says, all right. Stay safe. How long have you been planning this? [00:38:00] Speaker 8: Scroll down a little bit, please, Kimberly. Okay. [00:38:04] Speaker 1: And Tyler replies, a bit over a week, I believe. I can get close to it. But there is a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot. But I don't want to chance it. [00:38:15] Speaker 8: We can scroll down to page four and continue reading about halfway down. About halfway down. I'll stop you about halfway down. [00:38:25] Speaker 1: This is while they were a spot. But I don't want to chance it while they were parked there. If they'd found it, I imagine there would be more commotion. Again, I'm sorry for roping you into all of this. You shouldn't have to worry about this. And Lance replies, does anyone else know? Tyler says, not to my knowledge. [00:38:44] Speaker 8: All right, I'll stop you there. [00:38:45] Speaker 1: Okay, so Lance says, was your change of clothes there or was that also gone? Or did you bring those with you originally? Anyway, you could replace the gun or would he notice? Then Tyler says, only thing I left was the rifle wrapped in a towel. I'll bet that canine sniffed it out. A little snitchy. Replace it, unlikely. I don't fully know what the gun was. Because it was old and Gramps did some modifying. There was a four-digit serial on it. God only knows who it's registered to. Hopefully, some dead guy who gave it to Grandpa. And he continues, remember how I was engraving bullets. The messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge UWU on Fox News, I might have a stroke. [00:39:36] Speaker 8: And then continue, I'll stop you in a moment. [00:39:40] Speaker 1: He says, all right, I'm going to have to leave it. That really sucks. Let me stop you there. [00:39:45] Speaker 8: And then if we could go on to the next page, page nine. And do you see the first blue message we see on page nine? Can you start there? [00:39:58] Speaker 1: Yes. So Lance says, do you need it for hunting? And Tyler says, no, my dad wanted to use it, to use a high caliber for the rifle hunt. Judging from today, I say Gramps gun does just fine, IDK. I think that was a 2K scope. Lance says, geez. And then Tyler says, OMW home 3.5 hours. Lance says, drive safe. And then Tyler says, delete this exchange. And I'll stop you right there. [00:40:32] Speaker 8: Rich. [00:40:33] Jesse Weber: Okay. Full picture here. You said, of course, there'll be jokers who capitalize it. Of course. 100%. But is there anything from what you're seeing that someone can make a legitimate, reasonable argument? Wait a minute. There's something missing here. There's something a little shady here. There's something I'm not seeing here. There's some, I think, you know, there's evidence someone else did it. There's someone else directing Robinson. He's falsely confessing. He doesn't mean what he's purportedly saying. Again, I go, he's innocent, less proven guilty. But tell me, you're looking at the evidence like me. [00:41:07] Speaker 7: I'll tell you, the only thing that gives me any sort of pause would be some of the testimony from the roommate. You know, I think he testified that they never talked about Charlie Kirk. Right. That seems odd, given the theory of the case. [00:41:28] Jesse Weber: Or LGBTQ rights. They never talked about it, apparently. [00:41:32] Speaker 7: Right. So that that sort of raised an eyebrow. But other than that, I didn't see anything. Those those discord chats back and forth don't point to culpability of anybody else. And you better believe the investigators have been through those chats, you know, with a fine tooth comb, looking at everything, looking at every person involved. There's certainly no evidence that his family was involved. [00:41:58] Speaker ?: Right. [00:41:58] Speaker 7: There's no credible evidence I've seen of anybody else being involved. The only question would be Lance Twix. [00:42:06] Jesse Weber: Look, the argument that I would make for against that would be how many times do we cover cases where somebody commits a heinous crime came out of nowhere? This is somebody who never mentioned anything. Somebody who didn't have a criminal history. Like, did anybody have any idea that Brian Koberger was going to brutally kill four complete strangers? Right. I mean, and it goes back. Everybody's different. Gil go. I mean, you know, this guy was living a whole separate life. But I do want to talk about something else. There was this letter that was apparently founder underneath this keyboard. And Robinson had allegedly taken a photo of that note before it was eventually burned. And while the letter itself wasn't shown to the court, it was detailed in this search warrant, according to Utah outlet KSL TV. And according to the warrant, the letter says, quote, Luna, if you're reading this per my text, then I am so sorry. I left the house this morning on a mission and sent an auto text. I am likely dead or facing a lengthy prison sentence. I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I took it. Now, KSL TV also reports that Robinson allegedly sent a message to this group chat on the Discord app, which Rich and I have been talking about, reportedly saying, hey, guys, I have bad news for you all. It was me at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for all this. I'm surrendering through a sheriff friend in a few moments. Thanks for all the good times and laughs. You've all been so amazing. Thank you all for everything. And after sitting in court and seeing all of the evidence that one could argue is piling up against him. Now it becomes a question. What is Robinson going to do? But I just go back to this. You know, I'm sure people out there would make the argument. Well, isn't it convenient? It's been inconvenient. He's, you know, confessing so thoroughly and so detailed when he doesn't have to. But it also doesn't strike me as odd that he would have done this, right? Seems like if I'm listening to the prosecution's narrative, very troubled person. Maybe he was, you know, you listen to Lance Twig's testimony. He was conflicted after doing this, although he doesn't appear to be showing much emotion in court right now. But it wouldn't be so strange that someone would take ownership over doing something like this and making a statement like this. It's kind of, guys, Luigi Mangione vibes. Again, he's innocent unless proven guilty. But I wouldn't be surprised if he confessed, no? [00:44:30] Speaker 7: Yeah, I could see it happening. Right. It's hard. I can't ever wrap my head around the thought process of somebody who would commit a crime like this. Why they would do it in the first place, how they could do it. I don't understand. Yeah. So when you get into the details of, you know, would he leave a note like that? Sure. Because I don't understand what he's doing in the first place. He could leave. But the thing about the note that stood out to me goes back to what I was saying before. He says, I have an opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I did it. And Twig says they never talked about Charlie Kirk before. That's what makes the note a little odd to me. [00:45:15] Jesse Weber: Yeah. [00:45:16] Speaker 7: Because then it just totally comes from nowhere. Why are you taking out? Why are you doing that? That's not something we've ever discussed. That is a little bit odd. But the whole thing, the whole crime, if it happened as alleged, is so disconnected from anything that I can rationalize that I can imagine it happening that way. [00:45:39] Jesse Weber: So, look, right now we're recording this before the preliminary hearing wraps up. It's supposed to wrap up today. One more day of evidence. But this decision from Judge Graff, it's probably not going to come down right away. There's more arguments. There's briefing, as we talked about. Those are scheduled for September. We can get an answer after that. But, look, my legal opinion, Rich's legal opinion, it seems this case is going to move forward towards trial. It does become a question, what does Robinson decide to do next? Rich Schoenstein, thank you so much. Really appreciate you taking the time. My pleasure. See you later. And that's all we have for you right now here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. And as always, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you should get your podcasts. You can also check us out on NBC's Peacock as well. If you want to follow me, X Instagram, my News Nation show, Jesse Weber Live, Monday through Friday, 11 p.m. Eastern. See you next time, everybody.