Water and Navigation Special Magistrate Hearing 3.25.26 - Mar 25, 2026

Ready? Welcome to Pinellas County Special Magistrate hearings. All witnesses offering testimony or presenting evidence will be required to swear from that the testimony they provide is the truth. The special magistrate may question any witness. The clerk will announce the names of the cases from the agenda. There's just one case this afternoon, correct? Correct. Okay. And so when you hear your case called, that would be the Smith case in the county. Please respond by coming to the podium. When addressing the special magistrate, please speak clearly into the microphone. Any person who decides to appeal the decision of the special magistrate with respect to any matter considered this hearing, will need a record of the proceedings and for such purposes may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which record includes the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is based. Such record is not provided by Pinellas County. And before we get started, just so you know, if you're presenting any documentation, any evidence, anything like that, there is a seal here in the podium. You're going to place your document facing up to the seal and it's going to be projected on the two screens here, the back one, and on our monitors. Okay? And then, again, reiterating, please speak up into the microphone because this is being recorded. Have your cell phones on vibrate or if you need to take a phone call or talk amongst each other, please go outside because this is sensitive when it's being recorded, as well as if you're going to make any comments or anything, you need to be in front of a microphone. Okay? So I'm going to read in the case. It's N. Ray Rogers Smith, Variance Request for Water Navigation Application Number WND-25-00491-10434, Sovereign Drive, Largo, Florida 33774, Parcel ID 13-30-14-42026-000-1910, Case Number CCM-26-00025. Thank you. Mr. Smith, if you could come up. Counsel? Mr. Smith, could you state your name just for the record? Roger Smith. Okay. And any testimony you give today, whatever you do, you're going to need to speak in that microphone. Um, is this your first witness for the documents? Uh, this is, yes. Mr. Sims is here to present on behalf of the county. Okay. Um, gentlemen, if both of you could raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you give today be the truth and nothing but the truth? Yes. Um, did you put your name on the record? Yes. Yardley Collette for the county. What we're going to do today is, I'm going to do a, I'm going to have an initial presentation by the county, just for documents at first. Okay. And then F, and you can object to any if you want. I don't doubt if that'll happen, but you have every right to. Uh, then if you have any documents they missed that you want to put in, you know what I mean, we'll go over that and we'll do that, that. And then when we're done with that, I'm going to ask Mr. Smith, you know, I mean, he's the application on the variance to put on any witness he wants to put on and put his case on and that you can cross examine. And then they're going to do that. You have, you're going to have a right to cross examine them. And I'll remind you of that when they come up. You can, while they're putting on their case, you could sit down or stand right there, whatever you feel more comfortable. Okay. Okay. Um, county's going to allow county staff to present the, it's mainly just the facts of the case. I'm sure that you're aware of the magistrate. Yeah. So I believe we're starting out with a PowerPoint, um, to be able to walk through, which has already been provided to communications, which should be up on the screen or I believe it's okay. We'll be up on the screen. And then there may be one additional documentation too. Well, let's see what's in the PowerPoint because I have a lot of documents that were given to me. Go ahead. Thank you, magistrate. You may proceed. My name is Jesse Sims. I'm the environmental program manager for a water navigation. So the site location is at one zero four three four sovereign drive in Largo, which is a resident south of Walsingham Road. This is an aerial on the red dot depicts the subject property. And this is a zoomed in aerial and it shows the existing dock. So Mr. Smith is requesting a variance to section 58 dash five, five, five B one of the water navigation regulations, which states private docks to be constructed in the waters of the county shall be constructed so that the length of the dock excluding tie poles shall not extend from the mean high water line or sea wall of the property further than one half the width of the property at the waterfront. This requirement may be waived by the county provided that signed statements of no objection from both adjacent waterfront property owners have been submitted. Mr. Smith was not able to obtain those signatures from both adjacent neighbors. So water navigation sent both of those neighbors a notice of application for variance letter. They had 30 days from receipt to object in writing to us and they both did. And so that's why we're here today. This is the plan submitted by Mr. Smith. His shoreline width is 75 feet, which would allow the structure a maximum length of 37.5 feet. The existing dock is 50 feet long, which was permitted in 1974. And he's proposing now to extend his dock with a four foot wide by 49 foot long walkout, which you see in yellow there, and also an 11 foot wide by 16 foot long boat lift, which is to the right of that proposed walkout. So the total dock length will be 99 feet. Here is a site photo of existing conditions. I do want to point out that the platform that you see coming off of the seawall will be removed with the proposed plan. So you'll only have a four foot wide walkout going all the way out to the head or terminal platform. Here is a site photo taking all taking on the end of the existing dock on the subject property looking south. You'll see the Imperial Point community dock there in the background. And then also standing on the end of the existing dock looking north, you'll see the neighbor's dock there in the background. So per section 58-539A, the special magistrate must grant the variance request if the permit applicant establishes at hearing that all applicable criteria set forth in section 138-231 Pinellas County Land Development Code are satisfied. After staff's review of his variance request, it was determined that all criteria have been satisfied as noted in the staff report provided to your office. And then some extra information here for you. This is an aerial showing what we call a line of uniformity. So basically we just drew that dashed line at the end of all the existing docks in the immediate area. And you see Mr. Smith's proposed structure in red, which is the fourth from the left. This is an aerial with an overlay of the proposed structure. You'll see an area shaded in green, which you will see better in this one. That is where the seagrass is. And the proposed structure would not impact seagrass. And then this is an aerial showing the various dock lengths of the different docks in the immediate area. County, I know this is part of the record, but county would move the PowerPoint presentation in as county's exhibit one. Mr. Smith, do you have any objections to the PowerPoint? Have you seen it before? Except that we're going to go like C1? Yes. C1's been admitted into evidence. And then county also just this morning received additional an actual email from Army Corps of Engineers that I'm going to allow Mr. Sims to go into a little bit more. But this was not previously provided to the Magistrate as it was received at 814 this morning. And the email to summarize, county staff had reached out to the Army Corps because county actually is able to approve certain permits without having the Army Corps to have to review them. And Mr. Sims, you can correct me if I'm wrong, those that the Army Corps would have to review are the ones that are designated or go either yellow or red is my understanding that the Army Corps would have to review. This one has been coded as green, so the Army Corps would not have to review this. It was under the waiver provision. I'm familiar with it. Mr. Smith, do you have any objection to this going into the record? I'm going to call it C2? C2, yes. And just so it's on the record, here's the email that was received this morning and email that was sent last Friday, March 20th, by another county staff with the attachment. Okay, well, we might get a part of it then. Yes. So it's all just combined in this email. So this would be a C2. And then, Magistrate, just for ease or assistance, there were objections that were received either by your office or by the county. And so staff has put together just an aerial overview with the outline in red is the subject property. And then these small pins are where letters of objection have been received by the county. So this could be moved in as an exhibit. It's more of just a kind of a visual aid. We could use it as a visual aid at this point, but you can put the objections in there, the written documents. As far as the staff report? If they're in the staff report. Yes, we can move those in. If you want to put that in, I don't think either way, it's up to you. Okay, so staff report was previously presented or submitted to your office a week ago, which included additional exhibits of the objections, affidavit of mailing of the notice of the hearing. The answer to that is yes, but Mr. Smith, have you seen the staff report? If you could come up, sir. Have you seen the staff report that council is showing? Per county code, county has to submit a staff report seven days in advance of the hearing. And so this is, yes, the staff report that was submitted. It's a memo dated March 25th, right? Yes, we have seen this. And the objections were with it, council? Yes. The objections were with it? Yes. This is just the staff report. There were, let me reference my five exhibits. So the first exhibit, or exhibits one, two, three, and four, if I remember correctly, are the objections that were received. And then exhibit five was the affidavit of Susan Howard. Susan Howard. Yes, regarding mailing out the notices of hearing. And there was one additional objection that was received by your office, I believe. My office? By the magistrate's office, yes. All objections were, I believe, sent, or supposed to be sent there. And so that was an objection by Ms. Brundvand. And I may mispronounce that, and I apologize. But that was received last Wednesday, so March 18th, at 1.42 p.m. I have four objections, and I have the affidavit. Do you know anything about this other objection? Yes. And that was not included in our staff report. I believe our staff report was either submitted earlier that morning, or it may have been submitted at the same time. But that objection did not make it into the staff report. Did that send to me? Do I have that? I'm looking up now. All right. I would give you my copy, but it's not a clean copy, Magistrate. No, I just want the record to be clean. Yep. I understand. It was forwarded to you, Magistrate, on Wednesday the 18th at 1.47. Oh, that was the extra one. Okay. Yes. So there's five objections, written objections? Yes, Magistrate. And then you also have the affidavit of Susan Howard is going to be part of this staff report? Yes, it's Exhibit 5 of the staff report. Have you seen the affidavit, Mr. Smith? Sorry? Suzanne Howard? No. The affidavit, just it's pursuant or to meet the county code requirement that the notice of hearing is sent out and postmarked within 20 days of the hearing. So that was attached to the staff report. Oh, that's not familiar. Yes. I'm not familiar with the names of these. I'm not expecting any objections. You can make them all you want, but I'm just trying to make the record clean so you have a clean record regardless of whatever decisions made either way. Okay. Go ahead. You want to offer that into evidence? If it's not already as part of the record, it was submitted as part of the record, but we can offer it in as. Yeah, I want to put it into evidence. Yes. That's my point here. I want to put everything that's in the record that's relevant into evidence. Understand. So would staff report with exhibits. So I'll pull the staff reports, which include the affidavits, right? I mean the affidavit, right? And the object, and four of the objections. There would be five objections now? Well, staff report only references five exhibits, so one through four were objections. Okay, so there's four objections, so I have the objection. Okay, I thought you said it was a fifth. Yes. Okay, yes. And the affidavit, right? In a C-3? C-3 is what I have. Okay. And we can go on and then move the fifth objection from Ms. Brunvard in his. Say it again? The fifth objection, the one that was sent, Caroline, what time was that sent? It was March 18th at 1.47 PM. So just so that the record is complete, the county would move. And it was Denise Brunvard, correct? Brunvard, yes. The objection from Ms. Brunvard. It still came in within the timeframe, right? Yes. It was a week before. Do you know what they're referring to, Mr. Smith? Yes. Okay. No objection. Accepted, and you can make that all a part of C-3, right? You're going to combine that in with the staff report? Okay. I'm taking staff report as to be with the affidavit as well as the five objections. Okay. Can we do it that way? I defer to you. Okay. That sounds good. That works for the county magistrate. I do not believe there's anything else that the county has to include in the record. So you're not going to put the application in or any of the summaries, but you're going to leave them for him? Yes. Him being Mr. Smith. Was it with the staff report? No. I have the record having here. I've got the applicant made a final submission recently. Have you seen that? That does not. I have not seen that first. Okay. All right. I'll have Mr. Smith's case come in that we don't need. And we have the application which is the basis of this entire variance, right? Correct. I would suggest for Mr. Smith since it is the applicant for him to move that in. Okay. That's what I'm saying. I was going to say if you were going to make it easier for me. Yes. I'm just going to stick as far as with the county, the PowerPoint that's been presented, the email from the Army Corps, and then the staff report including all of the exhibits which are the five objections and the affidavit from Ms. Howard. Okay. All right. All right. Nothing further for county staff. I don't think any facts were testified to. Okay. You can have a seat then. Thank you, Magister. Mr. Smith, I have an application. Could someone help me? Have you seen this and look at the attachments? You can show that to Mr. Smith. That's the application you or your contractor initially provided, and there's also answers to the variance questions at the end. I just want to know if you've seen that before. Yes, sir. It was submitted on your behalf. Okay. Yes. You want to put those into evidence? Could you help her? Yes. Somebody help her mark that document. They're going to mark it. Mark it. Call it. Let's call it. A-1. A-1. Yeah. Applicant 1. A-1 is the, give me a second here. Oh, is that my copy? That's, okay. I'll get it from you later. Yeah. I'd like to have it just for now. Thank you. Just give me a second here. One second. Answers to, answers to criteria. Okay. I'm going to accept A-1 into evidence, which is both the application, and there was also a cover sheet, and the answers to the criteria for the variance prepared by Mr. Smith. I believe you also prepared it for final consideration recently, another summary document. Yes. Put this in the evidence on your behalf. See all I can put up a number. Call that A-2. Let's call that the final summary. Okay. Magistrate, can I review this very quickly with my staff? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. That final summary, I had a whole bunch of photos with it, too. Ms. Doctum? I believe so. You had some of you, I could actually blow them up, right? Aren't they? Yeah, they're in, do you have no objection there for the county? The county's rule on this is really just whether or not it meets the variance criteria. I understand. Thank you, Mr. Smith. Okay. Mr. Smith, at this point, I'll let you present any other documents you may have, any witnesses you want to put up here, okay, or any argument you want to make regarding your application for a variance. Okay. If you can do that in any way, don't... All right. Don't pressure, okay? No, you're not in return. You got three sets of additional copies. Who would like those? Additional copies of what? Additional copies of what? Of what I'm presenting. Though it's something we haven't seen before? Yes. Well, yes, responses to the objections and a little bit of additional detail as to the... When you say responses, could I just see what one looks like for a second? It may be attached to something else. I just want to see the document. If you could step back there for a second. Just give me a second here. Can I see the one that's up there in seat A2? Yes, sir. This is A2, sir. It's already in evidence. He has a... There's supplemental things. There's additional things. Okay. So, step back. Yeah, go back there. Okay. Well, why don't you testify as to what the supplemental things are and then you can move it into evidence. Why don't you explain what's different than A2 now or... Go through the whole thing if you want. Okay. Should I distribute any of the copies now or... Whatever you want. If you want the county to be looking at it when you're talking, it's up to you. Okay. I've got... Some of it I'll be referring to photos and identifying navigation lines, things like that. That's right. And you can put that on the seal right there and then it'll project to the screens. Okay. When you're speaking of it. And you can point in everything and it'll show. All right. Very good. Well, thank you for taking the time, Magistrate Matthews, for hearing my concerns today. My wife and I have looked far and wide for a home that could accommodate our boat. And before purchasing the home, we contacted Pinellas County Water and Navigation to see if there would be any navigational issues getting a variance permit. And they said as long as there were no environmental or navigation concerns from the survey, they had no problems getting permitted. And as a result, they did the survey and found no problems. For me, having a home on the water and keeping a boat behind our house is no different than keeping a car in the driveway. We bought our dream home last May, applied for a dock and a boat lift permit. We're hoping to have the dock finished prior to our return from up north. And that didn't happen. Now we're paying a huge premium to keep a boat an hour away in Tarpon Springs. The closest location that could accommodate us. The variances for me but not for thee kind of sums up all the objections that you're going to hear. We're simply requesting the same variances that have been granted to every one of our neighbors. And we're new to the neighborhood and it saddens us that each of our neighbors have successfully obtained variances but wish to prevent us from getting what they have. These pictures I'll flip through. You can see our dock at low tide. There's no water there except for the last few feet. Neighbors to the north have a little bit of water. It's not considerable. This is low-lying land. Our neighbors to the south have water. We've seen this already. This just shows the dock imposed onto the view to show what it'll look like. This is I think is the key picture that shows navigation because a lot of the objections are very concerned with navigation. We can see here the path down the middle is the intercoastal waterway channel which any boater knows they need to stay between the channel markers or run the risk of running aground. So our dock over here is far from the channel. We have no impact on navigation. Our neighbors to the north actually have pilings that stick out further than ours that are not documented. The boat launch that you see in the far right of the screen is also referenced in numerous complaints and concerns. And you can see that that's a considerable distance from our dock and our proposed extension. And we expect that to have zero impact as it's two houses away. This is a screen capture from a Garmin marine navigation piece. And this is our subject dock here in the community fishing pier. This island is referenced in numerous complaints about the navigation hazards. And then this is also marker 28 is referenced where a tragic death happened six years ago. And you can see that it's a straight shot down the channel and far from our proposed dock extension. This shows a look from our neighbors to the north and the minor impact that it will have on their sight lines. Same thing here with our neighbors to the south and the minor impact it will have on their sight lines. And all three homes that are on the water that have objected out of the five objections, three of them are on the water and have all successfully gotten variances for their own properties. And any objections that they've raised would equally apply to their properties. And you can see every single person that has a dock has been approved for a variance. So in summary, we couldn't even keep a rowboat at our existing dock. Our boat looks like new. Our home is going to be beautiful. It needs a little bit of work now, but we are planning on spending a lot of money fixing the place up. We're only going to be here for six months of the year. We're snowbirds. This is our primary residence, however, in Florida. And so the boat will only be here having any impact on the view half of the year. Currently, a friend couldn't even pick me up at my dock to go boating. I would have to meet them somewhere else because there's not enough water to pull up at my dock unless it's a very high tide. Having to drive to Tarpon Springs an hour away and pay huge money in a marina, I think, is an unfair hardship not to mention the diminished value to my home by not having a waterfront property that can accommodate a boat. And I would have to disclose that to any potential buyers if this is not approved. We believe that we purchased our home with the right to keep our boat behind our home, just as our neighbors are able to do. And we respectfully ask for you to approve the variance. Some of the objections I want to run through as quickly as I can. This first one is from the Yingers, who are my neighbors immediately to the south of me. And they raised an objection that it goes beyond the county code. And that is true, just as the Yingers have successfully gotten a variance to extend their dock beyond county code. Point two is that the structure would be in the narrows in the intercoastal waterway. And that's true, the same as theirs in every other dock. So you did research and found that they got the two adjoining landowners together? Yes. And I'll show you all the variances that have been obtained. I have copies of all of them. Point three is that... Could you just scroll that down? There you go. Okay. Point number three was that there was a tragic accident back in 2020. And it says that it had a death to a boater hitting a navigational marker just north of the proposed structure. Well, that's all true. But a little bit of nuance to the story is that it was an alcohol-related accident that occurred at 1 a.m. It involved a group of teenagers traveling at high speed in a no-wake zone. They slammed into channel marker 28, 423 yards north of our dock, past all the other docks in our neighborhood. The Yingers must have felt that this wouldn't impact their dock extension that they installed shortly after that happened. Point number four is the area has a public restaurant caddies right across the waterway and the Yingers extension doesn't impact that and ours won't either. Number five talks about the community dock, three houses down from mine, and the view of the community. And the community dock extends significantly past our proposed extension and will have little to no impact on other docks extending, with other docks extending further. Point number six is the boat ramp for the community and my impact on that. The Yingers dock extension is between ours and the community pier, so that will have no impact. Number seven, there's a boat, kayak, and paddleboard rental facility across the waterway. That's true, and we don't expect that to have any impact just as the Yingers extension doesn't impact it. Item number eight, just to the south, Pinellas County Sheriff's Boating Headquarters, they were concerned about the sheriffs that go by regularly at full speed. And this does happen several times a week. Their concern with this adding a protruding structure will only make public safety a larger concern. The problem is it's not a protruding structure, as you'll see in the attached photos. The Yingers must have felt that this wouldn't impact their dock extension that they installed shortly after, and our structure won't protrude as shown in the photo. The dotted lines clearly indicate that our dock is actually set back compared to surrounding docks. Regarding navigational safety, we feel that the large tree trunk sections cut from the Yingers tree and thrown into the water, along with significant brush trimmings, are much more of a safety hazard to boaters. Fortunately, all of these items, pineapples, pumpkins, loaves of bread, corn cobs, palm tree branches, wash up on our shore behind our mangroves where I dispose of them properly and safely to prevent them from attracting rats. And you can see the tree here where it's been cut off just the other day where I observed them doing that. And here's all of the branches and tree trunks and bush trimmings of multiple bushes that I retrieved. There's the pumpkin that I fished out of the water. So this stuff always just goes right next door and washes up on my shore. And then this is a picture of their home from across the way. And in addition, this is the one on the right, right? Yes. Okay. Yes. This is my home is the one on the left. There's the one on the right. In addition to the boat lift that they have gotten the variance for on the right hand side of their dock, the variance was approved. They also have an enormous boat slip that can accommodate a huge cabin cruiser. These poles are 24 feet apart, so this can accommodate an enormous boat. And that variance was requested six years ago, citing extreme hardship. If they ever get a second boat, it will definitely impact our view. However, we have no objections to that. We accept that as part of living on the water. And I don't mind looking at boats. And then here, this is again that important drawing that shows the intercoastal waterway and the relationship of my dock to the boat launch way over here with two homes in between. This next objection is from the likenesses. They're my neighbors to the north. Which property is this? They're my neighbors to the north of my property. Got it. They strenuously object to this variance and they're very concerned about safety and other boating traffic and the environmental impact on the mangroves and sea life. And the likenesses evidently didn't have those same concerns when they signed off on the dock variance to their neighbors, one house further to the north, that got a 12-foot extension, then a 24-foot variance extension, then a 59-foot variance extension. I don't think in that order. But it was three separate variances and the likenesses signed off on each one of those variances. And that ended up being a much longer dock than ours. So they didn't seem to have those same concerns then. Their next objection talks about the clearance of only 300 feet between us and the restaurant across the way. And our dock extension will not impact that as I've already covered. There's a small island just north of the proposed dock extension, which requires boating traffic to alter their course. As you can see here, the island that they're referring to is Snook Island. And the only way it would require you to alter your course would be if you're in the shallows outside the channel, where you've probably already run aground. Because if you stay between the channel markers, it's a perfectly straight line. They're also concerned with the neighboring docks that already add congestion to the boat launch in Imperial Point. And I've already covered that, so I won't continue with that. Their next concern is that the water is very shallow and the existing docks are crowded in close proximity. They're concerned about the mangroves and the nesting birds and the wildlife and the fish and the dolphins and the manatees. And the water and navigation had no issue with it. And I don't see this impacting any of those issues any different than any of the other docks, which I expect would be extremely negligible. Their next point talked about the large deceleration wakes. I'm not familiar with what a deceleration wake is. When you decelerate, you quench your wake, not increase it. They're concerned, again, with it being detrimental to the mangroves. Water navigation has already covered that, that there's no risk to those. They're concerned with the powerful engine creating wakes. And the problem with this is I'd be traveling to and from my boat in either direction in a no-wake zone for a significant distance before I approach my boat lift. And when I get anywhere near a boat lift, anybody that's pulling into a boat lift is barely going at walking speed. You're going extremely slow. So there's going to be zero wake. And their final concern was that the size of the dock and the accidents along the narrows. And we simply want the same variance that all of our other neighbors have been granted, including the likenesses. The Brunvards objection are the only other neighbors that objected. And I assume these are friends of one of the two neighbors that I have that are coming here to show them support. And that's great. But they're concerned, again, with the obstruction of the water view, including their own, which is kind of surprising because this is the Brunvards' residence right here. And here's our residence right here. So I don't see that having a significant impact on their view. And then they're also concerned about the county code being altered in order to grant us this variance. And this is the same variance that the county has previously proved for the Brunvards and all of their neighbors. The Bruce's objection is a neighbor that's inland and has no view of any part of my property, much less the water. They're concerned with the community dock and enjoying the view. And we've already covered that. They're concerned with the mangroves and the tree trimmings. And water navigation has already covered that. And I happen to appreciate my mangroves and hope that they recover even more from the hurricane damage that they had before I bought the place. With Caddy's Restaurant across the intercoastal, they're concerned with navigation and safety. We've already covered that. They're concerned that the intercoastal is narrow here. And Pinellas County has lots of accidents. We've already covered the impact on navigation. And then they're concerned that any additional structures, although they may not be large, continue to endanger wildlife. So I don't see any basis for any of these objections. Their final two objections are the adjacent neighbors are against the extension and we support their objection. The neighbors with no view of any part of the property may not be aware that all the neighbors have successfully obtained the variances for docks much longer than ours. Then their last concern is that I have no justifiable reason for getting this variance. Why should I need such a large dock? We feel completely justified in requesting the variance as all but three feet of our dock is on dry land at low tide. And we have requested the bare minimum that we could possibly use in order to still enjoy boating there and still being shorter than most of the docks around us. And this is the location of that complaint that was filed. And finally, the Rossi's objection is too lengthy to read. Concerned about the dock's extension, the boat launch and the view of the intercoastal and the safety were the main points. And the community dock extends past our proposed extension and will have zero impact on navigation with all other docks extending further to the north. And impact on boat launching 160 feet away will be a non-issue. And finally, the variances. And these are going in order of the Yingers to the south of me to every one of the docks to the north of me. Every one of those homes has docks and they've all successfully attained variances. The Yingers had two variances. One's to set pilings for the wet slip for the enormous boat that it would accommodate and they obtained a 35-foot variance. The next one was the likenesses variance. And they've got a dock that extends out with the pilings that are unauthorized further than our proposed extension. This is back in the 70s? Yeah, that one. A lot of them go back. Most of these residents have lived there for a long time. Well, let me interrupt you with just a couple of questions. Sure. Okay. I presume, you know, you've read the 58-555 if you get your two neighbors to agree. Yes. It would have gone through, right? Right. Now, Doc, the county code says you can't go out more than one half the width of your property. Correct. And why do you think they have that one half the width? What are they trying to accomplish the county? What's the purpose of this? I suspect that that is referencing for the whole county where people have water all the way up to their seawall? No. Yeah. Here's the code section that you're here for. Private docks to be constructed in the waters of the county shall be constructed so that the length of the dock, excluding tie poles, shall not extend from the mean high water line or seawall of the property further than one half the width of the property. Correct. That's how far out you can go. Right. Okay. And they say this requirement may be waived by the county that you get your two neighbors to agree. Right. What do you think they're trying to accomplish here by making it, looking at the width of your property and letting you go out halfway? Why do I think the county is? Yeah. What's the purpose of this? I think they just don't want to have super long docks that are unnecessary. You don't think this has anything to do with view? Oh, absolutely. Okay. That's what I'm asking. Yeah. Absolutely. And I've seen all your arguments. If I had water all the way up to my seawall, I'd be happy with the dock that I have. Got it. The county's trying to regulate view in some fashion. Exactly. Protected in one fashion. Okay. Exactly. I understand that I'm going to have an impact on the view of some manner. Everything does. I'm not trying to argue. Exactly. I'm just trying to really want to address those. And I appreciate the county putting a limit on it. Yeah. If everybody abided by that limit, there would not be a single dock there except for the one right next to the boat launch because fortunately for them, they'd have deep water right next to the boat launch, but nobody else does. Do you know how long this ordinance has been in effect? Do you know if they were infected in the 70s? I believe it goes all the way back to before the development back in the 70s. Is it possible this could have come in after that? You don't know? I'm just asking. All the variances were obtained due to the same conditions that I have today. So that regulation was put in place. Oh, sure, the same conditions were there. Right. I just meant, you know, whether it was automatic or not. Sure. Are you going to have to go back? So go ahead. I just wanted to see what, you know, about the view because both of the, your two neighbors there, both in their objections, this is objection one and two, they both spoke about the view. Not that it's right. Not that it's a lot or anything. Right. I'm just pointing that out. Okay. Go ahead. You can go through. I appreciate that it does impact the view and I... Everything is going to impact. How much? I wish it didn't. When they get their big boat that they've already designed the slip for, it's going to impact my view. I think it's part of living on the water. Understood. Understood. Go ahead. So this was a, this next variance was for the likenesses where they were approved for the variance. The next one is the Bonasaras variance where they had a 59 foot extension and then a 12 foot, and then a 24 foot extension. All three of them, three different variances and each one of them was approved by the likenesses and they cited not enough water for a boat so they had to go out even further. So the sum total of their dock was 120 feet and all three variances were signed off by Barry likeness on the first one, Rima likeness on the second one, and Barry likeness on the third one, lack of water for boating. This is 1984, correct? Yes. Then the Gartmans have a 120 foot dock that they have successfully obtained a variance for. And then the Rortys, a 120 foot dock, successfully obtained it. The Brunvans, a 120 foot dock that they successfully achieved that variance. And finally, the Tollens got a 138 foot dock. And it was approved by the Brunvans who objected to me getting a variance of extending my dock past the basic length. So that kind of summarizes it. I respectfully ask for a variance approval and I understand that this is going to impact people to some degree, but I feel that I should be able to achieve the same variances that everybody else has. The situation is pretty extreme. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Smith. That was very clear. Since there's some, do you have any cross-examination? No. I'm going to let the county proceed and then I'll call you back in case you think there's something else you want to say. I'd give you another chance. Counsel? Magistrate, county has no other presentation to provide. I know that there are individuals, objectors that are here. County would like to clarify, if it's allowed to clarify what the, how county staff went through the variance criteria within our land development code. It was upon an independent basis. Bring this so I can reference it. You can make preliminary argument if you want, Mr. Smith. Preliminary? Go ahead, yeah. I can do this on closing, too. Yeah, I was going to say. On closing, that might be more appropriate. It might be easier. Now, what did you, what are you going to do with the witnesses? I'm going to let the witnesses speak. I was going to, there are objectors that I know that have signed in. That's what I meant, yeah. It's, we have no objection to objectors coming in, or neighbors speaking. You're not going to, you're not going to represent them and put them on, right? No. They're just going to speak. No, that's correct. All right. Let me, let's do that next. Okay, let's put that on the record, then I'll give you a chance and then we'll go back to Mr. Smith. Thank you. Carolyn, could you see what, anyone here that wants to address the issue? Sure. Ms. Rima Likeness. I'm sorry, could you give me that name again? Rima, R-E-M-A, Likeness. L-I-K-E-N-E-S-S. R-E-M-A. Oh, yes. R-E-M-A. I pronounced it correctly? Rima? Did I pronounce it correctly? Rima Likeness? Yes. Okay, thank you. Ms. Likeness, if you could raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you give today be the truth and nothing but the truth? I do. Send your opinion or give me facts. Okay, so. Did you put something in writing? I'm going to go over the letter that I submitted earlier. Okay. Let me just check my list. And I have a few comments. I'm going to let you do all of that. Awesome. I have this one for Ms. Likeness. I've got Rossi's. I've got Bruce Yanger. Oh, Likeness. I do have it right in front of me. You have the floor. Okay. We objected to this boat ramp, this boat dock. My first thought was it was longer than all of the others around there. And I don't know if these pictures really show a good picture of the congestion in the corner of where the club dock is. The club dock and ramp are used quite a lot. We have over 600 units in Imperial Point. All right. I don't have the number of boats, but I know there are a lot of boats that use that ramp. I know where it is. I've looked at it. Yeah. All right. My husband and I have lived in Imperial Point for 49 years. We got married, moved there, raised our family there. I can tell you that a number of the docks along there that he's talked about variances on were built in 1973 when the houses were first built. And we're the second owner of the house, so the dock predates us as it does. Well, right now I think we're probably the longest residence on our street. And so, and giving variances to our next door neighbor, he's not that far out based on where he sits in the water. If you look at the pictures, can I show a picture? Yes. Where did I put it? Right here? On the seal. A little bit lower. There you go. Okay. Do you want to turn it the other way? You want to turn it? Yeah. That's fine. That's good. Yeah. Okay. This is Mr. Smith's picture. He shared this with me early in the process of what? Now, you're looking at your house to be the left or the right here. My house is here. Got it. Go ahead. And this is the one that he said we approved variances on. And if you'll look along the edge here, you can see how shallow it is. We originally, when we moved in there, had like a 16, 18-foot boat. And we had to wait for high tide to bring our boat in there. And so this dock always had the same problem. This one was built in 1973. This one and this one. These two are newer. So there was no problem with extending at that point. And I don't know what the rules were in the mid-1970s. The Buenos Aires did not do those extensions, I don't believe. It was a previous owner. He also talked about, and I don't know that my picture. Oh, here is another picture that he gave me, and it shows further down the street. Here is the Bruinband dock that is also very long, and they got permissions to build that. But this is a corner lot. What you cannot see on this picture is that this is a corner lot, and it goes right around here. So there's a lot more room there to get in and out like that. This is the club ramp. And these docks have been built much more recently. So when they put boats in out here, they need room to get out. And already we've got congestion here. If we put this dock further out like this and have a 42-foot cigarette boat on it, that impacts sight. And it's not just a cosmetic thing. If you're coming out of the ramp here, you need to be able to see up the waterway in order to get out safely. There was one other point I wanted to make. We are in the Narrows, and the speed limit is no wake. And even though it's no wake, there are people who drink, who drive carelessly, who come through there at high, reckless speeds. And up and down the Intracoastal, it's been known that people have accidents. And one actually happened at our dock in the late 1970s, early 1980s. A boat, a small motorboat, was coming along the Intracoastal. He went underneath the club dock and came along and jammed himself under our dock because we were at low tide. And his child was in a coma for quite a while. Accidents happen, and we need to prevent anything we can and look at the safety features in advance. He talked about debris washing up on his area there. Every time there's a storm, we get debris. All along here, there's debris that has to be found out. This is the one that showed a tree cut. It was one of the photos. No, but he was talking about things like a melon and stuff like that. Stuff like that is going to happen. He was referring to your property at that time? It's happened to our property. It's happened to his property, apparently. And it's a thing that we can't prevent when the tide carries things. Because we're shallow. And I was the one that brought up the environmental issues. We have all sorts of animals out there that really love this area. We have birds that live in there. The manatees come up there. The dolphins come up a lot. And we have wonderful seabirds that nest there. And there's also some fishermen that come along here a lot of times catching mullet and things like that. So we're narrow. We're not a place for deep water boats. That's all I have to say. Mr. Smith, do you have any questions of this witness? You don't have to, but if you want to, I'm going to need you to come up to the microphone. I do. Mr. Smith, if you could speak into that microphone for the record. You said that the debris being thrown into water is something that you didn't think could be prevented. And you've seen it happen before. Have you seen Carol Yinger actually throwing it in? Yeah, I have. And all of the examples that I gave. Mr. Smith, you can only ask questions. Okay. If you want to address it in your summary, fine. But she's just here to answer what you testified to. You can ask her any questions. Okay. I can appreciate you as your neighbor. No. You're trying to be nice. I got that. No, I got it. Better mind. Thank you. No further questions. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Carol Yinger. Carol Yinger. Am I saying that right? Yes, that's correct. Y-I-E-N-G-E-R. You're right. I have it. If you could raise your right hand, do you swear a firm that any testimony you'll give today be the truth and nothing but the truth? Yes. And you're the property owner on the other side? Yes. I'm on the left side of him, which is the south side. Got it. So basically, I would like to keep this short. I'm not very good at speaking, but I'm going to just- Take your time. I haven't yelled at anybody all afternoon yet. Go ahead. I'm going to just touch on some things and kind of go round and round and just kind of pinpoint things out. This wasn't a personal thing, but it seems to have gotten that way. Basically, they moved in and I met them once in the yard. And one evening, my husband answered the door and there was a knock at the door and it was Mr. Smith behind me and said, hey, the county says you need to sign these papers. I'm leaving tomorrow morning back to New York and need them signed. And my husband's like, well, I have to talk to my wife first. We can't sign anything without, you know, looking at it. And I'm just kind of starting from the beginning. That's right. So anyway, my husband came back and told me I wasn't feeling that great that night. And I said, oh, okay. I said, oh, wow, we can't sign any papers. First of all, we don't have to sign anything. And he made it seem like the county said we had to sign it. But he actually, yeah, the county wants you to sign it, but he wanted it signed without us really paying attention to it, I assume. But so we didn't sign it. I did call him later and just said, hey, you know, this is something that we have to digest. You know, we've lived here 26 years and everything. And so anyway, he, you know, given us a little information, but I never did get real personal with him to ask him what kind of boat, how long the boat was, didn't do that. But I did find out from talking to my neighbor, Rima, that lives on the other side of him, the north side, you know, I said, do you know what kind of boat he has? You know, and she's like, yeah, he asked, you know, he wanted a picture. And he gave her a picture. And so anyway, I was like, oh, wow, well, he didn't even offer that or anything. That's a pretty long boat. I didn't really come prepared. I'm just going to kind of talk off the. You're doing fine. Yeah. So. You objected and you're telling me the reasons. So first of all. Yeah. My doc. Let me just, I printed something off the, where do I put this here? More to the right. No, no, no. I'm sorry. You were right, but just right there on the seal. Down. Okay. A little bit more down. A little bit more. Okay. There you go. Perfect. Maybe we should have an x-ray. I don't know. So anyway, as you could see here to the left, to the south, we ended up getting a permit and had the Army Corps of Engineers come out, got everything approved, did it, you know, the right way, did it legally. And our boat is a 25-foot boat. And you see our dock there is a little extended and you see some, you know, posts out there, some pools. We put that out there just in case we decide when my husband retires to maybe get a catamaran, which doesn't draw much water because if you put a boat out there, there's not a whole lot of water, but we have enough water, as you can see, to pull up pretty close to the seawall along to the neighbor, to the left of me, that's to the south of me, which there is another boat dock lift, not dock, but another lift there that is not on this picture. Well, anyway, at low tide it's kind of hard to get in, but, you know, we just kind of just tied up to the dock and wait for high tide and then, you know, pull it onto the lift. Well, as you can see here, which, you know, he never offered me any of this. I got this from my neighbor, Rima, because she's been there for so many years and, of course, we're going to talk about, you know, things and neighbors and things are going on and changes, and change is okay. I'm okay with that, but he didn't, you know, say anything about the dock. He just said he's going to be there six months out of the year, and we wouldn't have to look at it for another six months. Well, I found out he's going to be there seven months through another neighbor. But the thing is, it is the Narrows, and he was incorrect about, you know, when it comes to, you know, accidents. The one accident that happened on November 1st after midnight with the teenagers, the gentleman that was driving the boat was not under the influence and supposedly was put on probation. But I think everybody knows that story about Rachel that was killed on marker 28. They went to a Halloween party, came back, and it's so narrative. They hit ground, knocked the marker out, and she was found floating behind the house and how they found her body pretty quickly as they pinged her, and it went south. But years ago, before I moved there, I heard there was a boating accident. The reason why they changed it to no wake is because there was a drunk doctor or something that caused an accident and somebody was killed. Rima has had an accident, you know, with her doc and all of that. And, you know, first of all, when you buy a house on the water and you have a boat, you really have to, you know, look at everything and, you know, and talk to your neighbors and get to know them and kind of get an idea before you spend that type of money. Like, hey, are these neighbors, you know, going to let me have a dog? This is a size boat that we have. We're considering buying this house. But I would do my homework and meet everybody and talk with them before I decide to buy a home on the water. So and talking about buying a home on the water, he's actually devaluing our property because our property, I would say we put some money into it. And as you could see, a swimming pool and we had to put money into a seawall to support a swimming pool. And the seawall comes up another foot. But anyway, you know, when you buy your house for, you know, I don't know the exact number, 800,000. And people are like, why did that house sell for that amount? We've, you know, that's kind of devaluing the property. And the house is on the water these days. I mean, real estate, you know, has gone up. They don't make front water property anymore. Well, anyway, when you buy your house for that and then you do the rest of the deal in cash, you know, that kind of hurts your neighbor like me if I should go to sell my house. So anyway, as you can see here, you know, it's a little darker. It is a little deeper water. My neighbor seems to have no problem getting on the dock there. But I think he's a little deeper than we are. But when you go over here, you see it starting to get a little shallow. But as you go this way, you can see where the light water is. And it's very, very shallow. He's wanting to go out further out there, further than what the law says you can do, because he has a 42-foot cigarette boat that he never even told us about and kind of hiding that from us. And I feel like, you know, if you want to be a good neighbor, just talk to your neighbor and be honest instead of sending me a Harry and David's cheese and salami gift and complaining about we're costing you money to have to stow your boat. That's not our problem. I want to be a good neighbor. But when you, you know, start, you know, doing things without a permit with all your exterior doors that you need a permit for, don't act stupid and think, oh, well, I'm, you know, from New York and, you know, oh, you know, play it off. I don't know if you had a permit or not. Don't know. We saw doors being replaced. And where you live in Florida and on the water, everything, you know, is coded and due to hurricanes. I mean, codes change all the time. So, you know, I mean, I'm not a game player, but if you want to play games, I mean, you know, let's play Monopoly, I guess. You know, so but as you can see, he's if the boat was the boat dock was smaller and further up. Yeah. But that is a dangerous area. The sheriff's office is right down there by Salt Rock to the left of me, to the south of me. And I can't tell you how many times a day and night that the police go by and they fly by. And the other day over the weekend, there was three flying by one, two, three. And yesterday, I don't know if you can show any footage when I was home and it was great timing, but I don't know how long the barge was. But ballpark, it was at least over 150 feet long. He was going behind our house very slowly because it is the Narrows. So you do get a lot of action back there. You have caddies over there that bring in a lot of boating traffic. So the boating traffic, because it's a dock and dine and you don't have a lot of places that have dock and dine, but with a lot of dock space. So a lot of boats are sitting out there circling in the channel waiting to get a boat. That's just what they do. So and then you have to dodge people that fly by all the time not abiding, you know, the no wake zone. So, I mean, yeah, you get drunk people, you get people that shouldn't even be boating and don't shouldn't even own a boat. They don't even know what they're doing. So you have all kinds of action. You do have the boat rental place over there. God forbid nothing happens, but so many people that rent those boats don't even know what they're doing. They can't even pull it into the dock. They'll pull it up to the dock and then the guy will jump on and pull it in for them. So you have a lot of non-experienced people all around the back there in the Narrows. And you have kayakers, you have paddle boarders, and you also have people that jump off in the channel like a dum-dum and go to the bathroom. So, I mean, there's just sometimes you have people jump off the clubhouse dock and they swim over drunk to the, I mean, that's their problem, but, you know, over to Caddy's. But, you know, I understand. I love boats. We're boaters. There's nothing wrong with having a boat. But first of all, when you don't even tell us what kind of boat, and it's a power boat. When I first, you know, met them, I saw a truck and I said, oh, are you into boat racing? No. Well, I, you know, after I got a picture of his boat because my neighbor, Rima, to the right of him, to the north of him, offered that because I said, you know, how do you feel about this? Because, you know, you want to talk as neighbors, how do you feel? This is where we live. She's lived there for 49 years. I've lived there for 26 years. And, you know, you just talk about these things. But, you know, water does come up to our seawalls. And sometimes we have very high tides and there could be king tides. Sometimes there's very low tides, depending on what's going on in our universe and the orbit and, you know, full moons and all of that. But, yeah, I just, you know, for him to not even offer that information and try and pull a fast one and then act, you know, like, I don't want to accuse anybody of acting a certain way. But I feel like they've been dishonest and, you know, you're not going to buy me. Don't buy me a gift. I don't want your cheese and your sausage and I don't want to hear your complaints about, you know, you're going to have to pay all this money to stow your boat. That's not my problem. I mean, when we moved in, I mean, we looked at, you know, all those things and bought a boat. But we did everything, you know, lawfully. We had permits for everything. But here he's wanting to go further out and, you know, I don't even see how the county could even write off on something like that. First of all, I mean, that's dangerous. Second of all, I mean, how can they do that in the narrows? And I do see that I also got this from my neighbor, Rima, because she asked questions and he offered, you know, pictures and answered some of her questions. But I decided not to go there and I've been trying to coexist and keep to myself because I figured there was going to be a fight and an argument over this. But this dock that you see here in the light gray seems to be okay. It says keep light gray section, original dock, remove dark gray sections. What are we looking at here? Oh, can you, oh, this is the, is that better? What dock? What place? This is the drawing of his dock. This is the drawing of his dock, Mr. Smith. Dock, Mr. Smith. Dock that he, dock and slip that he wants. He's proposing. Yeah. Okay. So the land would be to the right? Um, let's see. Okay. So, yeah. The gray would be where the dock is now? Yes. So I would, my house would be over here to the left, to the south of them, and he would be to the right of me to the north. So, um, this is what I got from Rima because, you know, I called her and wanted to chat with her about this situation. And it looks like the dock that the former house flipper, um, put on here, he didn't have a permit for, so it looks like the dark gray has to come out no matter what. Um, but, uh, but anyway, I mean, I just, you know, if you have to come here and figure it out and try and, and, and get your way and do whatever you need to, you know, so be it. But, you know, I'm, I'm here just saying that, you know, one back to this and let's see if I have, um, oh, well, I do have a picture of your boat now. So, because he never offered it and you can't see the full, if you can flip the picture. Oh, it's upside down. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. This is the boat that he decided not to ever tell us about. Um, you can't see the very tip of it in the very back. Um, but you know, they kept that from us. And if you want to be a good neighbor and, and everything, you know, let, let, let's talk. But, you know, if it was a shorter dock and a smaller boat, you know, I'm okay with that. But when you have to make excuses saying, you know, you don't have enough water. Well, I don't have a lot of water either. And I'm pretty far up to, you know, close to my seawall, which I'll go back to that. My seawall is here. My boat is here. Um, so, you know, I think there's being, you know, an excuse being made going all the way out here. When you could, you could have a smaller dock and have a boat further up here. And if you look at, yeah, like I'm really organized. I told you I wasn't going to be that organized. Um, so, and I'm going to just point at houses instead of, um, naming names. Can everybody see that? Okay. Okay. So here's my property here. Here's my boat to the south of Mr. Smith's dock right here. And as you could see, you could see the water and the darker areas. And that tells you, um, you know, that there's more depth and there's more depth here. Now the further that you go north, the land extends out more. And as you get to the lighter parts that shows you, it's very, very shallow, very shallow, even more shallow and shallow. Now the, um, red roof house here, he has a longer dock, but he has, I don't know how long the dock has been there. I really don't pay attention to all that. I kind of just, we live there and mind our own business and enjoy life like the rest of them. But, um, you could see he has a very small boat. I don't know what kind of boat, what size it is. I would say anywhere from 18 to 21, 22 feet. Um, well, it looks like, and I guess he got approval from both neighbors. So he was able to get that dock. I had assumed, and he's an attorney. So I would assume he would do things correctly. Um, but as you could see, he has no water there at all. And he had to go out that far, which is still pretty shallow to even get a boat. Lift there to, to get his boat on a lift. But when you go out here, it starts getting deeper and it's getting deeper, getting deeper, getting deeper, getting deeper here. Here he is there. I don't see why he, I mean, if he wanted to go out a little bit, I, I'm okay with that. But I guess he wants to have his 42 foot cigarette boat. So therefore he's trying to, you know, bypass some things with the codes and the laws and go much further out. And, um, the boat dock would probably, and lift would go out as far as the clubhouse, uh, boat dock here. And as you can see, my mind doesn't go out that far. But you have to really kind of be back there in the water and kind of really get a ballpark, you know, view. Um, but, um, it is very, it is very dangerous in here. You see stuff happen all the time. And, um, like I said, I'm, I'm okay with a smaller, you know, shorter dock and a smaller boat. But, you know, it's not my fault, my problem. I don't want to get into having problems with neighbors and lawsuits and, and all of that. But, you know, sometimes you have to do what you have to do to protect yourself. And, um, I feel now that, you know, it came to this, that they're really not that honest of neighbors when you have to, you know, keep things. And then you're saying that, you know, rubbish and stuff is going to water. All kinds of stuff goes in the water. Leaves go in the water. Yeah. I rake leaves in the water. Um, yeah, pumpkin. Okay. Halloween time. Feed the fish. Um, so anyway, um, we can give whatever excuse we want. I just basically, why does the dock and the boat lift have to go all the way out there and those narrows? Because it is very narrow. And, um, you know, you just never know what's going to happen. And it can get very, you know, scary back there, especially on the weekends when there's like tons of boats, like tons. And then you have the dock and dine. That's one of the biggest dock and dine besides Frenchies. If you go to Clearwater on the intercoastal side, they have quite a few docks, but there's salt rock. You can get a couple of boats there. But when it comes to dock and dine, caddies, which used to be called the pub, has, as you can see over here, um, over here, uh, there's, there's a lot of, um, you know, areas to pull up and dock and dine. Um, but, uh, I, I don't want to be a jerk and come off as being controlling in any way. I'm just voicing my opinion and I've lived there for 26 years. So, um, I lived there for a long time. He hasn't. When you come down or move from a different state, there's different laws. There's different everything. And, um, you just can't move in somewhere and all of a sudden have it your way and take control and do it your way. Um, we all have to abide by the rules and we all have to get permits, but I guess he wants a permit and to go beyond, um, the length that you should be building. And, um, so, so anyway, I do see that, um, some neighbors went ahead and, um, objected. And I don't know if you have a picture of the house with the objections, but I think you had like lines with little red dots, the people that you received letters from. And I, I'm wondering if you're missing a couple, but I'm not 100% sure. Um, I know you said that, um, myself, uh, the likenesses, that's two. And then I think he said the, um, oh, the Rossi's that's three. And then, um, the Bruce's that's four. I think he said the house with the red roof objected, not 100% sure there that's five. But I know another neighbor that lives a couple houses down and I know that there was an objection there. Did you have that on? You're not going to be answering, uh, just testify to what you know. You've already seen what's going on in the record. Okay. So we're not here to verify your suspicions. Okay. You had, you had, I got it. Oh, you got it. I understand exactly what you're saying. Okay. And I'm saying we're not going to answer the questions to verify your suspicions. Got it. Got it. You say somebody else did it and they're not here and nobody else has objected neither the county. So. Okay. Well, I do have a copy of a letter, um, for this house, this doc here. Um, you have a copy of the letter, which hasn't been timely submitted. I presume. Right. You know, I'm not sure, I'm not sure about that. If it's, if it's a new letter, uh, you know, I'm not going to let you put it in there. Um, I'm not sure. Can I give you the date? I'm. Who's, who's, who's the letter from? It is from the Rantman's. I haven't heard the name Rantman. Carolyn? Um. We don't have it. So I'm not going to let you, uh, testify onto the Rantman's unless they're here and they want to testify, but. Okay. Okay. Well, as I was looking at that, that picture of that chart that you have, it looked like there might have been one or two missing, but I don't know that. But we are neighbors. And, um, I, I understand what you're saying. And thank you for letting me know. Cause I'm, I'm a talker. And I, I, is there anything else that you have to tell us something new? Um, so basically, um, I'm going to go over the letter that my husband and I put together and just making sure that I, you know, pretty much touched on everything. And we, um, it's submitted, uh, two letters and it looks to be one on October 10th of 2025. Um, would you be able to tell me if you got my, this letter of mine? Is that? Is that? What's that? That should be included. Yeah. I, I have them both there. Yeah. It was an email. I think you're talking about the March 16th email. I have the letter. Um, the letter dated October 10th, 2025. Yeah. Okay. And then there was, and then there was one other one. And that was an email on Monday, March, um, 16th was the second one with the objection. But, um, that's, uh, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. And, um, yeah, I, I still object and, and I think that is, uh, my final curtain call. Put a little humor into it. Just hang in there, Ms. Yanger. You don't get away that easily. Mr. Smith, do you have any questions? Yes, I do. Yeah. If you could just stay there. To the left to the right. You, you, either way. I don't think. Okay. Any questions about what she testified? Yes, I have several. Carol, did you successfully obtain a variance for your boat dock due to shallow water? You know what? You can look that up, but you know what? You can look that up. That's public record. You don't, you don't know? You know what? You can look that up. Do you, do you know? You're not my attorney. But I'm at, I'm the judge and I'm asking you a question. Do you know? I don't have that date on me. I'm asking you. Do you know? My husband handles all of that. I got it. So you don't know. I don't have the date on me. Okay. So then you thought it, you, you got a variance, but you don't know when. I, it's in 2020 when we redid the dock. Okay. Um, and the boat lift. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I just, the exact date. Good enough. Nobody's expecting you to know any more. Go ahead. Yeah. I wasn't looking for the date. I'm an honest guy. I'd like to correct the record on some things. So the part that you said I came to you and said that you had to sign. That's true. But you also left out the part that you had to sign. I said in order for me to obtain a variance. So I wasn't demanding that you sign. I said in order. Ms. Smith, I'm not going to let you explain. Okay. You can do that in your closing. Just ask real questions. Okay. So I didn't demand that you sign, did I? Actually, that was my husband. I can't speak for my husband. Okay. But you already did. But you said you were, you were, you were let, you were leaving the next morning and needed it to be signed before you went back to New York. That's what my husband told me. And do you believe that you have a right to dictate what kind of boat that I own? You know what? You never told us what kind of boat, but you are my neighbor. But if, you know what? I'm not going to get you to that. That's not my question. My question is, do you believe you have a right to dictate what kind of boat I have? It doesn't matter what kind of boat you have. Mr. Smith, I'm going to find that to be argumentative. Okay. Unless you could give me some reason that's relevant to that. Okay. The two boat slips that you have next to me, do you feel right that you have, you have a right to have two boat slips and me not have any? You know, that's not fair to say. I've been there 26 years. I got a permit for everything. I had the Army Corps of Engineers out there. And we went about everything in the right way to get that done. So, I'm not saying, oh, I don't want you to have a boat at all. I mean, I love boaters. I love boats. But where you're wanting to put the dock that you want and your lift, you're wanting to take that pretty far out into the intercoastal. And you were saying that you don't have any water, but water does come up to the seawall at High Tide because we have the same seawall or neighbors. Did you see my picture that I showed of the water out within three feet of the end of the dock where it was all dry land? Yes. There's always been a little beach on that side of the main groves where the main groves have been actually pretty ruined and real hacked up. But that's another story that I don't want to get into right at this time. Okay. I have no further questions. Thank you. All right. You're done. Yes, I'm done. You can have a seat. Okay. Would you like to speak? Would you like to speak? You want to speak? Okay. Five minutes? Yes. Mr. Smith, we're going to take a five-minute recess, okay? How about we do like 315? Is it 310 or a little bit? Okay, six or seven minutes, right? Yeah. Communications, please stop recording. We're back on the record? Yes. We're up to any additional? Yes. We have one more. Mrs. Hilda Gratman come up. Ms. Brinkman, if you could just come up here. Right there. Right into the microphone. That microphone's fine. Just state your name, ma'am. Hildegard Grantman. One second. Say that again. Hildegard Grantman. G-R-A-N-T-M-A-N. German, Hildegard. Okay. I see you have a letter there, a statement. Yes. My husband mailed this letter on March 12th with an objection, and apparently you didn't get it, so he has medical issues, so couldn't come. And so I came, and I'm handing him the letter, because you didn't get it, but he did mail it March 12th. So you and your husband lived together? Yes. Do you disagree with any of the, what your husband wrote down? Do you disagree with any? I can't hear real good, what did you say? Do you agree with whatever your husband wrote? Yes. Well, yes. Okay, so as opposed to you reading that, you want to put the letter in? Yeah. Okay, Mr. Smith? Do you take a look at the letter so she doesn't have to read it? Okay. Take your time, Mr. Smith. Do you have any questions you'd want to ask her about what's in that letter? All right, I'm going to accept the letter into evidence. Can we get that marked? Yes. Just pass it to me? I think that would be at the A3, I guess. Thank you. C. C. No, it's not hers. No, this is A3. No. Object or O? No, I'm going to put it as C4. It's not for the county because that's where we have the staff reports to the others. Okay. C4. I was not planning on doing this today at all. No, you don't need to speak. I thought you had the letter. No, we took the letter, you're good. Yeah, you're good. You can sit down. First of all, this was my mother-in-law's house and she bought it in 1985. The dock was the same since 1972 when the house was built. We did not get a variance. We did not extend it. We do not have a boat. They used to have a boat and they used to have to wait for low and high tide in order to take the boat out. Okay, now let's stop you here. I didn't think you wanted to testify. Now you want to testify. Oh, I don't know. You got to make a decision here, ma'am. Okay, I'll testify. Okay, then let's, you want to put this into evidence? Yes. Okay, let's get a copy of this for Mr. Smith. Okay. Or at least hand it to him. Okay. All right. Continue. Okay. So, should I repeat what I just said? That's okay. We have it on the record. Okay. So, we didn't get a variance on our dock. And I've, there's, all I'm going to say, and I'm not going to, we've seen the pictures. Caddy's has a lot of, we sit out there in our Florida room, we're three doors down. We observe for hours and hours what goes on in the intercoastal. Boats go fast. They pass each other. They're sitting out in front of that area. It's like a rounded area where his dock wants to come out to. And you can have five, six, eight boats sometimes. And then you've got some boat going through or jet skis going as fast as they possibly can and having a lot of near misses. So, I think you know all that and we've presented that, but I've observed it personally. And years ago, I can't remember, maybe it was 30 or 35 years ago, people were going too fast and five kids got killed right back. Ms. Griffin, where's your property in relationship to Mr. Smith's? Three doors down. North or south? Three doors down? North. North. Where it comes to the end, are you the last house at the turn? No. Or before that? Yeah, there's the red house, then our next door neighbor's house. And the red house, I just want to say they got a variance for that dock. I got it. The Narrows opens up there. It's wide. I got it. Okay, I'm sorry. I just wanted to make sure I do what you asked to. Go ahead. But the only other thing I want to say, yes, the Narrows is this wide. Yes, in an ideal situation, if the boats would stay there, it would be great. They don't. They don't stay in that little path, you know, and there's a lot of near misses with the way people drive today. The narrow path being the two straight lines between channel markers. Yes. They don't stay there. I mean, I've had them come around, almost hit our dock, you know, because they're avoiding other boats that are either waiting, the boat rental people or the Caddy's people. And it's just, if you look at the picture, there's this area, and if there's another dock out there, I don't know how these people are going to navigate. But it really, it affects me. But if something happens, you know, I just, it's the Narrows for a reason. There's a no-wake zone for a reason. Especially now, these two or three months, they just don't follow it. The speed limit, the way the boat should go. And you're just putting another obstacle further out that is going to cause more problems. So, I don't, that's all I have to say. You know, we don't have a boat. I like our view, but it's kind of sad. I always told my friend who works for 9-1-1, you put a sheriff's boat out there, you can collect all kinds of money, because it's gotten worse over the last 10 years. So, that's it. That's okay. Wait there one second, Ms. Grantman. Mr. Smith, would you like to ask any questions? Just one. Please come up to the microphone. I didn't catch the beginning, so I'm not sure exactly where your house is, but it's... I'm three doors down from you on the water. It's on the water, right? Okay. Yep. And you've benefited from a variance and have a longer dock than the 37? No. That dock has been there since 1972 or 73 when the house was built. But back then, you had to have a variance because docks could only go to the 37.5 feet. So, your dock's 120 feet. No, what the builder did. Right. So, that dock has been that length since my mother-in-law bought that house in 1985. We have not extended it. Did you see the variance that I pulled up on your property, though, when I went through all of them? No. While I was up here... Do you want to show? I can bring it up. Would you like? Let us just show. Now, we recently... I will tell you, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, during the hurricane, a boat came down from Treasure Island and ran right over the middle of our dock and damaged the dock. Now, we had to get permits to fix it, but the dock was in the same footprint. I wish my husband was here. And what is your last name? Grantman. Yes, you have a 120-foot variance right here. Mr. Smith, if you could put it on the seal, what you're showing, so we can... There you go. Thanks. I've got some... Yes, I researched this for every dock along the waterway, and mine would be one of the shortest docks at 99 feet. Yours is 120 feet. I was told ours, I don't know, 120. And where does it show that this is this property, Mr. Smith? Very hard. These things are a little tough to read. That's why I asked. And I've just, for brevity, I've... Some of these things are 15 pages long, so I just... I presume that when you... Yeah. I can pull up the other pages, though, if it's necessary. Well, I can tell you that dock has been there since 1985, and if they had to... They did have to get permits, they ran over the middle of our dock, this boat, and landed in the red house. I got it. Mr. Smith's just... Yes. He didn't do anything to it. It's hard to tell, but there's the address. There's the address right there. Is that your address, Mrs. Grantman? Is that right? Yes. Okay. All right. Any other questions? That's it. Are you done? Yes. Yes. Thank you, Mrs. Grantman. Can I ask if there's any... Please, please do. That's what I like. Is there anyone else that would like to speak? I believe, Magistrate, this is Mrs. Smith, right? Yes. Christy, Mr. Smith's wife. Do I need to be sworn in or anything? Yes. Oh, you haven't spoken yet? Please state your name for the record. My name is Christy Smith. I live at 10434 Sovereign Drive. Mrs. Smith, raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm that the testament gift today would be the truth and nothing but the truth? Yes. Thank you. Are you also on the owner of the property? Yes, we are. Go ahead. No, you said you are also. Yes. Both of you and your husband. Yes. Go ahead. So we bought the home, checked all the boxes for us, water access. We had about three weeks to move in before we headed back to New York. We usually leave May 15th, 12th or 15th. And we returned the last week of October. So it is approximately six and a half months. But we had three weeks to scramble and get things out of the condo and get the house clean and get everything moved in. And during that time, we each spoke with Carol and... With who? Carol Yanger. Okay, Carol Yanger. Okay, got it. Yes. And she was telling me all about her dock and how they went through all this permitting and got these extra pilings so they could get a cabin cruiser. She said it was a catamaran today, but she had told me cabin cruiser. The slip is 45 feet long for that and 24 feet wide, so that will be a significant sized boat. And in talking with her, we had been out on the dock. We would rest at the end of the night and have a drink. And I noticed, like, a pineapple over there gets hacked off like a cocktail drink and ears of corn and all these things floating. I said, oh, my God, is all this trash? Do boaters just throw this over? Does it come from the restaurant? And I asked her about it. I said, do you see all the trash? She goes, what are you talking about? And when I told her, she goes, oh, I'm feeding the fish. I feed the fish. Well, it doesn't go to the fish. It washes up and it attracts rats and opossums and raccoons. And this is relevant to the variance in what way? Well, just that she's calling, basically insinuating that we're a liar and we're talking about all the debris that's washing up causing navigational issues and the fact that she does have a variance that she just got in 2017 and 20. And it will impact our view. Their dock is much longer than the 37.5 feet that everyone keeps mentioning this number, but they all have much longer. Now, this will obstruct your view? If they have a boat, if you, I'm not sure, my husband had presented a picture when we look at the neighbors. But their pilings are immediately right there on our side. So when we look out, that's the closer side of our house. So that would be in our view, too. Any one of these docks where these people could add boats. It's been permitted for a wide structure. For a very large structure. Let me ask you this. So view would be important to you? Yes and no. I mean, we love watching the boats. We love watching the birds land in our mangroves. We're thrilled to see that. So you're concerned about the obstruction of your view? No, what I'm really concerned about is the fact that they're saying our boat will be in their view, but their boats are in our view also. I feel like it's all part of living on the coast and the fact that they've got a big slip there ready for getting that boat, you know, I feel like it's kind of, you can't have a boat, but we have a boat and we have plans and we've already got this large dock for a boat to travel. And I just feel like when they say it's going to be, our boat will be in their view, every single dock or boat up and down the coast is in our view. When you look across, there's docks everywhere. Let me ask you this, Mrs. Smith, just to, you know, crystallize the issue. You read the ordinance that the dock could only go out 50% of the width of the property. Yes. Why do you think, what's the purpose of that? Why just 50% of the width of your property? What is the county's concern? Is it blocking view? It's probably so that people don't put up a big giant structure. It doesn't have to do with a giant being long or far out? I don't know. Maybe it's for excessive. However, if everyone else has the long dock or a boat. Well, if your property was, you know, half a mile wide, you understand what I mean? Well, you could go out pretty far before it would affect views. Right, right. And I guess that's part of it. When it's a long, thin dock, they're still looking over it. And when things are further away, it's less of, if something, if we have a billboard right here, you can't see past it. But if the sign is over 15 feet away, you do see more around it. And I do feel if the county grants variances for people to have something longer due to, we have huge oyster beds there and mangroves. We cannot dredge. We've inquired about dredging. You know, if there's special structures or things that get in the way to preserve the natural bank or the animals, they've granted variances to other people to preserve those things. We just feel that we should be entitled to the same variances or the same exceptions. Anything else? That's it. That's it. Thank you. I presume, I don't consider this a witness against you or you don't want to ask her any questions, do you? Is there anybody else? I'm sorry. Hold on. Ms. Collette, did you want to ask her any questions? Go ahead. I don't think there's anyone else that wants to speak. No one else? All right. Then, counsel, are you going to give me a summary or? Thank you, Magistrate. I just want to clarify for you the county's role in looking at this variance application. So, county staff are set to review the seven criteria that are, I believe it's seven, one, two, three, five, six. The criteria within our land development code in 138-231. I'm sorry, could you, section number? 138-231? 138-231. Yes, that's correct. The one that's in the code here, right? Yes. So, those are the variance criteria that county staff are to work through to determine whether or not they believe that those criteria are satisfied. So, this is an independent review. One thing to clarify is that pursuant to section 58-539, which is the variance provision within the water navigation regulations. 58-539? Yes. When looking at G, subsection G, I'm going to skip the first sentence, and it actually states that variances shall not be deemed to set precedence for other applications should they be either standard applications or those requiring variances. So, I want to make that clear that, you know, county staff takes an independent review of these variance criteria without looking at, you know, what variances have been granted in the past to other. That would be against our code. I understand your point. Go ahead. And so, I just wanted to make that clear. Additionally, you know, county staff is charged with looking at the dock plans that were submitted. Water and navigation does not have any jurisdiction over boating, over boats. That would be more in the area of FWC, so Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation. Also, falling under FWC's jurisdiction would most likely be wakes. Trash that's been brought up, again, may be something either county code enforcement or FWC, I'm not exactly sure, but that would fall outside of the jurisdiction of water and navigation, solely looking at the dock application. So, I just wanted to make sure that that was clarified as far as what county's role has been in reviewing the dock application, the application for the variance. And again, county staff was of the opinion that all of the criteria within section 138-231 of our land development code were satisfied. That's all. Justice 138-231? 231, yes. Have been satisfied? Yes. Is that what you're saying? Is that what you're saying? That county staff is of the opinion that those criteria have been satisfied. And that's stated… Really? Special conditions that the circumstance exists which would be accrued to the land structure of building, Bob, has been satisfied? Is that what you're telling me? That's… Yes. County staff, this was submitted within our staff report. Our county staff submitted it within their staff report. All right. Let me get that out. Do you have the staff report? When you say the actual staff report… In the actual staff report, it should be page two. All right. Let's see where I'm at. And if you have specific questions, I may call staff up to answer those. Just give me a second here. Okay. Go ahead. I understand these are staff's comments that they don't have those type of objections. Okay. Go ahead. I just wanted to clarify that as far as what staff reviews and also jurisdiction of what specifically we're here for today regarding variance to the DOC application. That was it. That was all. Unless you have further questions. Let me ask you a question here. A second here. I've… I know there's been quite a few things submitted today. Yes, there is. I'm looking for… Here we go. Okay. 58-555, right, B? That's why we're here? Yes. Following…the following additional design criteria shall apply only to those private docks in the unincorporated part of the county. A. Private docks are to be constructed in the wards of counties…in the waters of the county shall be constructed so that the length of the dock, excluding tie poles, shall not exceed from the mean high water line or seawall of the property further than one-half of the width of the property at the waterfront. This requirement may be waived by the county provided that signed statements of no objection from both adjacent waterfront property owners have been submitted. And so the staff has not received those… That's correct. …because they're obviously objecting, right? Correct. So that's where we are… Correct. …and the variance is necessary to proceed further, right? Correct. Okay. And this is a variance that county staff could not grant on their own. That's correct. There are certain variances within our code. That's why it's in front of me. Yes. I got it. Okay. Any other argument? Anything else you want to point out? Nothing further, Magistrate. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Smith, anything more? Do you want to tell me? Not that you have to. A couple of points I'd like to… Take your time. …to put on this. I lived in Florida for many years when I was younger. I've got a lot of family here. Moved up to Niagara Falls area of New York. Been back here for about six years, but just recently bought the place on Sovereign Drive. Followed the process to the letter, the best that I believe. I think we've done all the right things. Water and navigation has approved us on all issues. We've applied for the bare minimum length. And I actually have some reservations about the length that I should have gone a little bit further. But I just sensed that this was going to be an issue, so we got the bare minimum. I don't know that… I don't expect at my age that I'll have this boat much longer. So the next boat that I go to get, if this is prejudiced by the type of boat that I have now, will become a problem for me for the subsequent boats that I get. We just want what our neighbors have, the ability to have the right to keep a boat behind our house. Right now it's completely unrealistic for any size boat without this variance. It sounds like the only two things I haven't done, according to the objections, is get the type of boat that they would approve of and live in the neighborhood for 20 years first and get to build relationships with all the people. I don't have that type of time. I don't have a runway in my life at this point. I'm not laughing at you, but I can say I appreciate that. But I do appreciate that, you know, neighbors want to feel comfortable in everything like that. Under the circumstances, there just wasn't that type of opportunity. But we hope that we've demonstrated everything, that we've done the right thing, and that we do in fact have a significant hardship as a result, and ask for your approval and granting our variance just as every other dock up and down the waterway in that immediate area has been previously granted, and ours will be smaller. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Smith. I don't think there's anything else, counsel? Nothing first. Okay. With the matter closed, I'll be preparing an order most likely next week. Okay. I'm not going to delay this. I want to do some research, and I'll see that both of you will get it by mail. You have their addresses, right? Yes. We have his address. We'll get it out to you, and we'll take it from there. Okay. Communications, please stop recording.