Welcome to Pinellas County Code Enforcement Special Magistrate Hearings. Special Magistrate is charged with conducting hearings to determine whether an alleged violation of the county code has occurred in order to meet that obligation. All parties of the representatives will be allowed an opportunity to be heard on matters relevant to the alleged violation. All witnesses offering testimony and presenting evidence will be required to swear or affirm that the testimony today provides the truth. The order of presentation begins with the county presenting the evidence of the alleged violation and then the respondent shall present his or her case. Both parties have an opportunity to cross-examine all witnesses. The Special Magistrate may question any witness. Clerk will announce the name of the case from the agenda. When you hear your case called, please respond by coming to the podium. With your representative and or any witnesses to be sworn in when addressing the Special Magistrate, please speak clearly into the microphone. Any person who decides to appeal the decision of the code enforcement Special Magistrate with respect to any matter considered at this hearing will need a record of the proceedings. For such purposes may need to ensure that a verbatim record of the proceedings is made, which record includes the testimony and evidence upon which the appeal is based. Such record is not provided by Pinellas County. Call the case, please. Good morning. My name is Caroline Gonzalez, and I am the Deputy Clerk for today's hearings. Item 1, dangerous dog classification, euthanasia order appeal, Department Animal Services, matter dangerous dog hearing, case number CCM-26-00035, owner, seller Robert P., seller Marsha L., notice address, seller Robert P., appellant, seller Marsha L., 7971 Causeway Boulevard South, St. Petersburg, Florida, 33707, and Betsy Shaw, victim, 3234 40th Way South. St. Petersburg, Florida, 33711, shawbetsy144 at gmail.com, and Pinellas County Animal Services, 12450 Ormerton Road, Largo, Florida, 33774. Let the record reflect that Ms. Betsy Shaw is on Zoom. Marsha Seiler here. Please come up. Good morning, Magistrate. David Brer on behalf of the Pinellas County Attorney's Office. Animal Services will be proceeding on the case today. Lieutenant Joe Birch will shortly come up. The only business the County Attorney's Office has today is advising the magistrate that the county is acting under Pinellas County Code of Ordinances 14-64 for dangerous dogs, and that subsequently Chapter 767 of Florida State Statute for dangerous dogs. The county is only concerning itself with the animal. There's no matters of civil liability being discussed today. Mr. Barrera? Yes. Could you spell your last name for me? Yeah, B-A-R-R-E-R-A. I got it right. All right. Thank you, Magistrate. With that, I'll have animal services come up. Okay, hold on a second here. Yeah, get away that easy, okay? Okay. Your name, man, for the record. Marsha Seiler. Michelle, before I forget, I'm going to swear you in now. I'll swear your witnesses as they come up, okay? Okay. Could you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear or affirm that any testimony you'll give today be the truth and nothing but the truth? Yes, sir. I understand you wanted to continue this case. Yes, sir. Do you want to make that motion? Yes, sir. Go ahead. Tell me. Do you want to continue it? And tell me when you first tried to continue the case and for what reason? Yesterday, I came in and tried to, actually, I went to this courthouse here and tried to file paperwork. And then they ended up sending me over to code enforcement because I didn't know where to go. And so I gave it to the lady sitting up over here. And I asked her if we could do a continuance because I'm not prepared. I haven't had time to get enough information and get statements from people. But if you don't, excuse me, want to continue, I'll be more than happy just to use what I have. Because I realized that... So if not, you're prepared to proceed? Well, I have no choice. Yes, sir. And you did this late yesterday? Yes, sir. Okay. Mr. Barrell, what's your position on this? Yes, magistrate. The county's position is that this letter declaring the animal dangerous was signed and received on March 20, 2026. Additionally, magistrate, pursuant to 14-64, all boarding costs are to be borne by the animal holder or owner. So continuance is just going to continue to increase the cost of boarding the animal. From the county's position, we've declared the animal dangerous. They've appealed our determination. That's why we're here today. We're ready to proceed. We don't believe that there's any further preparation that could occur that would change what happened. Okay. I'm going to deny the motion for continuance. And, Sally, the county's going to put on some evidence. You can sit over there, and then as they put in evidence, I'll ask if you want to object to it or not. Yeah. And I'll give you a chance to come up, so. Thank you. And so, magistrate, I'm just going to have Lieutenant Joseph Birch proceed. He's going to call his witnesses. He's going to handle the case. And if you have any further questions for the county attorney's office, just let me know. Understood. Thank you. Is it Detective Birch? No, it's Lieutenant Birch, magistrate. Okay. Lieutenant, B-U-R-C-H? B-U-R-C-H, that's correct. Would you raise your right hand, please? Do you swear to him that any testimony we give today be the truth and nothing but the truth? I do. You may proceed. I would like to begin with an opening statement, if that's appropriate. Would you like me to introduce evidence at this time? Do the opening statement first, if you want. So, we are here today at the request of Marcia Saylor, who is appealing the decision that there is sufficient cause for dangerous classification being assigned to her dog, Tara, as well as the county's decision to seek humane euthanasia in accordance with Florida State Statute 767.12. Pinellas County does understand this finding is a very difficult one. Pinellas County also realizes that everyone in this room is an animal lover. Pinellas County does not make these types of determinations without clear evidence and a thorough investigation being conducted into the facts of the case. Pinellas County believes that dangerous dog classification and humane euthanasia are in the best interest in public safety and accountability to the actions that have already occurred. According to the Florida State Statute 767, Part 2 is used in this act, unless the context clearly requires otherwise. One, dangerous dog means any dog that, according to the records of the appropriate authority, has aggressively bitten, attacked, or endangered, or has inflicted severe injury on a human being on public or private property. Has more than one severely injured or killed a domestic animal... Excuse me, Lieutenant. Yes. Can you stand between the mics, please? Oh, sorry. Thank you. All right. Sorry about that. Has more than one severely injured or killed a domestic animal while off the owner's property? Or has, when unprovoked, chased or approached a person upon the streets, sidewalks, or any public grounds in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack, provided that such actions are attested in a sworn statement by one or more persons and dutifully investigated by the appropriate authority? Two, unprovoked means that the victim, who has been conducting himself or herself peacefully and lawfully, has been bitten or chased in a menacing fashion. Severe injury means any physical injury that results in broken bones, multiple bites, or disfiguring lacerations, requiring sutures, or reconstructive surgery. Evidence and information provided here today will illustrate that on March 9th, Tara caused severe injury to Ms. Shaw, who, because of this incident, suffered some of the most gruesome injuries Pinellas County has ever seen. Ms. Shaw was conducting herself peacefully and lawfully. I mean, that's the end of my statement. I don't know if they would like to provide an opening statement as well. I'll let them do that at the beginning of their case. Okay. You want to provide the evidence at this time? You can present it, yes. Okay. Go slow. Okay. Yeah, is the projector working? I'm sorry? Will the projector be working for me to place the documents? Presume it will. Yes. Places documents facing up, yeah. So I'm going to be introducing Exhibit A. This is the license of the animal, Tara. Okay. Hang on a second here. License? Yes. Okay. So anything you want to say about it, or do you just want to present it? I just want to enter it into evidence, magistrate. Mrs. Seller, do you have any objection to Exhibit A? There being no objection, I'm going to accept Exhibit A into evidence. So for Exhibit B, I will be introducing the affidavit of Mrs. Betsy Shaw. Have you seen this document, Mrs. Seller? Yes. Do you have any objection? What's this basis of your objection? If you can just come up and speak to the microphone. Yes, if you can come up for the microphone. Thank you, Court. This affidavit was taken at the time that Betsy was still in severe pain, and from what this statement states and what her and I talked about, to me this would be an incomplete statement. I'm going to allow Exhibit B into evidence, and you'll have an opportunity to cross-examine her. She'll be here today, by the Zoom, on the statement. Okay, great. So for Exhibit C, this is just an internal animal services document, what we call an animal view report. Is Mrs. Seller seen this, provided a copy of this document? Yes. We responded to the public records request we received, and we turned over all documents that we would be showing here today. So that would be a yes? Yes. She has a copy. Have you seen Exhibit C here? No, sir. Did you come up here then? No, sir, I have not. You have not seen Exhibit C? No. Do you have an extra copy to show her? I don't know that I have an extra printout, but she can take that copy if she would like. Yeah. You can take it back to the seat and look at it if you want. Yeah, I'm not even sure what it is. Well, he's... Explain it again. So this is just an internal document of an animal's history with animal services. So basically, like, the dog's name, color, age, information like that, like when it came into animal services, what cases it's associated with, ownership, guardianship, licensing information, vaccination information, quarantine information. It's just like a general information document regarding an animal. Okay, so it shows on here also, too, that she had never been to animal control and... It will show all the times she had been to animal control, yes. Oh, you mean on a daily basis? No, just any time that an intake had occurred or an outcome had occurred. So one time, just one time? Yes. Okay. Then I'll take this. Okay, sir. Do you still object, ma'am? Do you still want to object? No, it's fine. Okay. All right. As long as the document... The... So this is the animal view report. Is that what we call this? That's correct, magistrate. I'm going to accept Exhibit C, the animal view report, and the evidence. So for Exhibit D, this is the photographs of injuries to Mrs. Shaw. Like, I just want to go ahead and warn everybody that these are very graphic. Um, I could introduce them individually as separate exhibits, or just Exhibit D, all photographs of injury, whichever you prefer, magistrate. Um, you could put them in... Just go slowly, but you could put photos. Okay. Could you explain when the photos were taken and who took them, generally, where they came from? Uh, so these were obtained from, uh, Mrs.... Sorry. Mrs. Shaw at the time, uh, shortly after injury. Obtained by her, or...? Um, I believe it was at the hospital staff. Yes. Um, I could... Let's see, uh, I've seen the photos, I think, uh, yesterday I got these. Uh, go ahead, do them slow. Okay. So this would be photo one. Ms. Seller, have you seen these before? Yeah. They keep making you get up. Oh, sorry. Yes, sir, I've seen these. So you've seen them before? Yes, we were given a copy of those. I was just going to give you an opportunity to look at them. No, I saw them. Oh, okay, you could stay there and sit down. I'll stay here for a second. I think she's going to go through them, I just didn't know if you had actually seen them. Go ahead, yeah, let's see them all. Are these, I can see them here, they're in the back too, okay. Okay. What am I looking at there, the back of the head, or...? Yeah, no, I believe that is, um, the neck. Oh, okay. Area. Okay, okay, the back of the head. Yes. Go ahead. It's the ear. I don't know. Hold on. Yes, this is, um, after sutures or reconstruction of the ear. It's the third photo. Go ahead. We'll put them all as D. This one. Okay. Right below the D? Is that what I'm looking at? That is, uh, like, right around the knee, yes. Is that upside down? What's that? Is that upside down? Uh, oh, yeah, there we go, I think. Yeah. I think that's upside down. Yes, this one right here. So this would be, this would be the ear canal. You can see right here, and the ear has been completely evulsed. Okay, I got it. I'm sorry. Um, and this was the back of the head before the sutures. Okay. And then, that was actually just a duplicate. Sorry. It's a duplicate. So take that? Yeah, it was a duplicate of the other. So take that one out of the pile. Yeah. And Lieutenant, if you could count out the amount of photos. Yeah, this was the same photograph. Just made an additional copy. Okay, well, take the copy out, the extra copy, right? What's that? I'm not going to put in two copies. Yes, no, no, Magistrate. Okay, I was just illustrating that I accidentally... I got it. Now, count up the amount you want to put in. Yes. It would be seven total photographs at the end of the record. Any objection, Mrs. Sellar? No. Okay. I'm going to accept, uh, Exhibit D being seven photographs into evidence. You can wait there for the next one, or you... I'll wait. Sorry, Magistrate, I got all shuffled around. Thank you, Todd. I dropped my pile. That's okay. A lot of it. I'm trying to rush you. So Exhibit E would just be the county's case report for the dangerous dog investigation. The case view report. That's correct, Magistrate. Okay. And if you... I have a question about this. Right there, about halfway down, a little further there, it says, to the left person number, to the right, it says date from. Do you see that? Um, so... It's right there above your finger. Go a little higher, higher. Yes. Higher, higher, higher than that. Right there, that date. Yes. 3-6. What's the... How did this form since the bite was 3-9? Oh, so this is, this is, uh, concerning ownership of the animal. Um, right here, you'll see ownership, guardianship, date from, and that's likely tied to a licensing. A license was purchased, uh, for the dog, rabies vaccination and licensing. Um, and that would trigger the ownership change under the case. Okay. Go ahead. And, uh, and so that would also be reflected further down where it says 3-6, right? Yeah. It's, uh, ownership, guardianship. Okay. Just trying to... Yeah. And this is one, two, uh, and the third page has some narrative? Yes, that's right. Okay, and that's from whom, this narrative? Uh, this narrative right here is from Officer Womack. Now, this is 3-19 and 3-20, right? Yes, that's correct. Both of them from Officer Who? Um, no, the first one was Captain Martin, um, who basically initiated the case. Oh, I see the name, I see the names on them. Yes, that's right. So basically, usually the top line of an activity like that is someone is dispatching it, and then the bottom line is the person who went to the case address and... I understand, so Mr. Sellers would benefit, um, and then on the next page, same thing? Uh, so the next page is, is memos. Um, these are, you know, like, anytime something is touched or done with a case, uh, memos will be added, phone calls, things like that. There's a name of who the officer was at the end of the case, right? That's correct. This is like your notes to the file. What's that? It's like your notes to the file. Exactly. Um, I'm going to call this the case view report. Mrs. Sellers, do you have any objection? No, but I never received a copy of it. Um, can we get her a copy to look at? I have a copy. She's more than welcome to have, um, the copy that I have right here. Just for today's purposes. Yes, absolutely. We'll see to the next, uh, document. So, um, exhibit F. Um, this is just going to be a similar document. It's a case view report for the bite quarantine and bite investigation. Case view report. That's what we just did was a case view report. Yes, but the, the case, there's a case view report for the dangerous dog. Um, and then one concerns itself with, um, rabies prevention. Okay, let's see that one. Case view 2, I'll call it, okay? We'll get F, right? We'll mark that F. Okay, so what are we looking at here? Uh, so this is a case view report. It's basically for a bite. Anytime we receive notification of a suspected bite, whether from the health department, police, victims, um, this is what's initiated is a, uh, rabies prevention protocol. Um, make sure animals are quarantined appropriately and no victims are at risk for rabies. Yeah. If you could turn the page. See them, yeah. Okay. All right, I see this. Yeah, give me the, oh, so there's the, these two are, these are additional narratives here, right? Yes, so this would be what initiated it, um, right here on 3-9 at 1948, um, basically an officer received a standby call from the police department. Okay, and the third page is the first time I'm seeing this document. Got it. These are different dates and things. Okay, we're getting out of this. Yes. The seller, have you seen this document before? No. Do you have an extra copy of that by any chance? I'll, I'll let her have my copy magistrate. Uh, do you have any objection to, uh, Exhibit F? Uh, who do they have down as the first person who called in the bite? Uh, you don't get to ask him questions on it. It's, I'm just. But it's on the paper, right? I, I, I got that. You can. Okay. Uh, if he testifies, you can cross-examine, uh, you can use it as part of your case or whatever. I'm just seeing if it's somewhat relevant here. They're testifying that these are the documents that were prepared in the normal course of, uh, of their investigation. That's fine. Okay. Exhibit F is accepted into evidence. Yes, absolutely. Um, no further evidence to be introduced, magistrate. How, how about the, uh, the actual, uh, the reason we're here, the, uh, the notice letter of the finding, you know? Oh, I, I did have the sufficient findings as well. Yes, that's, I just didn't prepare an exhibit for it. I don't know. I'm not trying to put your case on, but I'm sure Mr. I would have come back. I just want to keep it clean. It's the originals. It's actually part of the record already, since that's why we're here, but I'd like to put it in there to make it clear. I also have an exhibit G. That's correct. G would be the notice letter of, uh. Yeah, findings of sufficient cause. Okay. Mrs. Seller, this is what your, you appealed findings of the county that you appealed. It's one of the, it's the reason we're here today. I presume you received this, correct? Yes. Do you have any objection to this document? No. Okay. Exhibit G is accepted into evidence. My magistrate, we had no further evidence to introduce. Um, I'm just going to call my next witness, if that would be okay. Who are you calling? I've been calling Betsy Shaw. Okay. Uh, now she's going to appear on Zoom, Mrs. Seller, okay? You understand? Does she need to, no, does she, does she need to turn around to see it there? She's right here. Oh, you can see it there. Okay. Okay. Um, all right, let's get him on. Hi, Betsy. Can you hear me? Thanks, you may. I think you may be muted, Betsy. I'm sorry? Yeah. She's muted right now. I ain't doing anything. Yeah. Okay, let's get past that, all right? I'm not going to swear her in. She's muted. I want to make sure. Okay. Hi, Betsy. Uh, I believe, uh, the magistrate may need, uh, to have you swear in here. Yeah, just hold on a second here. Is my hand up? Before we get to that, do you have an attorney, Ms. Shaw? Yes, she does. My name's John Mulvihill there. I'm president on behalf of Ms. Shaw. Okay. Could you say that name a little slower, sir? Yeah, first name is John, J-O-H-N. Last name is Mulvihill. It's M, like Mary, U-L, V, like Victor, I-H-I-L-L. Thank you, Mr. Mulvihill. And you're, where are you right now, uh, just for the record? I'm in St. Petersburg. You're in St. Pete, I saw that name before somewhere. You're a Florida attorney, right? You represent Ms. Shaw as a witness? That's correct. Okay. Uh, Ms. Shaw, this is, uh, James Matthew, the magistrate. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Uh, she could, I'd like to, there you go. Uh, could you raise your right hand, please? Yeah, let me get my picture back on. Take your time. Okay. Yes. There you go, great. Uh, do you swear, firm, that any testimony will give today to be the truth and nothing but the truth? I swear. Okay. You can put your hand down and, uh, Lieutenant Birch here is going to ask you a few questions. Okay. Okay, Betsy, can you just state your name and address for the record, please? Betsy Shaw, 3234B, as in boy, 40th Way South, St. Petersburg, Florida, 3711. Thank you. Uh, can you just tell us what happened to you on March 9th, the day you were attacked? Well, as you know, I am a caregiver. I have been watching Robert, uh, while Marsha goes, uh, for rest. And, uh, this time was, uh, not the unusual. It was just that me and Robert were in the home and he said that he wanted to see his dog. He hadn't seen him, her, I'm sorry, in several days. So, before I start, I would let you tell you that I have fed that dog several weeks when Marsha would go away. In the last two years, at least three times, I was in charge. So we would, uh, Robert and I would go in and feed the dog and give it water and give her a chance to go outside and we would go out together to brush the dog and play. And we'd sit outside with her and, uh, she was never, ever aggressive to me. Never. And, uh, Robert enjoyed, you know, being with her. And so, uh, this time we went in to, uh, pat the dog. And Robert sat in a chair. The thing is, uh, she was being patted by Robert. And I stood to the back of the room. It's about, um, uh, eight by eight room, very small. And, uh, so I didn't want to disturb them. And I walked to the back of the room and I had a treat. So the dog saw the treat and jumped up for it. At this time, he did bite a tiny bit of my finger, even though the treat was on a large stick. So I said, Robert, I have to go get a Band-Aid. So let's, let's head out now. And I lifted my arm to help Robert up. It was like at a 45 degree. And, uh, at that moment I took one step to go help Robert up out of the chair. And, of course, this sliding glass door where, where he came in was right in front of Robert. So I took the step and the dog apparently bit my arm. I did not feel the bite. But as I took the step, I looked down and there's blood all over the floor. It was a white tile floor with red blood all over. And I felt my knees going because I can't imagine where all this blood was coming from. I didn't even feel the bite on my arm. So at that point I fainted. I've never fainted before in my life. But at this point I did faint and I fell right on my face. My nose had a bump and my arm, you know, protected me a little bit from the fall. As we know, we put our arm out even, even though I was fainting, I did that. And, uh, thank God, uh, there was no injury from the fall. I was out of it, uh, maybe 10 minutes. I have no recollection of, uh, how much time I spent on the floor. But when I woke up, the dog was biting me in the head and he bit my neck and I didn't realize any of this. So, of course, at one point, uh, he was trying to get my shirt off to, to have the blood from my shirt, uh, in his possession. And I finally took the shirt off. I threw it to the other side of the room so I could back out. And I did crawl out. I had to leave Robert in. And, of course, he was still, you know, upset. He kept saying, Tara, stop. Tara, stop. Well, uh, usually when Marcia says stop, he will stop. But this time the dog would not stop biting me. And he, he, he, I took my shoe off as I was crawling out. So, the whole thing was so quick. And I will give credit. I will give some, uh, testimony that when I finally looked back in to see if Robert was okay and the door was closed, he opened the door and the dog was still trying to get out. And, uh, the sliding glass door had to be closed again. And I told Robert to stay there. And when the ambulance, I called the ambulance with my cell phone I had in my pocket. And the son came up and took care of Robert and let him out of the room. Okay. So. And, uh, I was out of it. Uh, I don't know if I was awake in the ambulance or not. But we finally got to the hospital. They put me in the OR for four hours. So, Betsy, uh, speaking, speaking of that, so what type of injuries did you receive from this attack? I know we saw some pictures earlier, but can you describe what type of injuries? Yeah, the photograph shows the head has seven different scars where the scalp was lifted off and they had to staple it back on. And my ear was down below the neck hanging by a thread and I was bleeding profusely from my neck. He did not get into the carotid artery, thank God. Uh, but my face has been ripped right near my mouth, very large. And, of course, uh, it's because I fainted. Now, the only thing I will say in the dog's behalf, which I told Marcia that I didn't write on the original manuscript, is we noticed that we got in and Robert was patting the dog, we noticed that the dog was eating. And that is not a good time to be with the dog, I imagine, although I've been there several times and waited for the dog to finish eating so I could let her out. And in a past history, there's never been an aggressive growl or motion that she is not, you know, happy with me. But this time, there was, uh, no aggression on my part. There's no aggression to Robert. So, so, Betsy, just getting kind of... I was ready to help him out of the chair. And that's, that story. Uh, I will say in his dog's behalf that she's never been, um, upset with me before. So, Betsy, I just want to try and get back to the injuries. Do you recall about how many sutures and staples you received? I beg your pardon? Do you recall about how many sutures or staples you received? Oh, no, I don't. The nurses came in and told me what happened. I had, the doctor didn't tell me anything about how many staples, but they took them out about a week later. And they spent at least a half an hour taking staples out. Okay. So, um, who was in the home that day? Or more specifically, it was, was it, who was in the room when this happened? Nobody else was in the house. We were by ourselves. And this, this is not the first time that I've been watching Robert. Of course, for two years, uh, it would be about every other month. We were very familiar with each other. And of course, I would never harm or be aggressive with Robert. Yeah. So, uh, that kind of gets into my next question here, Betsy. So, about how many times have you been in the home before? I'd say six to watch Robert. Okay. Um, have the owners allowed you to interact with this dog before? You said something about feeding the dog with a stick. Well, he took the, the treat on a, at least the six inch stick. The treats come for this dog. And Marcia said I could give him a treat. So, I brought one in and the stick was long. And of course, I let go of the stick. But in the meantime, he, he took the stick totally in his mouth and just a tiny little bite on the finger, which it didn't upset me, but I did want to leave the room at that point. So, how has, how has this affected your life, Betsy? How has this incident affected your life? Of course, two months now I've been healing. And, uh, the pain was extraordinary. I couldn't lay my head back on a pillow. It would hurt so much. Uh, so I didn't sleep, of course, or have any rest. Uh, they had to give me morphine at one time. It was, uh, a very unusual, of course, situation. And I had, uh, no animosity towards the family. I just said, this happened, uh, and it doesn't affect our friendship. We wrote emails to each other and we hope that eventually we can get, uh, past this. And I really want to say how sorry I am this happened and it caused so much grief to me and to the family that I am totally sorry that it ever, you know, occurred and totally unhappy with the idea that, uh, Marcia will lose her dog. I'm so unhappy. But the thing is, once the dog has protected the family, which what people have told me, I, I believe they, they said that the dog was rotting over Robert and protecting Robert as it never happened before. But this is what the people have told me that protection of the family was in, in the dog's, uh, memory. Yep. Okay. Betsy, thank you. That was, that was all the questions I have for you, Betsy. Thank you so much. Uh, no further questions from the county. Mrs. Seller, she's going to ask her questions. Could she see Mrs. Seller? Does she need to turn around? Uh, is that monitor on? Oh, you can see her there. I, I, I, okay. Yeah, she's right there. Uh, this is, you, you, you can ask her questions, Mr. Short. Course examination as it's known. Betsy. Yeah. How are you? I said, how are you? Okay. Yeah, I've respirated. My wounds are pretty much healed, except for scars, of course. And I'm all 87 years old, and I, I'm still with my ear, but I am very happy that they sewed it on and stapled it. Very, very, very, uh, acute. I mean, they are very, very good at what they do at the hospital. Yes, because Anna talked with the doctor who was going to take you in to make sure that you were getting the best care you could. Is that, do you have a question for her? Yes, I do. Okay. Betsy, do you feel as though Tara should be euthanized? At this moment, I do believe he, she should be euthanized due to the fact that, uh, this one occurrence has given her, and people have told me this, that raised dogs, if the dog has a taste of blood, and they're not going to be protected. Hang on a second, hang on a second, Mr. Short, uh, you could ask her questions, but you're not going to be able, you could, you could say, well, you wouldn't be objecting, you'd say it's not responsive, okay, whether it be hearsay or not. I can't remember what the person was thinking, of course, but protecting the family was his job. Okay, Bets, hope to see you soon. I don't want to ask her any more questions. Okay, thank you. Uh, I have a couple, I have just one, one question, not for you, Ms. Seller. Uh, Mrs. Short, can you hear me? James Matthew, the magistrate? Yes. Stated earlier in your testimony that, uh, quote-unquote, the state of the state of the son was, came down during this incident, at the end, when you kind of woke up, is that correct? Yes, he came in when the ambulance was arriving. When the ambulance was arriving, but then later, you had said that there was no one in the house. No, he lives in a trailer, in the, when they had to remodel, they got a trailer, the flood had damaged their house, so the trailer was out front, he lived in the trailer. Oh, oh, oh, okay, so, uh, so, uh, so in other words, he, he wasn't, I just wanted to know if there's any witnesses there. He wasn't there when the incident occurred, he, he, he just came in afterwards. That's right. I, I don't have any other questions. Uh, do you have any questions for, in light of what I just asked you? The same goes for you, uh, Mr. Birch, if you want. I don't have any other questions. Betsy, did I, or did I not ask you to not have any action with that dog while I was gone, that Lance was going to be taking care of the dog a hundred percent? Objection here, say, magistrate. That's right, and I'll, uh, come up. All right, so you're looking, go ahead. Your Honor, or magistrate, objection here, say, the question calls for an out-of-court statement for the treatment of the matter. Yeah, well, what was the question, could you say the question slower? Hold on, stay right there, and then, Mr. Birch. I have a question, did I, or did I not, before I left, asked her not to interact with the dog, because Lance was going to be taking care of the dog, and so all she had to do was deal with my husband. So her, is that the question? Did you understand it? You're saying that's hearsay? Yeah, because she's trying to make a question about an out-of-court statement for the truth of the matter asserted. She's the witness. She's asking her, she's asking, this is the witness herself. But she's asking the witness about an out-of-court statement that she made to the witness. It's still an out-of-court statement that, how is she going to be able to confirm? Okay. She said it. She did confirm. Well, state it again, what your question is. I'm not sure, were you, what's your question? My question is, that before I left the house, okay, did I, or did I not instruct her? Her being Mrs. Shaw. Yes, Mrs. Shaw. When you left the house, you told Mrs. Shaw what? Yes, I instructed her that she didn't have to do anything with the dog, not to interact with her. She's in the room. Lance was going to take care of her. All she had to do was take care of my husband. Good. And you said that to her? Absolutely. And you're asking her, did you say that to her? Absolutely. And you're objecting to that? I think she said yes. Well, she's rephrased it, so. The original question wasn't that clear. I got that. I got it. Mrs. Shaw, did you understand the question? Yes. What's your answer? Ms. Sellers asking whether she gave you some instructions before when she spoke with you. Is that true or not true? I went in to help Robert get to pat the dog, and he was so happy and sat down. He patted the dog. Everything was fine at that point, you know, and I just was so happy that Robert had a chance to see the dog. Ask the question again. Talk in the microphone. All right, whatever. Yeah, go ahead. Betsy, I'm sorry, honey. I have to ask you the question one more time. I just need a yes or no answer, okay? Did I or did I not, before I left and walked out the front door, I said, Betsy, you don't have to worry about the dog, okay? My son's going to take care of her. Could you please? You're just there to take care of Robert. Did I not specify that before I left? Yes, you do. Okay, thank you. That's all I needed to know. Thank you. Any additional follow-up questions? No, thanks, sir. Can we let this witness go? You good with that, Mr. Burr? Okay, I'm going to let this witness go, okay? Mr. Mulville Hill, are you still there? Yes, I am, Your Honor. We're going to close the Zoom, unless there's something you need to tell me. No, there's nothing. I don't know if Ms. Shaw, I mean... I'm not going to let you cross-examine her or anything. I just want to give you the courtesy as a lawyer. I know I don't have standing to do that. I'm not here to do that, so... I just didn't want to shut you off. That's all. I'm just giving you a courtesy. Is there a reason why the court doesn't want Ms. Shaw to be present for the rest of the No, she could. Okay, fine. I didn't think she wanted to be. You know, do you want to sit here and listen to her? I don't know if she got me there. Okay. No problem. All right, keep the Zoom on for her. We just asked for the parties on the Zoom to be muted, but they can remain. Okay. Thank you. All right. The county has no further witnesses, magistrate. Give me a second here. Mrs. Seller, it's arresting your case, right? Yes. This is your case? Mrs. Seller, come on. You can make an opening statement if you want first, and then you can... I have a small... Please, take your time. Okay. We're here today regarding the classification of Tara as a dangerous dog and their recommendation of killing my dog. Tara was confined within the resident and was not roaming freely. And this incident occurred only after they entered Tara's room in a confined space and initiated a direct interaction with the dog. This is not about an uncontrolled or inherently dangerous animal. It's about a single, isolated, and highly specific set of circumstances that were created with the interaction and the restriction within the environment. The evidence will further show that Tara has no prior history of aggression, no pattern of dangerous behavior, and that her response was immediate and situational, consistent with a protective and defensive reaction to perceived movement involving her owner in close proximity. Under Florida law, a dog may not be deemed dangerous when the circumstances involved in provocation, improper entry, or a defensive response to protect a person. The fact in this case is squarely of those protections. Additionally, there arises serious concern regarding reliability and accuracy. Euthanasia is the most extreme and irreversible outcome available. It is not supported by the facts, the law. It is totally circumstantial presented here. This case is not about punishing the dog. It's about recognizing the difference between a dangerous dog and a defensive response upon specific conditions. I'd like to tell you a little bit about how I bought the dog and her as being part of the family. Can I do that? How's that relevant? Have I sworn that? Yes, you did. Yes, if it's relevant. It is, because my husband and I, when I bought her over in Arizona, and she is not just an American AKC dog. She is an American-Belgium crossbreed AKC dog. She's what you call a Z dog. They are very protective dogs. A lot of them get sold because they're bred in Arizona, so they get sold to the Arizona SWAT team in the police department. So when we brought the dog into the house, my husband and I, we always wanted to see how the dog would react to certain things. And I know exactly why, or at least I'm assuming why, the dog would have pulled Betsy's scalp, and that's because when I would play with the dog, I wanted to see how she would react, and I would lay down on the floor and pretend like I was not conscious. And she was trying to get me up off of the floor. She would come up, and she would pull on my hair or my shirt or whatever was there trying to get me up. Also, too, we used to, like, interact. We'd hold each other, and we'd yell at each other just to see if she would interact and, you know, have any aggressive responses. She never, ever did anything like that. I am so sorry that this has happened to Betsy. I can tell you that for sure. She's been my best friend for 25 years. So, but anyway, I wanted to let you know that this is the way the dog, it's embedded in her to be protective. And then over the years, my husband, with his declining health, she's even more protective over him. What's an opening statement? Can I, was, didn't, this is sure work for a service or anything? It's just somebody you knew that was taking care of your husband. She's just a friend who I have. Would you mind coming in and watching? She's a very good person. She has a great heart. She takes very good care of my husband. She makes sure, because he can't, he's 100% disabled. He can't bathe himself. He can't do anything for himself. Everything has to be done for him. He doesn't even get up and walk by himself. You have to go and you have to direct him. You have to pick him up by the hand and say, okay, let's go. So, no, Betsy's a very good person. And again, I'm so sorry this happened. So if he wanted to leave his room and go down and see the door, he would need someone to do that. Absolutely. He could not do that on his own. There is no way. But here again, I direct everybody who comes into my house, do not go into the dog's room. You can go in there all by yourself and she won't bother you all day long, okay? But I would not even go into a closed room with a German Shepherd. And here again, she was enclosed in that room. If she had been outside, none of this would have happened. Or if the door would have been open, none of this would have happened. Did you have any reason to believe that she was down there with the dog for any reason except that your husband asked her to take her down there? No, I have no, I have no. You have no idea. I have no idea. I wasn't even in country at the time this happened. Okay. I was out of country. My son and her and my husband were the only people there and he was staying in the RV that was in the driveway because we just have finished remodeling the house after those two hurricanes last year. Okay. I just don't want to see my dog put to death. If you want to deem her as a dangerous dog, then... No, I got to give you plenty of time at the end to make a summation. Anything else you want to say at this point? Not for an opening statement, no. Ms. Barrera, do you want any cross? Okay. You could sit. You could call the next witness. Hasiba? Hasiba? Can I... Yes, yeah, yeah. Just have her come out. I've known her also for the last 25 years. Okay. Get it out of my house. Please state your name. Hasiba Muratovich. You're going to need to spell that for me. H. H? H. She's spelling Hasiba. Hasiba. H-A-S-E-B. Hasiba? And your last name? Muratovich. You could spell that? M-U-R-O-V-I-C. O-V-I-C. Yes. Okay. And could you raise your right hand? Yes. Do you swear or affirm that any testament gift today would be the truth and nothing but the truth? Yes. Okay. You want to ask her any questions? You could just ask her to tell a story of what she knows, whatever. I'm going to make this easy for you, Ms. Would you just tell them what you know about the dog or about the situation, about the house, and what I always tell everybody. Yes. I know Tara a long time, and I always outside, been around her. Her being? Around her outside. Her? Yeah. The dog? Yeah, Tara, yes. Okay, let's call her the dog. She was around me, play, and then she never attacked me. She never do something. And then she also licked my feet, and I can't say just that. I don't know. It's nothing. House. Just dog. So you've been with the dog a lot? Yeah. Yeah. Outside. Always. Yes. How close? Where do you live in relationship to Mrs. Seller? I live almost 10 minutes for her house. And you're a friend of Mrs. Seller? Yes. And so when you went to the house, you played with the dog? Yeah, we was outside and then not inside, and she licked my feet, and she never bothered me. Okay, and never had any problems. Yep. Okay. I don't have any further questions. Do you have any additional questions in light of what I asked her? Mr. Barrera, do you have any questions? I'm sorry to interrupt you. No. Senator Birch, do you have any questions? Yes. When I ask you, you could always ask him. Okay. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Mr. Seller, my son. He'll go ahead and story up. He was there. Good morning, magistrate. How are you doing today? Hang on a second here. Sorry. State your name for the record. Lance Charles Edward Schrum. S-H. S-C-H. H-C-H. R-U-M as in Mike. You live in the trailer next, on the property? Well, I was staying out there because of, you know. That's what your mother says. I stay at the residence, but I just happened to be out there at the time. I'm just asking where you live is what I'm trying to get. Yes, 7971 Cosway Boulevard South. My apologies. No, you don't have to apologize to me. I just want to get it straight. It's important. Could you raise your right hand, sir? Do you swear or affirm that any testimony you give today be the truth and nothing but the truth? I swear. Go ahead. Tell us what you know about this. So, I have personal firsthand knowledge of Tara and her behavior. Tara has not shown a pattern of aggression. Tara has not shown a person on the date of the incident, Tara was located within the property. The actions taken by Tara appeared to be defensive in nature. I believe Tara does not pose an ongoing threat. Tara was confined within the residence, specifically inside the office area, and was not roaming freely. Prior to the incident, Betsy Shaw had been expressly instructed by Marsha Seiler not to interact with Tara. She was also informed that myself was responsible for Tara's care and handling during my mother's absence. Despite the instructions, Betsy Shaw chose to retrieve a treat for Tara and proceeded to enter the office where Tara was located. Betsy Shaw brought Robert Seiler into the office with her and closed the sliding glass door behind them, creating a confined and restricted environment. Once inside the room, Betsy Shaw approached Tara and initiated contact by offering a treat. During this interaction, Betsy Shaw made contact with Tara, at which point claims Tara bit her finger. Following this initial contact, Betsy Shaw attempted to direct motion to Robert Seiler to leave the room. Robert Seiler has limited mobility and moves slowly, shuffling his feet in place. At the time, a movement occurred within close proximity to Tara and Robert Seiler, which Tara perceived as a potential threat involving her owner. In response to the perceived threat within a confined space, Tara reacted in a protective and offensive manner, consistent with instructional behavior. Betsy Shaw has provided inconsistent accounts regarding the events that followed. According to Betsy Shaw's own statement to Marsha Seiler, she then exited the room and then contacted emergency services. The interaction was limited in duration and occurred entirely within a confined office space. My key points are, Tara was confined and not at large at any time during the incident. Betsy Shaw entered the confined space and initiated interaction despite being instructed not to do so. The environment was altered. By introducing additional individuals into a restricted area and closing the door, Tara's response occurred only after close proximity interaction by the movement involving her owner. The reaction was immediate, situational, and consistent with defensive protective response, not ongoing or provoked aggression. So, basically, just to kind of not sit here and breed off of what I kind of had. I'm not going to let you make an argument here. No, no, no. Not making an argument. Just facts. You've been making an argument. Tell me some facts. Some facts. I've known Tara for eight years. She's been a great service dog to us. She's always protected the family. I take her on walks. I never have issues with her. Over the eight years of her life, she's just been a great family animal to us. And at the end of the day, we're all willing to do everything to keep her alive. That's it. I'm sorry? No, you don't have to apologize to me. I'm just trying to get facts here. But, yeah, so anyway, so long and the short is, you know, she's a good dog. If anybody has any questions for me, please. I do. I do. I'll have to ask questions. Yes. Yes, your master. When this happened on March 19th, you didn't, you weren't privy to, there with any conversations when your father asked, let's strike that. Let's do it this way. Mr. Shaw says that your father asked her to come because he wants to see the dog. Do you know, were you there at that time? I was not there at that time. Okay. You first got to the house on that day. Had the bite already occurred? Yes, it had, yeah. So you have no idea what happened previous to that? That is correct. Okay. I don't have any further questions. Thank you. Do you have any? Thanks a lot, Mr. Shrump. Thank you for your time. Mr. Seller, I hate to keep dragging you up here, but it's your case. Do you have any other witnesses? No. I only have written statements. Written statements? Written statements? From people? You mean like a summary? Mm-hmm. I'll let you read those, and then I'll let you, yeah, go ahead. You want to make a closing statement? Feel free to do it. If you want to read it, that's fine. This is from people that I know that come to my house, that know the dog, and then it was my son-in-law who went on vacation with me, and he was there when I made those instructions before I left, so I have a statement from him. Well, that's what I'm trying to ask you. Now you're telling me you want to hand in documents? Yes. Okay. Let's do one at a time. We'll see where the county stands. Tell me. Tell me. Okay. I brought them yesterday and gave them. Well, I want to see them now. Okay. Ron Anderson, this is something faxed over to you or something, or is it? No, actually, he brought it by. He typed it up, and he brought it by and signed it yesterday. Okay. And unsworn statement, right? Mr. Barrera? No. Magistrate, you're. My call, right? Magistrate, your call, and that is correct. These are unsworn, out-of-court statements. I got it. Under oath, so if it's a lie, it would be a very severe penalty. I understand. So I have this statement. Hang on. Let me get a copy of it. I'm not going to accept this into evidence as an unsworn statement. I'm just not. Okay, then. Do you have any others? I don't understand. I think some of your others may be sworn. You got other statements, I think, as someone said. No? Do we have anything else? No, you don't have any other sworn statements. Oh, hold on. There was mine that you turned in. Well. Are you talking about the sworn affidavit? Yeah, I guess that would be. I have them here. You do. The stamp. The sworn affidavit. Whose signature is that, I think? That's my son. Yours. Okay, I don't need that. Unless you want to put it in. He's already testified to it. Mr. Schrum. I'll accept this. He's here. You want to put this into evidence? Sure. Okay. I'm going to accept this into evidence. Okay. Unless you have an objection. You want to argue an objection? We'll call this, it's called the Schrum affidavit. How about we call it, respond at one? Somebody will mark that for this, for her. You could hand it up. She'll put a one on that for you. I can't find anything else unless you say there's something. What do you have? From me? I'm sorry. An affidavit from me? I'm not going to accept an affidavit from you. You're right here. Okay. Is there something in the affidavit? That one from me. Yeah. He said this one was from him. I understand. He's testified. Do you want to ask him any questions about what's in that affidavit and recall? He's right here. Okay. He's just testified. All right. Thank you, ma'am. Okay. Anything else? No, just closing statement whenever you're ready. Anything else from you in terms of rebuttal or anything like that? No rebuttal. I'm actually just a brief closing. Okay. Here again. Yeah, go ahead. During the flood, I had to stay at my daughter's house. So, of course, we had to bring the dog, and we stayed over there for like 30 days. And she also has two children. Now Ellie's six and Oliver's four. And we've never had any problems with that dog. Okay. I just want you to know that the dog has been around small children, too. Actually, I have 16 grandchildren and five great-grandchildren. Okay. When you're ready for this, let me know. I'm ready back now. Are you ready? Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't have my glasses on either. Do you want to get them? Mr. Schumann, they're in a bag. They'll get you your glasses. No, they're not in there, honey. I'm sorry. I didn't know I'd be reading things. I mean, I'll let your son read this if you want for you. If it's just the way you're going to read this. All right. Do you want this to be a closing statement? What's it, two pages? It's one and then just a little bit. Mr. Schumann, if you could just read it. Yeah, just read it. Thank you, Magister. I appreciate that. Your Honor, this case comes down to one simple question. Was Tara acting as a dangerous dog or was she reacting to a situation that was created by improper human actions? The evidence has clearly shown that Tara was confined, not roaming, and under control within the home. The incident only occurred because clear instructions were ignored. Betsy Shaw was told not to interact with Tara. Despite that, she chose to enter a confined space, bring another individual into that space, close the door, and initiate direct contact. That decision created the environment. The evidence further shows that Tara had no prior history of aggression. There is no pattern. There is no ongoing threat. This was a single, isolated incident. Florida law is clear that the dog cannot be deemed dangerous when the circumstances involve provocation, improper conduct, or a defensive response to a protective person. That is exactly what happened here. Tara reacted in a confined space, in close proximity to her owner, during unexpected movement and interaction initiated by someone who had been instructed not to engage. This is not aggression. This is instinct. Additionally, the reporting party's statements contained significant inconsistencies, which call into question the reliability and the account of being used to justify such extreme outcome. Euthanasia is the most severe action available. It is permanent and cannot be undone. It should not be applied in the case where the dog was confined. The interaction was initiated by another party. The response was immediate and situational, and there is no history of dangerous behavior. At a minimum, if the court believes any action is necessary, there are reasonable alternatives that fully address safety without resorting to destruction of the animal. This case is not about a dangerous dog. It is about a preventable situation that escalated due to human decisions. We respectfully ask the dangerous dog destination be removed or eternally reduced to reasonable conditions. Thank you. That's all I'm asking, Your Honor, is that she doesn't die. I'll do whatever the court wants me to do, to muzzle her, to they come and see her, to whatever you need. She's already been chipped and other things, so that's all I'm asking. Understood. Mr. Barrera? Thank you, Magistrate, and I'll start by echoing Lieutenant Birch's sentiments that this is obviously a roomful of animal lovers, and this is not easy. Magistrate, the dog owner would have you believe that Ms. Shaw was in some way unlawfully on the property, tormenting the dog or assaulting Robert. The county has found no record of a police report being filed for trespass, assault, or any other unlawful behavior. Furthermore, Ms. Shaw is 87 years old and has no history of such unlawful behavior that the county can find. The statute is clear as to what constitutes provocation. Provocation is not contingent, whatever the dog believes is happening, but real acts of unlawful behaviors. Pinellas County believes it has proven that Tara is a threat to public safety. The county further believes that if the dangerous dog classification and humane euthanasia is not upheld, Tara will attack and possibly inflict injury or death on an animal or person in the future. Magistrate, again, to go through the applicable statute that we're following today, we are here under 767 and 14-64 Pinellas County Code. Magistrate 767.12 provides two specific iterations of when a dog may not be declared dangerous if any of the following apply, and I will read them for you, Magistrate. Give me a second. I want to follow you. Yeah, if you'd like, I can share my... No, I got a cover written in front of you. Yeah, so Magistrate 767.12.2. Right. A dog may not be declared dangerous if any of the following apply. The threat, injury, or damage was sustained by a person who, at the time, was unlawfully on the property, or who, while lawfully on the property, was tormenting, abusing, or assaulting the dog, or its owner, or a family member. Or B, the dog was protecting or defending a human being within the immediate vicinity of the dog from an unjustified attack or assault. So, Magistrate, those are the only iterations that Florida State statute has upheld as reasons a dog may not be declared dangerous. Then, Magistrate, I'd like to call your attention to the same citation, 767.12, paragraph 5. So, are you following with me? Yes. So, 5B, and this is the reason we're here today. If a dog is classified as a dangerous dog to an incident that causes severe injury to a human being, based upon the nature and circumstances of the injury and the likelihood of a future threat to public safety, health, and welfare, the dog may be destroyed in an expeditious and humane manner. Magistrate, I'd like to iterate for you that this is the first time in my tenure representing Animal Services, and the same with Lieutenant Birx that we've ever seen such heinous injuries. With that, Magistrate, that's the county's case. No, but you can't. You've got to stop somewhere. And we consider the public portion of the hearing closed. I will render my decision. Let me, by the way, is there, could you tell the clerk, not this moment, but I'm going to render a decision that will be mailed to both of you next week. Yes, Magistrate. Is there any cost issues and fees? Could you address those with the board? Yes, so there's going to be the cost for boarding of the animal. I'll have Animal Services send that over to Madam Clerk. Yes, and have them do it pretty quick because I want to get the decision out. Yes, and I'm going away at the end of next week. Well, because we have time frames set for how quickly you have to render your order, so I'll make sure that that gets to the clerk. I appreciate it. You got it. Thank you. Okay, you'll get the decision, and I presume you have all their contact information. Yes, I do. Okay, you'll get it if you want it by e-mail also or whatever you could. Yes, I believe we do have your e-mail. We'll mail it and e-mail it. Okay, we're done. Thank you. Thank you for being professional here. Communications, please stop recording. Thank you.