Good afternoon. It's 3.30. It's October 21st. Welcome to our special committee on drawing and prevention. We'll start with introductions to our left. Good afternoon, Joe Inderheese, Mayor's Office. Stephen Libby, Council Research. Phillip Peterson, Council Order. Good afternoon, Tyrone Clark, Murray, District 9. Good afternoon, Reginald Gaffney, Jr., District 8. Mike Gay, District 2. Good, good. Thank you, everyone, for coming out today. I really appreciate it. I think we're on our fourth or fifth meeting, man. We have learned a lot. I know I have learned a lot, learned a lot of new initiatives, things we haven't been doing, things that we should be doing. We're getting close to an end, I think, in the next couple of weeks, the next few weeks. I think it's my goal to, you know, wrap this up, you know, so I think after this meeting, what I would like to see potentially, we'll see how today's meeting go, but potentially wrapping this meeting up, this special committee up by next week. You guys, our special committee, have brought a lot of great information to our attention, and I think I'm in a good place, me personally, in terms of knowing where I want to head in my direction in terms of legislation. So, we've got a loaded agenda today. We'll jump straight into it. Before we get started, I want to make sure we get approval of our October seven mini minutes. Awesome. Thank you. All right. I appreciate that. So, let's get into it. We've got another great presentation, you know, from our special committee, and we'll get right into it. So, thank you. Go for it. All right. Good afternoon, members of the committee. Tyler Nolan, Northeast Florida Regional Council, 40 East Adam Street. Chief Aube is here with me as well, but he wanted me to pass the baton this meeting. He was up before you a lot the last time. So, a little update on the working group since we last met. Obviously, you've seen this slide a couple of times, and that box keeps getting moved further down that timeline. So, we're working diligently to be able to get you, take every bit of information that we've been having from these meetings, synthesize it, put it into recommendations, and ultimately prepare for that final report that you all have tasked us with forming. At the last meeting, we had very lengthy discussions about the layering of prevention efforts that we are building in, right? The elopement prevention piece of it. If folks or individuals with intellectual and developmental differences ultimately do get out of their home, the elopement recovery, how do we find them faster? And then, if forbid, they do find themselves in a retention pond or some other body of water, ways to potentially float and swimming lessons and things that hopefully still buy us some time to find them before the ultimate tragedy happens. So, since that, the working group has still been going down those roads and looking at those three focus areas. I think you all know that when we talked about the fence discussion or buffers at city ponds, we are very limited due to Senate Bill 180 when it comes to private facilities. And you're going to hear some of those. You asked for the water management district. They're here today. They're going to present on some of those rules and legislations on a state level. You've obviously heard it on the local level of what you have at your fingertips and at your disposal. To kind of recap, some of the things that really do keep rising to the top is this working group sustainment. Some of the initiatives and some of the things are going to take time to put into place and make sure that they are put in place well. So, one of the big recommendations is that in some way, shape, or fashion, a working group that works to implement these actions continues in, at least in the foreseeable future, to kind of work on these issues. Building that framework, really looking at everything and how it coalesced together. We are looking and partnering with DCPS. They're also here today that they're going to help with a presentation looking at what we can do on a school structure. Obviously, DCPS has their public school system, but there's also a charter school system that, while DCPS may have some influence on, it takes a community buy-in across all education sectors to kind of implement some of these things. So, we're researching, still working diligently. We'll have another meeting next week to kind of get some of these things more finalized and brought back before you as kind of what may work and what may not work, looking at it from both ends of that spectrum. We are seeing that when it comes to water training or safety training, we know that there are a number of private options out there, but swimming training in general is hard to come by, with the biggest barrier to our families being transportation. So, we're looking at that. We're trying to think outside the box. Maybe there's some innovative ways to bring that stuff in. JFRD is doing a fantastic job of doing some research and understanding what it would mean to bring in some trailers or some sort of water training that we can bring to people, not have them have to get to it. So, I think that's a pretty out-of-the-box initiative that we're working on. Obviously, we've talked about the GIS mapping and what it meant. I think it was 9,700 ponds across Duval County when we looked at the data. And with that, how can we do a little bit more of a risk analysis? So, that thousand-foot buffer of high-risk properties, really looking at those high-density areas, we learned that when we compared them to schools, when we compared them to other significant locations, a lot of those were either set back far enough or already had a fence in place. So, we think looking at this at this thousand-foot buffer for more high-density areas may be the better way to kind of get a risk analysis of it. Targeted registry outreach. We talk about revamp, all of the programs and things, and it really comes down to public messaging. And I think you'll hear more and more of that as we go through. But really trying to outreach to the public that JFRD and city organizations have really, really great programs. We just got to get more folks signed up for them. So, working on that targeted registry outreach. And then we're working in that hardware sourcing and tiered toolkits. We know that alarms and locks and all of these things are really, really great to help elopement. But there are probably some families out there that need some assistance acquiring those items. We have a number of partners here in the city of Jacksonville. We have some already that are at the table, a part of the working group, such as Home Depot. They've been a part of the discussions and looking at how they can provide some of those things to the city. But there's a whole other ancillary of hardware stores and things that maybe want to partner as well. So, really starting to expand upon those resources and those partnerships. Continuing the subject matter consultation and just really looking at these educational assets as we kind of tie everything together and really look at what it means from a long-term perspective. I've hit it once already, but really public messaging is going to be the key to all of this. Whether there's a new program, a site of programs, whatever it may be, the public messaging that comes with that can't be understated. Now, with that, we did talk about the centralized landing page. That comes with difficulties. That comes with funding constraints. That comes with who is going to ultimately own it. How is it going to be updated? How is it going to be monitored? Right? These are long-term decisions that have to happen long before any of this stuff is kind of put into place. So, we're having those discussions. And I think you all are thinking about it in your own right because we've had those discussions with you several times. The event calendar is a really great one. There's a ton of tremendous partnerships that happen here, whether it's the Red Cross, DCPS, Jacksonville Fire and Rescue Department. Somewhere, somehow, we all need to communicate that we are all hosting events and that these partner organizations can be at each other's events to push this information to the members of the public at every opportunity we can get. And that all comes down still with that enhanced community outreach. So, I'm going to be really brief in those statements because I know that you want to hear from our other speakers. But I will say, and as Council Member Gaffney alluded to, the meetings are coming to an end rather quickly. And so, I think at the next meeting, we are going to kind of recap some of our ideas, our thoughts, and where we choose to pick those recommendations. I'm going to ask you to help us in that process and really poke holes in our ideas and things. Because as we ultimately craft that final report for you all, we want to make sure that we're capturing exactly what your intent is and what your ultimate goals are for this process moving forward. So, unless you have any questions for me, which it looks like you do, I'll stand by. Yeah, thank you. If you don't mind, can you elaborate on a thousand foot buffer? Is that city retention ponds or that's private? No, we would, I think we're looking at it on an entirety look. Because with that, we have it in the GIS mapping system. So, it's just running that analysis in the computer system. So, it's not necessarily a lot of additional work. Now, there is time with that. And your GIS department is, I think, actively working on that right now. But to actually look at that and run the computer modeling more than anything. Okay. I appreciate it. Yes, sir. Colleagues, do I have any questions? All right. Well, next, I think next we have an agenda. JFR, well, you guys, VCPS. Yeah, we're going to, I'm going to turn it over to Dr. Heather Albritton, as well as Jason Merkinson. Okay. All right. Thank you. I'm here. Good afternoon. Dr. Heather Albritton, Duval County Public Schools. And good afternoon. I'm Jason Merkinson, Director of Exceptional Education and Student Services for Duval County Public Schools. All right. So, as you can imagine, Duval County Public Schools is uniquely positioned to address the education component of where we stand with water safety and water prevention. So, we want to talk about where we currently have a foundation in place, right? So, we're talking about family information. So, Florida law currently requires us to provide information to our families on drowning prevention, where they can find swimming lessons, resources. We have that on our homepage, as well as on our health and physical education pages. So, we know that there are opportunities in which we can improve that, but DCPS is positioned to be the mouthpiece for some of the information and resource hubs that we put in place with this work group. As a district, we also have health education and physical education that is required for all students in K through 12. That is a woven part of our physical education. There are existing benchmarks that are set through the state of Florida that require safety prevention or injury prevention and water safety instruction for all of our students. There's only about 12 benchmarks throughout pre-K through 12. There's not a lot of instruction that takes place, but there is a place right now that we see that instruction taking place, especially in our elementary schools. We do want to point out that it is very different when we think about instruction for water safety and then competence with the skills of swimming, right? So, we're not instructing them to swim. We're more so pointing out how they can be safe, situations that they may be put in and decisions that they can make to improve whatever outcome that may occur. So, opportunities to reinforce hazard recognition, safe decision-making, and knowing when and how to seek help are some of our main focuses. And then community connections, right? So, we are hoping that through this work we can highlight the community connections that we have and really strengthen those to make sure that our parents that we have direct access to get that information and get those resources. We also, when we're considering these opportunities to expand water education, water safety education, we know that we have barriers. That's always the first thing that comes up is the things that we cannot do and the things that stand in our place. So, first being access. Not every family has access to the same opportunity to participate in swim lessons or they have transportation issues, cost issues, scheduling. So, we recognize that and are willing to help kind of come up with solutions to mitigate those issues. And we recognize that some of our students with disabilities have, particularly those who wander, may also have difficulty recognizing those dangerous situations. So, Jason's going to talk about that in a few minutes. But one of the biggest barriers that we have is always going to be instructional time. We have limited instructional time. We have very structured days in which we are required to teach things within those state-required minutes. But we're actually, we're absolutely committed to figuring out how we can overcome those barriers in creative ways with this committee. So, I'm going to turn it over to Jason for our next part. So, just briefly from an exceptional education and student services perspective, one of our primary considerations is ensuring that water safety information and prevention resources are accessible to all of our students and families, including our families from different cultural backgrounds and that are multi-linguistic. So, we recognize that some of our students, as Dr. Ibritton stated, are at greater risk because of the wandering or some have sensory needs or communication challenges. And some are also limited safety awareness. So, we just want to make sure that as we support those families, that the information being provided is accessible to all of them. We recognize also that the work group has begun working through some of the barriers that already exist. So, some of the adaptive swimming and also some transportation issues have already been up for discussion. So, again, we're just really wanting to focus on making sure that all the information provided to our families are accessible. If you can, get closer to the mic. So, I know they was having a hard time hearing in the back. It was recording. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. So, that's pretty much all I had to say. If you have any questions, we'd be happy to answer. I do have a question. Thank you for that presentation. Sure. Um, you guys' relationship with charter schools. Of course, I don't know the relation, but how do kids at charter schools, private schools get this same information? Are just, are this information that you guys have, this database, this resource hub, is only applicable to kids who attend Duval County Schools, who in Duval County Schools? No, sir. So, the resources that are on our public placing website are available to everyone. If it's on, so like our specific individual lessons that we have in our physical education classes or anything that's proprietary to DCPS would be on our SharePoint or in our curriculum guide that you would have to have a DCPS log into. But a lot of the resources that we've talked about and that we're working on putting in one central place would be connected to everything that the city has access to. So, it would be more of a communication for us to make sure that the charters and the private schools would know, hey, these are available not just to DCPS students, but to all students and all families in Duval County. All right, that works for me. All right, I think we'll have any questions. All right, appreciate that presentation. All right, Tyler. Yes, now you have Mary Ellen Winkler who is the Assistant Executive Director of the St. John's River Water Management District. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. As was mentioned, I'm Mary Ellen Winkler from the St. John's River Water Management District, 4049 Reed Street in Palacca. I'm also on a personal note, the mother of a child on the autism spectrum. So, this is personal to me and I've had to deal with elopement prevention in my own home. So, important issue and appreciate the work. I've had the opportunity to observe and participate with the team that's been tasked by the city and just wanted to let you know as someone from another agency. I'm impressed with the work and the effort your team's putting into it and impressed as a mother with the care and concern that your staff and this group has worked so hard on. So, thank you for that. Just a brief overview of our water management district. If you're not familiar with us, there's five water management districts in Florida and they generally follow the surface water boundaries of our major water features in the state. So, the St. John's, we are the basin of the St. John's River, our namesake. We cover 18 counties in northeast and east central Florida, about six million people within our jurisdiction and as you all well know, we have many important features 1400 lakes, 148 springs that we are charged with protecting. We have a variety of missions. One is water supply. So, for example, JEA comes to us for its permits to withdraw water from the Florida aquifer. We also manage flood protection in the St. John's River in the upper part and along the chain of lakes, the Harris chain of lakes in Lake County. We also own about 700,000 acres of land. So, we manage quite a bit of land and most of that is wetlands. Really, our goal at the St. John's is to flood protection for us is trying to protect those floodplain wetlands. So, we have a lot of ownership of wetlands. But what I'm here to talk to you today about is environmental resource permitting. And so, that is one of our major jobs. The typical developments that you see come to the St. John's for if they have wetland impacts or plan to do stormwater management system. This just gives you an idea of our permitting throughout our 18 counties. It's been increasing over the last several years, but we're getting closer to 4,000 permits a year. And within those permits, there's typically more than one stormwater pond. So, we have, depending on the size of the project, there'll be many ponds, stormwater ponds within the system. So, just wanted to give you a sense of how many permits we deal with on a yearly basis. Permitting in Florida, it used to be that each of the water management districts had its own environmental resource permitting program with its own unique rules. We've been in business, we've existed for over 50 years now. So, we have many decades of experience in permitting. Back in 2013, the state asked that the water management districts and the Department of Environmental Protection make one unified consistent program. And so, the statewide ERP program, SWRP, you'll hear that term used, is the statewide program that guides the permit review of permits, how you apply the permitting criteria, how permits are transferred. So, that's that statewide program. And that statewide uniform look is in what's called our SWRP Applicants Handbook Volume 1. We also, here in St. John's and all of the other districts also have what's called a Volume 2. And Volume 2 is to address unique issues within each of the districts. We are geologically different and have unique challenges within each of the districts. So, our Volume 2 has unique criteria. For example, we have along the in the Apopka chain down in Central Florida, there's nutrient issues. So, there's some special criteria that apply to projects in that area. Volume 2 also has within it performance metrics related to stormwater ponds. And one of those is related to safety. And for wet ponds, we require that if you have a steep slide side slope, which would mean steeper than a 4 to 1 side slope, that the pond must be fenced or have some sort of barrier. And I put some examples of like what a 3 to 1, 2 to 1, and a 1 to 1, those steeper side slopes that you see in the graphic are ones that we would require be fenced or some sort of barrier. We have, in response to the events of August, I've asked our staff to research. We don't have a check box in our system that says this pond required fencing. But we did a search of all of the technical staff reports in our system in Duval County to find permits that had a fencing requirement. We found those. It's not many, less than 20. I did have our compliance staff do a compliance check of all of those permits, and we did not find any that were out of compliance. They all had the required fencing. In terms of operation and maintenance requirements, the district does not maintain any of the stormwater ponds. When a permit is issued by the district during the permit review process, one of the criterion that the permittee, the permit applicant, must meet is that they have to establish and tell us who that final operation and maintenance entity will be. So for example, it could be the city, or it could be a homeowner's association. We have to be notified, and then we examine whether that entity has the administrative, legal, and financial capability to manage the system. So for example, in the case of a homeowner's association, we will actually review the articles of incorporation of the HOA and their deed restrictions to make sure that language exists that makes it clear that they have that future requirement, a future obligation to maintain the system in perpetuity. So what's important to note is that once the permit is converted to a, it is upon completion of construction, it is converted to the operation and maintenance phase. There is a typically a check done by us to make sure when those as-built are submitted that we've reviewed it, that everything's okay. And it's important to note that the obligation to operate and maintain the system once it's transferred from that construction phase to operation and maintenance is in perpetuity. So that obligation goes on until they're, you know, that obligation were to be transferred to someone else. The other requirement that is important to note is that we have, those permittees are required to manage and maintain all components of the water management, stormwater management system. That includes the side slopes. So this is a condition that is on all permits that we issue. This is a standard permit condition on this slide that makes it a requirement. So if your pond side slope, for whatever reason, experiences erosion, sometimes you'll get an effect called benching. Sometimes on the larger ponds, you might see some wave action in the pond and you might get some erosion. It is the obligation of the permittee to make sure those slopes are maintained. I will also say that since our program began, there is also an inspection requirement. And so every two years, whoever that operation and maintenance entity is, they are required to inspect that pond. In 2024, there was a change to the rules and there's now a, instead of two years, it depends on the type of system. Um, so there is a chart in that, uh, in the applicant's handbook, depending on the type of system that was built. Um, it could be any ranging between one and five years now, depending on the type of system, but historically up to 2024 for everything, um, generally it was two years. Uh, there's a couple of types of systems that were one year, but generally I would say two. And then since 2024, um, permittees are required to follow the chart, um, for the specific type of system, um, that was, uh, built. And with that, I would be happy to answer any questions. Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon to you again. Um, so I noticed that the term safety is used in regards to stormwater, um, retention ponds and detention ponds. So how is safety being defined according to the, you know, the water management district? And I asked that question because in regards to the safety aspect, it has to do with pond design as opposed to preventing someone from going into the pond. So how is safety being defined? May I respond? Yes. So the water management districts, all five of us, um, the safety criteria that we have are related to the ability of the person to walk out of the pond. So basically the four to one side slope was created as the metric, um, so that if somebody was walking next to the pond or working next to the pond, if they fell in, they would be able to walk out. Um, so that's, that's the main metric that our, our rules are based on. Okay. Thank you for that through the chair. So in thinking about children and the definition that you just gave of safety, do you think it would be, is it reasonable to apply that definition of safety when we're talking about children? So if, um, if there was a determination that, um, we needed to be more stringent, um, the process for us would be to go through rulemaking and the process would involve, and, and we'd have to have the facts to support that, you know, there's, this is the situation, et cetera. So you'd have to have that basis. Um, at that point, because we are 18 counties, the analysis would be, um, and we're governed by chapter 120 of the Florida statutes, our rulemaking process. Um, so the process would be that, um, if the regulatory cost, uh, reached $200,000, which we would likely over our 18 counties, if you fenced all the ponds, we would be required to do a statement of estimated regulatory cost. And then if that cost over five years reached a million dollars, um, we would be required to seek legislative ratification, um, in Tallahassee to move forward with the rule. Um, so it is, um, a process for us to go through rule, rulemaking and we would have to establish the factual basis to, to, to move forward. And through the chair, so a factual basis, factual basis. Okay. So the fact that, and I'm very sure that Duval County is not the only county that is experiencing the deaths of children and adults. So would those deaths that we've experienced recently be a part of that, um, factual basis to justify changing the rule and making a, it looks like, sounds like some kind of study will need to be done. Right. You would have, yes, you would include anything, anything that we do. For example, um, if we were going to make a more stringent, whatever requirement, say there was a need to make more stringent, uh, requirements for water quality or whatever it might be, we would put together that factual case. And in this case, certainly it would include here's, here's what the losses we've experienced would certainly be part of any kind of, you know, when we, we would first go to a governing board and, and, and move through the process, but you would definitely put that as part of here's why we are moving in this direction and that kind of thing. I would imagine all of the water management districts have the same side slope requirement at this time. I think it would be something that if we moved forward, we would obviously want to coordinate that with the other water management districts so that we're consistent statewide. Um, so I don't know the situation in the other districts. I'm not aware of anyone, um, moving forward on rulemaking. I am certainly aware that, you know, this is not the first time it has happened. Um, and I think it's just one of those important decisions that those in leadership have to, um, like our governing board or anyone else would have to make. But in terms of process, um, anytime we do rulemaking, you establish here's why we're doing it. And then, um, obviously costs, we factor into that. And then depending on the cost of the implementation, you kind of, you know, you could end up at the legislature or wherever it might lead. So it's, it's, you know, depends on, uh, you know, certainly, uh, how you'd want to proceed. Now the water management district, if the city itself would like, we have situations in parts of our district where, um, the cities or counties have decided to be more stringent on other issues. So for example, um, we set the floor. So our systems, um, are designed to handle a 25 year, 24 hour storm event, which depending on where you are is around eight to 10 inches of rain. We have communities, um, within our district that have chosen to regulate to the hundred year storm event. So if the city wanted to, um, regulate and say, we would like all of our ponds fenced, regardless of slope, you can certainly do that. You don't need us. Um, in certain areas of the law, um, in chapter 373, we have, um, what's called field preemption. So for example, in our consumptive use permitting program, where we regulate taking water out of the aquifer, the district does have field prevention, preemption, and you would not be able to regulate on this topic. We do not have field preemption. Therefore you, the city, if you so chose, if it's important to the community and that's the direction we'd like to go to have a more stringent regulation on, um, stormwater ponds, you could certainly do that and not be in conflict with our rule. Fantastic. Through the chair. Yes, that's what Clark Murray was getting to. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. So through the chair, thinking about the design of retention and detention ponds and thinking about where the most recent death was, and I, and I'm not sure if you are aware of where it occurred, um, on our far north side of town, um, not pecan. Okay. I'll just say river city generally. Is there a requirement for, uh, builders developers in regards to if they are going to have a design that requires a retention pond, if it is in within a certain proximity of an established, uh, residence or multifamily residents, are they required to have a specific kind of design? For example, does it have to be the kind where it's essentially supposed to be dry, that the water percolates within 72 hours, or if it's just one in which the water is held and then it just, um, essentially just held and maybe pumped out. Um, so we can't, whether it's a dry pond or wet pond is really a function of the soils. And so a dry pond in some parts of the is, would be very difficult to construct in this area. We don't have that many in this area because of the soils. I will tell you personally, I live in a pond, a neighborhood with dry ponds, which is unusual. Um, but that was by choice. I have a unique situation and I have a child on this spectrum. Um, so that was a choice, um, my family made given our situation. Um, so dry ponds are harder to find just because of soils, depending on where you are in St. John's County and in Duval County. Um, but we don't have a regulation that says you have to build this type of pond at this particular location. A lot of it is really driven by engineering decisions, what soils you have, how much space you have to work with on the lot that you're designing on. Um, so it's, it's more of an engineering call. Um, but again, if you get to that steeper side slope, um, then we require the barrier fence. Right. I'm going to yield my, um, remainder of my questions for now and then I'll let the one else go and I'll come back. All right. Thank you. Go ahead, Chair. All right. Thank you for those questions. Mr. Enderhays, you're recognized. Good afternoon. Thank you, Chair, for letting me ask a couple questions. Thank you, committee members for letting me ask a couple questions here. Um, Ms. Mary Ellen, thank you for your subject matter expert expertise, um, in, in sharing with us. If it weren't for a physical fence, if there were some sort of natural barrier that could be a hindrance, uh, can you speak to, speak to that please in your opinion? So in our rules, we allow fencing, um, the typical, like, um, barrier would be shrubbery. We see that sometimes typically, um, I'm aware of one, for example, on a golf course where they, they, you know, in a, that's, was off to one side, um, where they use some shrubbery at how to steep slope. Um, so it's typically some sort of vegetative barrier. Um, but I would say the vast majority where it's required people elect to do a fence. My follow-up question would be in changing the four to one, three to one, two to one, would that have to go through the same rulemaking process? So, right. So for us, um, we, we have the rulemaking process in chapter 120, and so we would have to go through that process. And again, depending, again, my guess, I have not done the cost estimating, but given the number of ponds that we have over our 18 counties, because for us, it wouldn't just affect Duval. It would affect 18, at least all our portion of 18 counties. I would have to do that multiplication over, uh, how many ponds we would anticipate on a yearly basis, and then the cost to fence each, you know, fence each pond. And then, you know, if it hits those thresholds in chapter 120, then it would require legislative ratification as the process for us. Thank you. Thank you guys for those questions. Um, I have a few questions. I, mine is in regards to compliance, and I just want to make sure I understood you correctly. So, St. John's Water Management, you guys do the permitting, and then you guys turn it over to the HOA, and they're responsible for auditing inspection, inspecting ponds. You said one to five years, or every two years? So, for ones that have been issued before 2024, they have to do an inspection every two years. Um, with the new rule, and it just depends on the system. Most of them, I would say, are in the two-year range. Um, so, um, exfiltration trenches, which are systems that are, like, underneath the ground, are typically one year. So, it's sort of, like, the less complicated the system. Um, the newer, uh, updated rule in 2024, you can have a little more time, like, three years. So, it's, it's in that, you know, couple year range, uh, generally speaking. Yeah. Thank you for that. And I'm curious to know, um, how many of these ponds throughout the year is found out of compliance? You know, and I, and, and I guess, I don't know if you have that data with you now, but, um, that would be a good question. And once these ponds are found out of compliance, then what? Sure. Um, I can walk you through an example. We had a larger subdivision, um, that, um, we determined they had a couple of issues, one of which was pondslide slope. And so, we worked with the HOA. Um, the first thing we do, we, basically, that one was we received a complaint. And so, we immediately sent out our inspector. Um, they looked at the situation, and we send a compliance assistance letter. Um, and so, um, they, that outlines, here's what we found. It's a violation of X, Y, Z condition. And so, they'll get a list of things. And then that letter will typically give them a timeframe to respond. Um, and so, um, we will do follow-up. And in that case, we worked with them, um, to resolve all of the issues. It did take, I think in that case, they spent over $10,000. They had a number of ponds. That's a case where it's a large subdivision. They had a lot of ponds. And it was an older subdivision. So, they hadn't done, um, the routine maintenance. And so, when they had to, when we came and we saw that we had some steeper slopes and things, um, they had to do a lot, a lot more work to get things back. Um, so, um, so in that case, we worked with them, got it back in compliance and they're, they're doing fine. So, um, so typically, it's not that we're trying to run out and find people. It's, here's the issues. And typically, with HOAs, um, you know, it's a lot of education and, and letting them know, hey, this is what you need to do and to get back on track. Yeah. Thank you for that. Um, what if HOAs do not report to you guys? You know, I know you said every two years, we, we talking about maybe over, I'm not sure, five to 6,000 ponds. That's a lot of ponds to be expecting. You know, uh, a lot of HOAs, you know, I'm not sure what type of system you guys have in place, but every two years, I'm pretty sure every HOA, and I don't, I could be wrong. It's not reporting to you guys every, um, two years, uh, every one of five years. Right. And another one of my biggest fears is one of five years, that might be too late, you know, in terms of being inspected. So, yeah, it, we focus our, um, inspections on, um, you know, I can't be everywhere, certainly. Um, so we do our best. Um, I would say most often, um, we would keep our eyes on, uh, typically the, the ones where you have obviously fencing, um, uh, things that are, um, we do a lot of inspection work on the larger projects where you have a lot of, a lot of ponds, a lot more complicated maintenance responsibilities. We also focus a lot on ones where they might be using a treatment technology to meet the water quality requirements. So there's, we do try, we do have to kind of, um, realistically break down, okay, here's our tier one, tier two, tier three. What are the ones more at risk versus less so that you're not as concerned about over time? So, um, I think like any agency, we've got to focus and, and hone in based on experience where your trouble spots are and, and which ones have the highest probability of causing issues over time. What is considered at risk for the team, the committee? I'm sorry. The at risk ponds. So typically, yeah, we would want to look at anything with fencing. Um, you know, we do, do regular compliance work in our larger, uh, larger developments, um, where you have like a hundred acre project with a lot of ponds. Those, those get a lot of attention. Um, so that's where we, we try to focus effort. Um, and also the larger the pond, you'll have some more maintenance. Like I said, the larger the pond, you might get more wave action. So those are things where you'd get erosion. So we need to keep an eye on those. One last question and I'll let you go. Um, the two kids who passed, who passed away, who drowned from, um, the drownings, do we go, or do you guys go inspect the pond afterwards these kids pass? Um, once they pass, um, once they pass, what's like the process? Do we go behind them and expect these ponds to see if these ponds may be in violation? Certainly if someone, if, if someone made us aware there was, you know, we need to, there was a concern that the pond was out of compliance or things like that, we would certainly, um, go and do an inspection. Um, you know, it, it is a difficult, um, in my own experience, I was fortunate that my situation, um, my child was not attracted to water. In fact, he hated it. Um, but I had the issue though, that my child was attracted to trains. Um, so, um, so it's a difficult issue, but, um, but we do, if, if there is a concern, I think we're happy to work with y'all. If you have a concern about a particular pond, please let us know. We want to be a good partner with the city and, um, we're certainly happy to take a look, um, on any ponds that you might have a concern, um, about. We're happy to work with you and, and, and get an inspection team out to look at whether there's any concerns. Absolutely. I thank you. I appreciate that. One of the things I think is good for this committee is to find out over the last three years, um, how many ponds have been out of compliance and I'm not sure if it's, it's, I know you say you're getting a lot of permits yearly. You know, I'm pretty sure it's numerous of ponds right now that's out of compliance. And if the ponds are out of compliance, do the residents know? You know, um, do the community know? You know, what is the HOA doing to, and I guess I'm not sure if the HOA have a responsibility to let the residents know, but you know, what are we doing? You know, and I know you say you're working with these ponds and these HOAs to get them back in compliance, but I just think the residents need to know that, you know, it's some potentially danger, you know, hey, stay away from these ponds. So I, I think if you can, um, by the next meeting in the next few weeks, if you could get back with us, at least convey the information over to Tyler, um, or Andre about all the ponds that's been out of compliance, I guess, the last three years on how many ponds spent is, you know, give us a ballpark, a ballpark figure, um, in terms of ponds that's out of compliance. I'm just curious to know, you know, um, yearly how many ponds is not a violation. Yeah. So we'll do your best to, to see what we can dig up for you. Okay. All right. Thank you. I really appreciate it. My heart go out to you. Um, we're doing our best to come up with a solution. Um, like you say, I mean, your son, he's not attracted to water, but you know, we go try to do our best to come up with a solution. Yeah. No, I appreciate all the work that you do. Thank you. All right. Oh, hold on. I think we got one more question. Councilwoman. Go ahead. All right. So focusing on the complaint process, you said that someone has to file a complaint. So is that just an email to the water management district or is there a formal complaint form? Is there a site? How does someone access a, uh, a form or, um, some type of document to send to the water river, um, the management district? Sure. Sure. We, we receive, uh, inquiries by phone. Um, we get them by email and our website, sjrwmd.com. Um, um, there's paths to, um, get into contact with our various service centers. Um, we have a service center here in Jacksonville off of Bay Meadows. Um, so, um, if they go to that, there's a phone number and an email they can, um, reach out to us and, and we will certainly, um, take a look and get folks out, uh, right away to look at any concerns. Okay. So through the chairs, so what you're saying is that there isn't a formal process. It's just someone can send an email to one of the service centers or to the water management district and, and then you will begin a process of investigating. So how, how often are the, through the chair, how often are ponds inspected? So we focus our inspection at the time. It can be at any time in the process. So sometimes it could be during, we'll go out during construction. Um, um, and then typically at the end of construction, we'll get an as-built where an engineer signs and seals that the project has been constructed in accordance with the permitted plans. Um, so that would be a potential trigger point there. We also, um, when there is a transfer from a developer to, it could be a property owner's association for a commercial or a, um, developer to a homeowner's association. Those transfers will absolutely trigger a, an inspection by us because we want, in that case, we want to make absolutely sure that's what's, what is being turned over to that association from the developer is fully in compliance. Um, because you don't, you don't want to turn over something that's out of compliance to an HOA. So we make sure that we get that permit is fully compliant because before that turnover occurs. Um, so that's a big one. Um, so those would be the main, the main points would be, I think, as-built would be an opportunity, but also that, that big moment. Um, typically, um, when the developer is stepping back from a pro, a project, and you're transferring it to, um, an association, we absolutely want to make sure that we're giving them something that's in good working order. Thank you for that. And through the chair, you gave us an example of, um, an actual, uh, HOA and they, their ponds were out of compliance. You said that they had about $10,000 in, um, restorative work that needed to be done to their ponds. Does the, uh, district charge any fees? Are there any fines? Are there any fines associated with violations? We, there could be, um, but in cases where we're working with an HOA, our goal is not to fine them. They need that money to repair the pond. And the way that we make sure that an HOA has money to repair and maintain the system, as I mentioned earlier, we look at the, uh, deed restrictions and the articles of incorporation. Those documents will have language in them and it's in our rule that the association will use and collect enough money to maintain the system. So that's how we know during the permit review process that we're going to have an entity that has the financial, legal, and administrative capacity to carry, manage the system in the future. And, and for the most part, I, I think they do, I mean, they, they get it and they, they do it. So, um, but that's the kind of the check and balance is we make sure that they have the power to do it. And then, um, again, at that transfer point from developer to HOA, that is a big moment to make sure that everything is in good working order. Thank you for that. So just one last question, Chair. Have you encountered a HOA situation or anyone who's on the, um, on the district working with the district, uh, water district management, um, have you encountered a situation where there's an HOA, there is a egregious violations and they have not been able to rectify the, the, uh, the issues? So through the chair, um, our biggest honestly challenge with HOAs is inner HOA disputes where, um, you might have, um, one group who thinks the solution is X and another is Y. And we kind of have to say, we need it fixed. And so I think the biggest, um, roadblock has been, most of them comply right away. Honestly, it's just, they get a letter up, we'll fix it. Um, the ones where they've, there's been some, somebody lost the election and somebody won or, you know, just some internal strife, not necessarily related to the pond itself, but okay. Some internal trauma, um, is honestly one of our biggest challenges. All right. Thank you for that. Thank you, Chair. Councilman Gay. You're recognized. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to thank the, uh, St. John Water Management and y'all too, for y'all coming and sharing with us. And, uh, y'all are always, uh, proactive in waterways and, and the, uh, Northeast Florida Regional Council and, and I appreciate everything y'all do. And I will say to the committee that, and to the community, St. John Water Management, if you see a violate, think that there's a violation, they have an open door. You can send them an email. You, you will get a, a, a, a response, uh, some, some type of inspection. So they, they, they are, uh, very on top of what they do. Uh, I will say that about, uh, their department. Uh, their, uh, they take their, uh, scope serious. And so they, they stay on top of what's, what's needed to be done. And, you know, I, I commend them, uh, for that. Uh, they, they're, they've got quite a big challenge with, with as much, uh, development as we got going on and as much wetlands that the, that they're trying to preserve. Uh, so it's always a challenge. But, uh, uh, uh, the, the banks, the slopes and all that, uh, I think if anything changed, that's going to have to be some type of state legislation that would have to be, uh, enacted. Not saying that it can't be done, but, uh, I think that's where that's going to fall out, fall at. Uh, but I just want to thank y'all for being here today. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming out. All right. Andre. Good afternoon. Andre, Chief of Duvall County, Emergency Services Division. I'm going to have Steve Long come up and talk about COJ, maintenance and permitting process. Steve, go ahead. Ms. Long. Hello, Steve Long, Public Works. I'm just waiting for the slide to be updated. Okay. Oh, I've got the clicker. Okay. I'm sorry about that. So. Okay. Um, all right. Steve Long, Public Works. Um, what you see in front of you, and this is just a very short presentation about the way the city of Jacksonville kind of, uh, does our permitting for our ponds. We follow the same technical, uh, requirements as the water management district. Um, you heard her talking about, uh, pond design is 25 year, 24 hour, uh, SCS storms. We also allow a hundred year rational storm. Uh, but you know, basically the same thing. Uh, when you look at the city of Jacksonville, our, uh, pond design criteria is contained within our land development procedures manuals. And, uh, what you'll see on here is in land development procedures manual, uh, volume two, that's our actual design guidelines. Uh, volume three is our standard design details. Uh, these documents are available to anybody and they're on the city of Jacksonville's website at jacksonville.gov. Okay. Um, the next one is, uh, and I'm not going to go through design as far as for like, you know, how much treatment you have to provide and what amount of time, but what I'm going to do is this slide shows the, uh, actual geometry, uh, requirements of a pond. And what I want to point out is if you look at item number one, um, when you get down there and it talks about side slope, um, basically it says side slopes shall not be steeper than four to one and shall be used on all man-made basins. Where natural basins are existing, the criteria will be set on an individual basis. Side slopes steeper than four to one may be approved by the city engineer, provided permanent bank stabilization and fencing is constructed. The one thing I'll point out is, as you heard from water management district, they, they require fencing, but they can also allow things like, uh, she was talking about when she said, uh, uh, you know, hedges, uh, vegetation, that sort of thing for, for the city. It's fences. It's not, uh, it's not other means or methods. So it'd be, it'd be fencing and our fencing requirement is minimum four feet tall. Okay. Our, our next slide, and these next four slides are basically just the, these are actual standard details out of the land development procedures manual. Um, this first, this first image you'll see, uh, we call this case one, and this is a pond that would be, uh, submitted to us that meets all the requirements and does not have a need for a fence. Uh, you see, it's got a four to one, uh, side slope or flatter. It can be flatter and it doesn't need, but if it's steeper, then it would need a fence. But in this case, there's, there's no, uh, need for a fence because it's four to one or flatter. And this is our standard pond, and this is what we strive for with all of our projects. All right. Our, our next, uh, criteria is, uh, for case two and case three ponds. Uh, the, the image at the top is our case two pond. And you'll see in that case, um, you'll see a, a berm, which is kind of cross hatched. Uh, it's a little bit above natural ground level. And that's just because we have a requirement for a minimum of one foot of free board. And so that one foot of free board for it to be contained within the pond, you have to actually do a berm that comes above the natural ground elevation. But if you look at the second image, uh, the, the bottom one for the case three, when you look at it, you'll see that one's a little bit different. And so you'll see there's a, uh, note on there. Um, this one says, um, if greater than three foot depth, a four foot fence with self locking gate must be provided. So in this case, from where it's a vertical, uh, wall, you'll see this as a wet detention pond. There's a vertical wall. Uh, if it's greater than three feet deep, um, then you have to provide a, uh, a fence. And then in addition to that, you'll also see a note, um, that when you, when you look at it, the normal water level, um, let's see, a, a one foot minimum free boards required, but there's also a note that says, um, if you were less than three feet, you may still, uh, be required to have a fence if your normal water level is more than one foot deep. Um, and you'll see that kind of on the bottom of it, it says, um, one foot max without fence. So if, if you have a deeper pool of, of water than one feet, uh, in this type of situation, you would still need a fence. All right. This, this next slide is our case four, uh, slide. And here, what you'll see is you'll see there's a dash line that shows a, um, a four to one slope. And then you'll see there's a solid line that shows a two to one slope. And so on this case, since the two to one slope is steeper than four to one, you'll see there's a, a fence shown on the actual image. And you'll see that this is a dry detention pond. And you'll see if it's, uh, less than two feet deep, no fence is required because of the total depth, but if it's greater than two feet and steeper than four to one side slopes, then they would have to construct a fence. And so we require that if there's anything that's steeper than four to one, even if it is a, a dry pond, if it's deeper than two feet. And then our final slide, um, this is again for a, uh, dry pond, uh, a detention pond. Um, in this case, we have vertical walls and you'll see these, uh, you know, places where I've seen this type of pond design has been in, um, some of the fast food restaurants, and some of the smaller sites where you have to have a pond and they are just, they are limited severely by their, their land availability. Um, but you'll see here with those sides, you know, where it's, it's walled on both sides. There's a requirement for a fence, uh, to be constructed all the way around it. Uh, one of the other things you have when you have something that's walled on both sides or on all the way around, uh, you'll see there's also a note on there that access steps, a ladder or a ramp has to be provided. So if somebody was to still get in, they have a way to get out. So, uh, that way you don't go in and have no way to get out. Um, so with that said, you'll see that basically for the city of Jacksonville, four to one or flatter, we do not require fencing. However, anything steeper than four to one, we do have that fencing requirement and that's, that's shown in all of our land development procedures manuals that the city, um, on, on city projects as well as on projects done by developers and the private community. Thank you. Thank you for that presentation. Councilwoman, you recognize? Thank you, chair. So you, when you showed this design, my, and you talked about fast food restaurants immediately, my mind went to Waffle House because I have, I'm a, I'm a connoisseur of Waffle Houses and I've taken pictures when I go to those Waffle Houses and I've seen, I have not noticed a ladder or any steps, but I noticed the pumping station for most of them and that they're fenced and that they are typically dry. Mr. Long through the chair. These types of designs don't seem to be the issue. The issue is the types of ponds where obviously there's no fencing. They're in proximity to a sidewalk and they are easily accessed by anyone, not just children, just anyone. So what determines the type of retention or detention pond a development uses? And I don't know if that's a question for you or Ms. Parola, because once again, the ponds that are fenced that I see that are along like major interstates like 295 businesses such as Burger King and Waffle House. We don't have any reported deaths with those particular ponds, but it's the ones that are in proximity to multi-family developments, single-family homes that are designed to be attractive. They're designed to be like water features and they're attracting children and children with autism. So I don't know. In a way, I'm like, I don't know if you know how to answer this question, but what determines the type of design? Right. I can give it a try. As far as for wet versus dry, you know, when you're looking at that, the major factors are your soil conditions and your water table elevations. So in Jacksonville, we have very, very few dry ponds. We have very few locations that would even qualify to have dry ponds based on those two criteria. As far as for, you know, ponds being near sidewalks and that sort of thing, a sidewalk being near a pond has no effect on whether it would need a fence or whether it would need some sort of buffer. Many locations throughout the city, actually, they try to make the ponds attractive. They actually put walk paths around them. They encourage their residents to go to them. I'm thinking about like if you go down to St. Augustine, they've got that large pond that's just west of the city that they have the paths and trails that go right next to it. There's no fencing. It's meant to be an amenity, not something you look over a fence at. So it would not have any effect with a sidewalk being next to it. Where a sidewalk could potentially come into play for a fence would be sometimes if you have a pipe going into the into the pond and there's a fence over the pipe. And then when you get to where that pond discharges, there's a head wall. If that head wall has a drop off over a certain distance, then they would actually have to fence off that that head wall. And so you might see where the where the sidewalk crosses over that you may see a fence across that head wall. But that would only be for, you know, 10, 15, 20 feet type of fence requirement. And then it would be open again because the sidewalk would then slope down, you know, that the slopes would go down towards the pond. So it wouldn't be fenced except where you had a drop off type of situation. Thank you for that. I know this is we're in the weeds for sure with this. But it's critical because when we have detention retention ponds that have fences, we don't, most kids aren't going to pull up a latch and go into that fence to try to get into touch, feel the water. But it's those that are readily accessible and within proximity to single family developments and multifamily developments that are that are part of the issue. Thank you. I mean, I've read about this and I appreciate you explaining more about the design features. Thank you, Chair. You're welcome. Thank you, Mr. Long, for that presentation. I'm going to ask you the same questions that I asked St. John's Management. This will be brief. As a matter of fact, I want to ask you the questions. What I would like to see how often the city ponds get inspected? Do we have any ponds that's, I guess, out of compliance and violation? If so, how often as well the last two to three years? So if you could report back to the committee in a couple of weeks, just get us, like I said, a list of city ponds, find out, let us know how often they inspect it. I guess what causes the violation. And yeah, I think the last two or three years will work for us. Right. And I can provide you that information now if you'd like me to. For the city, we have a permit through DEP, National Pollution Discharge Elimination System permit, foam water permit, I'm not sure, NPDES. And as a part of that permit, we have a requirement. We have to inspect all of our ponds every three years. So we do an inspection, a minimum of every three years. We, on most of our ponds, because of the routine maintenance we do, we do a lot of our inspections through our maintenance forces. So we actually do inspections typically even more frequent than the three years, but at the long period of time, no more than three years. And as far as for our ponds being out of compliance, we don't have any out of compliance. If we find an issue, based on it being a pond, we get out and we address it as quickly as we can, either through our maintenance group, through right away in stormwater maintenance, or if it's a more, if it's a larger issue that were to be found where we might need design, then it would go through our engineering division. But anything like that, we would actually address, you know, quickly. Is this through Public Works who inspect these ponds? Yes, sir. Public Works. The complaint process. If someone, the same questions for St. John's. If someone wanted to make a complaint on one of the city ponds, what is that process? Any number of things. Phone calls to 630 City. They can go through in the website, jacksonville.gov. There's a complaint system, which is, you know, the MyJack system, which is basically 630 City. They put it in like that. We get it, and it would go to our right away in stormwater maintenance division, and they would go out and they would inspect whatever issue was called in. So if somebody called in and said, or, you know, if somebody called or emailed or went into the actual MyJack system and said, hey, there's a pond out here with a large washout. One of our road supervisors, one of our, I'm sorry, one of our project supervisors in right away would visit the pond, walk the pond, find what's found. We would plan a repair and get it done. All right. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your presentation. Thank you. Councilwoman Clark, Mary, you recognize. Thank you. Through the chair, Mr. Long, how many inspectors do we have? The persons who inspect ponds, are they inspectors of ponds or are they just a part of Public Works and they have the knowledge to inspect the pond? The latter. So there are Public Works employees that have knowledge of what we require on our inspections for our permit requirements, and they're out inspecting it. So their position isn't necessarily called inspector, but they're out inspecting our pond. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. All right. Appreciate it. All right, Andre. To the chair, to the chair. I know you requested JSO. Do we have time for JSO to come up? Yeah, absolutely. I would love to hear from JSO. I'd like that Sergeant overall from JSO dive team to come up. And if we have any public comments, please make sure you fill out the green cards so we can make sure we recognize you before the end of the meeting. Hey, good afternoon. Thank you for having me here. Jet overall. Let me go to the slide. Boom. Jet overall, Jackson Sheriff's Office dive team. I've been a Sergeant on the dive team since 2014. Our primary mission as the dive team is to search for any evidence which may enter water, whether that be a person, gun, drugs, cars. We train weekly on the search for missing objects. We are a tier one team. We're responsible for primarily Duval County, but we respond to the 19 Northeastern Florida and Southeastern Georgia counties. We've gone as far as searching for the mayor of Chiefland in the Suwannee River to searching for the deputy in Putnam County to searching for most recently the three missing or the two children that drowned and then the gentleman that drowned yesterday. So we recover numerous people who enter water. So I'm available if you have any questions about what we do. We're primarily a post-mortem unit for the Sheriff's Office or a 14-person unit. We're on call 24-7-365. It's our secondary assignment. All of us are police officers, but our primary responsibility is to the other units. I'm a patrol sergeant, so I'm assigned to the patrol division. My lieutenant's a traffic lieutenant, so he's assigned to traffic. All right. Thank you for that. Councilwoman Clark-Murray, you recognize? Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Sergeant Overall, for being here. Are there any, in your experience in diving in detention and retention ponds, are there any changes that you would like to see in design that perhaps hinder your recovery efforts? Through the chair? No, ma'am. There's not really any changes that I would see that would hinder our recovery. We train for everything. If there's gates around the perimeter of the pond, we have ways of going around over through them. We pretty much, there's not much that we can, that hinders us. For instance, Phillips Highway, there's the Wawa. There's a random, like one of the ponds that he was talking about at the Waffle House where it's a straight drop. We've had people that weren't paying attention back into those. We bring our own ladders so we can climb down to get those items. There's another pond similar to that at the Walmart way out on Phillips Highway by the Avenues Mall. So there's not much, the way I would see that would change that would help us in our recovery efforts just because we've trained on going into various environments on a routine basis. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you, too. Thank you, Sergeant. One last question before you leave. We talked about it maybe the first meeting, not a second meeting. Someone brought it to our attention that typically when these kids drown, typically they found close to the bay. When you guys go out to your dive team, are we finding these kids in the middle of the water? Are they closer to the bay or it's just a combination? It just depends on how long they've been out there. So it would depend on which specific instance we are kind of researching, or not searching, searching for. If it's a child with autism who's gone to the water, typically they're closer to the bank just because they go into the water and then the slope of the pond, they kind of like go in a little bit deeper and then they lose their footing and they go in where they're over their head versus somebody who's at like Huguenot Park who's out in the water intentionally goes out to swim and then succumbs to exhaustion or lack of knowledge of swimming. So it just depends on which instance. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having us. Appreciate it. Thank you. Andre, you recommend it. So yeah, so our goals for the next meeting, I know we're a little past that. I'll be very brief with this slide. Our goals for next meeting, we have one more working group meeting next week. Our goal, you know, Tyler, the first nine slides, he talked about the solutions. So our goal is to bundle up, package all those solutions to recommendations and present it at the next committee meeting. Through the chair of the councilman Gaffney, I know you mentioned potentially a meeting. We're looking at maybe that first week in November, potentially? Yeah, I was just thinking that, and it depends on my colleagues. I mean, we can have another meeting, another meeting, and I want to wrap it up maybe in the next couple of meetings. So if it's not the next meeting, it's definitely the meeting after that. Okay. You know, so what I would like to do this next five minutes, it's 445. We want to get out of here by five o'clock. I want to hear from my colleagues just to see, do they have any recommendations, anything else they would like to hear, see, any questions. And we could go from there, I guess. I can go from there. That's it. Yes, sir. So Councilman Gay, you want to be recognized? Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just stuff I've been, notes I've been compiling through all of our meetings that we've been having. We know about the, we've discussed about the House Bill 180, the potential problems with that of legislating mandatory requirements. But I'd like for us to look at it from a different perspective that, that we as a city need to take the lead and be the example. We can sit here with our planning department, with our public works, with projects that we're doing ourself as a city, that we can go ahead and start implementing these precautionary measures in there to protect our community, where we can start implementing fences in our parks and different things that we, we don't have to worry about a developer pushing back on us. We, we are the developer. And so I feel like we need to take the, take the lead and set the example and start implementing that in our own, own developments as what we construct around the city. So the, the other things I would like to see is our, our planning and developmental services can start encouraging private developers to look at putting measures in for protective, protecting our, our most vulnerable. Um, and then, you know, our, uh, I'd like to see the, uh, when we're doing rezonance and we're having these meetings, making that a, a emphasis of, Hey, what, what can you do for our, our community? What can you do for, to protect our most vulnerable and start bringing this, this awareness up in, in, in where we can, and it's not mandating it. There's nothing wrong at all with us sitting here requesting. And, uh, the, the other, uh, thing that, that we could look at doing is, uh, and Ms. Ms. McGillis may, uh, have some input on this as to where we can, as the city say, if you do a development with these protective measures in there, then you get this, the city will give you this rating. And then the realtors can sit there and say, we've got a community based on this rating of safety for the most vulnerable. And we're like I said, we, we can put the incentives in there to, uh, to bring along and not just say, we want everybody in our desires to require everybody to do these measures, but we take and take the lead and we become the example and let the others, let the other developers follow us and educate the developers in these measures of, of, of what's, you know, when they apply for these developments that they receive these package of information of what, what the retention pond, how vulnerable it is to our community. So I think there's a lot that we can do on this side that's, uh, not mandating, but it's taking and being the lead on this. So thank you. Appreciate that. Thank you. Councilman McClough, Mayor, you recognize? Thank you, Chair. I appreciate what Council Member Gay has said, stated in regards to what we can do immediately and through our land use and zoning, um, the bills that are being presented to us now. And I don't necessarily have a question, but I, I do want to, Ms. McGillis, for us to start looking at chapter 120, what was mentioned by the, uh, St. John's River Management District. And to look at the field preemptions that she mentioned, because that seems that we're going to have some, get some teeth or, um, I think she also mentioned chapter 373 for the statute to start looking at those so that we can begin to draft some legislation. I, uh, this, this committee has acknowledged on, on several occasions, the work that Council Member Pittman has done. I think she she started in regards to thinking about what kind of incentives we could propose or what's actually codified to help encourage developers to fence certain, um, retention and depend, detention ponds, and maybe not necessarily thinking about the design, but the proximity to multifamily developments and the potential for, um, fatalities from children and not just children with autism, but children in general. So I appreciate the work that she's done, but I, I, I think there has to be more done because of the fact that children are still dying. And the fact that this is going to impact, we're looking at the impact to not just Duval County, but 18 other counties is significant because we don't know what their numbers are. They may have, they may have higher numbers. The hope is that they have no numbers, but they may have higher numbers. And then through the chair to Ms. Parola, part of my concern is at what point in the planning development process, the permitting process, do we find out about what type of retention or detention ponds a development will have? So that's important too, because through the chair to council member Gaye, if that's not a part of the part, the part of the process that we are a part of as council members, then we have no power there. If you understand what I'm saying, because that you probably know a little more because that's something that you deal with every day. I don't, I build minds, not, not ponds or developments. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, those are the areas that I'd like us to look and it is, it's not necessarily in some cases, the areas that I want us to start researching are specific and others. Ms. Parola are a little more broad, but I think both of those areas, the legal aspect and the design aspect and the permitting aspect are important to help us understand where, what we need to do in order to encourage developers. And if it's encourage them as well as codify so that we save lives. Once again, this whole, our whole commission, our charge is to save lives. That's the bottom line. Thank you. Thank you. So this is what we'll do. Um, we'll meet in two weeks, um, with the intentions of the last meeting being the last, the next meeting being the last meeting. So what I'm asking the special working group is to give us a wrap up and sum up everything we have learned the last two or three months. Absolutely. So if you guys could do that, um, keep in mind, colleagues, the community, President Nick Allen, he did give us tasks to complete. You know, so we, we need to make sure we identify every task that he asked us to complete. What I would also like you guys to do as well, anything that you want to see in legislation, bring to our next meeting. You know, so if we want to craft some type of legislation, please bring it to the next meeting. I do have some thoughts I'm jotting down in my head. So, um, I'll make sure I bring that. Um, now our next meeting, it will be, it'll be November 2nd. I thought you said November 2nd, that Monday? Well, we'll, we'll keep it Wednesday, what we'll do. We have an election, I think November the 2nd, correct? The election is, I don't, let me fill up my calendar. I think the 3rd is the election, that Tuesday. Okay, so the election is November 3rd. Okay, so, which means this room will be occupied. Um, now the next Wednesday, because everything, all the committee meetings is pushed back. So we'll be in the Lynn Woods Robber Building, the Lynn Woods, um, room, um, the same time, next Wednesday, well, November 4th. Yep, November 4th at 3.30. So we won't meet in here, due to committee meetings being in here, um, in a couple of weeks, but we will meet in the Lynn Woods Robber Building. And like I said, I didn't, I include, well, yeah, that, that been our last meeting in a couple of weeks. So, um, we learned a lot of information. I really want to thank you guys for your continued, consistent dedication. You know, I, to this day, I'm still getting calls from parents, emails, asking about legislation, resolutions, what are we doing? You know, so, I'm looking forward to the meeting in the next couple of weeks. Hopefully we'll have some type of solutions. And hopefully we can make Jacksonville happy. And like you said, Councilwoman McLaughlin, mayor, we could save some lives. So thank you. Um, if anyone else don't have any other questions, uh, meeting is adjourned. Do we have any cards? Is there any cards? Los erstmal we're calling? Yes, sir. I'll be around. Thank you.