Helena Porola, Planning Department. Jimmy Peluso, City Council, District 7. All areas, District 11. Joe Carlucci, District 5. Brittany Norris, Mayor's Office. Thank you, everybody, for joining us today. We obviously have a packed room, so thank you all for coming here today, taking time out of your Wednesday morning to be here. This is very important to you all, but to us as well, and thank you. I'm grateful to have Council Vice President Joe Carlucci here and obviously District Council Member 7, Jimmy Peluso. So today's purpose, obviously, we're going to talk about the Free to Garden Act, which is the first rendition of what you guys proposed to us. Since then, we've had conversations with the administration to kind of go over the changes that we're going to be able to implement and realistically, what is already allowable, what's not allowable, and then what's going to be the changes. So I'm going to open up the floor to, first of all, I want to see if there's, before we, because I'm going to go to public comments at the end, but what I would like to hear from at least two individuals from the public right now to kind of set the tone as to where we're at. And Ms. Pittman, thank you for joining us as well, too. I'm going to get a cheer on. All right. VIP. Would you rather sit here? I can move him out of the way if you want. All right. So, okay. All right. All right. So two people, raise your hands to set the tone, to kind of talk about what you guys are wanting and kind of let people that are not familiar with what you guys want. All right. So raise your hands very quick. There you go. One and one more person. Perfect. Nathan, there you go. All right. Let's go. All right. So we'll have two minutes just kind of to tell us a brief about what we spoke last time we met. And yeah, go ahead. Thank you. It does not currently have a lane use category for an urban garden. People throughout our city are growing food for themselves, their neighbors, and their communities. But many are operating in a gray area. In fact, even the IFAS community garden is not street legal. It isn't a gardening problem. It's a rules problem. Suppose I buy a vacant lot. I clean it up. I plant vegetables. And I want to sell some that I grow to my neighbors. You would think there's a category that says market garden. Here are the rules. There isn't. Instead, I may have to spend around $5,000 pursuing a PUD before I've sold my first tomato. That is a very expensive tomato. Because there isn't a clear path, many of our urban gardeners, I love that they're here today, operate in this gray area. Usually nobody has a problem until somebody does. There have been complaints about grass being too tall. Well, that's because it was actually tomato plants. Complaints about unpermitted storage. It was mulch. But the serious one is a market gardener can be cited for operating without a certificate of use, a COU. So they say, okay, let me go get a COU. The problem, we don't have the appropriate land use category to issue them one. Nobody set out to create this problem. It has happened because our agriculture has changed through the years. We don't need a system that's dependent on if your neighbor complains. We need rules, clear rules. The Free to Garden Act creates those rules. It creates reasonable standards for hours, noise, lighting, composting, parking structures, so that gardeners know the rules, neighbors are protected, and city staff have clear standards to enforce. Everybody benefits from clarity. Jacksonville is growing. We have this beautiful opportunity to be proactive instead of reactive, to support agriculture, strengthen our local economy, improve our quality of life, and improve our food security. And there's another thing going on. A market garden isn't necessarily a home business. The land itself is the business. It may be a vacant lot producing food, a neighborhood community garden, or a nonprofit teaching children where their food comes from. Those uses deserve a place. Our own comprehensive plan already recognizes the value of community gardens. We say we want these things now. We need a code that actually allows them. And that's why we're having this workshop. And I'm excited that we're going to work together to get the rules right, give people clear rules, protect their neighbors, and if they follow those rules, let them grow. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Up next, we have Nathan, and then we'll begin with the agenda, even though we kind of already started with the agenda with Jennifer. Can I just give you more time? Good morning. Thank you all so much for being here. Y'all, this is what we've wanted. We've wanted to be in the room with community and with the experts at the city and with our elected officials to workshop a policy that works for us so that we can grow food with and for our neighbors. So I'm thrilled that we're here. It represents a lot of work. I've been puzzled why it took as much to get us here, but I'm just so glad that we're here, and thank you. There are some particular little nuanced things that we'll keep workshopping. I just want to say again, thank you all for being here. All right. So the next thing that's not on the agenda, but I just kind of want to go over, and I'll have Councilman Paluzzo kind of go over his thought process will be on the home occupation bill that's been deferred for, I will say, a couple months now. That's, in my opinion, phase one of this. This needs to go after that. And so, Mr. Paluzzo, go ahead. Yeah, thank you, Chair, for that. So, yeah, home occupation bill, obviously, as most of you have been following, it's basically aligning city code with what the state of Florida has passed in the most recent legislative session. So it's basically allowing for people's homesteaded properties to be used as a means to sell some of their wares and some of their stuff like that. So that's kind of part one to the point of what you made of how do we make sure that we get the Freedom to Garden Act to a place that's kind of legally sound. Some of the issues that, for one, I introduced the bill with Councilmember Chris Miller. Some of the issues that we were facing and sort of just needed to kind of get over was there's a number of overlays within the city of Jacksonville. Overlays kind of have special rules, specifically in the Riverside-Avondale area and, in particular, the Springfield area. So it was just a matter of, like, how do we make sure that what this new state law is asking us, to do, properly aligns with city codes, overlay that we have. So we kind of have been delaying it for a while, but it's going to be moving forward in the next legislative session. So not this week, not next week, but the week after, two weeks almost to the day, the bill should have gone through pretty much all the committees. Then the week after, four weeks from today, it will pass city council, I would imagine. So just want to give you a quick update on that. Go ahead. This is not that. Go ahead, Mr. Pizzle. Yeah. So two weeks from today, it's going to be in committee. So Monday and Tuesday of 31st of August. 31st of August is when it will go through committees, I think Neighborhoods Committee, Rules Committee, and Land Use and Zoning Committee. And then from there, it will pass to the full city council, which is the following Tuesday, which is the 8th of September. And that's when the final vote will be. Council Member Pittman, did you have a question to the chair? I'm going to talk to the party because I've been out because my parents have been sick. But I guess my concern or my question is, is it only the overlay areas and the historical areas we're talking about right now? What about the other parts of the community? The home occupation bill was just us aligning city code with Florida statute. So the state legislature changed the laws for the entire state. We're modeling our charter to align with it correctly. That's all. So it's the whole city. The issues that some or the questions that some members of my district were having, especially in the Springfield area, is there's a lot of special rules within the overlay. So on the bill, it crosses out a ton of things in the Springfield overlay. Some people got concerned about that, but it was us aligning with state law. So it was just making sure that we modeled it in such a way that Springfield has recognized what the issue was. But the bill affects everyone in the whole state of Florida, including everywhere in Duval County. And through the chair, to cut you off, I'm sorry, but the notice meeting only talked about the Freedom to Garden Act, so we can't get into the particulars of the home patient bill and what it affects because that wasn't a part of your notice meeting. So I just want to bring this back on time. Understood. To the point, I think, of what the chair was trying to get at is this is one piece to the overall effort for Freedom to Garden Act. I can make sure that we send you some documentation and notice format so that you can kind of see. I can also send you the bill with the bill summary. But essentially, it's just aligning. And also, you can talk to Terrence offline. I have another meeting to include. All right. Thank you. Thank you. And just to clarify one more time, this bill would be for the entire city, not just for Springfield. Okay. And also, the other part is we'll be addressing a committee on the 31st of August versus September, so we'll have more dialogue those days, too, before it goes to full council on the 8th. But if we need to do another public notice meeting, I'll do it all day. All right. That's what we're here for. I just want to make sure that we address some of the other issues that's concerning this. Maybe we do a public notice meeting next week before it goes to committee so we have more dialogue. When it goes to committee, we already have all that vetted out. So I would like that a lot, if we can do that. Sure. Thank you. All right. Okay. So now we're going to proceed with the original proposed Freedom to Garden Act bill, which the administration has been working on. This is right here, the ordinance, 2026-unknown right now. And then we also have this chart that was created, which talks about the uses of what we currently could do or can't do. So I'll let Ms. Norris kind of take the lead on that, and then you could introduce whoever you want to speak on. Awesome. Thank you, Council Member. So for clarity, because there's been a lot of confusion, this legislation comes off what was initially introduced in the Free to Garden Act. The city's goal is to make the ability for you to grow food on your property, whether it is your homesteaded property or not, more, just easier, with less barriers. We don't want to add more bureaucracy. We don't want to add a lot of rules that we technically cannot enforce or that we just do not have the bandwidth to enforce. So we took some really good parts of the Free to Garden Act. We have built off of that based on our subject matter experts in our sustainability office, our planning department, and our office of resilience. And what we have here is what we are calling the Pathways for Urban Ag bill. Currently, and I just want to be so clear about this, no one is stopping you from growing what you want on your property. So the Free to Garden Act, the name where I see what was the end goal, is a little misleading. So we want to speak to the specific issues, the specific barriers in our code, right, that need to be updated and fixed. So actually, to Councilwoman Pittman's note, and we do not have enough of these, so you will have to share. I think Evan is passing them out. We have built a very comprehensive spreadsheet. And it actually is bigger than this. I beg to Shante to pare it down. But it basically breaks down so what the Pathways to Urban Ag legislation would cover, what the Home Occupation Bill would cover, what's currently covered by the city of Jacksonville, and then also references other state and regulatory entities, and then also to what is not established or regulated by the city. This is kind of a complicated issue with a lot of hands in the pie. So that being said, I'm going to throw this to our subject matter experts, to Director Parola, who leads our planning department, to kind of give an overview of what the Pathways for Urban Ag bill would do. And then whoever on the team wants to pop in as well. Thank you. So I'm just going to go over what the city has put together that was handed out earlier. That's the proposed bill that we're discussing today. And this is taken from your Free to Garden Act documentation and then also listening to you through the food plan, through city council, and having separate meetings from what the community wants. So what this bill does is to highlight, first, it defines urban agriculture, community gardens, and market gardens. And you can see that on page 16 of this bill. And 17, community and market gardens are both for cultivating, harvesting, and production of agriculture or horticulture products. Market garden allows for the on-site sale of goods grown on-site. And I think that was, like, one of our main issues to have that defined. All community and market gardens in all residential districts and all commercial districts. So we clarified exactly what districts they are all allowed in. And right now they're allowed in all the residential districts and all the commercial districts. So we clarified that, and then we included that they are allowed in those residential districts. Allows on-site sales from market gardens. This is subject to limits in performance standards that you'll see throughout the bill. It can sell – the market gardens can sell products grown on-site 12 times a year from sunrise to sunset. So if you're in a residential district, if you're in a low-density residential district surrounded by single-family homes and you have a vacant peak parcel and you're growing on that site, you can sell 12 times a year from sunrise to sunset on-site, grown on-site and sold on-site. Community and market gardens cannot exceed two and a half acres. The more intense commercial districts, like commercial neighborhood and community commercial general districts, there are no additional standards for them. So we have additional standards that you'll see in the bill for the residential areas and some of the low-intensity commercial districts. A market garden or a community garden allows 25% structure coverage. So if something is over 30 inches, it has to comply with applicable building standards. That is as it is today. So that's just a continuation of our current rules. The gardens market and community allows one sign, non-illuminated flat sign up to six square feet. It prohibits – the rest of this is more regulatory type things just to ensure that what's happening on the garden site is appropriate for residential areas. It prohibits heavy equipment except during active work needs, allows the backyard hinge through the permitting process that we currently have in the code. And then it has other requirements in there, and they're basically reminders of the current local, federal, and state regulations regarding the storage of combustible materials, no noise, no noise, smoke, odor nuisances, waste processing and composting, harvesting, processing, packaging, storage and distribution and sale of food. That's just to remind you that while you're in there, there are other state regulations and federal regulations that you have to abide by when doing this. Activities involving fertilizers and involving runoff and protection of groundwater resources. So that's all in there as a reminder that there are additional requirements as you grow and sell on these farms. I think I covered everything. This sheet is really helpful. The Office of Sustainability, Ashante, put this together, and it really does help you understand what we are proposing, what the Home Occupation Bill is proposing, and what's currently allowed. I think that's it for an overview. No, I just have kind of a question or at least sort of a comment, and it's – I think we've been getting a lot of folks showing up. Go ahead. All right. Yes. Can I add one more thing to this? So if you are in a residential district with all the regulations and standards that we have outlined in this bill, and let's say you want to sell more than 12 times a year and you want to draw a crowd or draw – not a crowd, but additional people coming, or if you want to deviate from the standards that are in there, there is a way to potentially get there, and that would be through the variance process. It's already outlined in our code, and the request would go to Planning Commission. We would want to see what you're proposing, how that would impact the area, because we are dealing with residential sites, your parking plans, what type of traffic it would impact depending on the – whatever you're looking to deviate from in the standards. So I just wanted to make sure that was clear as well. I do have a question, and I brought this up last time, but how are we – I was in the middle of a question, Chair. Oh, I'm sorry, non-Chair. I have a question. No, go ahead. Go ahead. No, thank you. I think I do need to be reminded to humble myself sometimes, so thank you, Chair. The narrative, I think, is that people can't grow right now. They can grow right now. Ms. Norris kind of brought that up. I believe you kind of insinuated that. I mean, we had a lot of folks coming up during public comment saying, like, we deserve the right to grow. Folks can grow right now on their property, correct? Correct. All districts can grow. It's just the selling that we're trying to accommodate. And I mean, like, does the crowd believe that? That's something that I want to at least kind of make sure I understand better as we kind of move this process forward. I'll have, actually, very quick, Council Vice President Carter, Ushie, and then Ms. Pittman, and then Ms. Norris. Go ahead. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. What's the difference between a community garden as defined in this legislation and what exists today? Community garden right now is defined in the comprehensive plan, but it's not in the zoning code right now. So right now, you're allowed to do community gardens, but we are clarifying what a community garden means in the zoning code and where it's allowed. Right now, we allow it, but we're clarifying that to make it clear. Okay, understood. So basically, there's two terms in this bill, community garden and market garden. Community garden is ultimately what everyone's allowed to do right now, buy right on your property, just not selling those goods. Market garden is for sale items, no more than 12 days a year. That's the best. Okay. Understood. All right. Ms. Norris. Oh, sorry, Ms. Pittman. Just for clarification for me and some of the people out there, in terms of regulations, if they are selling more than 12 times a year, what's the, is there a fine, is there, and the reason why I'm asking this, people have been doing this a long time, and even more so now with what's going on with government, federal government, right? And I'm just concerned that certain communities might be picked on or can be picked on, and I don't want that to happen. This group, a lot of them I've been working with for over 11 years, we've been doing this. So, if legislation is developed, I think the best people to hear from, as you said earlier, is the people that's actually doing it, not to hurt them, but to help if we're trying to align with the state. Because I don't think for years we've never did that. We did it as a community. So, I don't want putting stuff in place that might hinder what's going on. And, you know, right now, growing your own food is a big deal right now, because at least you know what you're putting in your body. You don't know what you're getting from other people. And a lot of it is small. They're small businesses. So, who are in residential areas, who are in historical areas. So, you know, instead of trying to develop, and just help me, instead of just trying to develop two different pieces of legislation, how do we develop it where it's a good fit for all? You know, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I'm feeling that because I've done it. I have a farm, 10 and a half acres, right? And I've been dealing and working with these individuals for a long time. This has now become a real issue. And we need to try to fix it. We need to let them know as a city that we appreciate what they're doing. And I know I'm on my way out the door, but if I can be of help in crafting this the way it needs to be crafted, and sometimes just because it's done or have been done like that over the years statewide, sometimes it's good to let them know, because a lot of the people that's making decisions aren't the ones that's on the front line, that's all I'm saying. I just want to understand, you know, what we're going to do here or with this that is not hurting people that we're working on the same sheet of paper. Thank you. Ms. Norris, go ahead. Thank you, Council Member. So we were talking about one bill, the Pathway to Urban Act. That has come out of the Freedom Garden Act and a lot of conversation with representatives from that community to find a pathway that, in our mind, we have a lot of work to do. We don't want to be over-regulating these folks. We don't want to make it, just like you're saying, a lot of people have been doing this for a while. By adding definitions and clarifying in the code specifically what they're doing, we are actually, in effect, protecting them. Because now we can show them, yeah, no, you're legally allowed to do that. This is not going to catch every use. There are some folks who are running businesses that are a little bit more robust. They go above and beyond just market garden, their event spaces and things, and we're working to a point where we can support that type of stuff. So we are taking small steps. I think we do need to clarify, though, a few things because we're going back and forth. So the Home Occupation Bill really protects market gardeners on their home property. Right? So because the state took these steps, if you are growing whatever you want on your home property, we can't do much to mess with you. And so we are codifying that protection in the code. The other scenario, and this is what we tried to speak through with the spreadsheet, we do have folks who are growing on land that they don't live on. Right? And so that's where the pathways to urban ag starts to step in and to define what a market garden is, those sale times, all that good stuff. Mr. Harby can speak very clearly to what the state does allow as far as, like, if you want land, you can grow what you want on it. Like, it's protected by the state. And so you can get into the weeds on that. But I think it might also be good to talk about on-site versus off-site sales and be able to be, like, a producer and sell to restaurants. Like, we're talking specifically with on-site. And I imagine in my head it's, like, you have a big event every Saturday at 10 and you attract 100 people. That might be a bit of a burden for your neighbors, right? But if you have, like, a, I don't know, selling online and one person comes by and picks up stuff and leaves, I don't think your neighbors are going to care. We're never going to hear about it. So we are trying to find that middle ground where we can protect the urban ag folks, but we can also protect the residential areas as well. But can you guys speak more to, like, on-site versus off-site? And then maybe also clarify, if I live on the property, what I'm doing, and then if I don't live on the property, and this is just a blanket, like, parcel I have. Oh, and for clarity, we are only talking about properties you own. This is not empowering you to grow in, like, right-of-ways, JEA right-of-ways, give you permission to go grow in vacant lots. Like, that's the conversation between you and the landowner. So this is just speaking to property that you own or have legal permission to be on. So go ahead. So we put a lot of work into this, especially hearing from a lot of members in the community. So off-site sales, the city does not regulate that. So if you grow something and want to sell it to a restaurant or a community member or distribute it for free, that is not regulated by the city. You need to be in compliance with FDACs or other entities. When it comes to the selling, we define the 12 days a year as sell days. So in a residential district, if you're bringing a lot of members into the community, a lot of traffic, we as a city need a way to ensure that community members have a way to communicate that. So if it's one or two people coming to pick up something on a random day, that is incremental. That does not really affect this. But this is like, hey, I'm having a big sale, like, on the fourth Saturday of the month. And the 12 days a year, we know that growing harvests are not consistent, so they don't have to be consistent. You can do 12 times back-to-back in one season. So we wanted to provide that parameter and the variance process, I want to stress that more than anything. If you are a starting gardener, it's great to start within the parameters of the 10 days a year. But if you know you're going to be really great on social media, have a great following, come to the planning department and we will get you started on the variance process so you can go above and beyond and know the pathway to do what you want. So we did put a lot of work into this. I'm just happy to answer any more questions and to clarify, the 12 days a year is also modeled after what is already allowed in a residential district, which is a yard sale. It's the same exact language we pulled from that, and we tried to make it something that was comparable, understoodable, and could be accepted by community members that may, you know, be NIMBY. So this, yeah, good question. So this legislation provides a by-right pathway for community gardens and market gardens. The variance will have a cost associated because there is a number of notices that have to go out to the community members within a parameter and some administrative work that has to happen within the city. So there will be a cost associated, and we're, I don't know if you guys have that cost, but we're working that out. I don't know, we're looking that up right now. And a variance would be heard by the Planning Commission for review. So for residential districts, the base fee for a variance application is $1,161, and then there's noticing fees that have to go out. So that will be $7 per property located within 350 feet. But generally, most variances don't exceed $1,300, $1,400. Mr. Cardi, should you go up? Will you? Go ahead. So I got a little problem with that because a lot of these individuals who are growing a small business, I don't think you all took into account of that, all right? So especially if you live in areas that we're talking about with this legislation, that's a lot of money when, you know, you might only be making $300 one of those 12 weekends. But on the front end, in order to make money, you got to spend a whole lot of money that you don't even have, not including insurance. Now there may be reports, depending on what you're doing. I think we need to think about the folks who are doing this because those are the ones that are in the audience, right? So if we were big fish, we probably wouldn't have a problem. Or those that have big farms that are making a whole lot of money might not have an issue with that. But these folks are small business or they doing it, and I'll use Panama Park, you know, that Roxy is doing. And a lot of this work is done out of passion. So it's not like they're really trying to make a whole lot or they just started a business. So we got to think about them. I think right now we're thinking about the people that live in the neighborhoods rather than the folks that are interested in growing like the property. But that's still a lot of money. All right. Let me just give you my thoughts very quick before I give it to Joe Carlucci. So I had two questions, and one was the 12 times a year. Obviously, just to clarify, if they want more than 12 times, that's where they have to get the variance, and that's when the fee comes in. And so anybody needing more than 12 times a year, that's the variance, just for clarity on that part. We didn't address HOAs. What's going to happen with HOAs? Because obviously some of these people, I know neighbors of mine live in HOAs. They grow, you know, honey and all that kind of stuff. So do you guys have a communication with HOA? Where are we at with that? Let me send that to Terrence because I know he's done some research on that. The ways are governed by their own rules and regulations. We can't trump what those private citizens entered into. So that is a contract that you decided when you signed your deed and entered into that PUD and going into that HOA. So there are statutes that govern that allow you to garden in your home, and there's a specific one that allows you to do certain front yard gardening and beds and things like that. But our ordinance will not trump an HOA. It will result in if the HOA board has some issues with it, that will be a private dispute between that landowner or that homeowner and the HOA board. Okay. And I know this meeting is not about the home occupation, but in a way it kind of does. If we're mimicking the state statute for the home occupation bill, doesn't the state statute automatically trump any HOA? So I think that's a bit of a – I think what you're doing, we're trying to conflate issues. So what we're doing without getting into the details is just becoming compliant with what the state statute allows per home occupations. What will happen inside those individual PUD or individual HOA communities is something that would be permitted based off of the rules and regulations within that community. So even if there is a state statute that says, hey, you have a right to garden, HOA can't trump that. But the HOA can put guardrails on what they allow for their community, whether that's aesthetics, whether that's – you can't garden and it's invisible from your neighbor's yard or from passing through and things like that. Those things are the type of regulations that the HOA is permitted to do that the city can't do because those are private communities which govern – which have their own governing bodies, which they must abide by. Yeah, sure. I mean, just to – from time that I worked in Tallahassee, I mean, the folks in Tallahassee love their HOAs from the perspective they have a giant chapter in Florida statute just on HOA law and what HOAs have the right to do and not do. So, yeah, so if Florida statute directs HOAs or stops HOAs from being able to object to something, then so be it. But for the most part, Tallahassee is very strongly on the side of what – you know, HOAs being able to stop stuff like this. So they're not going to overstep that probably just because maybe about 60% of the entire state of Florida at this point is an HOA development. All right. That's your credit. All right. Thank you. Like one clarification real quick. So for a community garden or a market garden, do those have to be homesteaded properties or do they just have to be owned by an individual that does gardening there? No. No, they do not have to be homesteaded. Okay. You have to have permission. I mean, if you're going to grow and sell on a site, it has to – every site has to have permission of the property owner. Okay. And then as far as the variance goes, is there a way to get that to come to LUZ and not just planning commission? Can there be a code change just for the variance for this specific, like, use, so to speak? Because I don't want all the variances coming to us. But just as we wade into these waters, like, you know, we don't want to – I think the council members in each district kind of want some say in, hey, we're about to approve this variance for this large market garden and all the – you know, if that happens. It's like, I'm just looking at a little down the road. Okay. So who would – can I – would I be amending this bill to include that or is that a separate piece of legislation? It would have to work in tandem because we may have to approve the current code of – the zoning code as it currently is written in 656. Okay. Do you want to go ahead and get started on that for me? Thank you. All right. Thank you. And then the last point, and I think that makes a great point because also at LUZ, if I'm not mistaken, we could also – we have the option to also waive fees, correct? We've waived fees before, not for specific cases like this, but other cases for, like, people applying for things or getting appeals and not, you know, whatever the case is. As LUZ members, we could potentially waive these fees as well too, case by case. If the code permits, yes. I do know that upon a withdrawal of an application, you have the right to waive fees, but not, you know, laterally just as an applicant comes up and requests a fee waiver. That is not currently permitted under the code. Okay. Well, to Ms. Fittman's point, I also fear that, you know, some of these fees may be too large for some small businesses. They are small businesses, and that's exactly what it is, and that's what I'm taking into consideration here. The cost of overheads for small businesses across our nation is growing, and for us to add more on top of that, that's a big no-no in my opinion. I would personally like to see a test trial maybe for the first year, not even have any fees at all, to see how many people actually come and apply for these fees or these waivers. And if the case is, okay, it's hundreds of thousands, all right, we need to figure something out because now we're exerting too much of our manpower at our city. But if it's only five cases per year, then so be it, just give them that waiver. And so that's what I would like to see on this legislation, like Ms. Fittman stated, potentially for the first year, a trial period to see how many people actually need a waiver. And in order to get this waiver, we talked about having to have documentation and so many more things, right? So this is a first of its kind, and because if it's a first of its kind, let's just kind of ease into it, not let's just put the hammer down. I know the intent was never to really hurt anybody here. That's just how we work. But now this is why we had these conversations, to have dialogue, to see how we can make something good better. And I think we could definitely make this better thanks to the point that you brought, Ms. Fittman. I'm loving DSA, Raul, right now. Hell yeah. Let's do it, man. Go ahead. A lot of the small businesses, too, they collaborate, right? So somebody might grow some collard greens. I might grow some okra, squash, or however it is. But a lot of them, it's their first time doing this, right? So you really don't know you got something until you collaborate after us, right? There's a young man, very bad, who collaborated with us on some things that we didn't have. And it was like a big seller. And then he went out on his own. And so, again, we got to make way for, you know, he might have not had to do a variance on his own. It wasn't until he collaborated with someone. And so I think we need to think about the big picture, which is fine. But in order to get to the big picture, you got to start small. And as you said, a lot of them are small. So I just want us to just keep that in mind and even thinking about collaborations with some of the individuals. And Ms. Parola, I don't want to just have more workload. Like I said, if it's five variances a year, I don't think that really will affect your office, you know, tremendously. But if it exceeds us, let's say, five or ten, then we could have this conversation. Then we will have this conversation again as a collective body, a community, and also over here to see, okay, what's a realistic fee that we need to charge? Because it does cost us money to also, you know, do the work. But then the other part will be the $7 per property notice fee. That's the part that we may have to charge that fee in order to at least get the word out to the neighbors. You know, that's a compromise. And $7 per property, 10 properties, $70, we're done. I think that's a fair approach to things. All right, Mr. Did you want to say anything else? That's exactly what I was going to ask you to consider, that the application would at least pay for the noticing fee, and we do have to post signs on the site. So we would notice every property owner within 350 feet, that could be 10 property owners, it could be 50. So just be aware, it could be $350, it could be $30, it just depends on where your property is located. I'll get to you next, Mr. Carlucci, go ahead. All right, yeah. I don't like the, the only reason I don't like the waiving the fees is because there's a lot more people that have small businesses that are just sitting in this room. So we can't get into this, you know, model of waiving fees because we want to or we can because then we have no leg to stand on when the other thousands of small businesses come to us and ask for the same exact thing. I mean, we are screwed at that point because we made it on a basis of we wanted to do it, so we did it. And that's just my opinion. But look, let's just be clear. If someone's applying for a variance, you're making money, like in my opinion. You should be outgrowing, no pun intended, like your garden. You should be thriving, right? And if you're, you could, like if they go to RAM, you got to pay to go to RAM. And that's every month. It's a business. If you want to be successful in your business, we got to be careful with giving it to one group and not another. That's all I'm saying. Let me just let, we take, and I'm going to use the cultural council. And we have three minutes left. Okay, cultural council, we have categories. If you make an X amount, if your budget is X amount of money, you pay this. And if it's not, you don't. And I'm just, I just, if we're going to do this, let's do it fair. Let's do it right. And now, granted, not a whole lot of them are making a whole lot of money, but it's not that they can't. So, let me, we can't compare them. I need to respond. So, I have a friend that I go to church with, and she has a little food cart that she takes out to South Bank. She had to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for the licensing, for the X, for the Y, for the Z. She ain't making money out there. Make it right, though, is all I'm saying. What I'm saying is, if we do it for this, we got to do it for that. So, it's more than just this room. That's all I'm saying. I'm not disagreeing that it's a burden. I'm just thinking we can all agree that you better be ready. I think we're going to have more dialogue on this. That's all I'm saying. All right, Mr. Peluso. We got neoliberal capitalist Joe Carlucci over here. I'm kidding, everyone. I'm good. Now, one of the things I was going to bring up is the Northwest Trust Fund does add dollars for food deserts. If we wanted to maybe take a couple bucks out of that to maybe help pay off the offset for maybe the first year, there are dollars in there that we could discuss moving forward. Because if this helps solve the food desert issue. That's what I love about you. You always come up with the resolution. Well, it's – and I'm not saying we take $500,000 out of it, maybe $10,000 or $15,000. And that way we get the first year and kind of see what the number looks like. Because this is, I think, a policy goal that, you know, we've been hoping to kind of work on for a while now. Just worth kind of having that conversation. Ms. Green, and then – Last thing I'll add, for those of you that worked hard on the Free to Garden Act and the language there, there are some things you're going to notice is not in the Pathways to Agriculture because the city is not able to regulate or desiring to, including sales caps. So you will not notice a cap on your potential to sell at the dollar amount. So that was one thing we made intentional here. And there were a number of things about education and processes, and you guys mentioned code enforcement. The city is working on a state of the food plan. That will include some of those mechanisms to educate and make sure that the city is supporting you overall. But I just wanted to clarify those things. You do have a potential to sell to the dollar figure that you're allowed to in compliance with other state legislation. Thanks. Thank you so much. All right. This meeting has to conclude exactly at 11 o'clock. Did anybody want to speak? And if so, you could speak to me privately because it's already 11 o'clock. I fear – not fear. I foresee that this is going to probably have another meeting before the following committee day. So with all that being said, thank you all for joining us, and thank you over here as well, too, for the hard work that you guys put here. Thank you. Meeting adjourned. Thank you.