Local Planning Agency - Jun 11, 2025

always fun to do but i keep missing you know the the june 11 2025 meeting of the local planning agency of the city of dunedin will now come to order the local planning agency is an advisory board of citizens appointed by the city commission this board is comprised of volunteers who represent the thoughts and concerns of the community the purpose of tonight's meeting is to make recommendations to the city commission regarding each item on the agenda tonight's format will be as follows i will introduce each item on the agenda after which the city representative will present information about it thereafter the members of the local planning agency will have an opportunity to ask questions of the city representative finally anyone from the public may come forward those from the public wishing to provide comment will need to approach the lectern state your name and address and then utilize the microphone at the speaker's lectern in order for their comments to be recorded individual speakers will be limited to three minutes of speaking time and we kindly request that speakers are respectful of the countdown clock citizens speaking on an agenda item or during citizen comment will not engage in loud boisterous and or disruptive speech or conduct all right any speaker that has continued inappropriate or irrelevant comments will be requested to relinquish the podium by the chair that's me the first item on our agenda is to approve the april 9 2025 lpa minutes other any corrections additions or deletions to the minutes no super hearing none do i hear a motion to accept the minutes as submitted motion to accept thank you it has been moved and seconded to accept the minutes as submitted all those in favor signify by saying aye aye thank you all right we are we are now open for public input does anyone from the public wish to speak on any of the items of this evening we were just doing as you can be sworn in and chair that's just for the minutes we're just asking for public um comment on the vote for the minutes sorry i misunderstood that the second item on the agenda is recommendations recommendation to the city commission regarding ordinance 25-02 amending chapter 111 of the land development code historic preservation and resolution 25-13 amending the certificate of appropriateness matrix as required by chapter 111 of the land development code i think you need to okay i recuse uh because i sit as chairman of historic preservation advisory committee currently thank you and may be excused if it's back okay sure all right we will now hear from our staff people good evening chair and committee um or local planning agency i'm frances leong sharp planner two for the city of dunedin um as well as the staff liaison to the historic preservation advisory committee uh what we have here this evening is our historic preservation ordinance and our certificate of appropriateness matrix update um we do have um our consultant here this evening her name is blair nightly from kimley horn um she alongside with uh the city attorney and myself um we will be um providing a presentation to you about um giving you a um i guess an overview of what's uh changed in our historic preservation ordinance as well as the uh coa matrix so before we um jump right into the ordinance itself um just to give everybody a background of the historic preservation ordinance that we have in place today um this whole effort um in terms of our historic preservation program with the city um started all the way back in 2015 um there was a workshop that took place uh with the city commission um as a result of the interest in wanting to create a historic preservation program and then from then on um in 2018 our first iteration of the historic preservation ordinance was uh adopted and then fall in the following year we did some amendments to the ordinance um in an effort to become a certified local government uh which is a like essentially a certification from the state to indicate that we do have a program that follows the department of interior standards from um the national um guidelines and then as a result of having that ordinance in place um there are um items that the historic preservation advisory committee had felt that there needs to be a little bit of a cleanup after a few years of implementations we've had 25 local landmarks designated homes to date and here we have to you this evening is the changes that we would like to modify within the ordinance as well as the coa matrix um sorry about that i speak kind of loud so i will quickly go over the recommendations to the ordinance changes for you so you understand why we made those changes uh so some of the things that we changed major changes to the ordinance really was to clean up the matrix and this matrix really was saying who approves what for this the certificate of um of appropriateness so any exterior alterations for landmarks had to uh we had to go by the matrix and that matrix essentially had city commission improving a ton of stuff and it was really onerous for city commission and so we said let's look at the matrix and really come up with a better process that is easier for everyone and so what we did is we really clarified who reviews what type of alterations to the landmarks and hopefully um properties with any any coa essentially and so what we did is we created a staff approval process we created where the h-pack now the historic preservation uh committee yep so they're not advisory anymore and then they approve items and then also the city commission can approve items so really the city commission now with this matrix change really only reviews the big stuff like demolition new construction things like that uh we we wanted to make sure that the staff had the the level of approval and then we wanted to make sure that the h-pack the experts could um approve things too and so um we created a flow chart and then we also required a pre-app with staff uh the reason we did that is because some coas really actually don't need coas if you're just repairing we wanted to make sure that applicants come in if they were just repairing things they don't need a coa so staff can say hey go ahead and do your thing but pre-apps with staff really help in terms of hey what what are you trying to ask for on the exterior of your home and trying to get an idea for the applicants what what's going on and what they're asking for so here's an example of the coa process flow it really just kind of shows this is the application staff reviews it staff determines who needs to review it does it go to staff is staff able to approve it if not then it goes to the historic preservation committee and then if it's even higher than that it goes to the city commission for review some more major updates to the ordinance the h-pack is now hpc they are a decision maker they're not advisor anymore we added definitions to the ordinance there wasn't a lot of definitions we added the language for mitigation so when a property is not a landmark the city may require mitigation options like documentation photo documentation things like that we also added the ability to designate historic districts and that was one of the biggest ones right that was not an option before and so typically when you have a historic preservation ordinance and you have a landmark process you also have a local historic district process as well and so we wanted to make sure we added that we updated the notice requirements because the notices requirements for the landmarks weren't really following the same process that the rezonings and all of those take and it was a little confusing for applicants and also staff so we cleaned that up and then we also cleaned up the landmark designation process just clean up stuff a lot of cleanup i would say in that ordinance and then this is i'm not going to go through the notice requirements and and all of that but this is just a really user-friendly way to know how the uh notice requirements work because i don't think that was really laid out for applicants beforehand and then here's the local landmark process flow so in a local landmark application submitted staff reviews it they draft a recommendation report hpc reviews it then hpc holds a public hearing and they have a recommendation to the city commission so landmarks always go to the city commission for approval or denial whichever one and the local historic district process we want to talk about the local historic districts tonight a little bit because that's a new very new process for the city one of the issues that we kind of ran into and we've had a couple workshops with city commission on this topic was who can submit an application for a historic district uh so what we kind of landed on with the city commission and um i guess staff we all kind of came up with property owners with a hundred percent support so that's one entity that can submit a historic district application so for example um if you have a group of local people maybe y'all were live on the same block and you want to designate your block as a historic district all of you have to agree to come in and apply so if if uh agency member johns did not want to have his house he says no then we can't accept the application because you don't have a hundred percent of the owners in that district applying and then the second person who can apply and this is just to apply for a historic district is the city manager and i want to make sure i read this correctly the city manager under circumstances in which a failure to designate a proposed district as a historic district would result in irreparable harm to the character of the city the reason we have that is for some reason it's almost like a fail safe if there's something happening that the city manager needs to step in and apply for a historic district they can apply that does not mean this is approval it is just an application the next step would be staff reviews the application they make sure it meets all the standards then the historic commission hears it makes a recommendation to city commission and then city commission has the final decision so just like landmark process city commission has the final decision on historic districts too so we just want to make sure that's clear because we did have some concerned citizens about having the city manager be able to apply for the historic district we just wanted to make sure the city had some fail safe in case something we don't know you know you always try to come up when you're writing ordinances you try to come up with the worst case scenario what could happen uh you know the unintended consequences and so that's why we kind of had that fail safe in there um so that's what the process for the local historic district would be and then i'll try to go quickly but what is a local historic district it's an optional tool in the toolbox for preservation for the city it is not a requirement it again the homeowners have to be 100 on board um it's it's similar to the landmark process it's just a group of buildings and most of the time when it's a historic district it really is a puzzle right um not one piece is significant on its own but when it's together when it's a puzzle it's a historic district and so we wanted to make sure that that was an option and we've all been to many historic local historic districts in very famous cities and they really do create um a sense of place or continue that sense of place that they've already have and a local historic district really helps protect those structures within that district um it the goal is to discourage demolition within that district and that's why we were really pushing um we we really heard that the homeowners really wanted to have the say and and that's why we went with a hundred percent requirement and then the designation process really is lengthy it isn't you can't it's not just a piece of paper you turn in right um it involves many steps you have to really have a historic resource survey of the district conducted by usually an architectural historian they um in that report within that survey they talk about the period of significance and why these buildings are either culturally architecturally or locally significant and then that survey really talks about contributing and non-contributing structures so within a historic district you typically have contributing and non-contributing structures contributing essentially means they contribute to the overall character of that district a non-contributing structure is usually built outside of that period of significance so for example if you've got a hundred homes in a historic district not all of them are going to be from that same period of significance some of them might be 1980s that would be a non-contributing structure but we don't want to pluck that out of there because the whole district is one and so we wanted to make sure that you guys kind of understood because a lot of the city commission had some questions about what is the contributing versus non-contributing structure and then we created these frequently asked questions um we just kind of put these in here uh we we anticipated some questions from citizens uh if this does get recommended further on we have those but i'm not going to read those tonight but we have those for you in case you wanted to see those but i'm i'm here if you have any questions um we really hope that you support these uh ordinance changes and we're we're here on standby thank you thank you sir uh do we have any questions of staff is there any way to see on the matrix what was requiring city commission approval before oh do we have the before i because it looks like there's there's only two things now demolition over 20 or relocation yep it seems to me like this is giving an awful lot of power to the committee the preservation committee yep correct yes sir and and that was intentional because the preservation committee is actually required to be composed of preservation and similar professionals right so they're the ones that are the experts in preservation so that's why we wanted to make them have the decision making and that's pretty standard in most municipalities that have local historic districts it does remove the city commission's view of how that fits into the overall context of dunedin though wouldn't i be right so we well good good point typically in order for the city the historic preservation committee to approve changes they have to either adhere to the secretary of interior standards the code or they have to provide some type of evidence and it's you it's quasi judicial so they would have to provide some type of evidence as why they're approving or denying those changes and so they kind of fall back on ordinance secretary of interior standards and then if it's a historic district they have typically design guidelines within that okay okay so just building on this one more time is there any appeal process say i'm a property owner and i don't like this can i then go to the commission yes sir yes yep exactly good question on the historic district is there a minimum size so did we say more than one is that yes that's what we said we said more than one okay so it's a group yes thank you so when you say the whole block needs to agree how about individual street or side of a street or is there two homes is enough to to say a district yep and we i don't anticipate that happening um because they would just become landmarks on their own uh but if i i foresee it's more of a whole full block front you know north south east west block of a street that's probably where it might start is there currently interest in uh in dunedin for a particular area to become a district i don't have any i don't know have knowledge of any actual citizens that and typically good point to bring up is the majority i would say every historic district i've ever seen was grassroots it was the neighborhood saying we want to protect this sense of place this beautiful area we're coming together and we're going to become a historic district so it's not top top-down approach um specifically for dunedin i don't know that i i have heard of any specific area that wants to become a historic district who initiated the proposed changes going from what was currently to what this is being recommended so this is all stemmed from the historic preservation advisory committee after having the existing ordinance in place for a few years and actually implementing the the provisions of that ordinance the committee had recognized that there are some things that needs a little bit more clarity and in addition to from precedents that were set in in implementing the ordinance one good example would be the kellogg mansion that one had the committee had attempted to initiate an application on behalf of the without the owner's consent and those are the things that we have in place in our existing ordinance that gives the ability for one to initiate an application without the owner's consent and that's one of the things that we want to clean up and and so with the new proposed ordinance we are saying that especially for a local landmark in itself that the owner has to consent to wanting to designate their property as a historic landmark and then the other thing is the coa matrix in itself where many of the proposed improvements that a homeowner we've already had at least three or four homes that have come forward for a coa process one of which is commissioner walker's home where he wanted to replace windows that ultimately within the matrix that we have right now would rise to the level of city commission commission approval which the city commission was first of all was uncomfortable in making that determination and also the processes in itself it seems to be a little bit too extreme onerous yes the only thing i'll add to that is there were several meetings where there were certificate of appropriateness that came before the city commission and during those meetings the city commission said it is this something that we really need to be making a decision on or wouldn't it be better suited for the historic preservation committee to be able to do that on um the historic district so it's more than one do they have to be contiguous yes somehow yes sir and then as far as any changes to the the landmarks and things do you see more homes than would now you think be requesting to become part of that or is this going to make it easier harder i you want to answer yeah i can um i guess based upon um as we speak right now i have a pending application for a landmark designation and i think it's all in waiting for this new ordinance to come into play uh one of the things that we also have um made changes to this proposed ordinance is rather than um designating you know having basically providing an option to designate the property as for its structure or for the parcel the entire parcel itself so the adopted ordinance that we have right now um for any landmark designation that comes through it's designating the entire parcel so any structure that is in that parcel is designated as a historic landmark uh versus what we're proposing is that there is an option for one to just designating uh for example just the the historic home and not the other elements on the property thank you so i think to kind of piggyback i think it would be easier for homeowners to have their properties landmark because the process is now delineated easier the notices is it's much more clear uh this any changes on the exterior does not have to go to city commission just for minor minor improvements so i think to answer your question yes i think it would be easier yes thank you can you go through what the appeals process is say the historic commission commission rules something and i'm not happy with it as a property owner what is my next step jennifer do you want to answer that i can't exactly remember how we wrote it so i'll have to go through and look at each section but i can tell you like for instance i have up right now the um when they're designated i think this is with regard to the certificate of appropriateness um if h-pack denies that well or regardless i should say h-pack's decision on that um if it was appealed it would go to the commission so um and i believe that in most of them if it would and staffs would go to h-pack yep yep and then all of the other determinations are made by the commission you know with regard to the landmark designations or with regard to the historic districts is that it one more if i could the um the historic preservation typically takes uh into account the facade the exterior shell of the buildings nothing nothing with the interior i'm guessing and how uh how about topography in uh areas that are historically that may have been built uh you know we have rising oceans and things like that any okay any thought on some of that so if you're asking for resiliency options for historic districts is that way you're kind of so with historic districts we anticipate a historic district would have design guidelines and we would hope that they would incorporate resiliency options if they are in dunedin particularly on the coast um charleston savannah they all have really been the leaders of this and they have really worked on guidelines and really they have like these user guides to help with that kind of compatibility if you have to rise a building over all the other historic buildings um so i think that the design guidelines would be very important for a historic district in the future um for local historic local landmarks you would look at them individually and what they're proposing and as a coa i think the h-pack and the staff would look at it to make sure that any resiliency options did not diminish the character and the importance of that building and i would hope that they would take into consideration the location when they're making that decision ironically i stayed at the hotel that you were showing for savannah oh did you and uh that was about three flights of stairs above the sea level yeah so it's it's pretty easy to manage historic districts when they're three flights above of course but it gets pretty challenging when it's you know 15 feet or less exactly i'm just throwing that out for consideration so you we don't have somebody that gets uh not thinking this through and then all of a sudden they're in a historic district and they're kind of stuck so that i think that we've had those kind of concerns we've heard those before and a lot of historic districts are going through that right now and that's why i think it's good that we haven't had historic districts in dene Eden yet because the design guidelines should take into account the resiliency pieces when they do that yes does anyone from the public want to comment on this issue good evening joe farrell 4590 olmerton road uh i'm here on behalf of the suncoast tampa association of realtors and our 25 000 members here in tampa bay and admittedly i was made aware of this on monday afternoon and uh after being out for two weeks um i have a lot of questions uh mainly because we've worked on this in other cities and other places not just in tampa bay but around the country or into similar to this uh first would be when it comes to local designated districts when they are city manager uh initiated does it still require the hundred percent approval of the property owners uh that is something that would be of interest to us um and that falls in line with the second thing which the section that we have is you know our association is very much in favor of historic preservation um we encourage it in many municipalities as much as they possibly can um we have a great track record of working on that especially believe it or not in the virgin islands um and what's been going on there um our question though is is that what happens is it possible for someone to initiate historic preservation on someone else's property similar to things that happened in st petersburg where there is a large group of citizens trying to pull that back um the way the ordinance is written the way i read the 38 pages it was it seemed like it always requires a hundred of the consent of the property owner and if a property owner wants to do this or if you want to buy a property that has already done this you know that going into it or at least you should know what you're getting into when you buy a property um but if not there are definite uh there are definite things about this that might make a homeowner say i'm not sure and we're a little curious and staff may be able to answer this about the intervener status and what that means the intervener being the person that is either abutting across the street across an alley are they able to initiate a process on it and an example of that is if i tell my prop my neighbor one day as we're just chit-chatting i mean after two hurricanes i don't want to deal with this again i'm going to raise my property up and get some new windows and do this and whatever i'm planning on doing that the next six months and then three weeks later i get a notice in 14 days that i have to go before the hpc about store preservation possibility of my property because my neighbor's like well i don't want that uh that's a concern that that happens and it in st pete with their third party designation system that happens quite a lot i will say they do get a lot which we actually encourage is the smaller three houses together five houses or whatever because they try to do the large districts if you're in historical northeast that is not historic neighborhood they just chose that name you can go online to pick your own name but they try to do the whole community and that has not worked out there was a lot of people that didn't want that so now they are doing the little chunks of people are going together and we wholeheartedly believe there's a property right to designate your property that way at the same time it's a property right to make sure that someone else doesn't do that to you if it's not something you want to do because an historic home it's more expensive to maintain it's more expensive to rebuild and it just may be more expensive to have less what you want to do in the future with that property thank you thank you those were great questions is anyone else a couple more thank you okay um so i've been this is my third reading of this ordinance i've been at every name and oh sorry ryan saunders 250 lynn her street um so this is my third reading of this i've been very involved from the beginning been appreciative of the city listening to what we as the residents have to say adjusting the ordinance as we go but tonight i just want to walk through scenarios so we're all thinking the same way in the way we present this to the residents i personally live in fenway on the bay where homes were built in the 1940s that makes them contributing structures under the city's definition the home over 50 years old now i want to walk through the scenario of the hurricane worse than helene worse than milton we had significant damage to our own house my neighbors also faced massive damage in this next storm but someone complains because demolition is on the agenda for a lot of homes complains the city manager city manager under this new ordinance has the authority based on character and irreparable harm to the city that this may take on that they could initiate a historic district so this vague language gives the city manager some power to circumvent that 100 property owner rule um the other step in this is also doing the surveys that take some time but it's already been done kimberly horn's already shown the three districts that have been built out at least on the south side of dunedin and if the city manager files this application this is where i get concerned section 111-1-7d no permits shall be issued for any exterior alteration new construction demolition or relocation while this is pending approval from the city commission h-pac this application is in jeopardy homes are damaged there is this moratorium on anything to be done while the city manager has initiated this historic district because there was expecting irreparable harm to the community and we're all stuck we don't have a way to build we can't do anything the other point of clarification i just want to make sure it gets made here is it's saying a significant constant in the in the ordinance today it says a historic district is significant concentration or continuity of sites to mean that means that it doesn't have to be contiguous so i want to make sure we get that clarified because let's say one neighbor over here one neighbor over here now i've got this weird kind of hodgepodge that makes up a district so let's validate does it need to be contiguous or not and then the other piece of this would be just does this align with the overall goals of of what the 2035 comprehensive plan includes i don't see any mention in there of the need for historic districts we don't see anybody asking for historic districts let's make sure it is a hundred percent of property owners that get to decide that i think that's great everything should be voluntary i'm just hyper concerned about that ability for the city manager i love jennifer i think she does a good job but there's going to be different city managers 50 years from now different storms that we're going to have to deal with different resiliency requirements we're going to deal with let's make sure that's considered and i just i just asked the team here to look at these scenarios that we've laid out and also make it clear to the residents what it means cost-wise for them what is the coa application cost what are the costs associated with appeals and resubmissions what are the costs of hiring architects to support this consider that in the faqs that go out to residents as well thank you thank you john shine 217 aberdeen i'd like to reiterate a couple things that ryan said because i think it's really important um we we're we're neighbors actually uh he lives on the other side so like different addresses but neighbors when character overlay was uh in flux and some of you probably voted for that there was a building moratorium and no one in my neighborhood and i i use the word neighborhood loosely it was a huge district could build a new home okay all building was frozen for two or three years i don't have the exact but during those two or three years was covet and if you know what happened to construction costs over covet they went through the roof just absolutely through the roof so as those houses were sitting there either demolished or rotting and looking to be rebuilt construction costs probably doubled or tripled all while people who had legitimate reasons to build a new home were frozen absolutely frozen so if you can imagine the cost of your construction doubling or tripling and already having plans and knocking down the home i have a neighbor also a neighbor ryan's who knocked down their home had an empty lot and we're just sitting there for three years waiting for approval and then had to redo their design three or four times so it's it's that kind of piece that becomes a real concern but more importantly it's the it's my concern is the fact that the city manager can make a decision to put my home into a historic district it doesn't require 100 if the neighbors ask for it so if two of my neighbors on one side and two on the other happen to put a historic district together or maybe one investor buys two on one side and two on the other it's got a historic district and then goes to the city manager says look at this one in the middle needs to be historic too the city manager can make that decision now we're in court now we're creating all kinds of problems and it's costing me hundreds if not millions of dollars to defend the home that i care for so when you say it's a hundred percent have to volunteer it's only if people volunteer if you don't volunteer this can happen to you and it can be very expensive very costly and it can wipe away much of the value of your property and it could also for anyone who my children who would inherit the home i'm just going to finish my thought just finish your sentence yes my children who would inherit the home create an unnecessary burden for them because they would have to preserve its historic preservation thank you is there anyone else alan beach 1366 north lodges drive i am a member of the historic preservation advisory committee a couple of things we've heard here and i want to reiterate this is 100 voluntary nobody can force anybody into the program under any circumstances the only authority that the city manager has is to start the process they can't do anything else when we talk about historic districts it is 100 of the people have to agree on it there's no scenario where you can be forced into a historic district 100 of the people have to agree to it and you as a homeowner have to agree to it thank you all right just a second can can i follow up no no no well let's finish this and then i'll be out turn again good evening my name is karen mullen 678 oakwood drive dunedin i'm here i am a member of h-pack um i do want to say that we took a lot of consideration i live in a in an area of dunedin that i would like to see as a historic district however i know my neighbors wouldn't be on board with that and i consider that what i want this what i want this board to understand is that dunedin is special dunedin is here if we start chipping away at the historic districts or historic areas we lose the heart of dunedin so i'm asking this board to vote for this tonight thank you thank you good evening uh jim davis 1991 spanish pines drive i'm a board member for the dunedin boat club and came to hear about the new ordinance and see what we could do to learn more about it as everybody probably knows it was flooded badly during the last two hurricanes recently got torn down we're in the process of working on a letter of intent with the city to rebuild and and we've got a great fundraising plan that we're going to activate and we're going to put something good up and uh i was just kind of seeing if i could get your perspectives since you seem to be the knowledge train over here on how uh the historical uh significance for the property is going to work as we were so close we were at 97 years for the history of the building and uh you know one thing led to another and i know this ordinance was something that was going to help us and i would appreciate your perspective on how that might happen to work thank you thank you is there anyone else from uh the public then public input is closed and let's hear from the staff and your response to what you've heard and and then it'll be our turn again yeah i guess in response to mr davis's uh question uh to the dunedin boat club um so with the adoption of this proposed ordinance um it would allow the ability for the dunedin boat club to apply for a historic landmark site since it would be the significance of the land of where that boathouse was once stood and as long as that in itself meets the criteria in meeting the um you know the historic significance of it um that would be a qualifier that you could uh that the the boat club could um consider in in the application and then i i do want to reiterate we were very careful when we drafted the ordinance to make sure that 100 owner is required right i mean i think it's pretty clear and then the reason we have the city manager is in case something extraordinary happens but that's only the city manager can apply right so the city commission is the one that approves landmarks and historic districts not the city manager so in case there's some dis some confusion there um the city commission is the ultimate decider for landmarks and historic districts and then there was also a question with regard to the intervener status so i'll go ahead and take that question um so i will say that the way the ordinance that's in place today uh does allow for and to uh does allow for um h-pack and some of the and some others i would say to come forward and try to um have a property become a landmark a designated landmark but that has been changed in this ordinance so that it is only the property owner that comes forward to have that so to the gentleman's question of whether or not there could be a third party that could come in there this is in the making the designations it is a quasi-judicial process so to the extent that a third party met the definition of intervener status they certainly could come in and present comments as to why it should or should not be a designated property or um why a certain improvement should or should not be made under the certificate of appropriateness but they cannot initiate an application for either the landmark designation or historic district thank you so i have a question i'm a little confused so you say it's a hundred percent of the homeowner correct then why are you why are you even having the city manager in there that's what that's what i'm just a little confused if you because i hear one side of it over here and then i hear your guys side is it if the homeowner died that the city manager has the rights and there's no other family members i i'm just a little confused on this so we don't we don't know what situation this could be but i mean essentially you know i think someone may have given the example of there was um a group of maybe an architect from dunedin but i'm coming up with some crazy scenario so i can give you an example of why we think this might ever happen maybe um an architect from dunedin design these three houses on this block a developer comes in and says hey i want to tear these down and the entire community comes out in opposition of this demolition and the city manager decides and says this could ruin the character of this entire block she could put together the application and apply that is some type of extraordinary circumstance but doesn't the city commissioner do that i mean can't don't they have the right to do that because it comes no no they do not have the right to apply for a historic district they only approve them or deny or deny thank you so the only people that can apply for a historic district is the homeowners that are in support or the city manager under some extraordinary circumstance so it's been what 20 years how long 10 years since you that why are you changing this when's the last time that year 2015 historic just previously historic districts weren't in the ordinance yep they were never in the ordinance okay yeah that that tool in the toolbox you're putting the city manager in there because if what happens in the future some kind of if what if what you know you you can never you never want to have that situation where it's like oh we didn't even think about their committee do other a lot of other municipalities do not do 100 owner owner required how many of them have a city manager in them um you know i don't i don't know if we did that research on that um there's usually um the historic preservation committee can apply for a historic district um but you don't but you don't know of anybody else who has a city manager that can make that choice and i love jennifer i'm just concerned later on you know that what happens yep yeah that that would be my biggest concern so um again it would only be as to the application not as to the determination because the determination is done by the commission um we would have to i i don't know off the top of my head as far as other um district other historic districts whether or not they allow the application to be started by a city manager specifically um but i do think you're right that they allow them to be started by the historic preservation committee or staff and at this time dunedin was going with the city manager as opposed to staff initiated or historic preservation committee and then again still making it go to the commission for any kind of approval and that process kind of to the other gentleman's point is it's a quasi-judicial process so whether it's a homeowner that's standing there or whether it was the an extraordinary circumstance where the city manager was standing there trying to move forward an application there are criteria that must be met and it would be on that applicant to demonstrate all of those criteria are met in front of the to the commission's satisfaction before they would be able to approve that historic district you had a question yes thank you i um as a follow-up to historical historically significant and i heard is it 50 years is what is being considered historically significant nope um so in in the ordinance it has criteria of what would what they would qualify as a landmark usually the base just to look at it is over 50 years and then it has to be either locally significant culturally significant it has criteria for um historic uh districts and local landmarks so more than just the 50 years correct yeah the um in uh 50 years ago is 1975 in uh in that's not that long ago no i would uh i would uh i would consider you i would encourage you to consider uh setting a hard date as opposed to you know next year it'll be 1976 the year after that it'll be 1977 but if if there's a period of time that is considered historically uh important to dun eden residents that have been here for generations or whatever maybe we can pick a particular year that and it doesn't it doesn't then advance every year after that um to address your comment so the national park service the secretary of interior standards sets that over 50 that's the national standard that's what preservation professionals all use um when you're looking at a historic district particularly you have a period of significance so for example if um victoria place was designated um the period of significance would probably be late 1800s right so that would it wouldn't be over 50 it would be like late 1800s so um typically each it's it's a puzzle piece and it's important for that reason that you know so culturally so um i hope that kind of answers your concern yeah i've got a i i need this a little bit in layman's terms and i live in victoria place by the way oh yeah it's beautiful i love it but i live on victoria drive as well so i i'm really i'm concerned that individual landowners are not going to be imposed upon in any way without their ability so i just want to make sure i'm clear on if the city manager initiatives let's say victoria drive we got you know eight lots that used to be the malone brothers homes you know all that stuff could could the city manager initiate i want that victoria drive to be a historic site and then all of a sudden other homes that may not be part of them alone brothers historic homes which many of those are gone now could they all of a sudden find themselves in a historic designation which limits their flexibility on what they can do with their property and secondly in that process of the city manager initiates is is public notice given to every every property owner that might be impacted by this yes yep yeah so we made sure that the notice was very clear that all homeowners have to be notified their signs it's a huge requirement but just to reiterate let's say someone was going to tear down all the homes on victoria place right and the city manager said whoa stop this is a big deal it's culturally significant to our entire city that's kind of actually a great example thank you um so she or he whoever at that time would have to compile the application for the historic district and then they would have to apply and that then it would go to staff to look at the application make a recommendation to the historic preservation committee the historic preservation committee would review that application that the city manager submitted to see if it meets the criteria and then they would make a recommendation to city commission either approve or deny and then city commission would have to approve or deny but it has to be 100 percent opt-in if one property says i don't want to be part of this they're safe not if the city manager applies okay that's the exact concern that is where people will be imposed upon if the city manager initiates this if they initiate the application but not the approval she does not approve it so correct correct i got that i got that yeah and so so in part how it would play out is that if the city manager um did use this extraordinary um provision and then went and and applied she would have to go through the same steps that anyone else would so there would need to be um not only the physical description the statement of cultural adherence but she'd have to have a report that was prepared by a professional that identifies all the building all the same steps for the application she'd need to go through in submitting that would go through the process that was identified and all the same notice requirements would be provided so it would still be noticed to all the property owners of when the h-pack hearing was as well as when the commission hearing was um i think there's a sign posted um so just so you know so that there there is still all of that so it's not there's nothing done in in secret and um to the other question that was asked i haven't had time to look at many but i just pulled one real quick for instance jacksonville with regard to their historic districts it says filing an application for designation with the commission may be made by a property owner within the proposed district his agent the jacksonville historic preservation committee the mayor the jacksonville city council or any member of the jacksonville city council so when you look at the number of like for their districts who they let apply is is quite extensive so let me keep going with the victoria drive so let's say i own the commodore's house on victoria and monroe that old home and i have plans you know it's got damage it's it's old you know not very functional and i want to tear it down and i want to build something new or modern but the city manager comes in says nope victoria i want to propose that victoria drive becomes historic all of a sudden my ability to redo that property is pulled away would that be would that be correct if it's if the commission approved it you would have to apply so let's say if the commission approved the historic district and you come out and say i want to demolish my home in a historic district you have to apply for a certificate of appropriateness the coa process and that demolition would be have to be heard by staff would review that application the historic preservation committee and then ultimately city commission would approve would have to review the application for demolition so a process i didn't have to do before now i have to do and may may not be able to get the right to demolish my home and build a new structure that's more resilient than whatever so i will say you know some one point that we aren't really kind of hitting on is the the point that the city manager in extraordinary circumstances right and and i don't you know maybe we can kind of explain that a little bit because i think that makes a lot of sense because it's it's not just willy-nilly right the city manager is like oh i i love these houses i'm gonna apply it is an extraordinary circumstance and staff reviews that and then the hpc would decide whether that's an extraordinary circumstance right yeah and the language actually is that they would have that it would result in irreparable harm to the character of the city irreparable harm is something that's commonly used in the courts when you're going to enjoin somebody from doing something so that like that was a term that was legally definable in that case law and so either they'll meet that criteria and consider that application or won't question not so much a question as a statement it still seems to me that it puts an undue burden on the one person say out of 10 houses that doesn't want to be in this historic district because now then they have to go and defend themselves on why they don't want to be in that district so if it's a property owner initiated like let's say there were 10 homes just what you described and there was one person that was like no it couldn't they couldn't designate that as a historic district they would either have to draw the district such that that one home was not included or they would um or it would fail but for argument's sake those other nine people then go to the city manager and say well this one guy holding out is going to cause us harm for the value and desire of our homes she then has the right to make your home be in the application by the sounds of what they're describing that just doesn't seem right to me i lose my control of my home so you're saying could nine homeowners go to the city manager and request that she do this it would still be a determination as to whether or not there's some sort of irreparable harm but if you have nine homeowners that are willing to create a district i i'd be surprised i mean i i can't tell you no but i'd be surprised that anybody would take that and say it's irreparable harm nowadays to do that one but nowadays anything can happen in court systems i mean the people do some crazy things and that and that would that would concern me that i would then have to come up with the funds to fight this well understood understood i mean it's you know this is just what's being proposed so i mean you guys are considering it to kind of follow up on that so let me get that straight in that same scenario um i'm not sure what the irreparable harm would be is just if somebody didn't want to participate in that right so you could form two historic districts say you were the house in the middle right one on each side and that house would not be part of that either one of those historic districts or if if they did go to the city manager i don't know how the city manager would defend that it's irreparable harm if this house is not included so yeah i wouldn't see that happening um can i ask you to go back on your slides and and i want to talk about the city manager some more and the the time frame if that's initiated by the city manager because one of the things i did here too is you know if if you need to go forward with something and the city manager files uh on on behalf of the city i guess um so it's it's looking like less not less than 60 days so i i guess i was wondering if there would be a way for if it was um directed by the city manager that there could be some sort of expedited approval process within that because if if that is you know done like say going back to the kellogg mansion because of the demolition permit if you were moving forward with that and and holding it up like one of the commenters said for for three years kind of thing you it's almost like you're you're trying to wait somebody out and and and there's nothing that they can do would there be a way to expedite that specific process and and get a a determination much quicker than it would if you let the the current process if a homeowner does it uh run its course i don't know that we we just wanted the application to have the standard process right um but we hadn't anticipated that question we yeah i mean as the current as the ordinance stands now no that isn't identified in there could it be considered in there that's something that could be considered yeah okay well it comes time for recommendations i may add that and then i also want to follow up on the 50 years so kevin uh what was the the build date of your place uh 2016 2016 occupancy so in in 2066 he can apply for um he can apply for a landmark place to be uh historic yeah i could apply for it right now because it's where the me sanatorium used to be well i could do it right now it's where me sanatorium used to be so and the blue moon a site yes no i definitely a landmark site yeah so i i guess too i i do like the idea of you know setting a date and time if we want to keep our uh historicness throughout the city and i'm not sure if any historically significant buildings have been built since 1975 or since maybe anything after 1970 but if i may as a professional preservationist um a lot of people think that 50 years is not a long time um i agree you know 50 years doesn't seem like a lot but if you put that age right that time if you have someone that has designed something in the last 20 years that was just amazing and culturally significant you don't know what could happen in 20 years that will be significant right um so i i go back to really interesting mid-century modern designed homes a lot of people were mad when that became historic but they are very important to the culture of our human society they provided different types of way of living they provided the indoor with the outdoor um so i think adding and i'm not recommending anything y'all want to do because but standard 50 years or older if you if you keep it that way you still have to meet criteria and you still have to prove that it's significant i got you that's that's that's all i'll say yeah not trying to push you in any way i just i think about these really amazing mid-century structures that if we at the time you would say that was ugly but now they are lauded i mean look at sarasota architecture the school of architecture is like really important right now and and i understand that mid-century modern at the same time i i don't want to see us preserving the cookie cutter houses that that came in the late 70s early 80s and and beyond okay final question because we need all right i want to uh there were concerns that came up about storm damage on historic properties and that and that's a terrible situation if they are in limbo unable to repair their homes how is that going to be addressed and is there something some expedited process where as long as it's returned to an as was condition or something it's expedited how is how is that handled in a storm situation so i i love this question actually and i meant to actually address it because florida state statutes protects that situation in an emergency when you're in a state of emergency please jennifer correct me if i'm wrong but my understanding of this is you don't even have to apply for permits if you are repairing your home to habitable right so is that is that not right it's there's this okay i don't think that's accurate okay all right please that's why i said jennifer correct me but i i think that there is provision within um the current city's code with regard to historic buildings and the fact that there's variances for the author um it can be authorized for the repair improvement rehabilitation of historic buildings um because of flood resistant construction and things like that so i do i mean i do just say that there are some um there is some relief within the city's code with regard to historic buildings and preserving them and um being able to do repairs and improvements that are necessary not real clear on what exactly that means but i think i would need it in an faq because i'm trying to think of for the residents out here in the city who aren't at this meeting and how can they get an answer pretty concisely and easily and understandable right we we have properties in pinellas county that were hit hard with milton and they aren't able to rebuild and they were historically significant so give some thought to that too what happens at that point you can't put that on a property owner to to then try to bring to rebuild that back to where it is and they aren't allowed to do it and it would be astronomical there is a provision in the code that's already in place where if a historic structure exceeds the 50 percent substantial damage that they would be able to go in front of the bbaa which is ultimately the lpa to file a variance to exceed that amount okay i'm going to ask for a motion please i would make a motion that i think we need more clarification on specific situations and how that might affect people in an faq format before i could feel comfortable recommending this to the city commission do we have a second to that i second it i'll second it all in favor any more discussion sorry um look for uh an expedited city manager process for that as well so in case somebody is waiting for permits and things like that that can happen in a much shorter period of time and you'll you'll know what the outcome of that property is and not having to wait that standard amount of time so i'd like to add that to the motion right you accept that i accept that other thoughts about the motion would you receive it for us okay so i would make a motion that further clarification through an faq on specific situations relative to the city manager's initiation process storm damage processes be drafted and included before we would approve recommending this to the city commission in addition to an expedited uh city manager uh process very good did you get that i got that and is the second going to be sally carron all in favor aye aye aye any opposed no the ayes have it thank you very much for a very thorough job all right we now will recommend a new alternative a new alternate member to the local planning agency does anyone have any recommendations chair i i'm happy to give you some background please of the applicants i can tell you there are two that i do not have confirmation of attending an lpa meeting okay those two would be jude zentmeyer uh-huh and sylvia tazikas other than that everyone else i can confirm has attended or is currently attending this evening we currently have that i'm aware of three applicants present and who are they that would be mr shine mr young and larry gerson super would each of you like to come up and speak to us please no okay good evening uh i just as a person in observing this hearing today was amazing because the questions and the dialogue between you all and with the staff was incredible i haven't seen this in a long time and i think it's fabulous that we had our people that spoke before you that had some concerns and you listened so to me that makes me want to be part of this committee because that's what what i i'm i'm like that i like to hear i like to question and be thoughtful of the person who's coming up before you um i've lived in this city for 26 years lived in the same home for 26 years i've been part worked for the state of florida for 30 years i was in law enforcement and then i was a veterans advocate which brings me to being on a committee when i retired a former commissioner john torgett asked me to be on the committee of the veterans committee and i've been on that committee since 2017 since the inception i'm vice chair of it i also joined the public safety commission because of my law enforcement background and then i was asked to be on the stormwater committee so i had to leave that one and i've been on the stormwater committee since 2016 and i left as the chair of the committee um a lot of what i've seen in the city is has a lot to do with the stormwater and what you all are addressing um i didn't know much about stormwater but i do know about regulations i knew about rules ordinances and how the city works we had in the committees both committees i've dealt with or three committees i've dealt with were budgets and how to read them and how to ask questions about them um and i think that's a lot of what you all have to consider before this committee so i have a lot of extensive knowledge just being a veterans advocate you have to know the laws and regulations and where to look and so forth um i reviewed everything that you talked about today and you covered everything it was amazing so i hope that you consider me i would be impartial first of all i have no conflict of interest other than owning my own house i don't own any other commercial property i have no other intentions of doing anything uh politically with this i am impartial and um i think that's what you need on the committee and i have no agenda i just want to be a fair-minded person for this committee so i hope you consider me thank you thank you thank you any questions oh okay sorry i thought you guys saw my application it's larry gerson and i live at 1310 over cash drive thanks karen i served with her on a call of any questions that you have about me anything about my background okay thank you i figured that you guys are so impressive that you know how to dig things out but anyway um anything else no thank you you thank you very much uh-huh very impressed thank you uh-huh john you said you do not want to oh please do then most of you know me because i've been in front of you uh when character overlay came about uh my neighborhood had a lot of a lot of concerns and we formed the gunning downtown neighborhood association not the m but the n and we went and and really walked we're concerned about many of the issues that that the character overlay came about that was one issue then there's the fenway hotel that was another issue i was in front of you then there was downtown noise ordinance and i think there was yet another one i was in front of you i'm not sure what um so i have an opinion and i and i think all of you should have one as well and and i represent people and i think all of you should represent people as well um i am i have done development i am i own commercial real estate i own residential real estate but yet i represent the downtown dunney neighborhood association because i live here and i care about dunney these aren't simple issues right they're not they're complicated and you really have to piece them apart and you really have to take a real look at what every little aspect of it is and and i was so delighted that you guys rather than rubber stamp it and move it on that you said i don't like some of these things let's take a look at an faq i i'd love to see something a little bit more than an faq right because what is an extraordinary circumstance that that seems fairly i don't know what's the word arbitrary and capricious could it be anything so i do have a decent amount of experience with you guys on this side but i do have an experience as a commercial real estate broker as a residential real estate broker i i've helped people convert condos i've built houses i've i've done all those evil developer stuff that everybody complains about and i've done all the neighborhood association advocacy stuff so i think i'm good good candidate i my background is technology believe it or not i'm a technologist um i do have an mba in information systems and masters and uh project management whatever that means i long since forgot all that but i do have um some of those things if it matters um i have raised three kids here i'm still raising one got a got an extra one along the way and i think that's all you need to hear there you go thank you just try to check all my boxes well you did a good job making sure i do my thing thank you all right i think there was a third person hello everyone my name is tim young 962 grovewood drive i've been around dunedin and countryside for about 50 years now um i have looked and michelle knows i've looked at several committees and been on several committees over the years um i was a city commissioner up in atlanta in a town called john's creek that we actually created a city which uh was an experience my verbal resume and the experience that i think i can bring that to this committee is i built a company starting in 1989 for about 25 years if you see a home depot between miami and oklahoma we dealt with all the lpas and the municipalities between like i said miami to oklahoma and i have extensive experience in standing up and talking to a lot of people about plopping a home depot down in their neighborhoods so i've had plenty of rocks thrown at me over the years in that part of working with home depot and building those stores we also had a home depot war team which i can bring to the party which was my about four or five hundred of my employees every time a storm hit we were the somewhat of a red cross team with home depot to go to those towns and go to those cities and rebuild the stores that were possibly either damaged or get them ready to help all of the citizens i was a campaign manager for steve samburgan in the last election so when the storms hit we were out like everybody else pulling signs doing all that stuff and worrying about our community and getting that straight working with anybody that would listen especially our city manager jennifer branley it was right in the middle of the elections so that was a little bit of confusion but i've waited and i see everybody on this many many of you know me from several things around town but i see the committee and how hard they work or the agency i guess you would put it that way and i would love to be on this i dropped everything i was doing back in fall to make room to be part of this agency and i hope you consider me with the experience that i have in savannah and the experience that i have in several other places around the country that are that are uh very difficult to deal with and i know don eden is not that which is another reason that i would even consider coming on to the to this committee but i thank you for listening i hope you consider me and i think i can bring a ton of experience to the committee and and really make a difference with you guys thank you thank you is there anyone from the public who would like to comment on our candidates so far hearing none i will ask for a motion unless there are other questions you need to i i will make a motion for mr tim young a second all in favor aye aye aye any opposed the ayes have it welcome all right i think we have done it very good thank you all and see you next month if we have a meeting then july 9th is on the on the july 9th all right we do