COMMISSION WORKSHOP - Jan 06, 2026

Good morning and welcome to the January 6th, 2026 Commission Workshop, first one of the new year. I'd like to call this meeting to order, and before we do the pledge, I'd like to turn it over to our esteemed mayor, Mayor Franey. Hi there, I'm sorry I can't be there in person, I'm unable to be there in person, so I'm virtual. And so I did ask Vice Mayor to run the meeting, and I thought it would be pretty awkward to run it virtually. So I appreciate Vice Mayor taking that on, I know we'll do a great job, and I'll be here, and that's it, and welcome to the new year. Thank you, Mayor. Jen, can you please lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance? All right, our first agenda item. This is always one of my favorite, and I want to bring the Witches of Dunedin forward. Hey everybody, good morning. This is a very special presentation. The presentation is going to be to the Rotary Club of Dunedin towards the Wendy Barmore Scholarship, and I can't think of three better causes in the great city of Dunedin. So, Allison, do you want to say a few words? Sure, if Linda could come forward. Linda? Or who's ever here to represent the Rotary? I'm sorry, Dave? Dave Barmore. Allison, nice to meet you. Dave Barmore, sure. Come on up, Dave. Help me hold this chair. Dave squared. Too many days are out there. So, we are, as you know, the Witches of Dunedin. We've been doing this now for seven years, and every charity is important to us because it's Dunedin. This one touched a place in all of our hearts a little more. I might cry a little bit. Wendy was a very, very special person to us, a lot of us, and may she rest, but her memory will always live on, and we took pride in bringing that back to life as well in raising money for her charity, which is the Wendy Barmore Music Scholarship through the Dunedin Rotary Club. And I'm proud to say that this year we raised the most we've ever raised since we've been doing this for seven years, and it was $12,056. And I must say that it was, I mean, we do what we do. We dance, and we collect this money. But when people knew it was Wendy Barmore, I think they dug a little deeper. So, it comes with that as well because she was very special. So, we present this to the Dunedin Rotary Club in memory of Wendy Barmore Music Scholarship. Thank you so much. But one thing I would say is that our goal from the start was to get this to be self-sustaining. And with this additional money, this very generous contribution, the scholarship is now going to be able to be self-sustaining in the future. So, we'll be able to do this. Thank you. Thank you for remembering that. So, thank you, Dave. Thank you. Thank you for the city for having us again. Who's on our check? Want to take a picture? Sure. Everyone has to get us here. Everyone has here. Give us a big shot. Can I just get up? Can I just squeeze in? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Here, come. Yeah. You may need a couple. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I sure am. I want to see everybody. I'm sure I can. Is everybody here? Yeah. I'm sure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Now you should take one with the hair. Oh, she is. Yeah. I'll hug you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye, sir. Bye. See you soon. We'll see you soon. Thanks, guys. Carry on. Thank you. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Yeah, I will say, you know, this is just so, this is Dunedin at its core, three amazing organizations doing good for the community. All right. Now on to the rest of the agenda. Does anybody in the audience wish to speak on a topic that is not on the agenda? Seeing none, hearing none. We'll move on to the workshop items. So, George, a presentation on the Live Local Act. Good morning. Mayor, Vice Mayor, Commissioners, George Kinney on behalf of the Community Development Department. So, I have a very exciting presentation for you this morning. I think it'll be very, as soon as I can find the bio here, it'll be very entertaining and interesting for you, and I'm sure you'll have plenty of questions. And here we go. So, very quickly, thank you again. It is my pleasure to introduce to my right, Nicole McInnes, who is an attorney for the Barbas Kremer Law Firm in Tampa, Florida. I was very fortunate to catch Nicole's presentation at the APA State Conference in Daytona Beach and asked if she'd come and talk to you about all things Live Local, because I know you've heard about it. I know you kind of have a feel for it. But Nicole has actually had boots on the ground with both developers and municipalities and can give you a really good background on that program. Nicole began her career in a real estate asset management department for a Fortune 500 company and soon after started her law practice. She specializes in land use law, and a large part of her practice is dedicated to counseling developers, investors, and property owners on land use entitlements and property rights protection, including those interested in developing affordable and workforce housing projects, particularly in relation to Florida's Live Local Act and its mission to provide housing to essential workers. Nicole has made numerous public presentations to Florida municipalities. She's been recognized by the Chambers USA as the only associate to watch in her field for North and Central Florida. She holds a BA from the University of Florida, Business Administration, cum laude, BS from the University of Florida in Psychology, cum laude, and a Juris Doctor from the Stetson University College of Law, magna cum laude. So it's my pleasure to introduce Nicole, and she's going to run you through a brief PowerPoint presentation, and we're happy to answer any questions when she's done. Well, thank you, George. I really appreciate that really kind intro. Good morning. My name is Nicole McInnes. I'm very excited to be here this morning, present this presentation to you on the Live Local Act. When I was at my previous firm, Live Local came out, and it really has transformed my career. It was a very long bill, and I decided that I was going to make this my thing, my pet project. And I had no idea at the time how much Live Local was going to consume many developers and local governments as it was implemented. I've been very fortunate to work on both the land use and the ad valorem tax side of the Live Local Act, and I've worked on several projects, one of which just broke ground in the city of Tampa last week, and I'm excited to show you guys a little bit about that one. So looking at the Live Local Act, it first came out in 2023. It was, its goal was to quickly increase Florida's affordable housing stock. So it started with Senate Bill 102 in 2023. It was amended in 2024 and 2025. There's also a bill that was just filed for this legislative session that would be a slight amendment, and I can talk about those changes in a little bit. The land use side of Live Local does sunset on October 1st, 2033. So it is not meant to be a long-term solution. It is meant to be a short, 10-year horizon to help quickly incentivize affordable housing stock to deal with Florida's growing affordable housing crisis. So there's three main buckets to Live Local. There is a land use and zoning preemption, ad valorem incentives, and then funding dollars that were available through Florida Housing Finance Corporation. Jumping into the land use and zoning preemption, so the affordability requirement for these projects requires the units to be restricted to 120% of area median income for 30 years. 40% of the units within the project have to meet those affordability requirements. In addition, the property has to be zoned for commercial, industrial, or mixed use, and this includes a site-planned control district like a planned development or planned unit development. Most recently in the 2025 session, the legislature did define what is a commercial, industrial, or mixed use zoning district, which provided a lot of clarity for both developers and local governments on what zoning districts should and should not be included as eligible for the program. If the project can meet those requirements, there are certain allowances that the statute provides. The first one being that the projects can be developed to the highest density that's allowed by right in the jurisdiction. It does not include projects that received a bonus unless the live local project can also be eligible for that bonus and meets all of the local government's requirements for the bonus. It does not include projects that may have been specially approved through some type of special exception or conditional use that have a higher density than what is typically allowed in your comprehensive plan or code. Typically, we look at what is the highest density that's allowed in your most intense multifamily land use district in your comprehensive plan or your land development code. Sometimes that may be a mixed use district depending on how your code and comp plan have been structured. In addition, there is an intensity bump, so it allows 150% of the highest floor area ratio that's allowed in the jurisdiction. Again, this cannot be an FAR that was approved via a bonus or special exception or some other type of special approval. And then the appropriate development standards to use are the land development regulations for multifamily development. If there are multiple zoning districts that apply to multifamily, we typically look to the most intense or the most appropriate zoning district based on the proposed density of the project. In addition, for height, the project is allowed to be developed up to the highest commercial or residential structure within one mile or three stories, whichever is higher. In the 2024 legislative session, they did amend this to restrict the height of buildings that are adjacent on two sides to single family so that the projects were more compatible with the adjacent surroundings. If there are single family homes on two sides with at least 25 homes, so perhaps there is a subdivision next to one of these projects, then the building is limited to 150% of the tallest adjacent building. In addition, if the project is a contributing structure or is listed on a historic district, there are specific requirements for those types of projects, and there are height limitations for those as well. There is a mixed-use requirement in certain local governments. For example, if the project is located in a TOD, transit-oriented development area, some local governments do have those, and it does have to be mixed-use. In addition, if the local government, specifically a municipality, is designated for less than 20% of its jurisdiction for commercial or industrial, then the projects have to be mixed-use. This is to make sure that Live Local does not wipe out all of the local government's commercial and industrial job-generating uses, so they do require a mixed-use component in the projects. And then lastly, if it's within a county, the county has to be in an independent special taxing district, and then those local governments have to be, those local projects have to be mixed-use as well. I actually haven't seen a county that meets all the requirements of that section, but it is in there. And so for a mixed-use project, the local government cannot require more than 10% of the project to be a non-residential use. That was a change in the last legislative session. In addition, at least 65% of the project needs to be residential. There's also some parking waivers that are provided. So a project must receive a 15% parking reduction if the project is within a quarter mile of a transit stop, within a half mile of a major transportation hub, or within 600 feet of available public parking. In addition, if the project is in one of the TOD areas, there is no parking required. Live local is not allowed in certain areas of the state, specifically the Waqiva study area, which is over near Orange County. The Everglades, if they are within a flight path or an airport noise zone, there are restrictions there. And then if they are within a quarter mile of a military installation or a property that's zoned industrial and designated as a commercial or recreational working waterfront. So if a project can meet these requirements and design a project that would meet your code and comprehensive plan with these live local allowances, there are no public hearings like a typical rezoning or comprehensive plan amendment. It is an administrative approval that typically runs with the local government's attorney's office and also with the planning director and planning staff. There is no requirement to do a rezoning or a variance or a comprehensive plan amendment in order to utilize these live local allowances. The way that most developers and local governments are implementing that 30-year commitment that I mentioned at the beginning is through a land use restriction agreement, also called a LORA, or a declaration. This is the method for securing that 30-year commitment because it will be recorded on title for the property and will transfer with the land. I prefer using declarations where the local government works through what form declaration they're comfortable with, and then that's something that the developer signs as a condition of their being able to get building permits or perhaps their final site plan approval. We work with the local government's office to have that signed, recorded, and then the property often starts construction right after that. There are certain allowances for, for example, if there's a moratorium in the local government, so moratoriums do not apply to live local if they are longer than 90 days in any three-year period. There is an exception for this for moratoriums that are dealing with stormwater or floodwater management, potable water, or something necessary to repair a sanitary sewer system. In addition, if the local government is involved in any litigation, those cases do have to be prioritized, and there is also attorney's fees that may be awarded to the prevailing party. There is an annual reporting requirement that was implemented last year that requires local governments to provide an annual report to the state on any live local litigation they've been involved in, as well as any approved projects in the previous fiscal year. That report will go to the governor, president of the senate, and the speaker of the house. So I do have a few best practices for local governments. One thing that's very helpful for the development community is to have the local government post their procedures and guidelines for how they implement live local on their website. To be honest, that provides the rules of the game for the developer. It also puts everyone on notice of what the city is going to require. Several local governments are doing this, and it's been very helpful because then the developer, before we even have to contact you, can go see if they can even make a project work from both the financial and compliance with your code perspective. The city of Tampa, for example, has a great procedures document on their website. Hillsborough County has one as well. And the city of St. Pete did adopt live local into their code with their procedures and guidelines. In addition, it's very helpful that there is a standardized process. With live local being a state law that has to be implemented by local governments, everyone is going to have a little bit of a different process. But deciding what that process is, who the main contact person is for these projects, that can answer questions, process applications, it just helps with the administrative headache for us and for local governments to figure out how these projects can continue through the process. And then also, as I mentioned, preparing that standard LORA or declaration to help with the 30-year commitment is very helpful, so that way any time a live local project comes in, we can immediately get a copy of what that document is going to look like so we can have it signed at the appropriate time. As I mentioned earlier, this is a project that I've been working on for about a year. It just broke ground actually last week in the city of Tampa. It's in the south of Gandy area. It's an industrial project. It's going to have 408 units on it, and then at least 192 of them will be affordable. This project was actually originally approved for live local back in 2023, changed hands a couple of times, and then now it just broke ground last week. Florida Housing Coalition does have a great tracker on their website that tracks live local projects at every stage of the process. Some projects that are in litigation, some that are at the very beginning and just submitted for their initial application, some that are in some stage of the permitting process. It's a really interesting dashboard if you ever have some time and want to see where the majority of live local projects are being developed. I have worked on projects in all of these jurisdictions at various stages of the process, and they all have worked through developing procedures and how they intend to implement them. So these are some local governments, if you would like to reach out to any other ones that have at least seen a live local project come in the door. A couple other things that I thought would be interesting for this group. So in the 2025 legislative session, there was a bill as part of the live local amendment bill that created something called Yes in God's Backyard, or YGBI. It is in the live local statute, but a different subsection. It allows but does not require a local government to allow affordable housing on property owned by a religious institution that contains a house of worship if 10% of the units are affordable. So unlike live local, it's not mandatory. This is an option. It still would have to be presented to the local government to decide whether or not they would like to approve the project, but this has been a very interesting change to the law because a lot of churches and other places of worship are struggling to make ends meet and helping put an affordable housing project in perhaps an open field that's next to the project, a parking lot, something like that is helping jumpstart the House of Public Worship's finances and also providing affordable housing, which is often very critical to missions for various houses of public worship. So that's been a very interesting development. I do expect there to be a lot more traction on this in the coming years. And then real quickly towards the end, there is an ad valorem tax exemption process that I mentioned. This process is very different than the land use side. It does require a minimum of 71 units at 120% AMI and below, unlike the 40% of the overall project for the land use side. If you're in the Florida Keys, it's a minimum of 11. It does have to be new construction projects, which means they were built in the last five years before the first application. The unit rents actually have to be restricted to the lesser of 120 AMI or 90% of market, which is determined by a third-party appraiser. In a lot of local governments, 120 AMI is very close to market, so that 90% of rental market study document restricts the rent down to more what's appropriate in that specific locality. If the unit is at 80% AMI and below, it's 100% tax exemption. If it's at 120% of AMI, it's a 75% tax exemption. There is a three-year commitment for that project that those units will be restricted. It does run with the land, and it expires in December of 2059. There is an opt-out from this program. Unlike the land use side, there is no opt-out there, but there is an opt-out from this tax exemption. Then Pinellas County, which, as you guys know, the city is within, is eligible to opt-out. Every local government and taxing authority within that county would need to decide if they want to opt-in or out. So some local governments and taxing authorities decide to opt-out. Some do not, and they will just adjust the tax bill based on that. So there is an opportunity to do that here. That would obviously not be an incentive for affordable housing, but the city is within their right to do that. And that's all I have. I threw a lot of information at you. I'm happy to answer any questions or discuss any specifics of what I presented. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you very much for that. Questions for staff? I'm going to turn to Commissioner Gao. Thank you, Vice Mayor. And, Nicole, thank you for being here this morning. Appreciate it. Yeah, just a couple. There was a whole lot of information. Hard to digest. But some of the questions I have, that Inner Bay City project, would that occur without the Live Local Act? It would not occur without the Live Local Act. It was in an industrial, future land use, and zoning district, and multifamily was not allowed. Prior, developer and different council actually tried to do a comp plan amendment and rezoning to allow multifamily there back in 2022, and it was denied. And then Live Local changed the way that that property could be developed. Okay, and it was denied based on the current commission at that time, the approving authority. It was a slightly different makeup. There was an election change in between when that project was initially through that process and then when it went through the Live Local part of the process. The future land use and comp plan amendment was asking for a higher density, and the project actually under Live Local could have been developed at about 600 units. My client wanted to go in a little bit less than that. They didn't want to put that many units in the area, and so they put in 400. Okay. Yeah, and the only reason I talk about that is the adversarial process that could occur with this and whether or not it's a symbiotic relationship between a municipality and a developer in a non-Live Local situation versus a Live Local situation where the developer comes in and says, hey, I meet these requirements, so suck it up. This is what I'm doing. And I'm wondering if we're seeing that. I know this is early on in the process for Live Local, but whether or not we're seeing, what are the relationships between the developers and where those have occurred and those municipalities or the governing board if it's a county situation? What's that relationship look like? It really depends on the local government's appetite for affordable housing. There are some local governments that are very pro-affordable housing. Their constituents want more of that. For example, the city of St. Pete. There are other local governments that are not interested in having more affordable housing in their jurisdictions, and so they are more adversarial with projects like that. There are some projects that come in for a comp plan amendment and a rezoning to allow multifamily that otherwise would meet the requirements of Live Local, and they come in and they say, you know, we really want to build this project, and if you approve that comp plan amendment and the rezoning, you actually then don't, the property is no longer eligible for Live Local because it's not zoned for commercial, industrial, or mixed use. So where we're seeing it become an adversarial nature is where those projects may be denied at the comp plan and rezoning stage, and then a local government, you know, they deny it, and then a developer says, well, we're eligible for Live Local, and we really wanted to do this other project, but now we're kind of boxed into a corner. So I think helping with that relationship and understanding, you know, if this jurisdiction does want more affordable housing, figuring out how you can help incentivize it in areas that you would like to see it. So for example, the city of Sarasota, they actually adopted a competing Live Local ordinance in their own code that provided four times the maximum density and gave it an even bigger height allowance in areas that they specifically wanted affordable housing to go because they didn't want developers using Live Local all the time. So they said, we actually really want all this density to go here, and that's been very successful for them. So I do advise local governments that are interested in something like that, that you're well within your authority to do something like that in your own code. And when you talk about height, it was, they're allowed up to whatever the right is within our own code. Within one mile. Within one mile. And so like in some parts of our city, it's three stories by right and four stories with commission approval. And so in, in that framework, would they automatically be allowed the four or it would be by right, it would be three stories and we could still deny a fourth story. So it'd be by right, three stories. If that fourth story was through like a special exception or conditional or use or some type of process like that, that has to go before this commission. That would be a special entitlement for that project. But for the live local, you could only use the comparator of three because that's what's allowed by right with no discretionary approvals by the local government. And within the list of requirements on what the developers allowed to do, it's almost a matrix. It depends on the situation, almost each property where it's in the city, et cetera. Having said that, and not asking for a complete list, but you would mention if we had guidelines or the process on the website. And I look at this and I feel we have no control. And so if we list those guidelines, what are those, just a few of what the city might still have control over in negotiating with a developer in the live local? So in the guidelines, for example, it'd be helpful if the local input what the maximum density is, because what local government determines is the maximum density versus what a developer may think is the maximum density looking at your comp plan and code. Sometimes that's different. So listing what your maximum density is that's allowed, really critically listing the development standards. So when I talked about some local governments have multiple multifamily zoning districts or zoning districts where multifamilies allowed, which development standards are we applying for buffering and setbacks and all open space, those types of requirements. That would be really helpful. What the local government will require for FAR. So it's 150% of the highest. So really laying those items out, any parking reductions that the city may want to provide versus what's in live local itself, and then what the process looks like. So to come in with a live local application, do we provide a site plan? Do we provide a narrative? What does that site plan need to have on it? Those types of items, who it goes to, how long we can roughly expect that process to take. So that's something we typically see in those guidelines, for example. City of Tampa has a very thorough one that's on their website, very easily accessible. The city of St. Pete adopted it into their code. Hillsborough County does have a less robust, but they do have some regulations on their website. So there are some that are starting to adopt these sort of policy or procedures documents. Thank you. Commissioner, if I could just quickly add. So we have started that process. I've been working with our city attorney and the city manager's office, and we have basically regurgitated the design review process as the process a developer would have to take if they come in for an administrative approval. You know, we're still looking at FARs based on the current land use for the property, whatever that possibly might be. But then, you know, each site is going to be a little bit different. But we do have some regs already out there on the website. We're continuing to refine them, and we're kind of moving down that path that Nicole just explained. Okay. And I know that each parcel and each project is different, but these guidelines are set up by zone, I guess, or land use? So, yeah. So, I mean, it's, you know, we've had, I'm going to say we've had two soft inquiries so far. Dunedin Commons is a perfect example. So there's that four-acre remnant site that's sitting there. So one of the inquiries has been, could we do a live local project there? And yes, they could. The zoning's there for it. And they've basically exhausted their residential density by moving it to the built piece of Dunedin Commons. So there is no residential density left on that particular site, but a live local project could make that work. It would be a good place for that. Yeah. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Nicole. Thank you, George. That's all that I have, Vice Mayor. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Gowell. Commissioner DeGuard. Thank you, Vice Mayor. And thank you for the presentation, Nicole. It's very helpful. It seems to me this is developer-driven. Is that the case? Is that what I'm seeing here, where a developer decides to qualify under live local and then just gets started and meets the qualifications and it keeps going? Is that correct? It is developer-driven in that they would need to submit an application to the local government, find a site that's eligible, design a project that can meet your code and comp plan, and then go through that process. So it is developer-driven in that respect. There is a way for local governments to list on their website surplus property. That would be great for affordable housing that the local government may own. So that is one way that local governments can also be involved in the process by designating properties that they would like to see affordable housing on. So that's one way for local governments to get more involved. But overall, it is typically developer-driven. Okay. So they submit an application to us. Is that correct? They submit an application to the city. Who reviews that application? Typically, it's a planning director, planning staff, community development director that review them, and then typically the local government attorney's office. And if the planning director decides that it is or is not under the qualification of live local, how does it proceed if it's a determination that it's not qualified? Typically, the developer would then get a letter back from the city that says the property is not eligible and it would list the reasons for why it's not eligible for development under live local. How much success is this provided for the state? This is a nice example with the Tampa. How many of these kinds of projects are we seeing throughout the state? I haven't checked that Florida Housing Coalition tracker in the last month or so. There were tens of thousands of units that were in various stages of the process. Now, that tracker is looking at projects that were submitted, not necessarily projects that were approved. So that number might be a little bit higher than how many are actually going to break ground. In my experience working on live local projects, you know, it first came out and everyone was like, oh my gosh, there is going to be so much affordable housing development. This is going to take over the state. That has not been my experience. Most local governments I've worked with maybe have one or two. Some of the bigger counties might have more like 10 to 15. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they're all the way going to closing and actually breaking ground. I bring up that inner bay project because as many live local projects that I've worked on, that's the first one in two years that's actually broken ground. The rest of them have stalled out for market conditions, unrelated reasons, and they haven't actually closed. So though it has been successful as overall as a program because developers are trying to use it, I don't think there's been the jump in housing stock that was originally anticipated with the first live local act. Thank you. That's all I have. Thank you, Commissioner Dugard. Commissioner Sandberg. So as we are here today, are there some planned or are there some pending within our city right now? No, sir. Like I said, we have had two what I call soft inquiries. So Dunedin Commons, you know, they're kicking it around, I would say. You know, I would tell you we had another inquiry for a property north of Maine, east of Belcher that butts up against Alt-19 that's a little bit larger. And there was an inquiry there. They were working on a pro forma to see if that could work. And I think they came back and said it wouldn't fit the bill for them. So they needed more units. But that's the only two inquiries I've had so far. As you know, we're a built-out community, so I don't anticipate we're going to see a lot of this. But, you know, and tracks, you know, when it comes to track size, we don't have a lot of large tracks. Are there incentives for the city to allow a project to be constructed? Is there rewards, incentives? Well, not necessarily specific to live local. Now, we do have incentives. Bob can tell you about the incentive toolbox that we use for affordable housing. The flats is a great example. So we used we used the density bonus there. We had a waiver of certain impact fees for that affordable housing program. So there's there are some city incentives that are built into just generally affordable, you know, encouraging affordable housing. Okay. So if I understand, you said it was 40 percent of the units in the development. And then the other 60 percent are just based on market market rates, what they can get for for rents. All right. I had a question about multi-use. I guess I'm just trying to visualize what that would look like. So we could have a multi-story, you know, that right now the ultimate is retail with living above. So it was something like that be eligible for that would be a live local project. It could be a vertical or horizontal. So you could have mixed use horizontal mixed use vertical. You're just looking for the mix of the, you know, residential component mix. And I will tell you, we are less than three percent commercial in the city of Dunedin. So we it automatically almost basically requires a mixed use project. If this project comes to town, is it going to be any more load on you, George, and your staff? Is there anything else that would require our staff to work harder? No. Like I said, Commissioner, we kind of have it set up preliminary. You know, we would obviously be working with the city attorney's office very closely and with the city manager's office very closely on any of these projects. But we have it set up as basically an internal design review process. So basically that process that we use for those threshold, for those projects that need certain thresholds, we would just internalize. And so we would still use DRC. We would still use the ARC. We would still use the, well, we wouldn't use the LPA in the commission. But, you know, it would be administrative approvals after that. Okay. And lastly, I mean, you probably have the answer to this. I would assume there's probably some finance incentives for these developers. Is there money more readily available at lesser rates? What's in this for the developer? Yeah. So the ad valorem tax exemption that I mentioned is a big incentive. That works really well for projects that are towards the ends of, like, construction, because a lot of lenders are not giving credit for that, for financing for, like, the actual construction. But when they go to break ground, that is providing, or, sorry, when they go to open, that's providing a big incentive to them. There is money that's available through Florida Housing Finance Corporation that the developers can apply for. In the first year, there were specific buckets that the developer had to meet. So, for example, it needed to be an affordable housing project for veterans or people near who work or were a military member or were a veteran. There's funding that was available for youth that were aging out of foster care. So it needed to be an affordable housing project with that as a component. And then some that were available in specific, like, CSAs or MSAs within the state. So there is funding that's available. They had really specific guidelines like that in the first year of Live Local. They have lessened them now. So it's more readily available. And so the developers would bid to Florida Housing. And then Florida Housing would select which projects they'd like to help fund. Good. That was a nice presentation, Nicole. Thank you. That's all I have, Vice Mayor. Thank you, Commissioner Sandberg. So, yeah, at Minor, most of the questions I had have been asked, but I just want to confirm a couple of things. The Live Local application has to be approved by the municipality, local government. That's right. It just can't go to a public hearing. So it's typically a community development director, planning director, someone in that role. Okay. And the advantages are this really kind of streamlines the process, eliminates the public hearings, and streamlines the permitting process, those sorts of things. Is that the principal advantage to this? Exactly. It takes some of the risk out of these projects by not going to a public hearing where potentially have, you know, a lot of neighbors who are upset about the project. And there's often a stigma that's associated with affordable housing. And so those projects have a harder time going through the public hearing process. And so this helps to eliminate that risk. Okay. And then in terms of the regulatory or oversight, municipal regulatory or oversight, they have to follow the guidelines in our code in terms of design review and everything associated with that. With the exception of what Live Local preempts, which is the height, the four area ratio, and some of those other requirements. But like open space, setbacks, buffering, all of that is your code. Architectural design, all of that is your code design. Yeah. Well, that three-story requirement is a big one. You know, I just kind of wonder how that would work, but maybe that's a detail. But related to the regulatory piece of it, it appears also there's some decision points in this. Parking, the parking waiver for one. How does that decision get made exactly? So for some of the parking waivers, they are a mandatory waiver. If you're within a certain distance of a bus stop, then the waiver has to be granted. Otherwise, it can be done through if your code has a process for like the county or the city engineer to approve a parking reduction. Some codes do have that. That's one method. Another method is actually going to and asking for a variance. Live Local does not prevent asking for it. You can go to a public hearing on that if you'd like to, just knowing that, you know, you're going up and asking for that with any other risk that any other applicant would have. So there is an avenue for a local hearing. If, let's just say, for instance, as the city, we don't want to grant that waiver or we don't want to allow that forced story. How does that process work? So there isn't a way to, I wouldn't say any developers are going to go ask for a variance on height. I think parking is probably the one spot where I see developers still asking for a reduction in parking. And that is where the city would have some decision making on whether or not they want to allow the parking waiver. Like I said, there are some that the city is required to give, but there are others that if the developer wanted a 50% parking reduction, they would have to go through the appropriate channel to ask for that because Live Local doesn't specifically give that to them. Okay. Well, thank you very much. A great presentation. Mayor, final comments or questions? Yeah, I did have a couple. Thank you, Vice Mayor. So, a large tract of land. Does that mean that a developer can come in in a large tract of industrial land, meaning, i.e. 27 acres? My staff will know what that means. And can basically take that all over for affordable housing? Would that be required that the whole thing would become affordable housing? Would there be any play in there to be able to make it a combination of like industrial affordable housing? Or is that if somebody came in there and wanted it all to be affordable housing, they could do it? So, less than 20% of the city is designated for commercial or industrial. So, it would have to be a mixed-use Live Local project. So, they would not be able to be all affordable. The city can't require more than 10% of the square footage to be a non-residential use. But you could have a project on that piece of land that has an industrial component with affordable housing, a commercial component with affordable housing. And that would be required in the city. My other two questions were, so, in your opinion, with your obviously very expertise on this, has this bill done what you would think it needs to do? So, kind of two-fold. Has this bill achieved as much as you thought it might? And are there other things that you think communities and the government should be doing to enhance affordable housing? I think the bill is a great start in the right direction. I don't know that any piece of affordable housing legislation will be the perfect option for every local government. Every local government's developed differently, has different unique codes and comp plans. So, I don't know that there's going to be a one-size-fits-all approach with solving the affordable housing crisis. But I do think the Live Local Act was a good step in the right direction of trying to focus on affordable housing. It was great to see the state taking initiative on affordable housing, because that is something that so many Floridians are dealing with. But it's a tool in the toolbox. There are other tools. There are density bonuses that your local government has available that provide different opportunities. And so, I think it really depends on, is it the right property and the right location for a Live Local project to make sense? It's not always going to make sense for developers or for the local governments. I do think there's probably always going to be a bill every session or every other session to make small tweaks to it, because like I said, nothing is perfect and nothing is going to be a one-size-fits-all fix for this crisis. Other things that could be done to help incentivize affordable housing, housing. So, the city of Sarasota, they have that affordable housing density bonus ordinance that directs affordable housing where they'd like to see it go. I think making sure that you have affordable housing programs that developers can actually use would be great. Oftentimes, we see local governments that adopt affordable housing development standards or bonuses in their code, but they weren't developed in concert with the developer. And so, there's maybe reasons in the code that the developer can't make that work from a financial perspective or development perspective. So, I think having some collaboration on, hey, here's where we'd like to see it. Here's what we'd like to do. Development community, what do you think about this? Are there things you would need to see change so we actually could build affordable housing here? So, I think there's always some opportunity there for some collaboration to figure out what's best to help affordable housing in your jurisdiction, but also is within the policy choices that your jurisdiction decides to make. So, here's one last question, Nicole. This has been a great presentation. So, in your view, as somebody who really kind of sees this, and obviously, I see the local as, I don't know, maybe people have felt like local communities have kept too tight a rein on, you know, separating all the uses and not allowing different things. And again, have you seen any kind of egregious things where, wow, that's an unexpected not good thing? And I don't expect a consequence, but I don't expect a consequence of this where some negative things have happened. I haven't so far. I think the one thing most local governments are worried about is Live Local taking away their job generating uses and losing that commercial and industrial. In those smaller jurisdictions or the jurisdictions that are less commercial and industrial heavy, like the city, for example, that's where the mixed use requirement comes in and forces the Live Local projects to have that non-residential component. So, I do think that addresses some of that concern. We really haven't seen Live Local in every jurisdiction take off and every jurisdiction get thousands of units that I think when it first came out was the perspective of so many people on the government side and the industry side. But like I said, it really does take the right project and the right developer and the right location to make one of these work. It doesn't work everywhere all the time. Thank you. Great, great presentation. Thank you. Thank you, Mayor. Commissioner Gow has requested additional question. And I know that's not a surprise to anybody that I have follow-up questions. My apologies. I have two, if I may, Vice Mayor. One is I am a huge proponent of Home Rule. And time and time again, we have seen, at least in the last eight years, just incremental chipping away of that. And we have seen, whether it's the best intention or not, wide-sweeping laws that come into play that do not take individual communities at their own ability to govern themselves. And an example of that would be short-term rentals, Airbnbs. And while even if it was best intended, it has actually severely damaged a lot of communities that can't claw back what they used to be as a community. And so in that framework, and the irony of something that's labeled live local, something that's mandated by somebody who doesn't live local, right? At least that irony isn't missed on me. And so my question is, is with best intentions, are there any communities already that are looking at projects going that is not fit with our community? I don't have any specific projects that come to mind or local governments that come to mind. That is a common critique of live local is, you know, we have Home Rule, we have our zoning authority. I think where live local came from was with best intentions of we're not seeing enough affordable housing stock increase in the state. And now many Florians are being forced to move out of their communities because they can't afford to live there anymore. And so the state said, clue, there's not enough units that are being approved. We're now going to claw back some of that authority. Whether that was the right decision or the wrong decision at the time, that's what they decided was going to be their focus. And they wanted to try and do something that would help with more affordable housing units because of the growing affordable housing crisis. So I think you really have to weigh, you know, multiple concerns, multiple policy decisions, I understand that, you know, the state has been clawing back certain protections and rights of local governments. I think they just decided this was an initiative that they felt strongly about and they wanted to move forward with trying to do something because a lot of times we do see, you know, local governments that maybe their comp plan, you know, as you know, has to plan for growth, plan for density. A project might be allowed at 30 units an acre, but then when it goes into public hearing, they can't get more than 10 units an acre approved. So that missing 20 units an acre is now taking away units that the comp plan was planning for growth on that property and in that area and that growth to the extent they planned for isn't happening. And so when that happens time and time again, I think that's part of what led to the affordable housing crisis and then the state stepping in. It is a short-term solution. It is not meant to be a forever option. It does expire in 2033. So it was only in place for 10 years and it was really just a, we need to jumpstart units right now because we have this affordable housing crisis and we really don't know what else to do. Okay. Thank you. And my, I promised by saying my last question, right, the biggest incentive for the developers, you mentioned, was ed valorem taxes. And, right, it's very, the concept out there for everybody is the most common use is that is property taxes, what we're talking about. And so how does that incentive of ed valorem taxes play into the current conversations of getting rid of property taxes? So the, for the property tax exemption, it does provide a unit by unit exemption. So for example, if you had a project with 100 units and you had 50 of the units at 120 percent of area median income and 50 units at 80 percent of area median income, it would provide 100 percent reduction on those 80 AMI units and then a 75 percent reduction on those 120 AMI units. So it is providing a financial incentive to help drop the rents down from market rates to do something. In addition, for those 120 AMI units, it does also have to be the lesser of 90 percent of market, which is determined by a third-party appraiser who comes in, looks at the specific area where the property is located and says, here's what a 120 AMI unit is going for in the city of Dunedin in this specific part of the city. And the local comparator projects, and so that often drops the rent down from, from those numbers. And so it's really just an additional incentive. We, I don't see that come through on every project. Sometimes it doesn't make sense. Sometimes the jurisdictions have opted out. As far as it, with, you know, the property tax, the potential of removing property taxes, I think that's just, if property taxes were removed, then the exemption really wouldn't have a purpose anymore. But that's an, you know, an incentive that's available right now. Thank you. Thank you, Vice Mayor. Vice Mayor, can I ask a question? Yes. Thank you, Commissioner Gall. It's okay. No. Hi, Nicole. I'm Jorge Kintz, Deputy City Manager. I was looking around the, the local dashboard and trying to pay attention to your presentation at the same time. So the question that popped up, and it was really based on George's comment about, you know, highly, you know, dense communities. And so my question is, have any developers looked at, like, failing malls and shopping centers? You know, when you have a state DOT come through and do these limited access corridors, you see a lot of the businesses along those corridors start to fail because of the lack of easy access to their parcels. And then you see, you know, apartment complexes and things like that come up. But I'm curious if, like, in the highly densely populated areas where you've already got a developed site that might have a mall that's failing or struggling if they've looked at opportunities to create, you know, affordable housing there. Yeah. So the original intent of Live Local was to deal with failing shopping centers, failing malls, previously, you know, heavy industrial uses that are no longer consistent with what the industrial market looks like and the property needs to be redeveloped. It was really, that was the intent to try and deal with, you know, we're driving on corridors, we see strip centers that have multiple tenants that are not leased up in there. And so what could we do to make that a productive use of the property? And so that's where, you know, Live Local started with its zoning districts. I have had a couple of clients interested in malls. The issue with the mall redevelopments that I don't think the legislature fully appreciated is oftentimes in a mall there might be multiple owners. So Dillard's might own theirs, Macy's might own theirs, Sears might own theirs. And so trying to get all of those retailers to all agree to sell and then all agree on a purchase price and then all agree to sell it to that specific developer has been very challenging. So I've had developers interested in doing it. There are a lot of malls that are available for purchase, but it's just a more complicated title perspective that I think wasn't originally anticipated when the bill came out. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Uh, any of my colleagues have any additional questions before we close commission questions? Okay, uh, we will move on to public input on agenda item 2a. Hearing none, seeing none, I will bring it back to the commission for final comments. Commissioner Sandberg. No, I guess it's, uh, it's just, it's here to stay. And, uh, I hope it, you know, I hope for the best for our city when and if we, uh, you know, if it comes to our front door and, uh, I appreciate your, your time today. It's a good presentation. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Gow. Thank you, Vice Mayor. Uh, again, thank you, Nicole, for being here. Um, big proponent of affordable housing, uh, in the way to my opinion is to address the affordable housing project project problem is all sorts of housing, right? We have flats on main, but projects like flats on main alone won't solve the problem. Um, I'm a big proponent of ADUs. ADUs won't, won't solve it, but we need to look at duplexes and quadplexes and apartment complex. I'm a huge fan of mixed use development and especially on transit oriented development as well, those fixed route corridors. Um, and so this is just another tool. I'm just a little apprehensive when it comes from the state and it's just kind of across the board, um, uh, for everybody. But, uh, and while it's only 10 years, you can also do a lot of damage in 10 years. And again, it's damage that can't be clawed back. And we're talking about the identity of communities, which I don't know that the state fully appreciates on how hard individual communities work to make themselves different and unique from everybody else. And Dunedin works incredibly hard. And I think we do a great job. So, uh, while this is, uh, a tool in the toolbox, um, I, I, I do have some concerns, but I am a huge proponent of affordable housing. So any opportunity to address that, the better. So thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Gow. Commissioner Duttgart. Thanks Vice Mayor. Uh, I share my colleagues appreciation for your presentation. Thank you very much. Um, this is one of those where we can comment till we're blue in the face and nothing's going to change. Uh, so I'm going to keep my comments rather restricted. I would, uh, as I look at this thing, I see good intentions underneath it and that affordable housing is a huge issue, not only in our community, but across the state and across the country. Um, and any efforts to try to solve that problem are appreciated. Uh, the problem with this is I don't feel that the state saw the local municipalities as a friend. I think they saw them as an obstacle and therefore I share my colleagues views on why in the world did you call this live local? I mean, the irony of that is tremendous, but we are going to live with it. And with your help and others, we'll make it work as well as we can. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Duttgart. Uh, before I turn it over to the mayor, just my final comments. Um, so, you know, I, I agree. I think that this has, is being orchestrated very best intentions. Um, I do share concerns that I think could be potential, uh, uh, for lack of a better word, landmines, um, in terms of home rule. Um, and I, I'm also a little bit, you know, concerned. And I, I do appreciate just from a personal perspective, um, you know, I'm all, I'm all about streamlining processes and, you know, making it easier to do things. Um, but there, there are a couple of nuances in this that obviously hit right to the pain points of our community. And one of those, the parking and, you know, 15% reduction. I know we're probably just talking about a few spaces, but you know, at the end of the day, that's go, that circles right back to chipping away at our ability to, to essentially manage our city. And, uh, but, um, you know, I do think, and I shared the perspective that it is a tool in the toolkit for affordable housing, and we most certainly need that. But, you know, in the case of Danita, and it really boils down to the fact that we really don't have available land to, to, to do this. Now, I, I really enjoy the perspective of the deputy city manager because the, the malls, that is a, that is a great place to really rejuvenate and, you know, renovate aspects of our community. So anyway, I greatly appreciate it. It was a very, very well done presentation. I'm, I'm walking away smarter than I was an hour ago, and, uh, greatly appreciate that. Mayor, final comments? No, I, I don't really have anything. I thought it was a great presentation. Nicole, George, thank you. And, uh, great comments by my colleagues, so I'll leave it at that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. Have a good one. All right. Uh, next item on the agenda, business survey action plan. Good morning. Good morning, Nicole. What's that? The other Nicole. All right. Uh, good morning, mayor online, uh, vice mayor commission, Nicole Delfino, strategy and sustainability manager. Um, I know George is walking, uh, our guests out, uh, but we'll be joining me as we kind of walk through this. Um, this is, um, the business survey action plan, uh, earlier in 2020, uh, I guess it's not 2025 anymore. Is it last year we conducted a, a business survey, uh, that gave us a lot of really great information. And at that presentation, um, on the results in September to the commission, uh, we, uh, then, uh, provided that we would bring back an action plan, which is what we're here today to do. And I apologize. Uh, like, it sounds like many of you all, I am recovering from a cold. So, um, as we move through this really quickly, we'll take a quick look back at the business survey findings. Uh, we'll go through the action plan and the recommendations. Um, and we'll get, um, we both have Bob and George will be here to answer some specific questions, um, um, as needed as we go through and just feel free as we're going through anything. If you have questions, we can, we can stop at each, at each item, however you'd like to proceed. Um, so quickly taking a look at those business survey findings and how we crafted this action plan was really looking at those kind of highest, uh, or I guess you could say either highest or lowest rated rated items. So, um, this is a slide from, uh, the business survey itself. I'm just, uh, highlighting, I placed some stars next to those things that we're focusing on, um, in the action plan. So is that planning for the future, um, the business opportunities, the affordable housing, um, some of those things are being selected because, um, they represented either the very high or the very low, uh, scale of where things needed to be, or we saw a lot of repetition in the business plan, um, as far as the comments surrounding those areas. Um, again, uh, we talk about easing traffic congestion, uh, attracting new businesses and then retaining existing businesses or items we'll see in this action plan. Um, and then here, uh, we've got that question as far as, you know, where or what our efforts be best put or most beneficial to, uh, businesses, um, that would be retaining businesses, um, supporting growth and development, attracting tourists, uh, traffic congestion again, um, and then attracting new businesses. Uh, and then again, we see a lot of those same kind of themes repeated in the biggest challenges, which you'll then see as they make their way into the actual business survey action plan, which we will take a look at. Um, in the presentation itself, I've just summarized the, the kind of the, the high level pieces of the action plan. The action plan is also attached in your agenda. I'm sure you all have taken a look at it. Um, so I kind of will have both of them, uh, to go through, um, if you would like, um, I'm not sure what you have, what you all have pulled up on your screen. Um, the action plan itself obviously provides a lot more background, a lot more information. Um, so as I stated, where we kind of summarized all of the information was in these seven categories, uh, growth management and small town character, housing affordability, communication and business engagement, transportation, parking, and mobility permitting and code enforcement, storm preparedness and business resilience and business retention and off season support. So we'll just jump right in. Um, so the first topic here, uh, the growth management and the small town character. So we wanted to craft an action plan that kind of looked at what the biggest issue, um, in the area, in this, in this area was, um, being that, you know, 35% of respondents believe Dunedin is growing too fast. Um, looking at, uh, areas of concern like traffic, uh, parking shortages, loss of character and aesthetics. Um, and then not just saying, okay, well, we understand what these issues are, but really having an understanding of what we're already doing, what the environment is, and then potential, you know, some potential solutions. These are in some cases just, um, kind of big picture ideas. Um, they would require some, you know, additional vetting, some planning, um, potentially, um, bringing back, uh, uh, to you as a CIP or BPI, kind of depending on, uh, what the item is itself. So this is kind of lays a framework for what we can do to address some of these issues. Um, so in, as far as growth management goes, um, really working a lot with, uh, George and his team on this, um, was really kind of understanding the development that we have had. And that's, um, part of this, um, what we also worked quite closely with, um, Superness and Director Communications, um, with a campaign to address kind of a did you know. So what have we actually done in the last several years? What has been approved? Um, you know, where there's this perception where a lot has happened when in reality, um, the, the numbers, you know, show that population has actually reduced, that development is, uh, the applications have, you know, been pretty slow these last few years. Um, if you have any questions in regards to any of that content or that data that's included in the plan, um, that's from George. So happy to bring him up. Um, so really kind of having a better understanding and communication plan with, you know, how we're putting out the information about, uh, growth management and our, and our character. Um, again, some of the things that we can look forward to, um, are improving those communications on those projects and then taking a look at that parking and transportation strategy. And I'm just going to keep on going unless you all interrupt me. Um, from the housing affordability standpoint, um, we had a third of a business, a third of our businesses, um, identifying affordable housing as a, as a concern, um, impacting employees and workforce. Uh, so some of the things that we have taken a look at, and I know, you know, I, again, items that may be in process in some case, um, and that's with Bob Ironsmith, our, uh, director of economic development and housing is working on kind of revitalizing the Dunedin, uh, housing authority. I think you'll be seeing, uh, that coming before you in February. Um, we have an affordable housing toolkit. That's more of a, did you know what we already have? Um, communicating that out. I know George just mentioned, you know, putting some of that content together, um, as far as the live local act for developers. So that's something that will be coming as well. Obviously the, uh, the existing flats or the, the, the, the, the coming flats, uh, project. Um, and then of course, expanding our partnerships, um, potentially revisiting, uh, the ADU ordinance. I know you just mentioned that Commissioner Gow, um, as far as items that not only we're doing, we're in process, or we can look at as in, in, in relate, in relation to this category. Um, next is the communication and business engagement. Uh, for this, um, we had 62% uh, rating the city communication as great or excellent. Um, there were very few, uh, it was very small, meager, 11%, um, uh, rating it as poor. Perhaps there, you know, there could be any reason, number of reasons for, for that rating. Um, it is not a large number. Certainly, um, perhaps we just haven't connected on the right channels with those individuals. Um, but one of the items that was actually discussed, um, during the survey presentation, um, which was brought up by, uh, Commissioner Gow was what about a business or a, a, a citizens academy for businesses. And so, uh, we've set to work. We kind of crafted a outline for what the, uh, business education and exploration program. I've fondly named it beep, uh, could entail, looking very much like this, a citizens academy for businesses. Again, this is an item that, uh, would be staff run, um, be held mostly during the day is what we've kind of talked about. Um, so the expenses of it would be pretty limited, but you would see this come before you as a BPI in the future, um, or this, for this future budget session. Um, we've talked about rotating, uh, business round tables in various districts, um, you know, ensuring we've got representation. Uh, I know Sue and her team are working on, um, LinkedIn content and really connecting with businesses through that platform. Um, and then again, we've got partnership mentions. Um, we did sit down with the Chamber of Commerce, uh, to go over this plan. Um, you know, they were very much on board and in support. They're doing some of their, you know, own work where we can partner with them. I will talk a little bit about their ambassador program, kind of in business engagement, um, you know, a little further in the presentation. Um, but they're doing some good work there as well. As far as transportation and parking, um, I feel like, uh, as Dr. Neely has said, he's been, you know, he's presented to you a number of times. Um, I don't think there's any municipality in the state of Florida that doesn't have transportation and parking as an issue, um, in any of their surveys. So this comes as no surprise. Um, but to address, uh, traffic congestion, parking availability, and walkability, um, we have some, you know, a few concepts here, um, and some info, and again, some information about how many parking spaces we do have, um, the least, uh, spaces that we provide, uh, the traffic, um, uh, routes or the, the traffic numbers that have come from Forward Pinellas, um, as far as kind of what, what traffic is happening on our, on our roadways, uh, the, the indicator, the data provided that, um, we have sufficient road capacity in the city for the traffic that we do have, um, and then as far as those, um, you know, future or, um, uh, improvements that we can look at, uh, obviously some, we've got some signage mentioned, um, advertising remote parking lots, the, uh, parking, the downtown, uh, parking garage, um, the walkability and safety, uh, we've, I think Bob and his team have done a great, uh, job addressing that with, uh, projects throughout the years, um, improving the, the sidewalks and the, in the, um, ADA accessibility all of those walkways through downtown, um, I think that this will, uh, always be one that comes up in the, in the survey as far as traffic signal coordination, um, I think we would all love that to happen, um, that is a little, again, some of this is, requires a little bit more effort and partnership with, uh, with other, uh, folks to, to make those things, uh, to make those things happen, uh, as far as permitting and code enforcement, uh, here we, uh, really heard from our businesses, uh, it, there's, it says we've, the report was a quarter of businesses expressed dissatisfaction with permitting and code enforcement. I want to, uh, put with that a caveat where I think we really saw a lot of the comments happening post storm, um, and there have been a lot of things, um, that we've already, that George and his team have already put in place, um, to address those issues, um, again, some of this is the, the did you know, um, uh, the team had already, you know, implemented, uh, the online permitting system, um, so that is really, um, addressing, uh, you know, whether it's owners or, or businesses being able to look at what their contractors are doing to pull the information, um, the turnaround time for our permit team is, is actually quite phenomenal, um, typically it's got a two-day time frame, um, if there's no reviews, um, but, um, nothing exceeding four days in a, in a normal situation, um, there's zoning review information, uh, you know, again, reported at three days with 78% completed in less than two days, so they've got a lot of good data now that they're using the online system, um, with what's being submitted, how fast the turnaround time is, um, and so on and so forth, so we'll continue to track that and kind of be able to share that information, um, of course, there's always, you know, room for improvement, whether that's just sharing, you know, the understanding of codes and how it impacts businesses, um, Julie's been in place for a while now, I think she's made some great strides, um, to, um, have relationships with our businesses, she's out and about, she's talking with folks, um, really educating them on, on the, on the code aspect of things, um, we talked about, you know, permitting and, and code coffee chats, um, I will say, uh, the Chamber of Commerce, uh, the Government Affairs typically has Julie come and present to the Chamber of Commerce, uh, folks, um, the, the members there, um, again, increasing that awareness, uh, and just being able to have that open dialogue has seemed to, um, address a lot of things, uh, ahead of time, uh, and then, you know, there's a few other items here, uh, there's a potential to consider a magistrate process, um, and then, of course, as I mentioned, you know, working with the Chamber on that communication for this piece. For storm preparedness and business resilience, um, there were 38% of businesses that felt very prepared, um, again, a lot of this, um, the comments with regards to storm preparedness were really after the fact, um, we talked a little bit about that and some of the things that, um, community development has already put in place, uh, the new, um, code policy regarding temporary housing, trailers, boats, um, uh, and that sort of thing post-storm, what's permitted now, uh, of course, our storm communication, um, via our newsletter post-storm is phenomenal, um, we talked about identifying, um, staff to serve as business liaison so they have a one point of contact, um, I think that was really important for Jennifer that, you know, should we go into an emergency event such as we experienced in 2024 that they'd have somebody that they could reach out to to help guide them through, um, what do they need to do, where are the resources that we can get them connected to, um, we, uh, in response to some of this, you know, again, we, uh, developed that resiliency rebate, um, that was started in October of 2025. It has been very successful. It is open to both residents and businesses, so we're, you know, seeing and pushing that information out as well, um, and then of course those partnerships with what resources does the county provide, uh, Pinellas County economic development that we can connect, um, our businesses when they are needing either recovery grants or that, that sort of loan, uh, navigation. Um, and then as we move into the last topic, the business retention and off-season support, um, so it mentions that 20% of businesses, uh, were satisfied or very satisfied with efforts to attract new, uh, businesses, um, specifically citing challenges during the off-season. Um, we actually, several of us were at a chamber government affairs presentation with Visit St. P. Clearwater. Um, there was a lot of, uh, information that was shared during that event to help, um, and really the things that they're doing to, um, assist businesses, especially during the off-season. So I think there's a lot of good information being shared and that's kind of, you know, that always helps to how do we continue to make things better, make things easier for our businesses, um, during the off-season. So enhancing that partnership, um, we talked about this developing a business retention and expansion program, um, that needs a little bit, I think of, of some, some thought and, and creativity behind what that would look like, um, coming out of, um, either Bob's, you know, shop with a partnership with the chamber. Um, I had mentioned the chamber has started a, um, a chamber ambassador program. So they've got these ambassadors who are assigned to, you know, go out to all corridors, you know, all businesses throughout the city, um, and really just have kind of a touch base. How are things going? How are you doing? That's really kind of, um, helping with retention. We actually talk to them also, um, when they're, when they're doing these site visits, if we can maybe have a set, you know, a set of questions that they're always asking, um, so that we can, you know, we can understand how things are being gauged across the different areas and different businesses, if it's, if it's a trend, if it's a one-off kind of thing. So we'll continue to work with them, um, to, you know, do what we can to enhance, uh, the business retention and that, and that off-season support. And then as far as next steps go, um, it's just having you all, uh, take a look at and, and endorse the actions of the action plan. Um, we would again have to do some work, um, internally, uh, with what, what, what of these, which parts of these items require, you know, work plans and additional information, whether that's being brought back to you as a CPI or CIP or BPI, um, and then monitoring, and then we'll, we'd move into the monitoring and then reporting of those items. So with that, do you all have any questions? Thank you, Nicole. Um, I am going to turn it over to Commissioner Sandberg and questions for staff. You know, we hear that term loss of small-town character. What do you, what do you think that really means? Uh, is there, is there an answer to that? Uh, yeah, it's, I think it's, I think it's, I think it's difficult to really, you know, put a figure to something like that, right? Um, it's hard to capture that data. I think you have a mix of, uh, of residents and businesses who have been here, you know, since, as Bob says, the tumbleweed time. Um, and, and it has changed. I mean, a lot of us have been here for a long time and, and it has changed. But I think that the difference, you know, in the perspective of what we want to try to explain is that is the growth has been very intentional. And some of that comes with that communication, uh, piece of things, putting out, you know, putting out some articles, putting out information about, you know, obviously, you know, why things have happened and how they've happened, um, to be able to maintain that, you know, the, the, the height restrictions that you put in place. You know, we hear those things sometimes on social media. We don't want to become X, Y, Z city, town, county, whatever. Um, but there are those provisions that you have in place that will, would prevent that from happening. And that maybe it's just unawareness. Um, it's very hard to kind of capture that. But again, we wanted to just say, we hear you. Um, but this is why this, that's what, you know, we're, we're doing the best that we can. Um, and this is why we're protecting what we have. You know, the, and it was brought up about, um, attracting new businesses and retaining. I mean, Bob, you know, as well as I do, there's not a lot of vacancy downtown. And if you open up a business and you put us, you know, you put your sign out front, you're probably going to be successful in this city. And so I, I just, I mean, I, I, I commend people for answering that, but I, I really would like to know how they arrived at that answer. I, yeah. Um, there was also a question about storm. Yeah. Cause I'm going to come back to you too, about this past weekend, what, some things I experienced downtown. So if you want to, you know, I, I was just going to do a little bit of tongue in cheek. Uh, Bucky's is not coming to the city. I just want to make it very clear. So that was a Photoshop Facebook deal. So no, I just a little, uh, little levity there, but, uh, as far as small town, I think it's really, you know, people love the sidewalk, love walkability, love saying, you know, good morning, good afternoon, happy new year, what have you. I think that's the feeling. And I think the city's done a great job with making sure heights don't get out of, uh, you know, proportion, making sure the projects still fit. And I think the city process is, is, is, is fairly, uh, diligent in order to make developers be pretty aware that these projects need to fit within it. And I think we're seeing that a little bit with what George and I work with, with downtown and elsewhere. So I think that, uh, the city's done a good job with that. You know, and you know, it's obvious that, you know, I do work a lot with you and I'm very proud of our downtown and very committed to, you know, I've been here for 40 plus years. I know what it was and I know what it is today. You know, and I just wanted, this is maybe more comment than question. This past weekend, we had that art fest. Did you, did you, I don't know if you had a chance to visit it, but I did. I did not. Uh, staff was there. Trevor Davis was, I was not, but he was well attended. I did hear that. It was, you know, Saturday morning, um, I had my golf cart downtown and I had actually stop because there was just, you know, just droves of, you know, uh, visitors, you know, shoppers, merchant, you know, uh, visitors coming down. And, uh, of course, you know, what's your thought? All of a sudden the weather turned bad. I mean, we had a beautiful morning and the weather turned bad. It did. What I saw happen because I, I watch, I watch these merchants close their curtains, roll down their, you know, their business to protect their product. I feel at that time that our permanent merchants capitalized, it looked like that crowd of people moved off of main street and into the shops, the restaurants, the, the bars, you know, is, did I imagine that or did I see something good for our, our merchants? No, no, you saw something good. And in addition to that is just to get the visibility that people might not even shop or eat or whatever that day, they'll come back. So what these events do in balance is bring visitation and people exposure so they can see. So I know sometimes a merchant who's more service oriented, doesn't quite see the impact during the special event, but they do afterward. They'll say, well, see, that's where the hair salon is, or that's where the dentist is, or something along those lines. And people just like to feel, a lot of people today are getting tired of franchises. Okay. You know, whether it's a franchise restaurant or it's a franchise, whatever, they like that local presence. And one of the things that's worked in our favor is we have very small properties. And that has worked well for us, because we're not seeing it being absorbed for something that's very large out of scale, which is a franchise. You know, we've had very few. And the reason is the properties are small. So it's worked in our favor. And what George and I just worked on, yes, Chase Bank is going to be a franchise. There's no drive-through. And George made sure of that. So, which is great. We worked very well together. But, and we also beat them up pretty good on architecture and how it's going to fit in with the entranceway into our downtown. It was just, it was so encouraging to see that amount of people, visitors, you know, and it was, you know, during the football playoffs, many college team, you know, jerseys, professional teams. So these weren't locals. You could tell these people were vacationers and, you know, mother nature just really threw us a curve ball. I mean, it was packed and it was, it was really on, really on its way. And then, you know, Sunday, it looked like the crowds were a little bit less. I went down because I'm, I'm very committed to walking through and I do stop and talk to these visitors. People want to introduce myself and make sure that they're having a good time. And I, you know, that's why some, wherever there's negative, you know, feedback, this parking thing, I've been hearing about it for years. People found a place to park. They participated in that part, in that, in that art show. So, I mean, we have to pat ourselves on the back. And we have more parking coming and we have more parking coming. I know, I know. So, no, I mean, that's something, you know, it's over 300 million dollar asset downtown. We want to ensure that the parking is there. And listen, if you're up in the northeast and it's 20 degrees, you want to be down here, right? I mean, that's just a given. Exactly. So, that's all I had. I didn't want to go on this long tangent about that, but thank you. And I apologize. We cannot put controlling the weather in the action plan. Thank you, Commissioner Sandberg. And I was about ready to mute you. Commissioner Gow. Thank you, Vice Mayor. Regarding the, the permitting, and it seems to be a never-ending point of conversation, right? That our permitting cannot be fast enough. It cannot be good enough. And, and we had in our presentation or in the, in the staffing, some stats on, on our permitting. And so, and we talked about the data that we have and how good our data is. Do we have a dashboard that, it's good to have all this data, but if we keep it to ourselves, how can we solve the never-ending negative comments about permitting? So, we, I do believe we're developing a dashboard for the strategic plan. We could probably incorporate this data into that dashboard if that's something that the commission would be interested in. You know, EPL is a very transparent system, like Nicole said. You can look at it as an end. You don't even have to be signed up to the system. You can look at it through the public portal. If you're, and you know, one of the concerns to me too, commissioners, is, you know, this is, this is the business folks that are making these comments. And typically, they're not the clients for our permitting platform. You know, that's going to be the licensed contractor. And the idea was to make sure that they could see what their licensed contractor was doing as part of the permitting process. So, we think we've achieved that. You know, we touch probably 350 building permits per month and over 100 zoning inquiries per month. We put those out the door within two to three business days on standard, which I don't know of any other community that does it that fast. So, you're right. I think it's more about communicating the fact that we have this great transparent system and we need to get that data live. And maybe we can do that as part of a strategic plan dashboard. And when I look at the data, I mean, the data seems good from my perspective, but I've never been on the receiving end. I've never been the one that's waiting on the permit. And so, when I see two days, never four, and you know, I think it was 94 percent of permits are reviewed within two days, never four. So, that means that there's six percent that might be on that third day. Are there any industry standards? Are there any goals? Are we comfortable with two days? Is the community comfortable with two to three days? Or is the goal to get to one? Yeah, no. So, you know, I've got one plan reviewer in the office, as you all know. So, I think one would be a goal. That's going to require some probably additional resources to get there. Even with the system as user-friendly as it is, it comes down to manpower then and the ability to do those. Like I said, they're looking at they're doing 300 plan touches a month. That's one person doing those 300 plan touches. If I may interject, you know, I've been around the block a little bit and certainly see what other communities doing. Georgia's shop turns around quicker than anywhere else. If someone wants to go to Pinellas County or something like that, it's going to be way, way different. So, I got to tell you, we've never lost a deal or anything like that because we didn't get response or be able to get through the process. A lot of it just comes down to perception. They just don't want to go. You know, a contractor many times because they don't get the project going on time that they thought they're going to go and they have a client, what do they do? They blame the city. Couldn't get a permit. It's not the case at all. So, I got to tell you, two days is quick. If there was a sample of the other communities, you know, George, his staff should really be recognized. They do a fantastic job. So, I can tell you that and I got to work closely with them because I'm on the front lines too in a lot of ways. And just quickly on the, what's really cool about the system is the email that's generated to the owner when they submit and then the second email that goes out to the owner who wants to plant the permits approved. So, some of that stuff that was happening before where the developer was saying to the client, it's the city holding us up. It's hard for them to do that now because of the transparency of that system and that particular action. Okay. And thank you for that. And I would think that all the good things that our permitting department does and how successful it is needs to be a constant drumbeat, especially when you're out there talking to other businesses, you're talking to the chamber, and it should be with a sense of pride. And if they want to push back on that, certainly listen to them, but make them quantify their expectations at the same time. Because it's just, since I've been on the dais, it's just a constant. We've heard for decades that we suck. But the data doesn't show that. So, a huge difference of opinion there. And I think it's all communication, Sue. It's just a matter of getting the message out there. And you can't say it and then be done with it. It's got to be a constant drumbeat. Anyway, sorry, Mayor. I didn't mean to go into comments there. My second thing is the ever-ending comment from residents over overdevelopment, losing that downtown charm, and still, even today, trying to get us to identify what small-town charm is brings stumbles and stuttering and a little bit of smirk. We just don't really know. And I'm concerned about the disconnect between city government and the community on really trying to identify the most unique factor that we have and the inability to go, okay, this is what we mean by small-town charm, to make sure that we don't lose it. But we talk about the census shows that we haven't had any growth since 2010. But yet, the residents feel we're losing our downtown. What's the missing factor there, in your opinion? Do you want to try that one? Yeah, no. It is interesting that Chuck's opposed to it. It is hard to explain. Certainly, it's a lot of traffic going around the city that people complain about. As far as downtown, I think a lot of it has changed. It's always a balance between also bringing new experiences into the downtown and making sure that the downtown can go ahead and do well. You know, it used to be for years when I was here, they would just hang on in the summer and they would be closed on Mondays most of the time. Now, it's a different situation. Things are busier. Things are more active. Yes, it's a little bit more challenging to go ahead and circulate, maybe to find a parking spot. But I think the small-town charm is still there. The special events, the accessibility of anyone to you all as a commissioner or staff is still here. When I worked at the county, you're pretty much removed. You're not removed here at the city of Dunedin. So, I think a lot of it is just perception. And sometimes people just don't like change. But I think for the most part, we've still got the small-town charm downtown, which is indicative of why everyone comes downtown. People still want to be here. We have not seen any vacancies downtown for really quite some time. If there is one, it fills quickly. So, people still want to come. So, as far as that perception, it is hard to answer. I think we still got definitely the small-town charm. I think we were probably one of the strongest and had that small-town feel in the state of Florida. You know, I really do. And I think we're going to continue to keep that, even with some new development that's going to go and occur. Yeah. And I mean, Bob will tell you, when we go through a design review process, particularly for a downtown project, it is the compatibility provision that the city has, to me, is the greatest provision I've ever seen in my entire planning career. Because it gives me the ability to go into these pre-meetings and say to the developer, yeah, you may want to come in. And I'm glad Nicole left the room, because she was talking about full development rights and full height. You know, we, you know, the developers will typically start there. And Bob, with Bob's help and with city management help, and you know, we work through that design review committee process, and we work through the LPA. And we get those, we get those initial over builds down to something that we think is very manageable and very fitting with what, what's around it. So, I think that's a big piece of it is us being able to use that compatibility piece and making that work as far as the form of development. And of course, the architectural standards. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that. We are very aggressive on our architectural standards. We have an architectural review committee that takes it very seriously and provides recommendation to the LPA, up to the city commission. And I think those two pieces, we probably just need to communicate maybe more than we do. And you know, when people start to understand what, you know, these developments take a year and a half, two years to evolve. So, it's not like developers coming in a week later, we're putting them in front of the LPA. These things take a long time. So, I think maybe getting that message out would help people understand that there is a real process here to make sure our character is not compromised. Good morning. Mayor, Vice Mayor Sue Burness, Director of Communications. I just wanted to pop in here for a minute. Obviously, we're working very closely with George, Nicole, and Bob on messaging and telling the story. And I want to remind all of you that what you often hear is not reality. We have tools. We have sentiment measuring tools that on any given day, our positivity ranking through all of the tools that we use is so strong and so not negative. And remember, we recently did the brand refresh with Chandler. They did extensive surveys through the community. They did focus groups. They did out-of-market surveys to come up with what the brand is. And the five pillars of Dunedin, the number one pillar, they called it our Mickey ears, is our downtown. So, when you hear people say lost charm, it goes back to people don't like change. They might see a little change, a few more people, more traffic. But I think you have that almost in any community. Every community is going to move forward and evolve. If they don't, they're stagnant. And often social media, if you're hearing some of this on social media, it is no longer social. It is actually antisocial. In fact, I think I sent you an email maybe a month or so ago about the property tax topic, which we'll talk about very soon, but that we're recommending in-person meetings, forums, because we don't control the algorithms of social media. And sometimes people grab these phrases that are trite or they want to jump on that negativity bandwagon. And sometimes they're not even our neighbors who live here. So I just want you to know that what we see from our perspective, our lens using some very sophisticated tools that for the most part, people do not feel like Dinadan has lost their small charm. And especially our downtown is truly our Mickey ears. No Buc-ee's. No Buc-ee's. No Buc-ee's. Okay. Thank you, Sue, for that. I really do appreciate that. What I might suggest is almost then like permitting and the data, we have to combat that. Like social media, not like social media. It is here and it's as ugly as it ever has been. But that constant positivity promoting, here's what our data is saying. You can still have your opinion, but here's what the data is saying. So hopefully fight against that because we're about to see a whole lot of changes in our downtown. Big changes that are going to change the downtown, whether we like it or not. Right? Ocean Optics is an entire block that is going to permanently change our downtown. We've got right dining across the street from that United Methodist Church, their sanctuary. You know, that's going. And so you're going to see some massive development in the next 10 years. And we have to do our best to manage that. And we can't just say, well, change is change. Because some change is good, some change is bad. And so just to do what we can to maintain that we, because that small town charm, that cute, quaint character community is really what defines us. And I'm still that believer in that if we don't keep our eye on the ball, and I'm sorry, Mayor, this is going in the comments. I understand. I was just going to say, I understand everything you said, and certainly some really good points. Remember, this is redevelopment. This is not green pasture land. So this is redevelopment of buildings that are already there, too. So I think that we have to communicate that better to the public, too. And I do respect that. But especially for something like Ocean Optics, half to three quarters of that block is parking. And so it's almost like pasture. It's flat land. There's nothing on it. And you're going to replace a flat space with three to four stories. And so... I apologize for interrupting, but I'd like to give my colleagues an option. I respect that. Look at that. Look at that, Mayor. Vice Mayor is handling me well. Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you. Great comments. Commissioner Dugard. Thank you, Vice Mayor. And thank you, Jeff, for your comments. I appreciate this. What was the dates of the survey? And how many were surveyed? We held the survey. It's probably on my agenda. I'm sorry. I apologize. We held the survey in the summer of 2025. Okay. And I know we had a really a significant increase in numbers. I'd have to... The survey is attached with that information, but I'd have to thumb through my papers. I'm just trying to find the numbers. Okay. Total of 279 partially completed surveys were received. And to what number of potential respondents? What was our large N, as they would call it? Well, we sent the survey to... I think we were actually able to pull all the business tax receipts emails. So I want to say we're around 800. A little more than 800. Excellent response rate. Thank you. That's good to know. Nicole, you will know better than most people in this room that a survey is a perception document and that you will get all kinds of opinions and expressions within it. Was there anything that stood out to you and the responses that you think you should share with this group? Well, I mean, that's really the purpose of creating this action plan was to focus on those, you know, the highest level of topics of what we saw needed to, you know, potentially could be addressed. And again, whether that's just through information sharing or actually developing some sort of program project plan, whatever it may be to address that, that's where we really wanted to compile all of those into this action plan. So the survey, you know, had a lot of, obviously, a lot of questions, a lot more data. This was just to really focus in on those, you know, top, you know, areas where we could, where we can attempt to improve that perception. Got it. And you said we partnered with the chamber on this survey. Is that correct? The survey was conducted completely through the city. Of course, when we issue a survey, we always share that content with the chamber. They share it through their newsletter. What we did when we created the action plan was we actually sat down with the chamber. We went through the action plan to kind of get them to, you know, understand, you know, some of the items that we included in here. Because a lot of these items in this action plan are not necessarily things that are kind of in our control. Some of them are handled by the county. Some of them could be handled by the chamber. Those programs are those things that the chamber is doing. Connecting those resources that they already do is just kind of things that we can enhance that relationship. So it was really important to us that we were kind of all on the same page. We're all, we're all working towards the same goal to get that support. And then that's why they had sent over that information. I attached the agenda on their ambassador program that they've been working on. Was there a sort on the survey relative to what we call our downtown businesses and our out of downtown businesses to see what the differentials were within those two groups? That was all in the original survey. What we took from the, the report was, you know, a consolidation of that information. If you wanted a sort on the, on the actual data, I can get that to you separate. I mean, from. Let's talk about that later. That's all I have, Vice Mayor. Okay. Thank you, Commissioner de Garda. Before I send it over to the Mayor, questions. And I, I do, you know, greatly appreciate Commissioner Gao's comments because those were perfectly framing the questions that I have. The, the one thing now, it was mentioned earlier in this is, is that the data that's been collected, the, the action plan. Um, this, this all should be, and I believe it is. In fact, I'm almost positive it is, is that it feeds into our strategic plan. Is that a correct statement? Oh, were you going to answer? I thought you, um, of course. I mean, that's kind of the, the, the components that we, we even just kind of talked about here, those dashboarding features where, you know, we're going to bring that dashboard online in the spring. Um, you know, those sorts of pieces that are part of that, of that plan. I think I, off the top of my head, I feel like I put my strategic plan hat on. I mean, we have a lot of those features, um, a lot of those comments in the plan, maintaining the small town charm. I mean, that's a literally a line in our strategic plan. Um, you know, those, those sorts of, those sorts of items. So there are specific action items in the plan, but what I've been talking about with each of our teams, um, is kind of really looking at some of those measurements that drive those larger themes. So whether it's, um, you know, services or, um, you know, any of those items. So yes, everything is, is, is, as we have been moving forward with everything related to CIP, BPI, anything that we do is related to our strategic plan. Yeah, that's perfect. And you actually answered my second question. So we'll be bringing that dashboard on line in the spring. Yes, that is, that is the goal. Um, I've already in the month of December, um, met with teams to kind of give that, give that, you know, have those discussions. What are those things that we're going to measure? Because sometimes there's things in an action plan that aren't really going to be useful for measuring that bigger picture goal. But when we talk about, um, there's, you know, we've got a good governance in the strategic plan and it's customer focused and there's improving permitting, you know, comments in that plan. Um, so putting, putting that piece of what is our turnaround time, what is, what are the rates? That's kind of a, a better tell for that bigger picture than just saying, you know, we processed, you know, 350 permits and leave it at that. That's not, you know, so we're really working through getting the most valuable information or those measures to really drive those bigger picture items. Okay, good. And, and how just kind of from a progress standpoint, um, because I, I, you know, establishing those metrics and establishing the performance criteria for those metrics, um, you know, that, that takes time. And I'm just curious as if you were to estimate how far we are long in that process. Um, I, I actually feel like the last budget cycle, um, I did sit down actually with a number of our teams to refine the, the performance measures and the budget document. And so we've already been thinking about, you know, how, what is that data that we want to look at? That's kind of driving those bigger pictures. So we, we've had those conversations, those conversations last year. Um, again, we're, we're having them again. Um, so really trying to get each, each team to focus on, let's start with, you know, two to five and take a look at what those are, get them, uh, we'll, we'll track them in the same software we're tracking strategic planning and, um, because that will be what we'll push out for to the back dashboard. Um, so, you know, that's that, that's all, that's a, that's a, that's a big project in the next six months. Good. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm really looking forward to that. And then in terms of the output, in addition to those metrics, um, I'm assuming that the BPI's and CPI's are starting to bubble to the surface. Yes. So we actually, um, uploaded the BPI's and CPI's in the same tracking system. They are now all each tied to a strategic theme. Um, so I'm, we will be able to start breaking things down by, by theme, um, by goal, um, as far as where the dollars are, where the projects, you know, X amount of projects are in this theme, X amount of dollars to these projects are in this theme. So we'll, we, we've just started that. Um, we'll, we'll hopefully get some, you know, start to get some information out of that as we start to really tie all of these things together. Okay. Uh, the only ask I would have on that is, is that, you know, is that especially the BPI's and CPI's, um, it'd be great if we could have, uh, you know, possibly some draft presentation in advance before we get into budget season. Um, I, I don't know if that's possible, but yeah, absolutely. I know that will be, that will be less and I'm going to defer to Jorge slash Jennifer. Okay. Uh, last question. Um, and this is more granular as it pertains to code, but, um, first of all, we got great businesses in Dunedin, uh, our restaurants, our bars, our craft breweries, our retail. Um, what has been brought to my attention, and I, I believe that this is something that we need to take a look at is, is that in terms of the promotion of the businesses in the downtown core, the ability to promote is not necessarily created equal amongst the various industries. Um, example, um, there are a couple of retail outlets that have, have been somewhat vocal, more so possibly in the last year with regards to their ability to put promotional stuff out on the sidewalk in their area. Um, and, uh, what is currently available in terms of the ordinance is, is that they are limited to what are called sandwich signs. Uh, the sandwich signs basically advertise beverages and food for the various beverage and food providers. Um, I'm just curious. I, and I really do believe we need to take a look at this because it, you know, especially when we close the streets, because what happens is, is that I do believe the re re some of the retailers are at a disadvantage with regards to their ability to capture that traffic back and forth. Um, so I guess, uh, what the question of this is, have we looked at that at all? Because I see some heads nodding out there. So I think you guys are aware of this. I mean, when it comes to special events and street closures, our code enforcement team isn't normally because those are typically after hours or on weekends, our code enforcement team isn't there for those, but we do have a working relationship with the sheriff's office to help us out, you know, on for weekend events and so forth. I know Julie, uh, and her code team, uh, have worked pretty hard in the downtown to make sure that those rules were applied equally for as, as far as bringing, uh, uh, sellables out onto the sidewalk. In fact, I don't even think you're allowed to, I can't remember what the code says. I'm not sure you're even allowed to do it, but, um, um, you know, we can, you know, we can certainly, you know, I can certainly talk to Julie and we can, we can, we can get her out there maybe a little bit on the weekend. She's doing some weekend work now on occasion. Yeah. What I would say is, and I, okay. And my ask on this would be exactly that is for perhaps it's Julie and whomever. I just go talk to the retailers and just ask them, you know, if, if in a perfect world, you know, what could they do on a commensurate level? And the, the retailers that I've spoken to are familiar with the, the ordinance that's currently in place. And I believe in the ordinance, it's, I think it's still called a sandwich board or something like that. Yeah. So that's, yeah. If every business is allowed, like one, I think it has to be a slate sandwich board that's a certain size. And yeah, but you know, when you, you just put it into perspective, you know, that, that, that definitely would work for, you know, a food and beverage outlet, but maybe there's another way to approach this. And I, I'll just say, you know, maybe put a few items out side the doors of the, the establishment. And I know that the, I think there's some concerns because I, I did bring this up about a year ago. And then I basically told that it was going to be problematic, but I, I just think we need to take a look at that. And that's the ask that I have. So that, that could entail code change. We would work with Bob's office and the CRA downtown, you know, he's got some provisions in the CRA master plan. I can work with George. Of course. Yeah. I think the concern was the look and feel and that some of the sidewalks aren't that wide that if you put it on a rack of, I'm just making things up, vice mayor, if you put a rack of clothes or things up there and people can't walk, some of the sidewalks are pretty narrow. How's that work? And is that the look and feel you want? So I think where we wound up with the city managers to allow this, you know, once or twice a year, kind of an event type situation, as opposed to just on a daily basis, because the overlook and feel and that all the characteristics were different. But if that's something that, you know, the, the, the, the commissioner wants to entertain, uh, George, and I certainly can, can I think, I think it's worth taking a look at even, even on special events, you know, just on a special event by special event basis. But anyway, that's, that's, I appreciate that answer. And, uh, yeah, a lot of it was the width of the sidewalk, walkability and then every retail is a little bit different as far as what their ability is to do that. And then it came down to look and feel, but as, as you said, maybe there could be some type of provision during, uh, the, the special events to take advantage of what you said is a foot traffic that they're not, not seeing. Yeah. So that would be some type of code provision that perhaps, uh, George and I can, can take a look at if, if that, uh, if that's Jorge, I, if this, if that's consensus, I don't know. Yeah. Vice mayor, I was going to say, we've got a department head meeting this afternoon. So we can discuss that topic. And also, you know, to Bob's comments, we can bring in, uh, input from Teresa Smallings from a risk management perspective as well. So yeah, see what the, yeah. Okay. Well, I think, excuse me, I think to explore is where we, no, that's perfect. I, yeah, I'll be, yeah, just be, I'll be interested to hear and how that kind of evolves. Yeah. I think we can put it on the, I mean, it's something we can put on the agenda for the BRC too. So we can have that discussion there. Okay. I actually, that would be a great first or second step. My own personal feeling not to, I like the idea of tying it in to some event as opposed to an everyday type thing, because it would be very hard to, uh, to manage that and ensure the walkability and it could certainly take away the look and feel. Uh, I will tell you that, uh, there's sort of a retail, I guess we have one business downtown that goes out on the sidewalk and pedals all the time, which is very frustrating. And we're hearing a lot of comments on that too, to be honest with you. So that's another situation. Well, and obviously as you look at this, you know, what we don't want to do is embark upon a slippery slope. And I would say that, um, and I do share your concern because not all, again, as promotional channels, if you will, are, are in addition to those, sidewalk space is not consistent or so. I know. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. The mayor, the mayor does have her hand up. Yep. Well, actually, those are all the questions I have, Maris, and I'm going to turn it over to you, ma'am. Well, I had an opinion on that last one. My heartbeat's going up now. Um, you know, uh, and I, I totally respect where you're coming from. And I don't know totally all your concerns of, I share, but it has been talked about many times, um, historically. Um, I think it is a very slippery slope. I think quickly it can look junky and quickly talk about small town charm being, you know, messy. Um, and, uh, from right now, Ashley, our code is you get to have a sandwich board sign, but it has to be a chalk sign, uh, similar to what Ashley does because it keeps the charm. I don't know that that's equally enforced as it should be. Um, but that was the whole, whole thing. Now, the even massive, uh, sandwich boards, all up and down, you know, no matter what the business, I, again, you know, what's the look of, what makes it look good, and then it looks like heck. Um, and, you know, it's a fine line. You know, I've talked about that with art. You know, there's a lot of artwork done in certain areas of the city and not that much in others, and all of a sudden art can look junk because it's too much altogether. So I think it's a, it's, uh, it's multifaceted. I mean, obviously I'm all about doing whatever we, how we can help our businesses, but if everything looks junky, none of our businesses will do well. Um, so, uh, and we have a lot of people coming to our downtown and stuff. Um, anyway, so those are just some thoughts, but obviously open-minded to discuss it and look at it. Didn't want to remind everybody that it's supposed to be chalk. Chalk written boards, not, you know, just any sandwich board either. And that's how people do things as well. Um, so, uh, uh, anyway, that's, so that's kind of my look on that. Um, I have a question to the technician. Is there a way that I can actually see the commission when I'm talking? Cause I see myself now because I'm getting the playback of, uh, but I guess that's because you're showing that to the audience. Okay. Um, I'll just keep going. So, um, the, uh, um, some of my other questions were, um, uh, Nicole, what's the definition of spring in your mind? Um, well, it can fall any time between February and May. Okay. Uh, so by the end of May, we'll have that. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. My next question would be, let's see. First of all, good job, Sue. I thought you, you did great on, uh, pointing out something about social media. Um, let's see. Uh, Bob, that's a question for you. A couple of questions for you. How, how are we ensuring that we're equally being responsive and addressing issues of the, all the businesses in the city versus just the downtown? And that would be my first. Yeah. You know, I think we certainly can expand some of our reach, but as far as the capital projects, obviously we did Patricia Avenue. We did some tech fencing on 580 and of course we did the flats. I know we get labeled. All we do is downtown, but frankly, we do look at a lot of things. Just certainly spending a lot of time on Coca-Cola because that is, uh, use Commissioner Gallagher game changer in a lot of ways, what happens with Coca-Cola. So we do spend a lot of time, uh, also, uh, trying to, uh, look at how we do business retention and frankly, expansion when we get those comments. So we, we got Matt Jackson on board. We're certainly going to look and how to step up a little bit economic development citywide. But I know the reaction is everything happens downtown. Of course, one of the biggest differences is we have a steady funding source downtown. You know, it's a huge, you know, we have a funding source from the county and, and, uh, additionally from the city to do what we do downtown. And that makes a big difference for us too. Um, um, I, um, I didn't see anything in the presentation about working with county, um, economic development and in the things, the programs they do and how we, uh, partner with them. Uh, maybe I missed it, but I guess, I don't know if that's Nicole or Bob, but probably a combination. Yeah, probably. Okay. I was going to say it might be more, more of mine, but, uh, we do partner, we do partner with the county. We're certainly, uh, understand the incentives that they have that we look to offer. Uh, we have, they have monthly meetings that we go to, uh, Matt goes to, Trevor Davis goes, I go occasionally. So, no, we work with the county pretty closely, uh, frankly, and we've certainly drawn them in on the Coca-Cola property because they certainly can add a lot more, uh, possible incentives that, that maybe that we don't have. So, and it's, I mean, I guess Bob, go ahead. No, no, it, it is, it is included quite a bit in the action plan document itself. Um, it's abbreviated PCED, so Pinellas County Economic Development, um, as far as the areas we can enhance those partnerships and, and again, share those resources. And, and number one way that we can work together with the county to, um, you know, to retain. I mean, like what, what, what is, what are the, what's the core of that? How do you, how do you add and help them retain businesses that we already have? Well, I guess the, the most recent example, frankly, we worked with them. They brought the lead and we worked with was Amartec. You know, that was a defense contractor on, uh, Douglas, of course, from the stadium. So that's one instance that we worked with them. Um, frankly, uh, our, our new staff member, Matt, came through the county as far as making us aware of it. So we're in pretty constant communication with the county. Uh, but we certainly can step it up too with regard to citywide. I think the thing we got to remember is we're 95% residential, you know, and I think we really have to focus on these commercial corridors. And one of the things I'd like to do is, is to have some type of workshop with, uh, with, with everybody and, and look on how we can start to tackle some of these corridors a little bit more, uh, focused or targeted, if you will, you know? Great. Um, well, listening, you guys was fascinating. So I have a lot of comments, but I don't have any more questions. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. I, I will add to, I just want to pick up a little bit. You know, we, we talked about, uh, you know, putting some, uh, merchandise on the sidewalk. You know, we got food trucks now that we're starting to see more. So because downtown is so successful, we're seeing more and more people wanting opportunities in order to run their different businesses. And I think that's something that we do need to be conscious of with that small town feel to make sure that we don't lose it. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I, I should have asked you that question directly. Like, I mean, do you understand where I'm, I mean, you, you've seen history, you know, I mean, that's, I mean, look, I don't own a business. I respect people to do. I know that when you, when, you know, when it's slow times, you'll do just about anything because that's what you do. Right. Um, I think we have to be careful that we're looking at the big picture and making sure we're, we're kind of keeping a good level of feel for everything. I mean, I guess I'll leave it at that. I, you guys, you know, I want you to, you need to take a fair look at it. Sure. But I'm, I'm concerned with, uh, doing anything too drastic. No, no, understand. I think Commissioner Galbraith, uh, a good point too. There's a lot of redevelopment that's looking to happen downtown. We're certainly going to show it again at the upcoming CRA meeting to get some thing, get some, uh, input, but yeah, there's a lot of change and we need to make sure that we manage it right. And, uh, it's, uh, it's a task that's going to challenge us all, you know, downtown is moving in a little bit of a different direction, not to lose a small town feel, but also you go ahead and have more experiences, more things to go, more places and things like that. But we are a very strong downtown. No question about it. That's important. That's all the questions I have. Thank you. Thank you so much, mayor. I'm going to open it up now to public input on this particular agenda item. And seeing none, hearing none, I'm going to bring it back to the commission for final comments. Commissioner Gao. You are brave, vice mayor. Uh, no, I've already had my comments and sometimes I sound like I'm anti-development, but, uh, I am certainly not. It's just a matter of keeping in mind who we are and where we go from there. So thank you, vice mayor. Thank you, Commissioner Gao. Commissioner Newgard. Thank you, vice mayor. Um, a lot of times we forget that, uh, the instruments we look at are not reality, they're perceptions and they're designed to grab perceptions because that's what we deal with a lot of times within our community. Um, I was actually pleased to see the low number of people concerned about permitting. I thought that was a low number. Let's remember that our property owners and our developers look at permitting as a barrier and to have such a low number relative to a barrier item to between them and getting their job done or their building built, I thought was pretty impressive. I went through that with the manager before, um, this meeting and we had a long discussion about some of the processes now to ensure that the owner and the developer are being communicated with well and I thought that we've got an outstanding system. Um, so I, I feel pretty good about this survey in a number of ways. I am interested to see if there is bifurcation between our downtown businesses and our non-downtown businesses relative to satisfaction. But outside of that, I'm very satisfied with what I'm seeing. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Gard. Commissioner Sandberg. I used up all my, uh, final comments already, so I'm good to go. Thank you, Vice Mayor. And now I feel like a heel. Um, you know, I, I think this is, uh, the survey is, uh, I, you know, I, this is, you know, it's, I, I'll say it's one of the most important things for, you know, in terms of our community, but of course, uh, our community survey is equally as important. And, uh, my, uh, what, what obviously, and I, I keep beating the drum and I, I know that, that the process by which we've arrived at, uh, not only the results of the survey, but, you know, the, the input to the strategic plan, I know that it's going to be amazing when we, we finally tie all of this together, because as you, you know, until we tie it together, it's segmented. And, you know, and the holistic picture is, is going to be very important, uh, going forward. Um, but, uh, you know, I greatly appreciate the, you know, the, the effort of you all. Um, and Sue, I, you know, your, your words with regards to public opinion, perception and reality are spot on and greatly appreciate that. So those are my comments and, uh, I will, uh, turn it over to the mayor. Okay. Um, so, um, I've got them all over you. I was writing like crazy when you guys were talking as well. You guys have put a lot out there, which it was great, great discussion. I appreciate it all. Um, some of my comments would be, first of all, I love, I love, I love, well, I love, I think the survey is great. I'm always amazed by how much the business survey and the citizen survey link. I mean, how the, the feelings cross over so much. And, um, I love, I love the business academy idea. Kudos to our commissioner gal. I think that is a great idea. Um, I know we're going to try to save money to it during the day, but you know, I mean, maybe it was just, I don't know how that would work for some businesses, but, uh, you guys will figure that out, but I, I love the idea. I think that's going to help a lot of stuff. Um, let's see. Um, I definitely appreciate Sue's comments. I think that, uh, social media just drives so much. I find myself scrolling too much these days. It's just not even healthy. Um, and, um, I, um, I think the best, uh, we have a great communication scene that kind of fills it out and that was great, but I'll, I'll repeat, you know, um, last year, I guess, um, or a year before when I was walking thousands of homes before we had the storms and you couldn't really do that as much. Um, you know, I'll tell you, you hear traffic, you hear small town feel, you hear that concern all the time, but the number one thing by far, we love the need. We love the need. We love the events. We love everything. We love the need. And I think we, we always have to keep that at our core because of course, you know, it's the negativity that seeps out and tries to pellet you. So I just think that's really important. Um, I, you know, you know, the small town charm was a great discussion. Um, you know, and I was thinking like it was only 2005 and you could still build by right an eight story building in downtown building by right. You know, now it's three stories by right and four if it's architecturally good enough. I, I think that, you know, we don't want to be back in the eighties. I was here in the eighties and, um, you know, we don't want that downtown and, um, and I think, but I think what people want to feel and, and, um, and it's an evolution. I think the commission over the years, the different commissions have done great jobs on the setbacks and reducing height, creating architecture to view. Um, and, you know, Commissioner Gao, I get it. You know, Maine, Douglas, whatever goes there is going to be a shock to our city. Um, and we've got to do the best we can to get it to fit as best we can. Um, but you know, again, we, if you don't grow, you die. I mean, again, when I ran for an election in 2016, Victoria Place was being built and everybody thought that was going to be the destruction of the need. You know, I think it was pretty good. Uh, they thought Artisan, which had already been built, was the, the ruining of the need. And you know, it kind of fits pretty good from my point of view now. Um, so again, I think we just have to try to do the best we can with each step of the way and include the, the citizens at every step. Um, you know, people that have property rights too, but we've done a lot of things to protect the charm, uh, along with the development. So, um, and my last comment, I think my last, oh, I did, uh, parking, I did want to do, I thought about in the middle of everything, big shout out again to me studying in the hospital because our parking can be a lot worse without the help they've given us and really at no cost. Um, so, um, they've been a fantastic partner on parking for us. And then, um, and then finally at permitting, um, yeah, I think like stuff, stuff like the business academy could help some of that so people understand better. But I will tell you, um, I know we make mistakes in permitting. I absolutely do, but I have yet to have somebody complain to me and I didn't go check it out and it wasn't on the contracting business. And I'm just saying, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm sure it happens, but I have yet to check one out. I know it wasn't on the contracting company. Um, so, um, but anyway, I, I feel good about, um, you know, where we're at. I think we keep trying. I think you can put some great next steps forward, uh, uh, as a team, all of you. So let's just keep loving it. Good. So thank you, Mayor, uh, for my colleagues, uh, five minute break. Okay. We're going to take a five minute break and we will, uh, re-adjourn here in five minutes. The workshop is back in session. Good morning, Sue. Good morning, Vice Mayor. Good morning, Mayor and Commission. Sue Burness, Director of Communications. And I'm up here with Nicole Delfino as some backup. And also, uh, Les Tyler is in the audience in case there are some financial questions that I can't answer, which is over my, over my head. But we're going to talk about property taxes, um, today, um, uh, briefly. And, um, as you know, the Florida legislature is, uh, currently considering multiple proposals to eliminate or substantially reduce property taxes on homesteaded properties. And if one of these proposals, which likely one probably will move forward, um, to the voters in November, it will, uh, fundamentally alter how local governments fund essential services like, um, um, public services, safety, infrastructure, parks, emergency services. Um, so in anticipation of that, last fall, we began to put together some resources for education information for our residents. Um, taxes are complicated. Um, people don't understand them. Um, um, there's a lot of assumptions, a lot of misinformation out there on social media as we, at, as we just, uh, discussed that often gets just, um, propagated by other people, um, making a lot of assumptions. But what we do want is to, um, make sure people understand their property taxes, um, where they go, how they're funded. And so what we did is we just started with a, um, FAQ page on our website. Um, this is a screenshot of it. It shows the, the dollar that, um, people, um, your represents your property taxes. And then we broke it down into, you know, what the, um, funding sources are. So 36 cents of that goes to the Pinellas County schools. 26 cents goes to the county. 23 cents of that dollar goes to the city of Dunedin. And 15 cents goes to, um, special districts such as PSTA. Um, then we also, um, wrote, and actually I think Nicole was a group effort with Nicole and finance. We wrote a, a, a really, uh, comprehensive blog post, um, which we call it Dunedin Insight, that we published in our, um, Dunedin News. And we also published that on social media. And it really was, um, an overview on understanding your property taxes and just really what that looks like. And there was a lot of really great information. And we actually are going to, we're going to publish that again this week because we are going to begin to kick off, um, more education and information this month. Um, and what we will be doing is continuing this multimedia campaign, um, starting this month. And these are some of the topics. We're going to try to break it down into, uh, topics that people understand, like how the taxes are calculated and used in Dunedin, where your tax dollars go, what city property taxes fund, and of course, the potential impacts of the proposed changes. At this point, we don't know what proposal will move forward. Um, but once we do, we will have a better idea of what those potential impacts are. So if eliminated, then what? So we have a framework of a, um, multimedia campaign using all of our tools, mainly our newsletter, of course, which, because we think we can, um, you know, that is really our best, our best platform for information from the city. Um, we know that there, that, that is where people opt in and we are growing the subscribers to that every month. We will also still use social media, but as I mentioned just a little bit ago, um, social media has become antisocial and we know that we will get a lot of negativity out there. Um, but we will be prepared to answer questions, um, very professionally and again, direct people to information and education. We will, um, look at, um, some potential impacts once we know what proposal will move forward so that we can get a little bit more granular and talk about the what if. So whether that looks like reduced services, we know the state doesn't have a plan right now to, um, replace these funds if property taxes are reduced or eliminated. So we're waiting to hear a little bit more information on that. Um, but we do know that there are four proposals that have moved forward as of December 25th and, um, we will just, uh, have a better idea at the end of the legislative session. As you can see the timeline, the session begins the 13th and it ends the 13th of March. So one of the recommendations besides using our digital, um, tools is to have in-person forums. These will be education information forums. We're looking to do three of those. We will schedule those late, late March, um, and into April and we will have the opportunity for residents to come and have true authentic person to person dialogue. We will, um, leverage our city experts. And then we were looking to do outside experts as well. Um, so having, you know, someone from the tax assessor's office, the fire chief association, FLC, possibly real estate, because we know that there could be potential implications for renters and owners. Um, there have been a lot more media stories in the last, I want to say the last month. In fact, I saw one last night and there were, you know, so we're going to be seeing more in the media. We want to do our best effort to, um, bring people facts and information that will directly impact them and also educate them before they go to the polls in November. So really that is the plan. I gave you, uh, an example of the framework. There's a lot of examples of content that we could create. Um, we are looking at doing this every other week. We don't want to over saturate. Uh, we want to be very thoughtful. We want to be very strategic and also very, um, very factual. Um, and also be prepared to answer those tough questions. So we will, um, you know, look to, uh, again, having links on our website where we can direct people for more information or FLC or the county. Um, I will be relying on less to help with some of the number side, the what ifs and the implications, what that means, whether that is reduced services, whether that are, you know, reduced hours of facilities like parks and recreation. We don't have answers to any of those things right now, but those will be what we will look toward as we have a better idea of what that proposal will be. So any questions? Well, great. Uh, thank you for that. I'm going to, uh, any questions for staff, Commissioner Sandberg? I don't have any today. I guess just wait going forward. Okay. All right. Thank you. Commissioner Gow? No questions. Thank you. Commissioner Degard? Thank you, Vice Mayor. I'm going to break the trend because the over under, uh, nevermind. Um, congratulations on, on, on, what I think is a very comprehensive and a logical approach. The problem I see is that this is a statewide issue and we'll pass or fail on a statewide ballot. Sixty percent. I understand. Yes. And, um, therefore it is important that we coordinate with our fellow municipalities, our counties in the state, what efforts are going into trying to get those into all rolling together instead of against each other? Yeah. Why don't you take that? Good morning, Commissioner Degard and Commission, uh, Commission. Um, uh, as you all are well aware, I know you each, you know, receive the Florida League of Cities, um, emails and, and information. Obviously at the, at the league, uh, level, um, they're, they're, um, covering this topic extensively. They're sending out information. Um, they're asking for, they've been speaking at, um, all of the committee meetings that these bills are being heard at. Um, and then obviously pushing that content down to all of the member cities. Um, the Florida Association of Counties is doing similar. Um, so the effort, you know, the, the directive following the Florida League's annual conference last year, um, in late summer was to, you know, go forth and start communicating where, what, what taxes are and what they mean, which is why that was drafted and put out. Um, I think as we get into session and we really start to see what's moving and what's not, we'll have more directed, um, content that we can really focus in on. Um, and we'll start to see a lot more municipalities pick up, um, that kind of a similar tactic or similar information sharing. Um, we've seen it a little bit with a few others that have posted, um, um, information or, or held forums already. Um, so we're, you know, we're, we're tracking it. We're in communication. We're following it. They'll be, obviously this is like number one priority for the league. I, I, you know, I know many of you will be in Tallahassee in a couple of weeks. Obviously this will be a big topic. We'll be discussing, um, as well all your, your fellow commissioners across the state. Thanks, Nicole. And great question. And I can, um, just from the communication side, um, I have, I asked the county at the December PIO call, um, if we were going to talk about it, it hasn't been on the agenda and they did let me open up the dialogue at that meeting. And actually, um, I believe it was, um, uh, city of safety Harbor, Olesmar and maybe Northport, um, started to, we started to have a dialogue, um, among us because we were sharing resources and we really believe that a unified approach is the best approach, right? So, um, a consistent unified approach. And, um, we have also put out the question on FMCA, our Florida municipal communicator association, which is our statewide association as to who is doing what. And there hasn't been a lot of, um, dialogue on there yet, but that was late in the year. So we're going to, we're going to kick it back up and, um, cause I am willing to share what we're doing. Um, I know others are willing to share and we just really believe to your point that a unified message, you know, I mean, every situation is going to be different, but there needs to be some, um, a consistent messaging. Thank you. That's a very good answer. Um, Nicole, you know, this probably better than anybody by the time we get in Tallahassee, where we know which horse is going to be in the lead. Um, this, uh, you know, this session, um, I say, I think, I feel like I say this every year, this session, I know you do. Um, uh, because the, you know, the, obviously what, what we, what we've seen thus far, um, is that it's moving in the house, but it's not moving in the Senate and everybody knows this. Um, so I really think that it really comes down to, you know, what the Senate is going to plan on doing. Um, so we, we, we may know. Um, and I think I have actually briefings with everybody that's going to Tallahassee, uh, you know, a couple of days ahead of time, obviously we will, you know, powwow when we get up there, uh, make sure you have all the right content for the, for the, the bills that we are seeing move so that you could have those really meaningful discussions, um, with our legislators. Um, but right now it's, everything is just up in the air, which I, we believe in talking, you know, internally is why we just haven't seen a lot of communication being pushed out from other cities. Um, they're kind of like, everybody's just waiting to see what everybody else does. Um, which, you know, we wanted to make sure we're taking a really proactive and we're prepared to respond and to get information out there. Um, so I think, you know, less has been, uh, running numbers on, you know, well, it started at all eight bills that had been filed by the house. Um, so we could understand what those impacts are going to, would be, um, should any of those pass. So, you know, we've got those figures. Now it's kind of trying to track down, uh, which one will or will not succeed. Um, and, and what's going to be used, um, as leverage really between the house and the Senate. So, well, of the five possible outcomes, one of the bills gets through or none of the bills get through making it, uh, five possible outcomes. Uh, I know where we would probably stand, but we have to stay in an education zone. We can't really go into a favorable or unfavorable approach to any of the bills. This is going to mean we're going to lead on you very heavily on where we can talk and where we cannot. I will be grateful for any advice and counsel, any step along the way. Absolutely. And I know our city manager has been talking with our city attorney, as have I, you know, we'll be sure that, you know, you have all the right talking points, um, when you can press go, not press go, so to speak. Um, uh, yeah, it's, it's, again, it, the legislature is having us jump through a lot of hoops. Um, we're having to spend a lot of time, um, putting everything together, um, looking at all those scenarios and those situations, but obviously we want to make sure we have the best and most accurate information that we can share with our residents to what those impacts mean for them because there will mean, there will be impacts to them. Uh, and that just needs to be clear. Uh, I need to pose my next question to our attorney. Speaking toward the boundaries of what we can do and can't do, my assumption is the following. As a city, we can inform and educate the electorate. As individuals, as elected commissioners, what are our boundaries? So you're going to be speaking, if you're speaking on behalf of the city, it's only an education standpoint. And so I'm going to caution you as far as individuals and going too far afield of that. As an elected official of the city, you're representing the city in, in speaking about this. And so you're going to educate and inform of what the, what the difference would be should this be, um, accepted, but not advocate. And so, um, I think it would be, um, there could be challenging issues if you separate, try to separate that into, well, as an individual, I want to say this versus what I am as an elected official. Thank you very much. Those are all the questions I've got. Thank you, Commissioner Degard. Um, so on slide three, I just need to get some clarification on that. Um, where we, okay, 18 million in ad valorem, um, and then law enforcement, fire and emergency down the line there. Um, those numbers that are associated with those five different areas that are those budget numbers, what's in the budget right now for, for those areas? Good morning, Mayor, Vice Mayor, the finance director. Yes, those are our budget numbers for 2026. Okay. All right. So yeah, that's okay. That, that, that helps. Um, so for Nicole, my understanding, so of the four house bills, um, the one that's our cleared ways and means is, uh, basically the one that increases the exemptions, the property, the homestead exemptions. Is that your understanding? And here's, here's the thing on this. It, this just, if, if you don't know the answer that that's fine, but I'm hearing that bill might actually go to the house floor, like in the next couple of weeks. And, and it, and it, well, may go to the house floor, but it, again, it's only been on the house side. So unless we have support, unless they have support in both houses, um, you know, that's great that the house passed it, I guess, and in their minds. But, um, again, I think they're going to use some, my feeling is that there's going to be some leveraging, um, when it comes to any Senate bills that they want, that the Senate wants passed or, you know, or the budget. Um, the other option here is if they can't come to any sort of agreement between the house and the Senate is that we're going to see a special session. I think everybody is, uh, prepared for two special sessions. Um, so, uh, this, uh, but again, if a special session is called by the governor to address this issue, the thought is that there will be a plan, um, shared at that point to say, this is what I want to do. And this is how I'm going to do it. Um, versus these bills, which are here, just make all these reductions, you know, put this money back in our, our, our residents pockets, but you know, there's no understanding or explanation of to what the impacts are down the road, whether it's increases in sales taxes, increases in fees and municipalities and counties, loss of service, um, all, you know, and on and on and down the road. So, um, there's, there's still a lot to be worked out. Yeah. And I, I appreciate that. The, um, any insight as to why there hasn't been a Senate companion bill? Um, off the record, I just not sure that there, because there's no resolution to many of these house bills. So it, it, you know, and, and if you watch, you know, the house, um, committees that they've gone through, um, a lot of the comments, uh, you know, from membership are asking, okay, well, what does that mean in relation to how are you, you know, what increases are we going to see in sales taxes? Um, who, you know, what services are going to be cut? Um, the Florida fire chiefs association, um, represented by, um, chief bars currently, um, I, he was at every committee meeting, you know, obviously talking on behalf of what that's going to look like for fire, um, what services can be cut or reduced. And so really kind of working together with, with that organization, with him to share those concerns, um, that, that our residents understand if there's a, if there's a change to that service, that means, you know, what's, what happens when you, when you dial 911. Um, so, you know, who's going to show up and how, and how quickly are they going to show up? And honestly, it was ironic because I feel like we had a lot of fires over the last two weeks, um, in the news. Um, so, um, so again, there's a lot of different components to this. Um, and we don't, we don't know what we don't, we don't know what the amount is, we don't know what the impacts are, but that's really why we want to be able to have those discussions in the public and, you know, and with our community to say, okay, if this is what we're dealing with, these are the things that you, you need to be aware, you know, could be impacted. Yeah, that, okay. I totally get that. Cause otherwise a Senate, you know, the Senate would be chasing all of the house bills for a companion bill and there doesn't, yeah, I gotcha. Yeah. I think they want to, they want a solution. Uh, you know, they don't, you know, I think the, you know, some of the comments we heard last year was, well, you know, okay, great. Sure. That puts money back in our residents pocket, but then do we want to be known as the state with the highest sales tax? Uh, you know, how's that going to draw in our, our, our tourists who obviously were a big tourism state. So it's, you know, there's, again, there's more questions at this point than there are answers. Yeah, sure. That, that totally makes sense. Now, I also saw the, there was another bill that basically would prohibit municipalities from reducing, uh, first responder budgets. Did that, did that go away or is that still out there? Uh, well, currently the, uh, law enforcement side of things that you're, uh, I guess it's, you know, you're not allowed to, you know, I'm going to say defund the police, right? Um, I think that there's, again, more questions than there are answers because the, that, that component only speaks to law enforcement. It's not speaking to fire and emergent and EMS. Um, so, you know, where, you know, how do you, how do you distinguish one from the other? Obviously they both play a really critical role. Will we see a bill that says you can't, you can't touch fire, you can't touch police? What is then that, you know, that is again, so many questions. Yeah, no, I didn't appreciate that. I, I don't, I asked the question only because, um, you know, I mean, it's, it obviously pertains to the complete battlefield, if you will. Right, right. So, and. That was part of the news story last night that I saw and they were actually, they were talking about the city of St. Pete. Um, I'll try to find the link and send it to everyone because they, they talked, they had law enforcement and fire talking about that, um, that piece of it as well. So, yeah. And they were all looking at the same, the same, the same question is the same conversation we're having right now, the city of St. Pete. So. Okay. Well, this will be interesting. Those are all the questions I have. Mayor, uh, over to you. Thank you, Vice Mayor. Um, so yeah, a couple of questions. Um, uh, first one, and mine will probably go to Les, uh, mainly. Um, Les, uh, when it comes to non-homesteaded properties, um, what's our percentage of, um, well, I'm sorry, homesteaded. What's our percentage of homesteaded properties in the city of Denny? We're, our homesteaded, our homesteaded properties are about 54% of our residential properties. And what is the statewide average homestead? I don't, I'd have to check on that. I'm not sure what, what the statewide average is. I'd like to know because I know quite a few communities are lower. That's for why. Maybe vacation rentals because that's a profitable business that in a lot of communities is allowed to be anywhere. I don't know. But I'm just kind of curious, of course, business too, um, because we're basically a veteran community. Um, and then, um, and we, so, uh, and maybe this is Nicole. Um, Nicole, just so I'm clear, I know that four of the, of the, uh, proposals went to Ways and Means. And so, and I don't really know for sure what happened after Ways and Means. So where is it in Ways and Means? Um, and, and clarify the four that are still in play. Uh, do you, do you have them pulled up? Yeah, there is actually, I mean, I'm kind of having to dig through the cobwebs of, of break and cold medicine right now. So I have to get back to you on some of this. Um, but the assumption before break, um, early in December, the second to last committee week was that all four had passed, um, the state affairs. And the assumption was that we would see all four go to Ways and Means. Only one was scheduled in Ways and Means. Um, and that also did pass. Um, I will get you the bill numbers and those impacts. I know we talked about it because that was pre, um, uh, I know you wanted that information for a discussion that you were having as well. Um, but I think that was in regards to kind of the insurance, uh, exemption, um, that bill. And I do not have the number off the top of my head. I apologize. So, so let me clarify. So, okay. And we don't know why the other three didn't go to the house for yet, or I'm sorry, to the Ways and Means. Yeah. And, and obviously with sessions starting next week, we'll start to see, you know, what's, what's being populated on the schedules. So we'll be keeping close track of that as well. And, and can you specifically tell me which one got approved by Ways and Means? I will have to pull that information and send it to you all. I mean, is that the 200,000 extra? I do. I do believe so. Jennifer Cowan, do you have that by any chance? I don't. Yeah. If I may, I believe that's the one. Yeah. I believe, I believe so too. But again, I, I, uh, did not pull all the bills prior to this, uh, to take a look again. And I'm trying to keep my mind factual here because what, because I, the name that they call it, I think is the, you know, property insurance offset or I don't know, but it's kind of funny because let's deal with insurance, right? Let's not put the burden of helping out property because in a sense, you're required now to have property insurance to get the $200,000. So I'm thinking, okay, well, if the problem is insurance, why are we doing this workaround? Um, that's kind of my thought process. Do you have any, any understanding of that? Um, well, I think that when you watch the committee meeting, I think a lot of the representatives understand insurance is the problem and they ask that question, why are we not dealing with that? But for whatever reason, you know, this is a priority of some leadership. Um, and this is what's being pushed forward, um, as a potential solution to putting, uh, money back in residents pockets. But I think ultimately, we're not really entirely sure that will be the case. Okay. So I'll go back to Les and Les, I'll ask you, have we calculated the impact of that particular, um, uh, proposal? And do we know the impact to the city of Dineen? Uh, that particular proposal, uh, I want to, uh, I reached out to the county assessor on this proposal and, uh, basically the county's, uh, county's office, you know, their position about two weeks ago was they don't believe this will go anywhere. They feel like it's putting too much burden, uh, to track, to track that activity and, and, and not to mention someone could have, someone could cancel their insurance the next day. In other words, you know, they feel like the administration to do that for, for counties statewide is, is, is, uh, almost impossible to be able to be able to manage, uh, that doing that. They were not able to give an estimate of, on that particular one at this time. I can follow up with him again, but a couple of weeks ago, they, they, it was too difficult for them to give an estimate, uh, because of the property tax piece of it. And that's two. Yeah. I mean, I guess we need to do a range of a calculation as this moves forward to understand, um, what that could mean. I mean, obviously I, I understand why the property group doesn't think it'll happen and I get that, but you know what happened and it happens in all of the, you know, happens with car insurance. Um, so I think that, you know, the fact that it's unmanageable won't help us. It won't help our citizens because we won't get the money that pays for services for our citizens. So I don't know how we do a range. I know we can't know who has property insurance, who doesn't, but we have to do a range of best case, worst case, um, assuming a certain percentage of people carry property. I don't know. I, I'll leave that to you to think through. Um, I do know, um, one of the four obviously is the worst case scenario, which there was just an editorial in the paper on Sunday, pushing, you know, again, they're, you know, pushing this kind of thing. And, um, and, and, and you have calculated if no homesteaded properties were, uh, had any property tax, so everything was taken away, what the impact of the city would be on that. And what is that number? If, um, the, uh, the house 201, which is the one that the governor is supporting, uh, for the, for the most part at this point, that, that one is, uh, taking homesteads away completely, that would reduce our property tax by pretty much our revenue pretty much by 50%. So we receive $18 million in property tax currently in our budget. And if that were to pass, our property taxes would be pretty much cut in half. And I'm going to ask you a question if you can't answer it now, but if we cut $9 million from our budget, um, you know, and, and again, I looked at some of the other backup detail that communications have given, which is great, but some of the stuff would be, I think things that we couldn't do in, you know, in some baseline, not too impactful property tax decreases. Um, but if we cut $9 million from our budget, my view of that is we would be closing, we would at least closing some rec centers, closing some parks, um, definitely cutting our maintenance teams that take care of everything in the, in, in our city, uh, you know, streets, you know, neighborhoods, um, uh, our parks, we have 37 parks. I mean, am I being overdramatic about that or would it be that, that bad? I would say that if, as Nicole mentioned right now, there's no plan to, to backfill this revenue. If, if there's no, no sales tax increase or any other proposal by the state to backfill this or no other, or no other way for our city to backfill it, uh, with, with a fee assessment or something, then, then we'd be looking at, you're right, major, I would say major service reductions, major, pretty much across the board. Yeah. Um, thank you. Um, so I don't want to underplay this. Florida League has said, speak out early, speak out often, don't be an extremist, but the proposals before us are, are very extreme from a service, uh, a service impact. I want property tax relief too, but I don't want my city destroyed. Um, so, um, let's see. Um, so if, uh, if, um, well, I guess I'll ask this question to Nicole, has the governor himself actually suggested a way that the property tax would be, um, supplemented, I mean, replaced? No, no. And I think that's been the conversation was that, you know, this, this concept came out as, you know, let's help our, help our residents, help Floridians, but there's been no solution. And, and so that's part of, I think maybe why the Senate's dragging their heels is, is whether they force that special session to, that would require a plan to be, uh, you know, brought forward. Um, everything, you know, from all the committee meetings that I watched, which are very exhausting, um, they, um, you know, the, uh, every comment by, by the bill authors or bill supporters have been, well, we'll figure that out in implementing. And so basically they're just passing the problem down by another year to potentially other legislators who maybe did, did or did not even want this. So there's been no solutions from any of the bill sponsors when they're being, you know, questioned in committee. Um, the, the consistent messaging has been, we'll handle that during implementing bill, which means we'll take care of that problem next year. Um, which I think to a lot of us who want answers is not, it's not an answer. Um, and so that, I think that there's been a lot of frustration from, from a lot of folks that, that we, that we need answers. Well, I certainly think it shows a disrespect to local government and local communities, actually not local government, local communities, um, who want to run their city. Um, um, so if, um, is there any other potential replacement that's other than sales tax or is that the main one being talked about? That's mayor, mayor, if I may, um, as Jennifer and I, um, we attend these monthly meetings and it's back to Sue's comment about a unified message. Uh, we attend, uh, the city manager consortium meetings, which, um, also include, uh, representation from the county administrator's office. And so, you know, we've been trying to, to, uh, to work on a consistent messaging. We've had input and, uh, presentations by, um, representatives of the Florida legal city. We had the sheriff come to the last meeting and discuss concerns from his perspective. Um, we've got one coming up this, this Friday where we'll have city manager, uh, presentations by the city of Kissimmee as well as, uh, winter garden, um, for some, again, we don't know how this is going to move forward, but, uh, there are discussions and considerations regarding revenue replacement, um, should these, uh, proposals pass, uh, for special assessments like fire assessments. And so there's lessons learned in, in communities where they've been successful and when, where they've failed. Um, so there is, this, there are discussions ongoing, uh, at the municipal and county level for, um, potential revenue offsetting opportunities, but again, that's subject to voter approval of those and, and how that messaging would be, uh, presented. Uh, so thank you for Jorge. Um, so, uh, the, in terms of specific sales taxes, I know that's been put forward as the main thing from, at the state level. Um, how would that work, Nicole? I mean, first of all, you know, I'm not sure anybody wants a high sales tax. I agree with everything that was said, but who would control the sales tax money? Or maybe that's less. Go for less. Well, sales, sales taxes is controlled by the state. I mean, I mean, the state collects it and the state allocates it. So they would control it. You know, they control our, we have our penny, our penny surtax that the state controls that and then they send it to the county and the county distributes it to the cities in Pinellas County, but it'd be controlled by the state. Yeah. So, so they would, I mean, they would have to bring forward a proposal to increase it the same way. I mean, and that, I mean, we obviously, that's not anything that we've seen. I mean, I've seen discussions from, um, anywhere from increasing it a few percentages to, you know, the most offensive bill, um, that, that joint resolution, the 201, the complete abolition would be, you know, doubling the sales tax to, to, um, replace that revenue, um, has been thrown out there as far as what that would look like. Um, but again, that's, that's been by outside parties. The Florida Policy Institute has, you know, put some numbers together as far as that goes, but, um, uh, again, no solutions, just concepts and what ifs at this point. But beyond the, you know, it'd be explosively high, um, our quality of life city would not be controlled by our definition of quality of life. You guys correct me if I'm wrong. It would be controlled by the state of Florida. Well, I mean, yeah, if that's, if, if services have to be impacted, if services will be impacted and then that does, you know, obviously the snowball effect of, of impacting our, our residents, what we can provide them, the types of things we can do. I know, you know, we, I fortunate to, you know, see representative Burfield at the, you know, the holiday parade. And I said, you know, this could not happen if this were to take place. This is the kind of thing that makes Dunedin, Dunedin, and it's important to our residents. But obviously, you know, those sorts of things they cost money to, to put on. And, um, you know, it's important for our community. So, you know, trying to, you know, frame it in a, in a real life situation, like this is what, you know, these are the, this is what you're talking about and how, you know, you talk about kind of, again, that snowball of you reduce services, you know, you know, businesses are, you know, then maybe starting to struggle. It's all, it's all, it's a whole long-term thing that I think that needs, should be considered when, when talking about these, these big, um, big, these big impacts to cities and counties. You may have said this, but, um, our, um, emergency medical services program, EMS, um, countywide, which is considered one of the best in the world, um, it is fully funded by property tax, right? Uh, we, what's the math here? Um, I mean, we spend about the same amount on fire and emergency, fire and EMS and law enforcement, um, as we get in property tax. So. Yeah, no, no, no, I'm talking about countywide EMS because we don't fund countywide EMS. I mean, we fund our first responders and they fund EMS. So, and my understanding is that all of EMS is, is property tax funded through the county. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So again, I, I just don't know how we get there, um, without decimating, um, important systems, including critical safety systems. But again, I know we're trying to, we don't know what the full thing will be. I do know, but I know four of these have gone ways and means four of them may or may not be headed for the floor of the, the, of the, uh, house quickly. And we have, I mean, so it's a moving train. I think we have to really work hard to keep our, our, uh, our residents educated about what it really means. Cause it, you know, obviously it always sounds good to your, to get a property tax break and, you know, we're going to have enough challenges with our own budget and have to make some cuts too. Um, because of, you know, just our own, our own system, you know, our own budget this year. So, um, my other question is, um, uh, well, I guess it's, uh, if I may just make this one comment, because I did pick up something from one of our state representatives and maybe you comment on this, uh, a little bit, uh, if you've heard something about this, uh, Nicole. Um, so when I was talking to one of our representatives, so you know who I mean, um, basically it came up about, well, there are some communities in Florida that aren't necessarily using property taxes the way they should in the state's opinion. Okay. And, um, and so, you know, kind of the whole bad actor, you know, take care of everybody. Um, but, uh, and so, the person was kind of dipping into this, are communities spending percentage-wise what they should in certain areas? Um, and I suggested to them, well, Dunedin may not look percentage-wise as high as a lot of communities because 25 years ago, or 30 actually this year, we contracted with the sheriff, the police, or to the sheriff, you know, kind of sheriff's office and made the hardest decision this community ever made in the most controversial decision to do the right thing and save two to two and a half million dollars a year. And, um, so we already did the hard work and thus it gave us money to put into quality of life. So have you heard any talk about making judgments or trying to, you know, shoehorn communities into certain light, you know, lanes of expense? Uh, I, I'm not, I don't know that I can speak to that directly. I, I, we have heard though there has been, you know, discussion from both the Senate and House, uh, representatives as far as consolidating services and that could be a way to save money. But like you've stated, we've already done that. So yes, that might work for some of these smaller communities, whether it's in Pinellas or otherwise, where yes, they could see a savings, um, if they, if they did something to that effect. And I think they were speaking to, you know, specifically to, you know, smaller communities that maybe still have their own police or, or their own fire and whether going to a county wide or shared system would help, you know, decrease those expenses. And in some cases, you know, you could say, well, yeah, you could do that in that community or that County or that city, but we've already done that. So you're taking, you know, we can't make, we can't create those savings that you are going to expect to see in other places. I think this is the problem with the one size fits all kind of solution. It's, it's not, you know, it's not, and we see it time and time again, where they become aware of a, of a problem or a misappropriation or misuse of funds or whether, whatever it may be in some specific area of the state. And that's what drives this decision to say, well, we need to get rid of this thing, or we need to change this law, or we need to put this in place. And then the ripple effect is that we then have to deal with it. We see that time and time again. Um, so I think, uh, you know, you've got, again, a lot of different things at play, um, for us, we, you know, when we go and have those conversations to them, you know, we can only speak from our own experience and we can say we made those decisions because we wanted to, you know, we, we needed to save the community. You know, we've saved the community X amount over the longterm. Um, but that's just not something that we can do here. Um, thank you. I don't have any more questions, but thank you for putting up with my length of my, my time. Sorry. Thank you, mayor. It was very informative. Um, I am going to open it up now to public input and seeing none, hearing none, I'm going to bring it back to the commission for final comments. Commissioner Gao. Thank you, um, vice mayor. And thank you, Nicole. Thank you, Sue. And thank you, mayor, for, um, your long list of questions as you're very informative, great conversation. Um, if I were during comments, if I were to ask a question, it might be somewhere in, in the framework of what is the deadline for seeing something on the ballot? You talked about one special session, maybe two. Is there, is there a time when it's a go or no go for the, for the state? I mean, if I've obviously, if they don't pass anything during regular session, they can call, you know, he can call, the governor can call two to three special sessions, um, to try to get this worked out. And those are typically, you know, a couple of weeks, um, of a special session. So we can be into, and it depends on when he calls it, if he calls it right after session, you know, it ends or whether he wait, you know, there's, again, there's a lot of things up in the air that we just don't know. And if, and if he calls it, um, and they don't come to a conclusion and they don't agree to anything, then he's, you know, there's no, there's no. So there is no. And I, I'm going to. They can also, it depends on, so for the, depending on when the special session happened, could direct which ballot it's on. So right now, because we're in the current session, we're dealing in January, which will end in sometime in March. Um, if something were to pass, it would be on the, I think they're directing it to the November ballot. Um, generally the, um, supervisor of elections, I want to say has to have ballot language by like August or September. So they generally know what the language is, but if he called a later session for some reason, couldn't make it on that ballot, he could always direct it to be on the next year's. Okay. And that's, thank you, uh, city attorney, because that's kind of what we're looking for. Is there a point where we can just kind of know from a natural timeline when you consider language, what ballot it might show up on, whether it's the 26th or the 27th? Well, that. They will normally identify it in the bill as to what ballot. Right. But, but the timeline would have to play a role in that. Correct. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Right. And, and with all, again, with all of these that we've heard, um, the implementing bill would come the next legislative session. So even if this passes, then how it's going to be implemented will be considered in 2027. So, you know, not to say that buys us time by any means, but, um, you know, it's kind of like they're putting the cart before the horse or whatnot. Okay. Okay. Thank you for, yeah. If, if I were to ask a question, that would have been maybe an answer that I was looking forward to. So thank you. If I were to answer that. Yeah, but I, I, you're right. There are a lot of balls in the air. Um, a lot of, um, juggling going on, maneuvering. Uh, so just thank you for the work that you've done and just keep us informed going forward and what we can do. Thank you. Commissioner DeGuard, I know you wanted another question, so we'll make this final questions and answers. Great. Um, Nicole, I'm going to throw you a curveball and you've had a few today, so I appreciate all your efforts. Um, when was the last time there was a referendum requiring 60% approval to pass in the state of Florida? Last session, uh, last ballot. No, it was the medical, uh, recreational marijuana. And abortion. Mm-hmm. Okay. That's all I had. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner DeGuard. Uh, Commissioner Sandbergen. I mean, obviously we're just going to have to play this where it lands and, uh, you know, it, I guess I, I don't have any problem moving more costs to our tourists and, uh, maybe that's selfish. You know, uh, if we can help the, or one of these bills, or is this talking about completely eliminating property taxes? 100%. Is there any other states in the country that have zero property taxes? I mean, I, I, I forgot we're not taking more questions. It's getting so late, but, uh. I mean, I, I'm, I'm, I don't, I would, we would have to get back to that, to that information. But I think that there, you know, there are, I could, we could say there are very few states in the union that don't have an income tax and you want a couple, no income tax with no property tax. I don't believe that happens anywhere else. Yeah. Okay. Um, there are other states talking about eliminating property taxes right now. So Illinois, Kansas, North Dakota, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. So I think all of those states have income tax. Okay. All right. I, you know, like I said, it, obviously we're going to have to figure out something and, uh, you know, this, this city will survive. We're ran by good people. It may not be, uh, we're as fun as it's been, but, uh, we're going to have to survive and, uh, I looking forward to getting to Tallahassee and learning a lot more before we go. So I'm good. Thank you, mayor. Commissioner, according to a Google, there are no, there currently are no states with no property taxes. Thank you, commissioner Sandberg. Um, you know, I, you know, I, I think we've all got the same questions and unfortunately this is, they're, they're just, those answers are not available right now. And, uh, that's, that makes it very hard to plan. And, you know, I would say that, um, what we need to do now, and I, getting back to the, the topic of the, the campaign, the, uh, property tax campaign, uh, I, I think it's a solid plan. Um, I think, uh, that the engagement with the community is going to be all about promotion. And I view that as being an all hands on deck here. We all have a role in this. And, uh, I, I most certainly know that, uh, there, I've been asked several questions on this and I, I keep saying, well, you know, I think it's too soon to speculate. It's too soon to, to even guess at an answer. But I said, the city is leaning forward to make sure that the public is aware of the, you know, first of all, the status of it. And then second of all, obviously the impacts. And so I guess for my colleagues, um, you know, you know, it's, we're, we're, we're going to be part of this equation with regards to how we promote this because getting the information out for this particular issue is extremely critical because in absence of information, you know, people just start making stuff up. And, uh, I think it's important that we get ahead of that. So anyway, that's my comment and greatly appreciate the presentation. Solid plan. And, uh, I'm looking forward to it. Thank you. Um, mayor over to you. Okay. Well, I have no comments. Just kidding. I have comments. Um, so look, I'm not trying to be, you know, over extreme here, but I do think we've got some pretty extreme things on the board and we should not understate the facts of those extreme, uh, those extreme proposals. Um, they could very well get to the table. They could be very well debated. Um, you know, uh, when we talk about, uh, uh, we'll survive, um, you know, I've been, I've been in public service for 40 years. I'm very proud of that. And I, um, and I only came back to be mayor because I love the city and I love the services we have. So I think we have to be honest. We, you know, hopefully it'll come in with something reasonable as a, as a, uh, different form of how we do our, our property tax. Um, you know, Florida, Florida in a sense has never had an income tax. Um, we have relied on the property tax. Um, but that's a whole nother discussion. Um, there has to be some funding for local government and also local government will become homogenous governments all through Florida. Now, Florida has been successful as a community who has defined who we are by quality of life. Um, people have run for election and tried to go against that stream and they've lost, um, because we've defined who we wanted to be. And so if we don't have enough, uh, dollars to fund some of the important amenities that have become normal for our citizens, I would suggest that that will affect, um, the people that people want to stay here, people who want to live here, visitors that want to visit here. And at the heart of it will be jobs and economic development. And all of that is what makes the community thrive. Um, so, you know, this is a moment where, um, we, we have to pay attention because I think it's, uh, they can get thrown around loosely because nobody wants to pay property taxes, but, but, but people do want the things they become normalized to. And that doesn't mean we can't do better. We're going to have big challenges in our budget to make sure we're keeping things affordable, even with what we have. Um, because we've got work to do and we know our staff's already looking at things that we're going to have to really be tighter on, probably cut. We know we're going to have to cut some things. Um, but a plan that doesn't have a plan doesn't help us, uh, protect our citizens. And, uh, now I, I will, uh, go back to, um, what, uh, vice mayor said, but I think you're absolutely absolutely right, vice mayor, that, um, you know, this is about the communications plan. And, um, I feel it passionately, but the reality is it's really important that we help our citizens understand. And then they, they can do what they want. I mean, obviously I'm always for that. I care what our citizens feel. Um, so how, so to the extent we can watch these bills as they come forward and keep that education plan going, uh, Sue, I always, you know, you guys do a great job and you do a great job because you break it down and make it understandable and do it in a way that people are going to see it and hear it. So, um, I think, uh, you know, the individual forums or whatever you call them, I think are good ideas. And there's no question there's potentially some great stuff that will come out of these no matter what. Um, I just don't want the extreme situations that there's no answer and no supplement for it to happen at the state level that we, that we're not going to be able to handle. Um, but, uh, that being said, it's about educating our citizens to what is a reasonable property tax reform that will get them what they want overall in the big picture. So, um, on that note, I'll, I'll, I'll stop talking. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mayor. Well, we have, uh, we're reaching the close of our workshop here. Um, anybody have anything good for the order? Absolutely. Go ahead, Commissioner Gardner. Thank you, Vice Mayor. Great discussion. I think that one of the things that we're not talking about is bang for buck. We're trying to get that out there. But the other thing that we're not talking about is burden of taxes by state. Nobody's done that really in this discussion. And if you take a look at that and just go online, put in tax burden by state, you find out that our stack tax burden by state as a percentage of personal income is 6.49%. That puts us in the bottom of the list relative to burden. So our residents are in the state of Florida are paying less than 46 other states. We're 47th. That's important to remember because when they try to cut something, they don't want to cut the bone. They want to cut the fat. Well, there's just not a lot of fat here to cut. And we've all suffered from the cost increases, the cost increases of insurance, the cost increases for utilities. They're all there. And there's a lot of anger about the cost of living and affordability. But let's not put people waiting an extra 10 minutes to get an ambulance to their front door on an issue like this. That's all I have to say. Thank you, Commissioner Degard. And Mayor, did you have any closing remarks for the session here? No, I mean, I just appreciate what Commissioner Degard said. And yeah, no, I just want to thank you, Vice Mayor, for running the meeting. And I'll see you all Thursday. All right. Well, thank you for that. And with that said, we are adjourned. Thank you.