First, come back to their seats, please. Commissioner Harriot, I'm going to go ahead and call this workshop for Monday, February 9th into order. I'm going to have the city clerk do the roll again, please. Commissioner Caldwell? Here. Commissioner Harriot? Here. Commissioner Howington? Here. Commissioner Novick? Here. Commissioner Santiago? Vice Mayor Villa-Vasquez? Present. Mayor Villa? Here. Thank you. All right. This time, we're going to go ahead and do the pledge. If we can please stand, then I'll ask the Vice Mayor this time to lead us in the pledge. Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. All right. At this time, I'll pass it over to Jordan. We're going to enter a discussion. Jordan? Good afternoon, Mayor, Commissioners. So this evening, we're here to talk about Chapter 66. And from staff, we have myself from Planning, we have Danny Ron from Code Enforcement, and we have Phyllis Wallace in the back from Public Works. So just a little background on how we got here today. Chapter 66 of the City Code governs parking and vehicle regulations, and it was originally adopted in 1999. This chapter has been amended to address changing conditions, land use patterns, and enforcement challenges. In September, the City Commission adopted Ordinance Number 23-2025 and directed staff to conduct a comprehensive review of Chapter 66 to improve clarity, enforceability, and consistency with state law, and to incorporate resident feedback. Following the adoption of this ordinance, residents raised concerns regarding certain provisions. And in response, the Commission requested that enforcement of Section 66-16 and 66-18 be suspended and directed staff to include a traffic consultant in the review. Tonight's meeting is a direct result of that direction and is intended to provide contacts and support Commission discussion before any future amendments are considered. The workshop will be led by our consultant, Edward, from the Cordino Group, and will include a review of prior changes made to the ordinance, key planning and operational considerations, and a preliminary discussion of potential options. Staff is seeking feedback and policy direction. And at this time, I'll turn it over to Edward from the Cordino Group. Thank you, Jordan. Everyone hear me okay? Thank you, Jordan. Mayor, Commissioner, thank you for having us this evening. My name is Eddie Ning. I believe I've met most of you on other projects before. With me, if you haven't met Diana Weib. Diana is one of our senior traffic engineers. So part of what we wanted to do when we were asked to look at Chapter 66 was not only tackle it from a planning standpoint, but also take engineering into account. So kind of take a very multifaceted look along the lines of both that and the planning engineering. I, myself, was a community development director at another city, and I was also in charge of code enforcement for that city as a community development director. So, you know, in speaking with Danny and the rest of your staff, we incorporated considerations of trying to understand, hey, you've got these rules, you will have to enforce them. And certainly, you know, there's a lot of different factors that go into play when we think about parking regulations review. We've done it for a number of other cities. Myself, personally, for not only the city, I was a community development director for, but a few others. And we appreciate the trust you have in us to guide you through our thoughts this evening as we see further direction. And I'm trying to change this, but I guess it's not going. It's probably because the laptop is... Right. Hmm. Good. Yeah. Let's see. Ah, thank you. I guess I need to point that way. So we have the agenda that, you know, reflects in the discussion item. We'll go through introduction, a view of prior changes, look at traffic engineering as crash reviews. We did pull what we call Signal 4 data. Signal 4 is a repository of all the crash data within the state. And so it is accessible through our traffic engineers. We look at planning regulatory considerations, the operational considerations, and the trade-offs. I'll have a little discussion on those. And from a review of some of the potential chapter 66 edits and discussion of options. Where we're looking for those from that regard is more direction from the mayor and commission on how we should help you in proceeding a path forward. Next slide, please. So what is considered for parking regulations? Parking regulations are considered by your peer community for a variety of reasons. They can be to ensure community character. Sometimes, you know, parking on the street, particularly with commercial vehicles overnight, isn't exactly, you know, desirable. There's also about meeting parking demand. This is where we have encountered where clients who have gone through and said, hey, we want to restrict parking to certain times and so forth. Something that's often not considered or considered after the fact is clearance for traffic. You can't block fire, you can't block fire, ambulances, and being able to ensure that emergency vehicle services can access the property, can be affected by the parking. Safety then is obviously a consideration, but also sometimes not the way you would also think. Besides the access issue, there's also consideration of, hey, does parking this large vehicle close to the corner provide a sight issue? Does parking a vehicle, such as a fire truck, within 10 feet of a building provide for a fire issue down the line? Does the reason why the Florida building could provide for that clearance? And, of course, there's one aspect that, you know, with parking that I find that, in my experience, is also overlooked is enforceability. Sure, the rules are great and all, but are they enforceable? How much does it cost to enforce? Does it make sense from a community standpoint? I'll do so. Next, please. So, in review, what we did with the review and working with staff is review the prior changes to begin with. We know they were adopted in October 2025. There's an under-enforcement moratorium. There were a lot of the revised definitions in there, some of which were really designed to streamline definitions in line with the state or in their different portions of the regulations that were like, hey, you should be defining vehicles a certain way. We do understand that restricted parking window right-of-way, including the swell, although there are some changes that might need to be revisited just from a Scrivener standpoint as we look through items or from a definition standpoint. It did clarify the rules in commercial parking and made updates to RV parking rules. Ultimately, we understand what you had tried to put forward as a mandate to only really park in the driveways and not the front yards or in the right-of-way. And our understanding as well was that, why did it change? Well, you had obstructed sight lines. You had damage to drainage systems and swales, which is costly because you have to go back and re-areate the swales that are compacted. There were blocked sidewalks, and it affected your mail delivery routes. And, of course, when you park a certain way in areas within the swales and within right-of-way, you could, you know, as a consequence of that compacting of the swales, it can lead to erosion. It can lead to a pooling of water, and that, in turn, also affects the maintenance of the roadway as the edges can crumble. And so we've also seen these in other communities as well. Next, please. So I'm trying to go over to Diana to go over the crash items. Diana, you want to sit here and use that, and use this mic. Good afternoon, everybody. Diana White with the Corradino Group. As Eddie mentioned earlier, we just not took a look into the planning side, but also into the transportation and the engineering side of the whole parking. With that in mind, we completed a review of the crash history of the entire city with emphases on collisions with on-street parking vehicles, and when I said on-street, meaning on the public right-of-way. So that was done for the past three years, January 1st, 2023 to December 31st, 2025, and I'm just going to give you some numbers. So what we have, what we found was that 68 documented crashes involve a vehicle with an on-street parking vehicle. Out of the 68, 11 crashes occur with delivery of trash collection vehicles. Why do we divide delivery and trash collection vehicles? Because these are your operations that only last two to three minutes. These mean your FedEx, your USPS, your trash collections, your Amazon deliveries. And then out of the 68, we have six crashes, which is only 9%, that occur with emergency vehicles, meaning fire trucks, law enforcement, ambulances. I'm also calling them school buses because they do need to operate and because they're larger than your normal average vehicle. When we completed that crash history review, two segments popped out on the local streets, which was the Fernando Drive and Kettering Road. So those two streets, looking into Google Earth and kind of looking at the areas, it's one of the newer areas that are being developed just because the pavement looked newer. But they do look a little narrow and compared to other streets that you have, your local streets. So I just wanted to bring those up because those two had two or more on-street parking crashes out of that. Next slide. So one thing, some of the things that we could consider based on the crash review, it's one, what's the pavement width? What's the pavement width of the roadway? Do we have enough pavement width in order for us to have a clear pathway for a vehicle that's driving? Or in a two-way street, do we have enough for a two-way street? Another thing we need to consider is driveway separation. Why? Because we looked that when the driveway starts to close to each other especially and they're not offset with the street that it's parallel to it, one in the north and one of the south, a lot of the crash accidents were backing into vehicles that were already parked on the street. Another thing that we need to look at is the commercial vehicles parked overnight on local roadways. There were a few incidents where commercial vehicles were parked on the streets and they were hit. Clearly, they were hit and run just because of the nature of the damage that they had. But it shouldn't have been parked on the street. However, there were a few cases that they were looked into like that. Another thing that we looked into is compliance with side distance triangles. There were a lot of vehicles that were parked on the street, but they were blocking the visibility of all their cars as they were backing out. Especially like on the corner lots or on the corner, it's all a curve. So those are things that should be looking to it. Another thing that we could look into as well would be the estimated cost of the reported property damage. And even though these damages that are reported for property damage on the crash reports are presented by the police, it's not just the property damage. It's also the time and effort that people take to report these. So these are only the ones that were reported. There could be hundreds more that were not documented just because of time and effort. For instance, you know, if there is a school bus, they never made it to its final destination just because the damage was so significant. And I don't know if you can see, it's on the bottom side. It's actually from one of your reports, that school bus actually hit a car that was parked really close to the right-of-way. And with that in mind, I just give you some food for thought for future discussions. If you have any questions at this moment, you know, I could answer any questions at the end. Commissioner Harriot. Thank you, Mayor. Thank you guys for the presentation and for coming tonight. We're not done. I understand. I look forward to the rest of it. On this part, though, what are your comments on separating on-street parking from right-of-way parking? Is there a negative impact if you limit parking to on the pavement versus the right-of-way off of the pavement? Well, at this point, we're just exposing the facts. This is what we found, and that's why we're here today so we can have a better discussion about it and which direction we should go. But we're open to suggestions, and we want to hear from the public and hear from you guys as well. Have you noticed anything in the crash data that might indicate that primarily the accidents happened when vehicles were parked on the pavement versus on the swale? We had a different crash review for the swale area. I do have those numbers there. So they were separated. So these are specifically on-street parking, public right-of-way. The swale area, there were a few, and that's where we also need to focus on the pavement with. That's where I'm bringing the pavement with as a topic of review. Fantastic. Thank you. Commissioner Knobbeck? What's the purpose of this data? Because 68 crashes in three years is nothing. It's minuscule. It's nothing to set a policy by. It's nothing to drive a plan. 68 is an insignificant number in three years. There's 68 vehicle crashes in the city probably in a week that involve a myriad of other factors. The data is what you've plugged in. There's nothing in there about contributing factors to the crash. There's nothing about time of day that's in the crash. Was the driver impaired? All those incidents were taken out. Anybody that was driving under the influence, anybody that was driving, reckless driving, those were taken out. My question is, what is this data driving? Certainly 68 is not enough to drive a policy in three years. And I think that's part of why we had to present the data. I think, Commissioner, you've hit on a point. If you're going to look at the data, well, 68 isn't that much. Does it throw us some lessons here and there? Absolutely, because if it happens in one place and it's severe enough or something you don't want to happen, sure, you can look at the policy. But then you also have the opposite side of that, which is, is this an appropriate response or do we need to think about something else? I often go to some of my clients and ask, are you using a sledgehammer to kill a fly? And, you know, sometimes you have to look at the data for what it is, whether it's significant or not, and then really just try to go to policy approach from there. What we're trying to do is set the table by saying, hey, this is 68. And I think you hit on the right point, like it's not necessarily significant, are there less to drive? Yes, but then, you know, that's the other consideration too, right? Now, a slide or two back, part of the consideration, something that was on there. Okay, Fernanda Drive and Kettering Road. So we've clustered some information in that area. So there may be something particular in that area that we need to drill down into. But I just, 68 is an insignificant number in the grand scheme of things. I mean, we look at, too, and Diane, correct me if I'm wrong, that from, let's go back to that other slide where the two drives right there. I want to point out what Diana has put forward, which was, hey, these right away we're seeing two or more. I mean, look, it's not really a common occurrence for you to see parked vehicles be hit. I mean, it's a giant block out there. Like, it's not exactly like, you know, something small or something. You're hitting a parked vehicle. It's not moving. It's not something that's a common occurrence. But what we do see from the ones where you do see it more than once or multiple times are on right-of-ways, like Fernanda, which were the newer ones with more narrow right-of-ways. And so you're going to imply a lesson from that then is width and clearance is important. It's important because when you narrow the width, you may run the chance that you will have more incidents occur. And so you're trying to think about policies where you are either putting something on the road or not. Well, the policy might consideration there might be, hey, to what degree we think about the width of the right-of-way. It might be okay if you have, you know, a four-lane road and you have parking on the side. But if you have a more narrow right-of-way where you have one lane of traffic each direction and much less maneuverability, maybe that does change the calculations a bit, right? Thank you, Mayor. And we came from a total of 351, and we reviewed every single one of them, and this is where we came down. That's where we took out. You're driving under influence, somebody driving recklessly. And there's a lot of those that you need to take into consideration that are probably not reported because they're insignificant or they were not, they were hit and run, and nobody had any knowledge that it was impacted. Commissioner Caldwell? So it's just a number. Yes, you had said in your preview here that there was possibly 100 or more that weren't reported. Would that include incidents of close-bys or kids that ran out behind vehicles or anything of that nature that was parked on the side of the road, possible injuries? As far as this, there were just a few injuries, nothing. It was actually classified as possible injuries. Okay. Nothing that was an incapacitated injury or fatalities. Their possible injuries was actually the one with the school bus. They were saying that there were six kids inside of the school bus. But it's one of those that because of the horizontal curve of the roadway, that vehicle was parked, and the driver did not see that vehicle parked. So it hit the side of the bus. When you did your study, did you get numbers or counts on how many vehicles on a certain road were parked in the right of way or on the paved areas? No, that's a different study. We're talking about the annual average daily traffic. That's a different kind of tools that we get to do those kind of studies. All right. Thank you. There's also some data available online. If we need to do that, we can pull it from online data. Okay. Thank you. Commissioner Herriot. Thank you, Mayor. I think piggybacking off of what Caldwell's comments were, did you guys also look at pedestrian vehicle interactions? No. We took those out because we were strictly dedicated on street parking. But we could always pull those out. The data has been pulled. All right. Okay. Because I think there's also some weight, and I don't know what weight it would belong, but some weight to right-of-way parking and on-street parking that would increase the pedestrian interactions. If somebody does, say, run out, you know, a kid's playing in the yard, runs out, the driver can't see them because they're running right in front of a parked car, then- Or if the vehicle is blocking the sidewalk. Yeah. And I don't know what that magnitude is. You know, to Commissioner Novick's point, 68 does not seem like a significant amount. But what would it take to look into the pedestrian interactions? The data has been pulled, so it would just be a matter of a few days just looking into it. Would we be able to identify whether any of those pedestrian interactions were impacted by on-street parked or right-of-way parked vehicles? If it was documented by the officer, yes. Okay. Because we do read the narrative of every single crash report. And though that, you know, that's an important note there, we wouldn't document it by the officer, we won't be able to, you know, derive. But though that happened, I thought we were able to be able to look at it and isolate that. Vice Mayor Avila Vasquez. Thank you, Mayor. Did you do any studies as far as going out of the regular roads like cul-de-sacs and stuff like that? Everything that was pulled was from the entire city. And then from there, we took out anything that was state-maintained, anything that was commercial, not commercial, that was county-maintained, that didn't have any on-street parking. So, yes, there was, I think there were a few in a cul-de-sac. But I pulled those out just because of the width of the cul-de-sac. There were at least three. Three with incidences? Three crashes. In a cul-de-sac? In different cul-de-sacs. But, yes, I can probably get those. I would like that. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Commissioner Howington. Thank you, Mayor. I think it would probably be interesting to see the numbers for the full number of accidents. Out of the 350, it seems like that's about one every three days, if you extrapolate it over the three-year period. How many of those are falling in the communities with the narrow roadways and curbs? Because we have a lot of off-street parking that's on the right of way, and so it seems to reason that those streets are probably not going to have as many instances of accidents as we would see in the newer neighborhoods with curbs that have the narrower streets. Because I believe our minimum street width is 24 feet, because I believe our minimum street width is 24 feet. Is that accurate? Yes, for residential and the new RPUDs. Okay, so if it's 24 feet and we have people parking on both sides of the road, essentially we've created a one-lane road. And so I'm curious to see out of the total grouping of the 350 accidents that were reported, how many are on those streets versus the other streets that have right-of-way parking and things like that. The 350 incidents, it was citywide, so that includes your state road, mountain streets, and your county roads, and your driving under influence crashes and reckless driving that we took out. Is that something that you also would like to see? I mean, I would like to see, because I would like to know, are we seeing a problem in the newer communities? Because some of the older streets are much wider and probably are not seeing as many incidences as we would see on narrower roads. Speed would be a factor. I know that I live in one of those communities that has the curbs, and we've had people clocked doing over 50 miles per hour on these streets right next to Spirit Elementary. So I'd like to know what the incidents of accidents are. And I know that I've seen some in my neighborhood that don't get reported because somebody just takes off a mirror or something, and it's not enough to report it. I think there are two important points there, that not all crashes are definitely reported by folks. There are some things that we would expect to hear from an anecdotal standpoint that would supplement this information. In terms of Signal 4, we have what we have from the official databases of crash reports in the city. That's kind of hard to go by, but it doesn't just count what we might hear anecdotally. As to the WISC, we're looking at a little further, Commissioner. It is a valid point. It's also why we had brought out those particular roads, because we looked at it like, well, like I was mentioning, you know, it's not like two cars trying to avoid each other. You're hitting something stationary. It's not as common as the current as it should be, as you would think. So the fact that it's happening in more than once in the same location is for us, you know, a sign that, hey, maybe we need to look at this a little bit more, because, you know, beyond the fact that what's reported, there might be what's not reported as well. And to think about that a little further in the policymaking process with what we would suggest to you. And before I turn it back to Eddie, the 351 was just focused on on-street vehicle parking, not on your side swipes, back-end traffic, rear-ends, because those were part of a larger, and I was on the thousands. Okay. So there was a larger population, but then you narrowed it. I narrowed it, and I narrowed it, and I narrowed it, so just for the focus of this presentation, yes. So Fernanda, obviously Fernanda Drive is in an HOA. It's an open HOA, but it's an HOA. Ketering is not. Is that correct, Jordan? I want to make sure. So it is also in an HOA. So there's some reason to believe that maybe, and I don't know if this is something that instead of doing a blanket policy on all residents, which I'm not honestly for, something that we're essentially penalizing residents for developments that are coming in pretty much cookie-cutter, and they're getting to do smaller streets. I mean, isn't it more logical to come up with some policy where they allow one-side street parking, like I've seen in other cities, where they're able to park on one side of the street, and that's it, versus blanket pushing in a policy that's going to affect a lot of other people. To be fair, I agree we should not be parking on swells, but there's also parts of the city where they're really, number one, there's not a swell, and number two, there's not a real need for a swell. So, Mayor, this is all great conversation, and I think a lot of these questions and answers will be answered as we go forward in the presentation. So may we continue? Yeah, go ahead. Okay, thank you. We probably have about a dozen or so slides more. I think it's great that you're asking these questions down there because we have some of the considerations as we go through. You know, the next three slides are pretty much going to have the same text on the side, but I wanted to kind of think through and see, because I went through and, you know, I've driven through our community before, obviously, because I'm working on a project for Deltona, but I also took it from an aerial standpoint because sometimes what you see on the road is different than what you see from the air. And so, you know, when we look at here, what do we see that are always considerations when you think about on-street parking? Well, this pointer, let's look at Falmouth. It's curved, right? So just like in Diane's example before, when you have curves and you have come and come around a curve, well, you had a parked vehicle there. How did that influence, you know, what was your line of sight as a driver? That consideration is important here. Let's look at the fact that some of these streets have sidewalks, like on Superior. Well, you know, how much, how wide is that whale? Sometimes whales are four feet, sometimes they're five feet. You know, when I have to do corridor design and I've done some major corridor projects and thinking about how we allocate space in a right-of-way, I don't want to adventure what I have to assign for a parking space. I have to assign at least eight and a half feet to nine feet. And so, and that's so I can have, make sure that, you know, things can pull out, pull in. I consider curb and gutter, you know, depending on the type. It's, you know, one and a half foot, but, you know, and obviously there's going to be variations, right? But generally at the rural, I want to make sure I have eight and a half feet. Not all your swells have eight and a half feet between the sidewalk and the right-of-way. And that's a consideration there. We go to the next slide. Of course, you know, what do I have to consider? Well, I like to use an example of when I go home to see my dad. I grew up in Rhode Island, and I grew up in residential neighborhoods, just like, you know, where, you know, single-family residential neighborhoods. I really hate it when the neighbors across the street park in front of a dad's driveway because we have an hour right-of-way. And I really struggled getting my mom's minivan out of the driveway, and so did my dad because he's a terrible driver. And so I say that as an example. I'm making fun of my dad, but it points to the realities of something that you and your neighbors may face, and that is if someone's parking across the street, how does, you know, being able to maneuver out of your driveway get impacted? The other thing to consider is if I need to park on the street and not block someone's ability to even turn out because I want to see what's coming if I'm backing out of the driveway, those driveways are really close together. And when you have driveways that close together, there's an access management aspect where you want the amount of visual clearance on the street so that when you're backing out of your driveway, you can see oncoming traffic, even if it's slow. And that's kind of difficult, would be difficult here, especially with a narrow right-of-way. Next, please. And, of course, you know, we go back to thinking about in our community, where can you park, right? If you're not parking on a street, then you have to think about parking in the driveway. Well, we know the history of Deltona and how it developed. We know that our folks, our single-family houses, there's not exactly a lot of driveway space, and there's a lot of ain't there. At most, some of these houses can only fit one to two vehicles. Let's then go to the next slide. This is statistics. This is Deltona. So, Deltona, you know, when you look at, you know, data that's available from the census, auto per household, 1.9. That's average. There are going to be houses that are going to have more, they're going to have a little less. But we have 1.9. There are going to be houses here that have at least two vehicles or more. And, in fact, 14%, close to 14% of all residences in Deltona have more than two vehicles. So, if you have a rule that you can't park on a street, then you have to kind of figure, okay, for those significant portion, and it's not like that's in every community, but you've got at least 14% of your community household which have at least two vehicles or more. That's a significant amount that in policymaking, you could have to go back and consider, where do I put, do I allow them to expand their driveways if they can't park on the street? Do, what about guest parking, right? There's no guest parking less because their own vehicles are already there. So, when friends and family visit, where are they going to go other than loading? And so, you know, in my neighborhood where I live, not in Deltona, my neighbors end up parking on my swell, and they borrow each other's driveways because we really can't, you know, we have a narrow right away in front of my house. And that's the reality of where I am. We can't block the traffic, but I'm saying, putting this forward because from a policy standpoint, it should always be a consideration. If you can't, if you don't allow folks to park a certain way, then something else has to give. I'll go more and I'll go towards the end because I have an example later on. But next slide, please. You know, then the other aspect that we talked about with swell maintenance costs, right? Parking on swell is not sometimes not an optimist design. I noted the whiff earlier. But the other aspect is it does compact the soil. It creates costly maintenance because when you compact the soil, it's not aerating, and water can't seep through. This is a problem for a community like Deltona where you face flooding issues. If you have compacted soil, you need to go and loosen that up every once in a while. And if you have to do, if your public works has to do that, you're spending money as a city to maintain that, only to get it compacted again. And it has to go out and spend additional money to deal with that. And this is an issue because it affects drainage than water. The other aspect is before a compact or even sometimes while a compact and you're turning it back over, ever go to a parking lot and see, hey, what's that little bot on the parking spot, right? That's the oil. So, guess what's going into your soil and down close to your groundwater? All that stuff that you see that's on the surface of, like, a parking spot. And it's also being ruined grass. Some communities consider it not parking as well because it can cause unsightliness. Of course, we've mentioned soil erosion earlier. The other aspect is to consider a traffic or emergency operation. So, we went through and asked your fire department what their vehicles are. You've got a fire truck length of 42 feet, driving width is at least 8 feet. And you want to have to make sure there's clearance room. So, you know, at least 2 feet on each side is a normal consideration. So, that tells me right off the bat, if you have parking on the street and it's creating a situation less than 12 feet, it's going to be very uncomfortable to go through that one lane. Especially in an emergency basis. And, of course, if you have, you know, a dormitory house or you're thinking about otherwise, if you need to use an aerial device, you need an 18 to 19 foot width because they got to, you know, that the truck needs to plant something on the ground and you need that clearance space. Next, please. Another aspect to consider that I mentioned earlier is who enforces. Your code enforcement has ours. Danny, correct me if I'm wrong. 7 a.m. to 5 p.m., correct? Right. So, the question then is, you can put in the rules and you say no parking on the street at night. Who's going to enforce that? Are you going to have to pull, you know, your sheriff's department to enforce that? And, you know, considerations there, the hours-based parking, how state enforcement is a full parking ban. And parking regulations like this, unless you enforce it, at some point people are just going to catch on and just not going to follow the rules and you're back to square one. So, it's important to think about Chapter 66 holistically on if you're going to put in policies, how that's going to really play out from an enforcement standpoint. I talked about that earlier. I certainly don't want, you know, a food truck parked next to the side of my house in case there's something that they left it overnight in the food truck and it's, you know, ghost. And, of course, but, you know, on the other hand, there's also business support. You know, we certainly understand, like, the aspect of not wanting commercial vehicles in residential neighborhoods. I have put in regulations in other cities before where it's like, hey, it doesn't fit the character and design. But then from a long-range planning perspective, you have to think about where those vehicles go. Do you have a commercial industrial area to say set aside where you can park those vehicles, where they can park those vehicles overnight? This is also important because when you think about these commercial vehicles, particularly, like, food trucks or vendor trucks, these might be small businesses that your residents are running. Maybe they're entrepreneurial. Maybe they're the stepping stone. You have a food truck on the way to become brick and mortar. And so, you know, I work for communities where they have angst about that because it's like, okay, we don't have a place to park, and I'm just trying to start a business because I'm trying to get my family, you know, food on the table and go from there. And so business support is also an important part of even residential parking as well because that affects that we don't necessarily think about on the policy-making stage. Next, please. If I can interrupt really quick, and I apologize. I don't want to sound naive, but I don't understand how, from a safety perspective, restricting commercial vehicles, and I'm speaking about, I'm going to use an example. I'm not trying to pick on them, but Florida public utilities, they usually tend to park on the roads, on the side of the roads, not necessarily on the swells, but on the side of the roads. They get emergency calls. They have to go out. The majority of our residents don't live in HOAs. So I'm having a hard time comprehending why on God's green earth we're trying to make Deltona into a huge HOA. That is what I'm trying to figure out. It feels that way, right? I'm not saying this is what you guys are doing, but I'm just trying to figure out we need to make our streets safer. I agree 100%. I repeat, we should not be parking in swells that nobody should be parking on. Shoot, I've seen people fill in swells, and then we tell them, hey, they're meant to retain water, and then they understand. I understand when we have fire trucks and ambulances that need to go down roads. I'm just trying to figure out and comprehend how now turning a van, and I'm not talking about like a semi-truck or a trailer or a huge, that's understandable. But to now get a van just because it has a couple of logos on it and tell them, hey, we can't park on the street, just help me understand that part. I'm trying to figure it out. I'm not sure I comprehend your question, Mayor, so maybe if I try to rephrase it and you let me know if I'm getting it right. Are we trying to stop commercial vehicles? I don't think from our standpoint we're necessarily telling you just prevent those, where to say, hey, these are documented considerations. It may be separate from the safety aspect. Certainly, you know, some of the safety data, you know, you may have something that's crashing. But, you know, I think it's more, it's less of whether it's, okay, so I'm going to take a step back. I'm going to give you my personal take on it from a professional standpoint. It's less of the fact that it's a commercial vehicle from a safety standpoint and more about the fact that some commercial vehicles are a heavier load or wider than others. Or they may have certain things like, you know, if you have a truck, it's going to have a different visual profile or block certain things, you know, visually speaking than a smaller vehicle, right? And so that's the consideration you kind of think through at a policy standpoint. Not necessarily saying that you have to or don't have to random in Deltona, but you think through the policy that from a safety standpoint, that's what you go for. Now, what I'm also mentioning here is that safety is not the only consideration I think a community needs to go to when they think about parking regulation because, like I mentioned at the beginning of the presentation, it's multifaceted. I don't know if that answers your question, Mayor. I get what you're saying, but I hear you saying it doesn't really match the, I guess, essence of a community. I mean, how are we going to stop Papa John's Domino's from stopping on the side of the road to deliver pizza? How are we going to stop Amazon, UPS, FedEx? I mean, there gets to a point where we start trying to regulate where it becomes a little bit non – it makes no sense. Hold on. It makes no sense. Furthermore, I mean, are we going to start applying this to school buses when they're stopping to drop off kids, to pick up kids? It's just – I get the stuff that makes sense, but the majority of our residents – there might be some that want it, but the majority of our residents do not – they chose not to live in an HOA. And so, Mayor, I want to distinguish between stopping like a school bus does, like temporarily, and stopping to make a delivery like Domino's and so forth. Within your changes to chapter 66 in October, they are allowed to stop temporarily and drop off the item for a small amount of time and then keep going. What they can't do is stay there for like eight, ten hours at a time. So, there's a difference between stopping and making your deliveries or loading of passengers, even an Uber or something like that, and a long-term parking. And any policy distinguishing like aspect, you should always consider that as well. All right. I'll hold the rest of my questions. Commissioner Howington? Thank you. Just for clarification, from what my understanding is, is that this presentation is kind of giving us ideas that we need to consider when we approach how we want to revise chapter 66. Is that correct? Yes. We do have some other slides a little bit further which kind of point towards something that we would suggest you – Some recommendations and things like that. Because at the end of the day, after we see this, then it's up to us to determine which way we want to handle it. And maybe we handle the newer communities, the HOAs, the 24-foot-wide streets, differently than the communities, areas that have the larger streets and the swales versus the Miami drains and things like that. So, this is just kind of a framework for us to use to guide us. Yes. And then, you know, there are some things that we really want to point out at the end as well, including part of what you talked about. And then also we had some aspects where we'll see in a couple of minutes about, hey, you have these new developments that are being considered. And we talked about our staff as well, thinking about how you might think about the site plan of those and looking back at your regulations outside of park and think about things like alley load parking and other things that other cities have looked at in order to address similar issues. So, there's, you know, there's a portion here where it's like, hey, we have something built already. We have to work where we got. And then there's a portion where it's like, there's this new stuff that's coming in. Can we do this better? Right. So, some of it may apply to our land development code and how we move forward with new communities versus what we have in our existing communities. And we may have to break that up into different segments based on the existing infrastructure. Yes, ma'am. Okay. Thank you so much. Zach, before I turn it back over to the gentleman, while we're doing that towards the end, can we make sure we look also into how we can possibly, and I'm sure there's recommendations in there, get some of these newer developments to make sure we have a wide enough street without violating any of the state laws or state statutes. But can we look at and see some of the possibilities of getting that done? There is no possibility then to figure out a way we, because there is a safety aspect of the smaller roads, and they seem, from what I'm looking at, they seem to all be stemming from the newer developments. Yeah, we can certainly look into that, and we'll definitely work with the consultant on their recommendations and based on what the will of the commission is. Thank you, Commissioner Howington, and then we're going to move on. I just wanted to say that previously, before SB 180 came into play, I had had conversations with Jordan about possibly expanding the width of the roads because we are seeing those problems. So that's something we'd have to deal with through the land development and could potentially be on the table until, what, October 2027 at this point. So, okay, thank you. Well, hopefully SB 840 will make its way through next month. Sorry. Next, please. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Definite needs. So we did notice certain things that Chapter 66, besides equivalent errors, you have to update certain definitions. We don't necessarily think that you need to update the definition on the vehicles, but also right now within Chapter 66, you define the right-of-way as the area between the edge of pavement and the edge of property, which is actually the swale. So you have to kind of go back and redefine that as edge of property to the other edge of property, including the right-of-way. So things like that we've seen. You do have to consider, I think, fire hazard in parking locations. So I would strongly urge that you reconsider, reconsider, you know, some of these vehicles, like parking in the 10-feet easement between the houses. That, and definitely, I would say that there is a need to consider that, you know, the width for first and foremost, because some of your right-of-ways are constrained. And so you do want to make sure you have the clearance path. Nothing, after, oh, thank you, Madam Vice Mayor. Where was I? Oh, right-of-way with, right? So you do want to set a policy based on the right-of-way width. And so your parking, that's where the policy and direction comes in more into play, right? We don't necessarily think that right off the bat that you need to ban parking on the right-of-way on both sides. But given the width of your right-of-way, you might want to consider that certain roadways, you only have parking on one side. As you recall a couple of slides ago, I mentioned the curved roadways. Those are also roadways where you really could consider restricting the parking, particularly because of how you see vehicles on the approach. We have, you know, already an example that we brought up in a diagram of an actual incident with a school bus, right? So that kind of illustrates the point on that. Definitely the traveling level clearance. It's on the right-of-way, I would say comfortably minimum 12 feet, but you could really look at 15 being the minimum, which if you have a 24-foot right-of-way, you know, what's brought up in the question and you want to take into account, like what I mentioned earlier, that when I think about parking, I have to give myself A and a half feet on a design basis. 24 minus 8 is about 15, 16. So you only have 24 feet, 12 feet in each direction for travel purposes. Parking on both sides isn't going to get you there. Parking on one side is going to get you that point. So if you're trying to find a balance, um, at least, you know, consider restricting parking on one side of the road. Now your chapter 66, uh, as written, provide that you can provide for that, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and, uh, parking designated on one side. It's only you have the signage. So there are going to be information, sorry, implementation costs. If you decide to go that route, you're going to have to put the signage, um, something that we've also probably would not suggest you do is, um, do like an hour space, like two hours or things like that, because you just don't have the enforcement staff for it. Um, and consider also that, uh, you know, evening, right? So when are you going to enforce this, uh, uh, uh, uh, if you're going to put in the policy for parking, which will also note that because of how close the driveways are to each other, you should consider rules that even when you have to, uh, even when you to go on one side of the street for parking. You should have rules for how close to the driveway they are just so that, you know, um, as, um, if you're the aspect of the picture, uh, um, on, Hey, what about if kids run from behind a vehicle in the traffic, right? It's either residential roads and one would hope that people aren't beating on residential streets, but we all know that not necessarily always the case. I work for coming up communities, um, where that's happened. I just did a workshop last month for a comprehensive plan where the kid charrette we were doing, uh, the kids were all traumatized and talking about, uh, traffic safety at five years old because their friend was hit in their residential neighborhood and dragged down the street and had to be airlifted right before their eyes. And so, you know, we know these things happen. These are consideration. Um, these are definitely something that, you know, there are multiple sides. Uh, to consider, we also would consider, uh, would, uh, say that there needs to be consideration of guest parking, um, because a full ban for those 15% of that, of your community, it actually doesn't provide them with opportunity for guest parking. So, I mean, that's obviously a policy consideration, but there's the other side of why I can, you know, if someone coming, you would ask, it's like, well, my relatives or my friend can't park. Well, there's a reason why, um, um, they, they're there to get to work in a city like Deltona, uh, to and from Deltona, where every day you get about, um, 55,000 people leave Deltona for work every day. Only about 7,000 residents who work, uh, who work in Deltona live in Deltona and so because you have a city that it's just so reliant on getting to other places, a vehicle is necessary and that's part of livelihood and that takes up the, um, again, all the consideration is well-maintenance versus cost-grade permanent parking. Something that we do recommend you look at in the future is thinking about whether or not you want to think in the mid and long term about converting some of those whales into, uh, paid parking. That's obviously a policy decision. We have worked on that with other communities like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Creek, for example, where they had neighborhoods like, well, the street parking is blocking our sweet sweeping and our trash maintenance. So their solution was, Hey, we got these particular areas that we are just going to designate at the parking. We don't want to have to continuously rip those up, but we also have to think about, you know, only very specific limited areas. Uh, so we don't have to do the swell maintenance and also that we can kind of think about the drainage in a more controlled fashion and those can be costly. So you can't do that everywhere, but in certain neighborhoods, if there's a call for it, that is the consideration we looked at in other countries. Uh, next please. Um, oh, I recovered some of that, uh, parking one side. Sorry. Keep going. Future parking options. Besides the conversion of Pacific whales to parking, there's also considerations of where you have centralized parking over time. People don't really think about centralized parking and, and, and, um, think of family residential neighborhood, but that doesn't mean that, you know, they don't occur when you build, uh, a subdivision a certain way where the parking is. Um, there's all the things about, uh, in your regulation that not in your regulation that can point to alley load homes. So you have folks who, uh, are coming and building subdivisions and they have alleys between the houses. Um, um, and you know, you load, you have the garage that's entering from the back. And so they're not parking on the street in the front and you still, still have smaller right of way, but they're considering that a little differently. Your code doesn't really point to that right now. From my understanding, uh, Jordan, correct me. I'm wrong. Um, so these are options that you can consider in the design matrix that may alleviate the need to consider the on-street parking for these new communities. Now that doesn't, you know, reduce the need for your current, you know, uh, neighborhood that are built, but as you consider new site plans, that is consideration as well. Um, additionally, when you think about these houses, that one on the bottom left, um, it's next door to, uh, where I spend, spend friends giving every year. It's obviously my house. And, um, um, so you see the neighbor there has that pay. Well, so, you know, it's impromptu. It, it's not something that the city did themselves allow the neighbor to say, Hey, you know what? We don't have guest parking. You can't park in the street. And I wouldn't park on that street. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, anyway, because I think it was like 22 feet actually. And so it's hard to maneuver around. Um, but they put in a pro on, you know, you can also think about program. It's like, you know what? You don't have guest parking, but we will think about our, um, um, front. Uh, your front yard and what is, uh, you know, your lock coverage a little bit differently to allow for that. So you decide to not have to, uh, on street parking. Maybe that's a way out to consider thinking about those rules a little bit differently. Uh, what, uh, in terms of lock coverage and letting people do it, the property a little bit differently. That's not a specific recommendation, but part of what we're have to do with time to think about. Options from other places, examples from other places. So that when you think about what you want to prioritize with your, uh, with your policies, these are some of the things that can be thought through and will require changes in your code in order to be effective. Doesn't mean you have to adopt them, but hey, it's always good to look at your options, right? Next, please. And lastly, this is where we need direction. We gave you a lot of food for thought. We gave you some very specific recommendation. Obviously some of these policies put, uh, potential run counter to each other. Some of them run concurrent for each other. For example, I was just talking about, Hey, if you decide to not have on street parking, well, you might want to consider how you deal with just parking. Well, get parking comes in either allowing for those, uh, private property owner to develop, you know, how that space in front of house a little differently. Um, that's about changing the world and might be thinking about centralized parking and might be thinking about, you know, or you go a different route. Hey, we're going to relax parking, but it's only one side. Then there are other things that stem from that. Oh, we need kind of direction here on how best to proceed on ordinance revisions. Danny. I did. Nobody's lighting up. Let me ask you a question. Um, maybe this will help the rest of the commission understand this. Uh, what are the times, maybe times of day, maybe the days of the week where you're seeing this parking situation be the worst. And, um, those closing communities like crediting where that's at Fernanda place usually is after hours. When, uh, property owners, residents at that location come back, come home from work. And, um, yes, these streets are narrow and these are the complaints. I know Corlin park. I, cause I, I've gotten those calls from Corlin park and then I refer to you. Correct. Correct. Specifically. Would, would, and I don't know if this is something you guys can look at. Would converting some of those streets and those HOAs into one way streets, would, would that not help some of the, some of the process? Yeah. I mean, I, to a degree. Yeah. You're, you're going to really relate to one of those things that you might see in the community because there is a real need for that parking on the street. Based on what you see from the data and the household, you know, statistics. Commissioner Harriet, then commissioner Colwell. Thank you, mayor. Um, you speak closer to the mic. Commissioner. Thank you so much. First, the first, I'd, I'd like us to see if there's an operational opportunity to increase those hours for code enforcement. Just not, but not specifically for this ordinance, but I know that we've got some other ordinances that are primarily take effect after, after business hours. Um, second, I think that, uh, finding a way with legal and, and, uh, planning staff to look into, um, preventing this in future developments is key. I think that, um, we don't want to get to the point where we're exacerbating the problem that we have throughout other parts of the city. Um, and I think that it's also very important that with the, the drainage problems that we have in a lot of areas in the city that, that we're not exacerbating those issues with right of way parking. Um, the crash data, I, I think I'm with Novick on the, on the fact that 68 isn't a significant number. Um, I, I obviously, I'd like to have zero if that's a possibility. I just don't know if that's possible. And, um, I would enter, I would love to hear the conversation or have the conversation with everybody about, uh, on street parking versus off street right of way parking. If that's, if there's, it would be an appetite for that. So thank you, mayor. Commissioner Caldwell, then vice mayor Avila Vasquez. Um, yeah, Danny, I was under the impression that code enforcement operated from seven to seven. Has that changed recently or? We, um, it's, but it's always been that way. All right. We do have on call, on quote, but it's for animal emergencies only. Okay. My misunderstanding. Um, I want to touch the point of the parking on one side of the road. Um, I, I can imagine all the issues that would create when the people on the odd side of the road have available to park there. The people on the even side are probably gonna be parking in that same spot if we make that available. Surely we're gonna get complaints from neighbors parking their cars across the street in the neighbor's yard, so to speak. The safety factor when somebody's trying to pull out of that driveway that has that side street parking. Right. Um, making sure the neighbors are actually obeying the ordinance to not to, you know, park too close to the, to their driveway. That's another issue. Right. Yeah. So I'm not sure about that one side road unless it's designated areas that they can park. To, uh, touch on the commercial parking. Um, I, I know this is a, a big touching point here in Deltona. A lot of calls I get from our residents are in regards to modified vehicles, commercial vehicles, F450s, 350s that have the booms put on and things like that. Um, driving across the sidewalks, parking the side of the yards, and potentially breaking the sidewalks, which most of us taxpayers pay for. All of us taxpayers pay for. Um, the sides of the road getting tore up from those vehicles going on off the roads backing in there. So, um, I think that needs to be a consideration in it also, um, as we move forward with this. Yes. That's all I have. Vice Mayor Avila Vasquez. Thank you, Mayor. Um, so I have a question. Don't HOAs, um, make up their own rules as far as parking on the streets? Some, some, and legal can help me out with this as well. Some HOAs do have their own rules in terms of parking on the streets or it'd be in their docks. I know in our case we have one HOA because it's gated. Um, they make their own rules. I didn't just, um, I know that. If it's in their docs, it'd be up to the HOA to enforce it. I'm sorry? If it isn't in their document docs, it would be up to the HOA to enforce it. Yeah. And to just piggyback off of that, I believe the majority of your HOA communities do have publicly dedicated streets that are city maintained and owned. So those roads would be subject to all of the city's requirements. They're not private roads, which would not necessarily, um, fall under those, those same requirements. Okay. Cause I know I have maybe about four, maybe five, any HOAs in my district. And I know the majority of them don't allow parking on the streets overnight. Um, so that helps us because they're making their own rules and regulations. Uh, about commercial trucks. Now here we, we are, you know, have a debate here because I, I get what you were saying about, um, somebody who's starting their own business, um, and have to bring their trucks home. But then the neighbors call us complaining because the view, they don't like the view of these commercial trucks next to them. It takes away the value of their home. It makes their streets look ugly. Um, and I, I understand both. And I know that Danny will agree with me that my district has the most violations when it comes to, um, trucks, especially in the evenings. Um, and you know, code will go around in a couple of days. You'll see everything nice and clean. Nope. Everybody's gone, but give it three or four days and they're back again. Um, so I think we have to try to figure out how to, you know, how to, um, make everyone happy because we do not have parking, uh, truck parkings in Deltona. I know there was a while back. It came to the commissioners to approve a property of Doyle and it didn't pass. Uh, somebody wanted to open up a parking for trucks. We do have one on Saxon Boulevard on the other side of Wendy's. There is parking there, but it's my understanding it's, it's full. So here again, I sympathize with these commercial owners because there is no place for them to park. Um, and they have to go to Samford to park their trucks. So I think looking into the possibility of maybe, um, looking at the city, looking at some vacant land that we have and maybe providing some parking for our commercial. You know, residents who have commercial trucks for, you know, minimal fee or something like that, just to make it safe, make it clear, make it fair for everyone. Um, so the, uh, okay. So, um, one of the other things that I want to bring up about the HOA, the, uh, you know, the car accidents on HOA. Um, I know residents have asked for bumpers and I just want to say that in speaking to VSO, they won't give it to them because there's only 25 miles an hour. Um, in the resident, it's just not, you know, um, fast enough to require. It's just that they're not following the rules and stuff. Now, the restrictions for a cul-de-sac, how is that? I mean, there's only a certain number of people that live in that little curve and they all have their own, you know, ways of backing each other up and making sure that everything is clean. Um, so how are the regulations for that? I mean, are we just allowing them? The current, um, ordinance that we have September, October. Could we, could, hold on. Could we, can we make sure he uses that other microphone, please? Oh, sure. The current ordinance that was approved September, October, does not allow any type of street parking. That includes in the cul-de-sac. Even if you have like three houses and nobody's there but them three residents? It's, it's still no parking. In vacant lots, we do not allow parking of any vehicles. And that just, well, it was just updated in the ordinance also. Uh, we were having issues with vacant lots with parking and, uh, that was updated in September, October. And, um, we've been enforcing that since then. Okay, these are not vacant lots cause I'm talking about a resident who brought it up to my attention. You know, there's only, there's houses and yet they, you know, they get, uh, warning notifications and they don't understand why because they're the only ones there. Um, so I'm wondering if going further, we can look at this a little bit more and maybe some, make some, um. Um, because right now we've been educating the residents because of the new ordinance that went street parking unless there's a signage to allow parking, which we, we have not done that. But, um, it's just educational right now while we review in chapter six. Okay. So we can look at this a little bit further to see if there's any, any, uh, way of making a little bit easier for anybody who lives in a cul-de-sac. Yes. That could be in there. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you, mayor. Commissioner Santiago. Thank you, mayor. Um, some of the questions were answered with, uh, vice mayor had answered them, but Danny, you know, you've worked here for how long? I got 20 plus years. Yeah. Yeah. Over 20 years. Um, what is your most top, um, violation that you see all the time that you have difficulty with? Because it's, it's, it is the parking, the right of way parking. Okay. Um, before we did update that, uh, ordinance for that, it took me three days within the seven day period to find a violation for that parking. Um, yes. So it's the ways no more than two days within the seven day period on the third day, we would have to wait a whole week to find it in violation before we can address it. Um, this is residential homes. That is correct. Residential. Okay. Cause I know we talked a lot about the, uh, vehicles that are parked on the road, on the front of the yard, which I don't, you know, how can we help you with, um, changing some of the rules in parking residential parking? Um, I have, um, various, um, calls regarding parking. Now I know in the past we had, um, the right of way, there was some parking that was allowed that, and now it's, it's changed to, you have to have rocks or gravel in order for the parking to take place. Um, whatever happened to, uh, just mulch, putting mulch on that right of way? Okay. That was on the land, uh, land development code. Okay. And it's actually on the property, not on the right of way when we allow rock with the border. Commissioner, that is for second driveways and driveway expansions. Okay. Cause I, we talked, one of the things that you suggested was to relax that code and make it able so that guests can park there. So is that something that we can move forward with? We can change so that we can allow, um, guests to park there. Or if you do have more than two cars, making it just a little bit easier for the residents. That's, that's an ordinance we currently enforcing. We actually do that now. Okay. There is a permit application for driveway expansion. Okay. It would have to come and see zoning and the planning, you know, with the planning department. That way that gets approved. And it's, I think it's still currently, there's no fee required, but yes, we eliminated mulch. Um, but it's mostly rock that we, we do permit. Can we change it back to mulch? Is there a reason why we don't want mulch? I would let. So we took the mulch away, um, out of the ordinance because the mulch kept, um, washing away and it was an aesthetic. Okay. Good, good answer. Just wanted to know. Um, but is there anything that you feel that it should, something that we should change to make it more aesthetic for the city? But yet I do not want it to look like any, you know, I, I don't want it to be an HOA. Right. And I mean, we did make up changes on there. We allow more parking on the front yard, not in the right of way. Um, as long as it's on an approved driveway surface with the expansion, the driveway. Uh, we did up the numbers of parking behind the front face of the house, which is, we used to be two. Now we allowed three, um, to help us with the right of way parking. Um, but yes, um, my, my suggestion is help with the ordinance when the right of way when there's gatherings. Right. Um, um, sometimes services, uh, lawn services, they're there to cut your grass right now. They're not supposed to, they're not allowed to. Um, but yes, we do allow for, if you want to drop somebody off, pick somebody up. Um, if you're dropping something off, that's allowed right now. Say that again, you said about lawn service because they do park on the street or right away. Let's just say you have a, um, you have a lawn guy that comes to your property to cut your grass. Right now, the ordinance doesn't allow that. Hmm. They're not even allowed to park in the street. Guys, we'll get, we'll. Okay. Okay. That's something that we definitely need to look at and see how we can change it. But thank you very much. Thank you, Danny. Commissioner Caldwell. Um, I was just going to touch on what they said about the, we've already provided a passage for them to be able to park vehicles in the yard and approve driveway service, which we're currently not charging for. So that's all I was going to say. Commissioner Harriet. Thank you, mayor. Um, the, on the commercial vehicle topic, um, this was a topic that I, I got a lot of calls on and continue to get a lot of calls. In fact, I, I heard from a resident today that, uh, there's a neighbor that's parking a dump truck at their house. Um, and to commissioner Caldwell point, we all pay for the, the shoulder of the road. We all pay for the edge of the asphalt. We all pay for the sidewalks that get destroyed from these, um, you know, these vehicles that shouldn't be driving over them. They're not, those surfaces aren't intended for, for these heavy commercial vehicles. But I also would like to see changes to the ordinance regarding commercial vehicles so that we're not penalizing, um, you know, somebody that has ladder racks on the side of their vehicle. Or, you know, a wrap on the side of the vehicle because they use their vehicle for business. Or, you know, even somebody that's got, uh, you know, uh, an F three 50 or an F four 50 that's parking in their driveway. Um, if they're, if they're damaging city infrastructure, ie the side of the edge of the, the asphalt and the sidewalk, that's one thing. I, you know, don't want this to be, uh, costing the city any money, but, um, uh, that has a lot of small businesses and a lot of, uh, blue collar neighbors. And, um, I think that's an unnecessary burden to, you know, restrict overly restrict commercial vehicles. Um, and then I think that, uh, however, this shakes out and the different components that, um, end up getting approved in the next version. Um, I'd like to see us specifically allocate and implement an educational plan instead of jumping to strictly to enforcement. I'd like to see some sort of, you know, 30, 60, 90 day, you know, progress on educating and, and more than just putting something on Facebook or, or whatnot. So I'd like to see a comprehensive educational plan to inform residents and, um, on inform them on what the new rules are and then inform them on what their opportunities and options are so that they can maintain what they're currently doing. So that's all I've got, mayor. Thank you. Commissioner Novick. So as we move forward with this and we look at it, we need to look at each action that we take and the ramifications that it's going to have. Danny said that we increase the number of vehicles that can be parked behind the face of the house. Well, we can look at a 1989 fire after action report from Palm Coast that'll show you that the reason they burned Palm Coast to the ground not once but twice was because conduit was placed between the two structures. That conduit being a boat, a trailer, a motor home. There's a reason that there's 15 feet between most residential structures. Seven and a half feet to the buildable property line on both sides creates 15 feet. Fire will burn horizontal, uh, 10 feet before it turns and goes vertical. That's why there's a 15 feet separation between structures. When you put a piece of conduit there, i.e. a boat, or we allow parking behind the face of the structure, instead of allowing a boat to be parked in a driveway, we now have created a situation where when a fire gets started in house A, it will come out a bedroom window, it will contact the boat that's made of fiberglass, the boat will burn, and now burn to the second house. Or, which we are going to unfortunately see in the next couple of months, wildfires. A boat sitting between two houses, what do we have a lot of in Deltona? Pine trees, right? Those pine needles fall inside the boat. It becomes duff and stuff that's easily ignitable. So an ember comes over, falls into the boat from a fire a mile away, and now we have the boat on fire and it sets both houses on fire. So the idea of parking anything between two residential structures behind the face of the house is ridiculous, okay? It's ridiculous and it's dangerous. I just saw a resident in my area who has had a boat on a trailer parked in his driveway for well over a year. Code enforcement has gone up and down the street numerous times, hasn't done anything. They finally tagged the guy and he moved the boat. It's a corner house. He took the boat off of his driveway, moved it behind the face of the house on the street side of the house in the grass. What did that accomplish? Why does the boat look any better sitting on the street side of the house behind the face of the house than it did in the driveway? This makes no sense to me. In fact, it's really become more dangerous because now it's under a bunch of trees. So when we look at some of these fixes to this ordinance, we need to really look very broad as to what all of those ramifications are. I will tell you that I've been involved in the city since the city's inception. This parking ordinance has been changed numerous times. It's been approached a dozen different ways and here we are today still trying to fix it. This is an extremely complicated problem. What I would suggest very strongly is that we give clear guidance to Jordan and his department about fixing anything going further first. I think if we're going to prioritize this, that would be the first thing to limit the amount of damage that we're causing and the problems we're creating as we go forward. Then we can go back and try and deal with what is a commercial vehicle. It used to be defined by GVW. I don't know if it still is. No, it's changed just a little bit of the definition. Okay. So to Commissioner Caldwell's concern, certainly GVW, gross vehicle weight, is something that we would look at. But then what is the tool for code enforcement to look at an F-350 that's got a box on the back of it? Does that hit the GVW? How are you going to know? So enforcement then, it's great to put stuff on the books. How does he enforce it? How do we give him the tools? They don't work after 5 o'clock, which is when most of these vehicles come home. So how do we deal with that component? The Sheriff's Department has already said that they're not enforcing these things. Okay. So what is that plan? If we create the rule, then how do we enforce it? The rule does no good unless we have a mechanism to enforce it. So let's work that backwards and figure out how we're going to enforce it before we adopt the rule. So this is a very long-term problem for the residents to think that this is going to get fixed by this sitting commission or the next sitting commission is not reasonable. This is a long-term problem, and I would highly suggest that the first part of it, like I said already, is that we deal with any new subdivisions, and we do have some that we're working on that are coming forward in the city that are in PUDs, and we're able to work through some of those traffic issues. The next, I would say, is the subdivisions themselves that are existing, and that's, I think, to try and hold some type of a forum with each HOA and get their input for their particular circumstance. I don't want to use the word spot zoning, but each one of those is built a little bit differently. And there's other options when we look at the density of these houses, because these problems were created by the developers. The developers wanted to get as many houses squeezed in to as much property as they could, so that created that problem. But we have other tools at our disposal to help remedy some of that. For instance, we can require, if they want to have that kind of density, it has to have residential fire sprinklers. All those houses would have to have residential fire sprinklers. Then emergency services, we don't have to worry so much about putting the outriggers out on the truck because the sprinkler system is going to put the fire out. We're not going to need to put a platform truck up. So there's a lot of other tools that encompass the parking issue other than parking regulations. There's other components to it, other parts of the ordinances to look at as we move forward. And that's why I say it's such a big, we have to eat this one spoonful at a time. We can't eat the elephant all in one bite because there's a lot of moving parts to this. Thank you, Mayor. Vice Mayor Avila Vasquez and then Commissioner Howington, and then we'll go to public comment. Hold on. Commissioner Howington, can you go back on again? Go ahead, Vice Mayor. Thank you. I agree with you, Commissioner Novick. And I can tell you that I visit all my HOAs, and they are so involved with this. They're very strict with their parking. And I think that working with all the HOAs to help us the way some of these HOAs are helping us, even though we don't know it, it'll ease up a lot of, you know, of the tension that we're having. Because I can tell you one of the strictest HOAs is Edgewater. They don't even allow motorcycles on their parking. So that's how strict they are. They don't have a problem. People move in with motorcycles and, you know, they find a place to put it. And Saxon Ridge is the same way. But I just wanted you to explain a little bit more because I heard somebody in the back questioning, and then we didn't go back to it. Lawn, when somebody comes to cut your lawn, they're not allowed to park on the street. Where are they going to park? That's the current ordinance does not allow any street parking unless there's a sign that allows parking. Unless you're dropping somebody off or picking somebody up. No, no. Somebody who's coming to cut the lawn in your house. Per the ordinance, it doesn't allow it right now. So where do they park if they come to cut your grass? I mean, if it's happening, right now we are educating. We're still in the education phase when it comes to this ordinance. I mean, I've seen them park actually in the middle of the road, you know, on the main streets, right in the middle, while they're cutting grass on the sides or whatever. But I'm just wondering, where are they going to park? If they can't park on the street to cut the grass. Yeah. And I think that that's one of the unintended consequences of the ordinance that we'll be working through with Edward and his team as we move forward with making these revisions. Okay. I mean, I don't want my guy to come cut my grass and then when he comes back his truck is gone. So just just thank you, ma'am. Commissioner Howington. Thank you. I agree with Commissioner Nabick in that we need to be proactive with the new communities that are coming in. We definitely need to look at that. I'm hearing of communities that don't even have turn radiuses that will support fire engines. And that's a very serious concern. So we need to start with being proactive and then working backwards with the communities that we already have. I think it would be a great idea for us to invite potentially the various HOAs in to have a meeting together. And maybe some of them can leverage ideas from what other communities are doing, because we have a mix where some communities have privately owned roads, while others are city owned roads. And so with that said, if it will be the city managers will, I would like to hear from Danny what some of his ideas would be in things that his department can actually enforce. What are some ideas that we could possibly put into place as a mechanism as we move forward with coming up with ideas? Because you've been doing this for a long time. We don't do this. So it's easy for us to say, well, that sounds like a great idea. What truly works? Well, my suggestion right now, the semis, right, it's part of the commercial vehicle ordinance, and we suspended the ordinance. So I can't enforce when it comes to semis. And guess what? The information, they know. It's out there. If we can, you know, we can bring that back up and maybe just for semis to allow, that's one. It's huge. Right away parking. I understand. I have gatherings. We had a Super Bowl yesterday. You have people that are going to come and visit, you know. So right away, I don't like cars being parked in the right of way because it damages the right of way. We're constantly dealing with, you know, tearing up the right of way. It might not even be that resident that lives in the house. It might be a neighbor that parks on that side of the street. But definitely, it's tough. It's a tough situation. We have some parts of the city that the old Mackle homes, you know, and it's only this much parking in the driveway. It's very difficult, you know. And, hey, the ordinance doesn't say, hey, this 2,000 square feet house, I could only do this. But this 1,200 square foot house, I can do this. No, it's the ordinance's, you know, same for both properties. It's very difficult, but yes, whatever you put down on paper, we can enforce. The hours, most of the stuff when it comes to parking, it does happen after working hours. But my guys do work on Saturday and Sunday, and that's where we catch the violators most of the time. Because they work Monday through Friday. So, you know, and the safety factor is there when it comes to working in the evenings once it gets dark. You know, we're not law enforcement. We don't carry. That's, please, consider that also. But 7 to 5, I think, is a good time. We do it seven days a week. My guys are out there, so we can catch them on the weekends. But, yeah, right away parking is huge. If we can actually adjust the commercial vehicle when it comes to semis, I'm not sure where we can bring that up, but if it has to come in the commission meeting. I would like that put back in place, too, so I can enforce that. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. That's all that I have. All right. Before we go to public comment, is there anything we can do about maybe bringing in somebody, and we don't need the whole commission. I would love it where we can have another workshop and maybe bring somebody from the fire department and somebody from the sheriff's office and to hear the safety perspective or their safety perspective in this whole situation. Because they would have a point of view. I mean, you know, we have Commissioner Novick that has that projection because he was a firefighter, or he is. Sorry. I guess once a firefighter was a firefighter, right? But especially from the sheriff's office, because this is all great, but if we're not going to be able to enforce it and Danny goes out and tags the cars all these times and then the sheriff doesn't do anything, what good is anything that we're doing? Well, you're just calling for another workshop is what you're doing. If it's okay with the commission. Yeah, because any more to two commissioners obviously is. Yeah. Would the commission be okay with another workshop where we involve the sheriff and the fire rescue, at least to hear from their perspective? Yeah. Hold on. It needs to be, yeah. No presentation. It needs to be like an open forum where we can have a conversation. Obviously we can share this with them individually. You guys can share that. So when we come and have it, it can be a legitimate conversation where we're all talking to each other and then we're able to bounce ideas. And that's about it. All right. We're going to go ahead and open to public comment. City clerk. And Blodgett, please. And Mr. Blodgett, if you can just turn on the mic and I'll make sure the mic is on. I really hate going first. Okay. To begin with some of the information we got from the presentation. Would have been a lot more useful if we had the beginning number. It's like 67, 68 out of how many? And all the breakdowns of the things that we can do about versus the things that we can't do something about. So it'd be nice if that was redrawn. Next. Seems to be an awful lot of personal bias on the commission tonight. And I don't think you guys really, I don't think you should be going after this topic this way. You have a ordinance review committee. I'm the chairman of it. Use it. Next thing. Oh, you brought up a lot of interesting topics. I'm really offended at what everybody is willing to accept as far as fire trucks are concerned. You're happy with a 24 foot wide road. Really? Walmart, they give you 10 feet to park in. So with 24 feet, that means if you have a weekend party, the only way you're going to get fire services is if it's on an e-bike. Because they won't make it down the road. Especially in these new developments. You can't park a Yukon or a Suburban in the driveway of these new developments without forcing all the handicapped folks into the road. Much less the kids on scooters and e-bikes. Used to be the people would focus on safety first. Why don't you take that as your first consideration. The last consideration should be somewhere around, oh gee, my kid grew up and they want a car. Now, as far as the swells is concerned, great idea, Mayor, except I spent five years trying to get my lawn quote unquote aerated to help the percolation. The service doesn't exist around here. Pure and simple. So there's a whole lot more. I don't have enough time to cover all the grounds. But you need to pick this apart piece by piece and concentrate on safety first. And I got a lot of backlash from the small businesses because, oh my God, they have a wrapper on their truck. Well, you have people selling their homes who don't want to look like a highway in Tennessee. And they have rights too. They don't need to be seeing whatever business you're running. Some of these food trucks look like subways from Brooklyn. And they're parking them on people's front lawns and you got to look at it to be continued. Thank you. Kathy Bryan, please. Good evening, Kathy Bryan. I was going to say the same thing about the ordinance committee. You notice that over the years the family dynamic has changed and the development has not kept up with it because more and more people are living in the same house. So this was something else that really needs to be addressed. And you guys have that in your hands with land use codes and you don't have to rezone everything because they want to jam a bunch of houses up. And then we have, oh, nobody has a place to park. Well, you know, then we need to hold developers accountable for that. Your clearance, you know, we talk about emergency services, but there are so many roads and not just your new ones, not just your HOAs, that they curve. And the curve is sometimes short before you get to a stop sign or intersection. And you get cars parked out on the road and stuff, you can't see around. A kid jumps out in front, you can't see when you're out and around. We had in our neighborhood, one of our guys getting his driveway done, they were parked on both sides of the road, so you had to do this to get through. Now, how's the fire engine going to get through that? So there's a lot of things that need to be considered. What about a right-of-way, partial right-of-way, partial road? Where are the pipes? How much room do we have? Can we do a little bit of a half-and-half thing? When you guys do education, that's a great idea. We need to remind people about their septic tanks. When people drive over their yards, they're going to have a surprise expense one day. Also note, too, a long time ago, there were no sidewalks, essentially. And then they built them on one side of the street. So one neighbor can park two cars in their driveway. The other neighbor can park four because there's no sidewalk. So you really have to think about those things because it's not fair, it's not right. So the one person has to get creative. A lot of people, that sidewalk wasn't built when they moved out here. They didn't pick which side of the street it got built on. You really need to provide, let me skip that one. Also, too, your trash and delivery vehicles like to park in the middle of the road while they get their trash cans and deliver their packages. You know, hello. 68 crashes in residential areas. Like everybody said, you said on-street parking only. How many streets is that? Because maybe 68 is a lot, maybe it's not. Numbers are only as good as the data that goes behind them. Also, too, with parking on streets, what about areas like Howland? Not Howland. Providence, Normandy, Elkhom, where you have residents, and even Howland, too. You have residents that are living on those major highways. We can't have people parking on the road there. Even if it's four lanes, can you imagine the accidents then? Thank you. Thank you. Can I say one more thing? Okay. So the other thing is, too, is that I've noticed more people parking on the road. Since you guys implemented this and probably because they heard about it, and I'm telling you now it's limiting visibility because when they park on a corner, you can't see shit when you're trying to see around that corner. If they're on the right-of-way, great. So we really have to find a compromise and something that works for the both. Thank you. Thank you. Peacock. Thank you. Christine Peacock. Matthew Borgans. Good afternoon. We keep talking about commercial vehicles. Well, there's a Florida statute that defines the vehicles. It excludes the F-150s. It excludes the 250s. It has the weight. It has what they are. It has the exclusions. So it's not saying a semi. We already have that in law. We have that in the orders. Like the gentleman said, we need to define those better. I've been saying that from the beginning. So it's already there. We need to keep talking about it and bring that up and making that a highlight when it's already been defined in the statute. So that's not even an issue here. And we keep making that the issue. I drive down Saxon and there's an Amazon vehicle in the middle of Saxon parked there. We say you can offload and unload. That's your lawn guys. We just need to define that better. You know, we have all these things already there. We need to make them better. Commissioner Knobbick, you were there when the Hampton Oaks was approved and put in the 250 houses in there with the roads there. You know, that's something we could have looked at then. If you go over, even right there from the Walmart, people were speeding down there and almost hitting kids at Spirit Elementary. I have a law enforcement officer that lives there. He says his kids almost get hit every day. Every day he wants to move because his kids are about to get hit. You know, that's that's that's ridiculous. I had a resident in my neighborhood die because it took nine minutes for long for the fire department to get from Providence at the Ace Hardware to the Walmarts. Nine minutes and passed away. Ex law enforcement passed away because the fire truck couldn't get there because they're way even in and out of all the cars getting there. That's unacceptable. One life, you know, you're talking about 60, 60 some odd crashes. One life is too much. You know, you drive down Saxon or any of these major roads. There's five, six cars parked in the lawn. It looks like trash. If the city looks like trash, trash is going to come into the city. It's like the broken glass that, you know, Doc always talks about. One broken glass window comes to broken windows. So you have these vehicles that are parked in and it looks like garbage, the dump trucks, the vehicles all over the lawn. Then you're going to get to like what happened here. You relax the law, the ordinance, not enforce it. Now it's everywhere. So if we don't put this in place and force it, we're going to look like trash and then it's going to keep happening. So we need it. We need to get it in place. We have the ordinance committee. We can sit there and keep going over multiple commissions, not just one, but take it apart because this doesn't just affect this ordinance. It affects the fire ordinance. It affects every other ordinance that attached to it. So if you don't, if you try to do it here, it doesn't get everything else. Put it over in the ordinance committee, let them address it. It's going to keep going over multiple commissions and not just this one here. You go after HOAs. It's not an HOA problem. It's a resident problem. We're all residents of Deltona. We're not the HOA and we're not non HOAs. It's all residents of Deltona. Thank you. Thank you. Pamela Brown, please. Hi, Pamela Brown. Two things. Mayor of you, you touched on this a little bit and you're correct that Deltona is a unique neighborhood. So there's a lot of things that have to be considered. What might work in Altamont or Longwood, you can't just rubber stamp it and put it here. The communities aren't the same. This is a working class neighborhood. It's a bedroom community. Majority of the residents, one of you did speak on that. They get in a car or a work truck and go to work every day. So we need to define what is an acceptable work truck to be parked in the driveway. In my neighborhood, can't count how many times I've seen a dump truck in the front yard, semis. So yeah, I'm against those, but I don't have any problem with ABC air conditioning van parked in their driveway. I don't have any problem with somebody's truck parked in their driveway that has a ladder on it or those things that hold glass or whatever. I don't know the name. So let's look at the uniqueness of our community and appeal to that because that's why we moved here because of the uniqueness. I raised my kids in Longwood. I'm retired now. We moved here because of the uniqueness. I wanted to be away from all that city traffic and everybody crammed in on top of each other. I don't want to see that happen here. This is a wonderful community. Yeah, we got some problems, but let's work on them. So you did touch on that. Mr. Nabict, I loved what you had to say with regards to fire safety because you're right. Anybody remember, I think it was 98, 99 when the drought and the fires were coming through, especially in the Wekiva area and everything. And they were evacuating whole neighborhoods because of the drought and the fires. So people parking all those cars behind their homes and their boats, too. That is a concern. So we do need to put that into the uniqueness of our neighborhood. Where are they going to put them? Are you going to have storage facilities for people to put their boats? Last but not least, we touched on landscaping trucks are not allowed to park on the street. And I totally agree with that. So when we fine tune that ordinance, let's look at the size. My neighbor across the street, her landscape man, he has one of those big Ford trucks. And then he has a 30, 40-foot trailer. And then the back door opens like the gate to a moat. So he literally blocks my whole driveway every time he comes. I was late almost for a doctor appointment one morning because he had come early in the morning. He parked there. I couldn't get out without hitting him or hitting my car against my mailbox and going up over the swale. I went over because we help our neighbors out. They help us. We're good neighbors. Knocked on the door, my husband and I. We asked her, could she have her landscaper move his truck up so I could get out and get to my doctor's appointment? She said no. He's my landscaper. He's here doing my yard. He's not blocking her driveway. He stopped at the front of her driveway and it went all the way back blocking my driveway and my neighbors. And then when he opened the gate on the truck and pulled out all of his equipment, he laid it in the neighbor's driveway. All his riding mowers and stuff. So that guy had to drive over his front yard to get out to go to work. Thank you, Pamela. I'm sorry. So, yeah, please consider the size of the trucks. May that close as public comments. All right. City Manager, do you have any comments? Just real quick. I think it was a very good meeting listening to a lot of comments from the citizens as well as the commissioners. And I think this is a hot item that Danny and the staff has been dealing with for years. So hopefully this leads to some great direction by the commission to get ahead of this after all these years. Thank you. Meetings adjourned. Tell the residents that whatever we discuss here is we haven't told this is what we're going to do and this is what we want you to do. Everything we discuss here is ideas of how to make things better. Am I correct? So that, you know, residents don't think that we're enforcing everything that was discussed here is just a way of looking at it and trying to make things better for them. Correct. Correct. Thank you. Meetings adjourned.