for saturday 29th 2025 if i can please have the city clerk call the roll commissioner vila masquez commissioner colwell here commissioner commissioner howington here commissioner lully here commissioner santiago here vice mayor harriet present mayor vila here please stand for the pledge and i'll ask commissioner lully to lead us in the pledge i'm going to start in section four business uh we're going to start with a code and parks and we're starting with the tnr travel release program in the bottom there we go new ron co-compliance manager good good afternoon mayor vice mayors commissioners um i'm here because i need direction with this program that we have this program has been in place with uh by the city commission since 2013 um staff has been tasked the last couple of weeks to find an alternative to the tnr program as of right now we have not found an alternative um this is a problem it's not a city deltona problem it's not a county problem it is a countrywide problem the cat population is out there best way to control those um a lot of tnr programs have been in place in jurisdictions um so that's why we're here this this afternoon now since taking over this program a year and a half ago i have put in safeguards in place to protect the taxpayers um money and um so i've come here to ask for direction on this program what type of direction are you looking for so we're clear um there's not much in the ordinance to enforce so maybe definitely update the ordinance if this if you want to continue with the program um for best practices and also enforcement actions when it comes to violation of you know the ordinances okay i believe commissioner caldwell was at the last tnr meeting and you're actually on the board already so if you can just speak into the mic and what did you learn at that meeting and then whatever you want to say as well um i learned there was quite a few cats and the population and it was out of control um what i'm looking for is we were supposed to identify the people that were involved with the the program um who's registered the locations and things like that have we come to that point yet or we have not have we put out the information for them to be able to available to that's correct and nobody's coming forward no one's come forward um the information i'm getting tnr's all over all over deltona not just designated areas did we ever have designated areas or locations um we did start a colony list but as time went on staffing has changed within those periods uh it wasn't kept up today i know the program was originally designed to control the populations or the colonies of cats not to exceed certain areas have we identified other cities that um are using um programs for the tnr program every pretty much every jurisdictions in the area has some kind of program um we did i think one of our one of the best ones that i've seen and i haven't had a chance to even bring it up to the city manager is um port orange they have a program it's it's structured and but their ordinance is in place to help them do the enforcement they provide training for those county caretakers uh eliminating how many animals on you know on their property if it's commercial if it's residential okay um we haven't seen any interest in anybody wanting to be registered then at this point at this point we have not have any um what i propose is uh to extend our research for another 30 days and if we can't get people to um come forward and want to be registered then we'll look at an alternate plan um as far as where we want to go with it um we got cat populations or colonies that are growing to large amounts i mean there's some of them 40 50 cats in these populations and they're being fed all over the place so we need to get control of this that's all i can uh commissioner lo thank you thank you um when this kind of came up again um recently when i went into our code i found there was it was very vague and it said that it was a pilot program and then that's it right is that that's correct sir okay so um um i agree with with um commissioner caldwell um i think that and perhaps maybe that's what's what's in on the report today maybe that is the summary of the that's the that's the summary of the pilot because to me i think of a pilot program as you bring back the results of it to determine wider um application that's what that's at least what i would think it would be so um i guess as part of that that coming back in 30 days with with um information and and recommendations based on on the feedback that you get um i would like again to present the the results of what we've seen so far and i guess the pilot program so far has been just all over the place really i guess is what what it would be so if we think that that has not worked then i'd like to hear that and then present the next steps of what the recommendations would be for a full-on um ordinance for this that goes beyond just calling it a pilot program understood commissioner avila vasquez then vice mayor harriet thank you mayor so when this program came to the city of deltona that's my first term here at the as commissioner and port orange was the people that came to train us and give us the presentation and help us put together the policies and uh whatever information we put together i can tell you that back in the days we did have a nice group of volunteers who did their job um we have feeders and honestly i couldn't understand why a feeder has to be identified as a feeder in order to feed a cat but that's a different story um and i and i can tell you that we it was working i met a lot of the volunteers back in the days for some reason um things started to break off and maybe the policy itself here in the city of deltona didn't start work uh stop working the the way it started because of the change in staff like you said but there were reports there were reports that we used to get um we knew where the colonies were we knew who all the volunteers were at that time so again something must have gotten lost in the change of staff um we did have a big turnout a turnover uh again we did have good volunteers back when this program started so i i um i don't know what happened unfortunately um and i understand some people i don't have cats i have nothing against them i'm just allergic to them but um so you know i i just don't i just don't like to hear the anger and and and the um hatred that people use when they talk about cats getting rid of cats i'm sorry i love dogs don't tell me about getting rid of dogs i don't like people i can't get rid of them unfortunately um so i'm i'm totally for this program i just hope that we can make it work that we can continue working with it and we can make it work and we can go back to how it all started and i know that the biggest concern here is the grant the money this is what all i believe a lot of the commissioners complained about the money money money money you know you got to spend money and everything in the city um we got to pay staff to take care of you know animal control to go out there and make sure that everything is working um i know that i think recently there was something about neutering cats and and spading dogs or whatever maybe vice versa um but i know there was a program where you brought your animal in and it was in combination with halifax and they brought them here because i had my dogs taken care of and um i dropped them off here they took them to halifax they had to fix they brought them back here we picked them up and it was a nice program that worked um back then so let's let's try to work on that let's try to think about that and not just put the ownerships on the volunteers that are out there they don't get paid for this you know this is the love that they have for these animals um you know i'm just saying port orange was the one that came out to train us as a matter of fact she's a she the person that came out to train us what is the port orange mayor right now and she's i think the mayor of volusia league of cities so that's the port mayor of port orange generally i think you're talking about nancy she's no nancy is nate they turn to be shores so maybe she's not the mayor anymore but um i'm sorry to say i know a lot of you don't like it but i'm for it you know i'm an animal lover so and then the other the other story i heard was that people drop cats off here from other cities what kind of proof do we have we don't know if that's true you know um i don't know we let's try and see how we can save this program if other if other cities are doing it let's look and see what they're doing that we're not doing that's not working i know we're a larger city we're bigger um i don't know let's see like like you said let's let's look at it let's talk about it let's see what's not working we never even got a report we never found out what we're doing wrong what we're doing right what's working what's not working i know i'm gonna get a lot of emails from those people who hate cats how dare you support this but i mean you know it's like your children nobody they didn't ask to be brought into this world neither were they so some people bring them and then they just throw them out there on their own so i just say let's look at it and see what's not working and take it from there before we throw in the towel thank you ma'am vice mayor harriet commissioner lully commissioner santiago then commissioner hollinson all right a couple couple topics i think i agree with everybody that's spoken already but i think i'm going to sum it up i'd like to see a report on the pilot program successes failures um i think 30 days should be sufficient or the meeting thereabouts um i think that we need to update the ordinance make it more specific i think those updates need to include the objective of reducing the cat population that is the whole goal of the tnr program is to reduce the cat population it also needs to include i don't know that we need to identify the individuals that are feeding but we need to identify the the cat colony areas the city is not one big colony we need to identify the individual colonies so that we can address them we have people coming in from other cities locations to be cats so we have no idea who they are and that's why we need to register and that's unacceptable yeah so i think it's important that um there is some sort of registration component whether it is includes individuals or not i think it it the very least has to include designated colony locations and that way outside of that colony we can enforce the no feeding we're not trying to spread this around we're trying to isolate it to specific colonies and that way another thing that the ordinance needs to to include is a component for staff to to provide oversight on these colonies that way staff is the one that goes in and does uh some sort of observation on a regular basis whether it's bi-weekly or monthly to identify that whether a colony is growing or shrinking or there's new cats that need to be focused on trapping or not that that's got to be included in the ordinance it's oversight by staff and then i would like to see an ordinance also include a very clear uh relationship between city responsibility and the partnership with the non-profits um and then i would like to um it to also include not the specific non-profit names but requirements that those non-profits must meet to ensure that the people that the city are is doing business with um that are essentially representing the city by proxy are of the you know utmost standard that's all i have mayor commissioner lowley thank you mayor um i echo the sentiments of the last two commissioners the three who spoke um i'm also an animal lover um when i moved here i i didn't understand the the until i moved here i didn't understand the uh really size of the issue here until i moved in and there's like all these cats all over my street and i mean they i feel bad because um i do love animals and you know they come up to me and yesterday one actually brought me a present of this is for real of a ring neck snake so um that's not nice for my uh few little dogs they don't have to deal with the snakes because the cats take care of them so we do appreciate that but um just for the commission's awareness and i just pulled it up um the port orange um ordinance is section 10-22 if anyone wanted to look into it it's just titled community cat program and it looks like i think it touches on a lot of what we've just talked about um certainly we can enhance it for our city's purposes but i think it touches on a lot of what we talked about and i think one of it has been a disservice to the volunteers and the city um that it has been such a loose program and it's not anyone's fault it just it said it was launched as a pilot program and it just it it never went any further than that so we haven't had the structure in place i think to uh regulate it and um be able to monitor it commissioner santiago thank you mayor i agree with the last three commissioners um bringing it back within 30 days taking a look at um other programs that we can uh include in the city danny i do want to say one quick thing i appreciate um everything you do along with um renee because i know it's a lot thank you to deal with so thank you to your staff i think that's accurate by the rest of our yes yes um but other than that um just within 30 days and please let us know if there's anything else that we're missing we need to include let us know within that 30 days okay thank you and renee is in the audience back there thank you renee commissioner howington i i agree with everything that's been said here so far i agree with everything that's been said by everyone i agree we should be bringing this back for more workshop topics um i'm a dog lover not so much cat lover but i have had cats for a very long time um i have a concern that we have started this program we have cats that essentially have been taken in by the city of deltona and they're essentially now are cats through the tnr program so we need to be very careful about how we move forward because if a resident were to abandon their cat that would be animal abuse so as a commission who has determined that we are taking possession of these animals and caring for them we need to take that very seriously and please don't skewer me on this one i would like to see a sanctuary somewhere potentially i know we have the property that's out by the waste water treatment plant and if we have an area where we can contend they can live and they can still roam and have land hunt do the things that they do we can control the population we can monitor we can monitor their health we can ensure that the animals that are there are the animals that have entered the tnr program we can utilize volunteer programs to work with us you know we can use city staff but at least then we know where the colony is and i'm not saying just give them a tiny little space we can invest in a pole barn this completely enclosed have it with air conditioning heat so just i want to make sure that we're thinking outside the box just putting them out into the wild i got a phone call the other day from somebody who had one of these animals that was mauled by a dog so can we help this situation because it's not just protecting the animals from the environment and the situation that they're in we've taken possession of these animals and we need to ensure that we're not growing the population to your point thank you um and in order to control that population we need to know where the colony is be actively involved and determine how to move forward and and keeping the best interest of these cats that have been in the process for the past several years so um i'll say something then commissioner vila vasquez and vice mayor harriet what would i like to see is have you guys run into any situations where you run into um any of the cats and you've scanned them to see if they've had microchips i'm sure you guys do that anyway we scan unfortunately when it comes to sick or injured um if they're feral they're kind of hard to scan to get close enough um but yes the only time we do pick up is because they're sick or injured we do scan them um the same thing with the dogs um when we pick them up yes that's the only time we do it i ask that because if if if we can add that as an option that we can look at as part of a way to ensure because i've seen and i've seen this right where we have some residents that taken whether it's a cat or a dog but the subject is cats right they take in a cat they like it feed it take care of it until they become a nuisance to them um and then they just let it go out in the city uh to fend for themselves right um if there's a way we can um i guess what's the word i'm looking for um kind of issue a penalty or something for those people that are doing that it it incentivizes people to really think about if they're going to bring an animal they should keep it right um and i've spoken to a lot of folks that uh probably you know uh don't want to see who they are but they have worked in the tnr program that have said that they you know that some of the cats look like they used to be you know a domesticated cat not feral cats right so if we can look into something like that where listen you let go of a cat that used to be yours we find the microchip you're going to get hit with 150 fine something around that lane right i don't know if that's something that legal can advise us before we give direction to staff or something that we can at least look at we do that we do have that in the ordinance right now when it comes to um if we have shown proof that this is an actually owned animal by a scan there we have an ordinance of eight cats and dogs have to be properly contained to the property within a fence scenario you know so there is an ordinance that we do that helps us identify whether i mean the owner might have lost the cat too sure and trying to get um that's one of the main reasons of course um microchipping now to get that pet back to the owner as quickly as possible and try to avoid taking it to the humane society and um okay but yes we we do have that in the ordinance right now are we practicing that yes so when it comes to cats though unfortunately it's not until we either it's either sick or injured when we pick them up yeah check and we check yeah because you're difficult to catch i'm sure yes so i you know there's a lot of concerns that are being brought up obviously you know um one of the discussions i i had a resident that showed me a video of uh of of their cat being mauled by a coyote and i know that's not something happens every day but we have to be mindful that um you know that the cat colony could be unless we control the growth which is what i hope we're trying to do here um is going to continue to attract some of these predators right and and that's what we're trying to avoid and i personally have heard a cat being mauled by a coyote so it's not too far of an extreme as some might think and it's horrible and it's horrible because some of these cats that are let go by some people that might have owned them in the past some of them are declawed so they have no ways to defend themselves others uh still have their protections but coyotes are vicious and and i'm sorry i have personally seen and i was kind of poking in front of the person i'm not going to say what it is to avoid controversy seeing somebody drop off cats literally right here why i have no idea on god's green earth why they would drop off cats here at the preserve or anywhere near there where they know there's wild coyotes out there so uh for those that are hearing if you're planning to do that just i guess contact renee or something but uh it's it's not a good plan and if we're practicing that scan thing that we we really need to make sure that even for the cats maybe we're a little bit stronger on it to see if we can catch some of the residents or past residents dropping off cats so commissioner vila vasquez and vice mayor here thank you mayor um so i'm just curious to find out when the vice mayor says non-profit organizations what are you referring to i've not known any non-profit organizations getting involved other than just regular resident volunteering uh to do that these things i'm just maybe i didn't know that there were non-profit organizations involved in this we have non-profit organizations yes okay all right i wasn't sure i've always known that it was just just local residents who volunteered to do this um and do we have the names and contact information of these non-profits most of the volunteers belong to non-profits they do okay um and um i can't verify that okay i don't have that information but most of them when i do speak to them some of them belong most of them belong to some belong to a non-profit okay because i know i went to uh tnr meeting one time i think uh when you first started and i just want to let everybody know danny was thrown into this danny was not uh involved with the tnr project when it started so he came to him when he got promoted into this position um and so i know that back in the days it was just volunteers regular local residents who volunteer and form a group to do all this stuff uh with the cats um so is in the non-profits or the organization is there one person that reports to the city on what's going on or do the non-profits don't report to us it's the volunteers that report to us i think that's where when i made my comment that's what i was uh alluding to was that there needed to be within the ordinance more organization outlined as to the relationship between the city right and that's what i was getting at maybe there should be a group of volunteers but one person to contact the city this way there's no information lost uh between the organ you know the organizations and the city um the other thing is that may have cast on get killed by by um coyotes they get killed by loose dogs too with irresponsible owners who leave their dogs outside i mean the other day i got a call with three dogs this big trying to dig into a fence to get into the other side for another little dog that was on the other side so um it goes both ways it goes for cat owners and dog owners and uh so i'm just trying to come up with something that we can still communicate with these uh people who are trying to assist the city because they're really assisting the city in this they're just volunteering they don't get paid and so if we work with them and have one person come to the meetings um wherever you want uh have meetings and just give a report of the colonies and what they see where they feel they need some help from the city and um and stuff like that maybe you know part of the uh the report that we're asking for so we'll see a change thank you mayor vice mayor harriet thank you mayor um i in my comments when when i made the comment about wanting to have these areas identified have these um colonies identified i think it's important that we continue to look at things at a colony basis and not the city an overall city basis and i want to be clear i do not want this program to be on the backs of volunteers it is not the responsibility of volunteers to oversee the program to you know report back to the city on this i truly don't um don't think that that's appropriate i think that we need to require that colonies be registered and identified if if we have a point of contact for a colony that is a volunteer or resident i think that's great but we need to have these these colonies identified so that we can have a staff member that goes out to the colony on on a monthly or bi-weekly basis that can observe the colony and say okay we've got you know every cat or or i think uh at one point i had heard that we had to have like 60 percent of the cats in a colony um 75 okay that have to be uh spayed in order to achieve a decrease in population and so confirming that needs to be the responsibility of the city and so i don't want to leave that up to volunteers right we can't direct volunteers we can direct staff or we can direct you know what i mean so um but i think that that needs to be part of the ordinance is laying out that program so that there are requirements that colonies be registered that way staff then can go monitor those colonies to make sure that we are are spaying the appropriate number and if if they identify that there are cats there that don't have ear chips or ear the ears tipped then we can work with the volunteers to get those trapped to get those spayed so that we are are truly working on that goal of reducing those populations um some of the other things that i think whether they're in the tnr are uh ordinance or whether they're in a different part of the ordinance i would like to see um heftier fines for abandoning animals and i'd like to see that on graduated basis i think that that only works if they are are chipped so i would also like to see the city put together a plan to do maybe biannual um microchipping scenario or events i think microchips are like five bucks a microchip it doesn't cost a whole lot it's it's pennies compared to the cost of the problem um so i i think that it would be phenomenal for the city to sponsor that and then i would like to see also somewhere in policy a requirement for all outdoor cats regardless of feral or owned they all must be microchipped um so that way every cat in the city that could be caught outside is either going to be ear tipped or microchipped and if that says if that's not the case then they need to go to the humane society and be ear tipped and spayed or an owner needs to come forward and in order to get their dog back it's a hefty or their cat back it's a hefty fine and if they and if it happens again we won't give them back until they have a microchip and when it happens again if it happens again the fine gets heftier you know and then they'll abandon the animal and we're trying not to get away from that and that's fine i like the idea what you're saying about helping assisting with with the other ones well and and at that point if they decide that at that point they want to abandon the animal then the fine doubles and at that point then we then we can address that but there needs to be there needs to be a revenue stream because this program is going to cost us money i don't want to hide that this is not going to be a free program this is going to this is going to cost us money this is going to cost us staff time this is going to add staff likely but the it's been very clear and i think all the commissioners everybody agrees that this is becoming an unmanageable problem and and it's affecting tons of residents it's personally affected me i've got commercial businesses in my district that are are affected by this um i hear constantly it's about 50 50 right i've got i don't know about the other commissioners but i receive about 50 of the complaints i receive are we love the cats you can't do anything to them the other 50 and it might even be 60 40 get rid of the cats we don't care about tnr just kill them and get rid of them but we have to strike that balance and i think through this ordinance and uh increasing fines and you know putting in place the monitoring components so that we can properly address it is how we do it thank you and uh just to add we did provide two um last year with two um local shot clinics with which provided free microchipping perfect events i'd love to see that expanded and that's maybe we were those in in the city yes sir okay awesome mr mayor if i may with respect to the fines and and to address both your points what if you had in the ordinance an annual amnesty so if your cat gets lost once a year that first time you get to pick it up for free as long as it gets microchipped and then if it happens again then there's a fine because i understand there's sensitivity about yeah cost and sometimes animals get out yeah and i think that's great i appreciate that input i i'm very supportive of that so danny quick question for you right now when a dog or a cat gets loose um what do we do just call the owner if we find the owner that is correct so first thing we do once we have the animal impounded most of the time it's dogs you know um we'll scan for chip take a picture we we post that photo of the dog on um on our facebook page so we're hoping the owners call it's about 30 percent positive because we get some owners that hey you know that's my dog and you know um but yeah there's still we still take a lot of animals to the humane society of course microchipping it's available but unfortunately a lot of times microchipping information is not up to date you know we get excited to say microchip oh great and it's not just scanning is going to give me the owner's information no this microchip all it is is a number the officer still has to do homework after that it's not a one you know quick thing um we're hoping the company that has them uh owns that microchip is available um we we call that number um hope and hopefully that information on the microchip is up to date um so yes we do hit obstacles but um hopefully most of the time and like 30 about 30 percent chance we do get the owners before they take that pet to the humane society so i have experience so palm beach county has a program that when they catch an animal regardless of if it's a dog or a cat um they spay and neuter it automatically that and then they charge you a fee i know because my aunt had that situation she had a she had she has a boxer it somehow jumped to like an eight foot fence that she got a special thing for and palm beach county caught it they neutered him and she was charged 100 and something about the cost of the neuter and she picked up her dog absolutely not for dogs but no no no but i'm saying in in the we're so we're trying to bring this back to tnr i'm just wondering if that's something similar that we can do if we're trying to reduce the population we could look into that i know there's been obstacles with the humane society they can't make an owner spay their animal do have ordinances we can write citations but still again i can't make that owner i can write them have defined every time it gets out that's one of the ordinances we check you know we should check rabies up to date rabies vaccination see licensing speed of neuter we take them to court because those are issued by citations which is heard in front of a county judge and um yes it could be hefty fines but we still cannot make i would have to get with the humane society and see how that protocol will work on us and i'll get with the attorney for that too i think let's get with this let's get with legal on that because i think that with an ordinance you can um and i support that 100 for cats but not for dogs that if you have an outdoor cat to me that tells me that you don't really care that much about your cat and the cat needs to be fixed um but dogs that are contained and that's it's very different between dogs and cats i was just using that as an example from the experience that i currently do not see that happening within vidusa county and we use halifax humane society as our animal impound um but they don't do that okay got it commissioner vila vasquez and commissioner cobalt did you want to speak as well if i made one thing just before just so you all know um based on the size of our city i know you were talking about fines for mistreatment or abandonment um we can increase our fines substantively so under florida statutes because we have more than 50 000 people with a majority plus one of this governing body so it'd be five super majority um we could have fines that shall not exceed a thousand dollars per day per violation five thousand per day per violation for repeat violation so i'm not saying we have to go that high but um we could we we have under the state statute the authority to increase our fines for those types of things or any of these things that you think are appropriate substantively which to your point this will this will increase cost right increased services increased cost so perhaps as a way to defray some of those costs commissioner vila vasquez and commissioner cobalt thank you mayor um danny does uh the vets do they do the microchip also i i think they do i don't we don't um i don't meet them for any of those now i know that staff does them right your staff um no we the last two events we used staff from from volusia county they've done it the experience um i might look into training for our guys so they could it's really easy i've done it yeah i just want to be i'll get with legal to make sure we're covered if we want to start doing that ourselves ma'am thank you uh you can use this if you're right here you just take this one i know that um this is uh probably not something that can be done in the city of deltona but i know that back in the days when i lived in new jersey you had to register your animal with the city and every year if you did not renew your registration they would come knocking on your door i know that right now with a population of over a hundred thousand residents probably hard um but is there something we can start uh like that we currently do um but do you keep track of who has not renewed their registration yes a letter gets sent out i believe it's 30 days prior to the expiration date because it expires the date a year 365 days after you get issued that a license city animal license um when you in order to attain for dogs and cats dog and cats correct and in order for you to get that license you have to your rabies vaccination has to be up to date so yes that helps us out when it comes to those two ordinances to enforce um yes so when they get their rabies shots and everything at their doctor that information gets sent to the city we we do both uh sometimes if they get licenses for the local vets we have a couple vets that provide the city license or they bring that proof from the vet to city hall and can provide them a license there okay thank you and this also helps i'm trying to find the owners if that if hoping because if there's no chip but you have a registration in front you know on on file then uh it would be easy for your staff as well thank you commissioner caldwell my first question um how do you follow up on people coming into the the city as far as getting them registered and stuff oh you know in our database we would schedule that once they obtain that license we would schedule it um not 365 at 30 days prior to that that way we'll and what we'll do is staff will send a letter out say hey your license about to expire within 30 days i'm thinking it's 30 days um and that way once that license let's just say if it gets renewed good we reschedule a new uh re-inspect the following year for the following year if they don't get it that's fine for the people that apply but how do we know like the house next door doesn't have a pet or dog that's not registered well we address these when let's say when the dog we do have a complaint on a on an animal a cat or dog if it has to do with it's a bite case or the dog is found wandering loose this is when the officer opens up three cases just to make sure make sure they're up to date we raise vaccination um city license and address the at large which is the violent another violation um most of the time if it's just the first time we'll probably just say hey no violation but yes you need to get these two if it's a reply violation it's a reap a repeat violation when it comes to at large that's when we use the punitive you know the fines for it right now it's 150 if your dog is found loose we do advertise that information when we put it on on facebook too you know you may be issued a fine due to the you know um due to the your dog be one loose um so it's that information is out there i know we're working up good i will say this so to your point the people that are taking their dog to a vet or cat to a vet to get it spayed and get it frailty shot and get its tag they're not the typically not the problem because they have the wherewithal and they care enough to do that the challenge is that you have so many people particularly because we have a lot of large lots a lot of land and people can just have cats and they have babies and then they just run around and they just run free um and they those even if they intend to try to do it if they're babies they can just get away and then they're out um i think if you want to try to incentivize people to register you have to think about that when you draft an ordinance maybe i don't know the first month of the year all registrations are half off or or if your dog is registered and we catch it loose the first time it's caught it's no fine like there's you got to give them a carrot because it's an account in a city this big with this many people it's very hard to use a stick because you often can't even see how many pets your neighbors might have like maybe they've got one registered but right or there's a bunch in the back that or they're in a k or in a pen or whatever and they can't be seen they'll say i don't have the money so keep it i know we're also working on a rental policy um is there any way we can implement some type of registration that's mandatory for the renters um through these agencies that are renting them i know part of the problem is there's a lot of abandonment and a lot of the moving coming in and out right i mean the challenge with animals is they're transitory and they can be acquired anytime so someone can be in a house for six months have no pets and then get a pet in like an hour i think through a rental policy we're going to start doing our inspections annual inspections so we'd be able to find out if they have no pets registered then obviously there's a cat or dog in the house i see what you're saying so in that maybe tie it so that when we do your annual visit to your rental property if there's any pets they will be checked to ensure they're registered yes we could work certainly yeah we could work with code enforcement and if any fines ensued how would we how would we proceed with that would it be through the rental agency or the individual owners maybe through code enforcement most of the houses are rented privately i mean i know there's some companies but it's a lot of just private owners doing these rentals um it would just be code enforcement would like any other code enforcement civil citation thank you thank you so a couple things on that the scanners the chip scanners are only a few hundred bucks like six five six seven hundred bucks uh i think that'd be really easy to just provide an inspector i think we have some we don't have enough we have one assigned to every animal control vehicle and i think we provided one to the fire department just in case they bring us somebody brings to the fire station um but yeah i believe the last one we bought was 350 dollars yeah they're not they're not a lot so that'd be to to your point when we're when we work on this rental ordinance if uh i think every inspector that's doing inspections on rental properties should absolutely have a chip chip reader and um i'm very much against the forced spay and neuter of dogs but i am not against the forced chipping of any pet period um i think also we need to uh to the city attorney's point um incentivize chipping and registration what's the current cost to register a cat or dog in the city if it's spayed or neutered it's only five dollars okay if it's not spayed or ten dollars okay and and they can go online and do that yes okay excuse me i think we should make it zero to register because the five and ten dollars is really not going to cover a whole lot let's just make it zero make it easy i like the idea of making uh registrations all at the same time and not throughout the year you know the first of the year similar to the the beach passes or whatnot they all expire december 31st that that way it's easy and it doesn't cost any money so that if you come in in november you're not paying a fee for just one month there's there's no concerns with that and then um give the animal control officers uh easy access to register animals while they're out um if they come across an unregistered animal then it should be very easy for them to to get the you know pull out an ipad air or something and go through the process with the owner right then right there bada boom we've now documented that that animal is belongs to this address and this person and they are the responsible party um the inspections that there was a mention of inspections with pet fee with pet registration is there are there any there is no inspection okay um the only the only thing we provide is a proof of rabies infection and it's current has been current perfect okay um i had another thought but but yeah look i think making the process easy up front is the the most important thing i mean let's let's take the the minimal cost out of it let's make it really easy for these inspectors um or the the animal control officers to register dogs and cats as they come across them um and uh oh um the comment that you made about um the information making sure that the information is reliable on the microchips i would like to see our animal control staff get trained to provide the microchip and and uh more or less install it's just an injection into their shoulder between their shoulder blades um and then they can put all that information in before they leave the animal that way they can they can confirm that there's owner contact that there's an address associated with it that you know all of those data points are in it and it's not up to the owner to go in and continue the step they can put all that information in right then and right there when they when they uh insert the microchip that way we can confirm that we've got the information so thank you danny thank you mayor commissioner vila vasquez thank you mayor so inserting something in somebody's panel isn't that putting the city in some kind of uh legal isn't that i think you were looking that up huh okay so a couple things if i may before i get to that so just a flag on the rentals um we're you know we're still in the process they're going to do the inspection at the property turnover so there's not going to be anyone in the house so it wouldn't make sense to have it be tied because the house will be it'll be empty at the time and it's just for life safety so there won't be any humans and pets but i thought we were going to go to yeah i think we need to discuss that one a little further we talked about an annual or yeah we can look into it there is some concern about the government overreach though so we gotta we gotta come back on that one um yeah microchips uh i don't i mean we would have to look into if we can require a microchip microchips so the problem with animals is there's they're not humans and they're hard to track they're hard to locate they can be disposed or moved very easily no one's well the question i'm sorry the question is can is it advisable to have our staff microchip somebody else's animal there's no problem there's too many people speaking out once hold on yeah certainly there are many animal control agencies that microchip i mean i'm gonna be honest i know how to microchip an animal it's it's it's a relatively simple process the challenge though is the microchip data right and ensuring it's updated and here here's the problem right i have a pet and i move away and i give my pet to my neighbor and i the microchip is still registered to me but now i'm in alaska and the neighbor has the cat and the cat's safe but if it gets lost that chip because the new owner who's a very nice person but maybe they don't they don't know to to update it these are great ideas i'm just letting you know that there's not a clean very enforceable solution to any of this it's going to be an amalgamation of carrot stick you do your best you encourage residents to comply but is there a liability on the city if one of our staff inserts a microchip in an animal that's i would imagine that if it is a owned by a person and the person consents to it it's probably minimal to none um i mean again i think other counties that are cities that have animal control if they find a loose pet they have the right to microchip it and often spay and neuter it if it's loose um even without the consent of the owner so there's a you have to remember and right or wrong pets in florida are are property they're not humans and so we can treat them like property right so that's why if you find a loose one and you don't know who its owner is you can spay it neuter it microchip it and when the owner comes back they say what are you talking about this was my prized bloodhound i was going to breed it well it was a loose animal you know a loose it's like finding a truck right on the side of the road right i understand it's a dog but i'm just telling you it's these are excellent ideas i think the liability is very low it happens a lot a lot of places do it i just want to be i think a lot of these ideas are going to be great and we can put them in a new ordinance i just it's a complicated problem there's a reason why no one has solved it to my knowledge in america you do your best and i think a lot of these things will and i honestly i think discussions like this and encouraging people to do this and having incentivizing them in the ordinance so that there's incentive for them to do this will help so we're clear for to staff right the direction is to bring us a report within 30 days please correct me if i'm wrong because there's a lot of stuff that was said when the as soon as the report's finished may or better so we're not stuck on the 30-day concept 30 days thereabouts thereabouts thereabouts okay yes we're using a non-word words whatever um 30 days thereabouts and then uh are we rehashing or relooking at that port orange uh ordinance that they have i would say updating our ordinance okay not looking at anybody specifically we should definitely review those and see if there's anything yeah because i mean if it's working i mean i understand it's a different city it might not work for us but if it's working we should review update our ordinances um i don't want to copy any any other person's ordinance we need to might be some aspects of it yes okay so danny do you have any more questions as to what else you need because i know a lot of stuff i see you writing but yeah i wrote a lot of stuff there you know i'll get with back on this and make it happen i have one more question you mean let me push the button no no okay um we can't danny i got a question for you obviously you guys if we're going into chipping all the animals and stuff like that you guys have the readers if we're going to have registered agents feeders and things like that can we arm them with the devices to read this because i'm assuming they can get up closer to the animals than code enforcement can with a checkout system or something for the tnr volunteers the tnr volunteers correct we can we can make that work and that would determine what animals in there belong to who or where okay so you have any other questions before we go to the next subject i do have a quick question just to confirm so we're going to work with animal control on a new ordinance or a new ordinance to for tnr to mirror orange city no not mirror anybody yeah take concepts that work and create deltona's ordinance correct okay very good we will do our best and bring it to you uh it might be a couple revisions just to be clear i know like in the port orange thing they had limits on the animals that could be in a colony which is that is correct they even gave restriction on residential and commercials how many they can have in those areas if we're going to have something we could adapt i think if we're going to have something like that then we need to very be very clear on what's going to happen when that colony reaches a limit as to what happens next so are we notified by the way just and i know we're trying to move on but are we notifying the property owners around the areas where these colonies are we we have to date we have not sir i think that should be a component that should be a component because before i forget one of the people that did reach out uh lives in district four by fresco and moss there is i believe and i could be wrong i'm going by what i'm being told there's a cat colony in that area and uh she she has a child that she can't get doctors to come to look at her kid anymore because they keep scraping their cars so i mean that might be an off thing but you know make that part of it that we need to notify wherever we need approval from the property owner where those colonies are at to be approved that those cats should be there okay perfect all right so you have direction all right moving on to the next subject thank you uh two no smoking in parks there's public comment at the end of the portion of all the subjects there's public comment at the end mark thank you thank you mayor good afternoon mayor commission um the order the statute before you is for us to restrict smoking vaping at our parks and facilities uh the parks statewide association has been asking for this for well over a decade the house and senate have finally passed that statute which is before you we are looking for consensus from the commission so we can develop our own ordinance to make that happen okay commissioner cole the uh obviously we're gonna if we're gonna pass we're gonna post this in the uh on all the parts and stuff we're gonna put in multiple languages yes we will have signage in multiple languages yes all right that's all right so let me ask the let me ask the silly question does it include all type of smoking vaping it's smoking and vaping but there is an exception the the house and senate passed regarding unfiltered cigars okay and doc is a big fan of that so that's allowed yeah so let me ask you let me be a little bit more clear and i know this is probably i know the answer to it but can we make sure the public knows the answer to this there's no smoking marijuana in the parks there is no that is correct west crowd i hate to bring it i love that part because i go there with my daughters but holy crap you think specific law firm was there pushing the i'm not going to mention it we certainly try to partner with our law enforcement um to to limit that but uh as you know the resources are stretched in when it comes to that but we do try to stay on top of that as much as possible commissioner thank you thank you mayor um i strongly support this um i'm glad that we talked about the different ways it was covered terrific suggestion about multilingual signage i think that's great um i certainly would like to see this as as you know strong as possible even outside of this we could look at in the future as well instead of just the parks or um where parks maintain certain properties we're talking about this campus as well um i would be interested in seeing that so i think this is terrific and as some of us have met with the um coalition who has been working with municipalities on this i met with them uh thank them for uh bringing some of this information to us and with support seeing this brought back to us for passage thank you commissioner colwell and commissioner vila vasquez you kind of mentioned at the end of his comment there about enforcement how will this be enforced that's something we'll have to work with with our law enforcement partners to determine that and that'll be part of the ordinance options we give you guys on how we're going to enforce that so what would the possibilities look like i mean would the law enforcement issue citations at the that is that is what we'll be shooting for yes sir all right thank you commissioner vila vasquez thank you mayor so i'm not a smoker so what is non-filter so i can so we're actually up there there's a state rep right now that's helping pass a um the bill is being heard i don't i don't know if it'll go through there or not but it's apparently is you do you want to try to explain it because i don't smoke either but he showed us what it looked like and it's to help it's more traditional cigars are allowed any rolled cigars marijuana cigarettes are not filter either no it specifically says cigars it's the way they pass the law seriously yeah so just regular standard hand-rolled cigars are are permitted what you'd see normally you roll marijuana cigarettes you have to see one that you roll it literally says cigars only it does not say marijuana okay well just for clarity the there is no recreational smoking of marijuana in florida and the medical marijuana law is pretty stringent that people are not supposed to be doing that in parks public parks and so they can be cited right now for that under the current medical marijuana law thank you that was my next question okay okay i think uh we're we're all in agreement and i want to tell you we'll be honest with you i'd rather have somebody smoking a cigarette next to me than a freaking cigar let me just say this so yeah people take that personal yeah yesterday i don't care yesterday i was in the park with my two daughters and uh there was a gentleman smoking a black and mild my oldest daughter who's only three started yelling ew what's that that's the smell right it's they were literally sitting in front of the bench at westcrawl park and there was other kids there so i mean i can't i'm sorry david if you're here it'd be a filter cigar wouldn't it it was a black and mild i just want to make sure that whatever the the ordinance that we develop and come up with um can be enforced by code enforcement as well as the sheriff's office and uh cannot can't can't i think it should be in all parts absolutely absolutely did you say code enforcement vice mayor code enforcement and the sheriff's office okay okay so i think we all gave clear-cut direction right are we going to be able to um speak to um vso about this about get their point of view on this how they will be handling it when the ordinance comes back to us can we make sure that we get their opinion piece on that as well we'll be meeting with them while we're the drafting the ordinance as well we'll be meeting with the captain the lieutenants and the sergeants so yes thank you all right can uh everyone good with moving to the next all right we're moving to code and parks future concerns this was i think just a grab bag for anything off the top for those two items those two departments is there anything specific that would want to be brought up but i think it's in a different area or is it not i believe it's not so anything for code or parks specifically echo funding is what i was going to talk about for future concerns so obviously our city manager 10 months into it um i want us to set them up for success um so if we can just as a suggestion to bring towards us whenever echo funds are up to apply i would like to see us at least have two projects uh regarding parks that we can probably present so that we just don't not apply you know it's money that we can get i know you have a i've seen some drafts i believe some other commissioners i've seen it about pickleball and all this other stuff and um and i know you thought about it as well but i just i wanted her to be clear cut that whenever echo funds are up for grabs there should be at least two two different projects coming from staff to you and then so we can look at it as a commission so then if it needs to be right so we can move forward and make sure that we are getting echo funds august i believe is the the classes uh we have just also employed a grant writer that's going to help us across the board and we can at least announce this morning we've received 139 000 139 for the windows here at city hall has just come through we haven't put that out yet publicly we're going to discuss at the next meeting and there's another one that's quite large that i think we'll bring up at the next public meeting awesome so if the rest of the commission is okay with that i mean i think that's that's just to make sure that we continue to get funding and improve and update our parks vice mayor harriet and commissioner on that side note just real quick as you mentioned about the parks uh we're meeting next week with parks and recreation within the month we're going to be advertising for parks meetings a couple of them around the city to discuss renovations of all the different parks and then bring it back to the commission for consideration so we invest money into our parks in this next year would some of that include the ada that we've already done studies on yes and then that's that's setting us up for the echo funding additionally vice mayor harriet commissioner vila vasquez and commissioner lovey awesome just want to kind of tie some of that together um i love the idea of bringing back multiple or uh two or sorry excuse me submitting two parks per for echo funding every time opportunity is open um i also want to make sure that we're not tying ourselves to that please don't sue us um i don't i want to make sure that we're not we're not just submitting projects to submit projects oh no no these will be for some upgrades we're planning on doing yeah so i i understand i'm on board with the plan i think it's phenomenal i'd like to see a commission workshop after the community meetings so that we can all sit and discuss um and i know that that we want to pursue the bigger projects those are going to take some more time need a lot more input but i'd also like to see us um improve a lot of the smaller parks we got a lot of pocket parks a lot of neighborhood parks um the montecito park is phenomenal but i think there's some a little bit of work that can be done out there that's that's just small stuff um but i'd like to i'd like to see a plan a rough plan on what that would look like across the city so but i think you're doing a great job i'm looking forward to the upgrades um commissioner vila basquez thank you vice mayor so as far as i know that we spoke about the grant writer that was hired which i think is excellent um how are we prioritizing all these projects because i know that my lake shore has been bleeding for many years and i know that it falls into these echo grants so how do we prioritize these projects well lake shore park we're meeting this week with the developers uh to come back to the commission with consideration because we have potential lawsuits out for that whole construction project uh we're hoping to uh come come back with a positive decision working with the same people and try to avoid legal issues and to still complete the 4b project which is all the boat ramp all the way up into the uh the rib rib section uh the park system as we talked about will be coming back to the commission uh i'm not sure as far as uh you know having a workshop with the commission is what projects you guys want done more than the others as far as water projects as if there's anything specific is there something besides the 4b we all know about the 4b project but that's that's a hole that just keeps uh money and i just keep seeing more projects being worked on and more projects being finished and the 4b keeps going down and down and down and down now 4b is a major legal issue that's that's but it's taking a little we have to start it somehow but anyway i know that this tuesday's meeting yes another workshop so i just want to throw it out there let's keep the uh 4b project please uh it's been going on eight years old anything else no sir thank you thank you um i guess i'll bring this up now um one of the things that i um after the zone overlay what i was hoping that we could work on next um was looking at um our tree fund and where we can start planning that um i think that ties in probably to the parks plan because parks are a wonderful place to plant some trees right so um if we could talk about that um i had thought maybe um you know each each commissioner um can you know select a spot um in their district where we could um implement some sort of new uh tree project um and so we look at that being you know certain native species that work in the specific areas where we're targeting you know for example you wouldn't plant um uh you know like a magnolia in a wetland and you would generally plant a bald cypress um in a low area so um looking at that and using some of those funds because i i understand the funds are there um i've been there for some time we i've heard heard that we haven't we haven't been using them um so i'd like to see that and again if that's whether it's a park um or another location each of our districts where we could pilot that um and select an area and and there are really good examples um throughout the region of really good landscape there's even some in our city i mean if you go look at um commissioner howington the mcdonald's at normandy and um providence what they did there with their with their landscaping and their trees is is a really good example of i think the direction we need to move they use a lot of natives and for the stormwater retention areas they put like fakahatchee grass and some other native plants that help absorb the nutrients um from the runoff so again if we could look at that whether that's parks or um you know other locations in each of our districts i'd like to see us focus on that okay so we're going to the next item uh legal ordinances ordinance violations sorry thank you very much um so we prepared a memorandum laying out the options uh the genesis of this was the um concern uh four six weeks ago regarding the noise ordinance um since then we've taken a a deeper look and gone through the code um our noise ordinance refers back to a um penalty section and that penalty section if you look at the second paragraph it's in italics it's city code section section section 1-15 it also if you go to the next page under general penalty there are other sections of the code of ordinances that refer back to that penalty section so it's chapter 50 solid ways chapter 14 dangerous dogs and actions chapter 10 amusements entertainment and block parties chapter 22 businesses chapter 34 emergency services so all of those places refer back to this penalty provision so we have a couple options uh and we can bring them if you give us some direction we can bring you a draft um one is to treat the noise ordinance by itself option two is to just revise the penalties for all of these issues option three is to treat the noise ordinance by itself resolve it and also revise the penalties for the other things um the real question is this the current penalty has been interpreted um by the sheriff's department and their general counsel that this is a a criminal misdemeanor and so the only way to prosecute under under this which is for all those sections not just noise is for us to have a contract with both the state attorney and a public defender's office we have been trying to work with them to get estimates um we have not successfully gotten any numbers yet but if we do that it's likely the cost is going to vary from year to year based on how many violations we bring it will be complicated it will be costly it is unlikely that we'll be able to recover the cost that we incur to enforce by the fines um since we're going to be paying lawyers on both sides of the table the prosecutors and public defenders some people might not qualify for a public defender but likely most will um the other issue is you'll be arresting and and prosecuting under misdemeanors residents um and maybe you're okay with that for some of these things maybe you're not so you can treat this how you want you can we can just deal with noise right now we and and but my recommendation is going to be to look at this section and to revise it to no longer have it be criminal misdemeanors for any of these things and to switch to escalating fines which can be issued by both the sheriff's department and co-enforcement and they'd be um then they could go to the special magistrate just like other civil violations um and they can be appealed to county court so we can put that in the ordinance i think that's their way to go okay we gave them two ordinances to look at for comparable areas fort myers and martin county um i didn't know if anyone had a preference for either of them they're they're similar um but so you you're you want to eliminate the misdemeanors generally yes i don't think we should be bright and misdemeanors or arresting anybody for before that's not our responsibility yeah um i agree with escalating fines yeah i think escalating fines let's handle it through the special magistrate let's move on i think we need to fix that yeah first and foremost for the um noise violation and then at the same time or immediately following work to fix that for the rest of the violations so if we revise this section 1-15 it will solve it for everything done and that it refers to which is noise and all the other and it's more cost effective as well right yeah yeah certainly and it's easier it's easier to actually we shouldn't be criminalizing it fits the role of a city it better fits the role of a city and their responsibility as a city and not uh we're not trying to criminalize our neighbors and we're not an hoa is there a point where it escalates that we can go to a plan b like a criminal penalty three times that's a i mean that's a hybrid model um i believe fort myers has that hybrid model um that's the one i like that are both just the hybrid i'll just tell you right now we could do that but it's gonna be both complicated and expensive no i'm saying not the hybrid portion i'm just saying that i like that more than the other city okay you like the fort myers ordinance better than martin county ordinance yes i don't i really don't want to turn this into a criminal thing okay um i think keeping it a city thing at what point is somebody who's gonna say the heck with you i think it goes to wouldn't it go to the magistrate magistrate meeting anyways no a criminal goes to no no i'm not talking about criminal i'm saying if they continue to do it would we not take them to a magistrate meeting if they're not paying their fines well and that's where that's where i think that the escalation needs to go to is go from the magistrate look if we give them three four five six times and they're not complying hit them with a lien it goes on the property and then and that's what i'm saying at what point do we set the limit at one two three four five so we can we can put it in there and we can make it consistent with some of our other ordinances that have that escalation yeah i will tell you one of the challenges is going to be leaning properties is a little easier because they're owners right um rentals but also the noise ordinance in particular can be visitors like someone you know i don't know just visiting who doesn't live here and doesn't have a lease here right exactly so they're visiting a property they're visiting a property right they could be visiting and staying in an airbnb but they could also just be visiting for the day like coming to see their relative they're visiting a property it's on the property it's the property owner's responsibility to make sure that they're good neighbors i agree okay so you want to tie it to the property owner regardless of the where that human resides yeah if they are associated i mean as long if they're if they're sitting in the middle of the lowe's parking lot and they're being absolutely absurd then it needs to it needs to be on the property owner of the lowe's parking lot that lowe's parking lot property owner then has the power to trespass them to get them to leave that's their criminal component that's not on the city to provide the criminal component it puts it back on the private side yeah okay sounds good and this is um set for a certain time of the day right it's not i mean if i have a little party in my backyard and davidson doesn't like the kids running around screaming should have invited me he's gonna call uh call compliance on me right that's a good question so i will tell you this our noise ordinance as drafted is excellent ordinance it's very good it's very comprehensive it's very detailed the issue is just the enforcement penalty so just so you know we put it as an attachment it's um it's like the first exhibit page three of nine of the current code chose basically the restrictions um 7 a.m to 10 p.m the sound level limit for residential is 60 decibels after 10 p.m to 6 a.m it's 55 decibels um so i mean danny probably can speak to us a little more because he goes out on these calls but um we do have you know we do have exceptions we have he gone i mean i don't know that there's anything particularly questionable in our ordinance that i mean that we've heard anyone raise if there's something that you don't like we can work on it as we do this going if it's going uh through the magistrate the do they follow our uh regulations and ordinance or do they uh come have their own set up they follow our escalate we hire and pay them yeah we'll it'll we'll put it in the penalty it'll explain the escalation and it will give the magistrate direction on the repeat offenders typically i think in our other places it's if it's three times it's a repeat offender and then it would escalate but we'll we'll make sure that it's um in conformity vice mayor oh sorry i'm sorry you're good in this case then a vso is out no they can still issue civil citations on the okay so if a resident calls 911 vso can act on it as opposed to the way it is now yes yes that's right and the joke is it's will they act on it they won't yeah that's that's the and i don't i don't want to say that it's the joke it's it's that they have the ability to whether that's viewed as their primary function and they will is something that we just have to work through the sheriff yeah no i think i think what's holding the sheriff's department back is that other um that piece that piece that we have yeah yeah this will empower the deputies correct and they can issue civil citation there's not going to be any uncertainty they don't have to worry about a prosecutor do we have all these things set up you can issue a ticket got it thank you vice mayor harriet then commissioner hollington i didn't talk about it i always talk uh the other thing that goes along with not just this item but a lot of the things that we're talking about um and i think commissioner lully can also agree with us is that we need to have a better public information campaign i think that this is one of the things that i've come to realize what especially with the noise ordinance stuff is that um that the only way for residents to make a complaint when this is happening after hours because this is happening after 6 p.m. when code enforcement office office is closed is to call the non-emergency dispatch line and then they tell dispatch that they need a sheriff's deputy out here because this is going on well what they really need to be telling dispatch is that they need the on-call code enforcement officer to come and address it um so i think everything that we're talking about we just need to have a very um dynamic and thorough public information campaign to share the information on how the process works so if a resident does have a noise complaint or in the future uh complaint about somebody smoking in a park what is that next step for them to do who do they call and then i think we should also look at um improving our process on our end to to maybe have a answering service instead of routing it through dispatch we can have an answering service that would then screen the calls and then forward them to the on-call code enforcement officer i don't want to give out an on-call phone number because in that that code enforcement officer will be bombarded and just turn into a call taker but maybe streamlining that process the only other question that i have is do we have any or enough of the sound measuring devices to enforce the 55 decibels or 60 decibel limits and if we do then do we have enough and if we don't then i think we need to see that in the budget so that they can purchase them yeah yeah and just a flag so again our contract with the sheriff they provide 24 7 service so our code officers work their normal shift and when they're off shift the sheriff will and can and be this will empower them to go and do it we don't we don't need to have 24 7 code because we have 24 7 sheriff um i mean i will say in all things there's always right escalating priorities so if a 9-1-1 call for noise and a 9-1-1 for a shooting god forbid happens at the same time right it's gonna that's just how they run their business and right rightly so right so um but this will empower the sheriff which i think is our goal you can then write your civil citations and if it's 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night or 2 a.m things can be you know the deputies can go and they can handle this and have a very clear action they can take and this is something that general counsel for vso you know we've communicated with him about and they're on board with this commissioner howington uh thank you commissioner harriet for bringing up the decibel meters uh because i think we do need to make sure that at least here at our substation that the sheriff's office also has them as well because i'm actually meeting with a couple residents this week over complaints with code in that they are asserting that they are being targeted by calls and complaints coming in so to commissioner vila vasquez's point we need to make sure that somebody's not being targeted for having a birthday random birthday party or something and so we need to make sure that we have the right tools available to the people who are assisting us with the noise ordinance whether it's code or our sheriff's department so i agree i would like to see that within the budget as well and that's all i have thank you do you guys have the direction you need jemma yes thank you all right we're going to move over to c development 101 i believe jordan was going to start the conversation or our consultants coming shortly for sure that's a great clarification make sure the sheriff has the tools they were up and i can tell you this if they're any of the residents that i know are complaining the complaints are very very take the long roll gary you have the slides so are we doing uh one or did you want to because i think you were telling me we're going to switch something wrong so we're going to start with development 101 and then if um it's okay with the mayor and commission if we can then um dive into downtown plaza um before i introduce our consultants um so for development 101 we're going to be talking about the comprehensive plan and i think this is a timely discussion your comprehensive plan is your blueprint it's your vision for the future um and then you have your land development code that implements the um that implements the goals and policies of the comprehensive plan so i'd like to introduce um jason green and um katherine um the consultants that work on the um workshop vision um over the past summer so so just just for clarification i am switching one and two around right yes okay got it yes good afternoon yes i am jason green with access and uh kathy boss with me from jb pro we're part of your team that was working with you on the visioning component we've also kicked off and started on the comprehensive plan today we were asked basically to come in here and give you i guess a roundup or summary of what that vision will happen obviously many of you were there but just to kind of summarize those things uh kathy's going to walk through the uh the four workshops and some of the um components that came out of that uh one of our goals today well two of our goals today is to get confirmation from you uh about two of these things specifically the vision statement which came out of that effort and then the guiding principles and we also wanted to give you an opportunity to see what that means so sometimes it's just an example we may say yeah we're for environmental but when it comes to policy side what does that really mean so we're going to go through that for a little bit today so here's our agenda for for this part of it and then i guess with the switch we'll roll right into some downtown or urban center type things so we're going to go over the vision plan the vision statement the guiding principles some community conditions just to rehash some of that and then talk about the comprehensive plan that's ongoing now so i'll turn it over to kathy and she's going to walk through our vision component thank you council um you all know that we started last june um with four visioning exercises and in each one build on each other we started with getting understanding of ideas then we understood then we went to how do we implement those ideas um and then we really went into the details of what would be a strategic list of of initiatives that we would want and then we mapped them so we got a lot of great ideas um in workshop one this happened last june with our land use and character we heard you know a lot of the discussion that's been happening today about mixed use centers about environmental issues about parks about connectivity these were all the items um that really were brought home to us in the visioning exercises we know that you had an opportunity to sit at the tables we had about 60 people that that day it was a great um a great way to start and really flesh out what are the concerns that the deltona community is feeling and then in workshop two which we held in august we took those kind of general ideas and started bringing them down into what could what would become our guiding principles which we're going to talk about in a second we identified which ones were really the most important of all of the many ideas that were discussed in the at the june workshop which ones were the real priorities which ones connected to each other so that we could better flesh out and understand how do we move forward with them and then workshop three in october we took those ideas and we started to understand actionable items so of these priorities that the community had which ones of these would did we really want to focus on as we move forward with the comprehensive plan the land development code the capital improvement plan all of those uh implementing documents and and tools that the city has in its uh in its toolbox to make things happen and then in workshop four um the list became a series had became a map first we identified where these issues were happening and then how do we connect the implementation ideas that people had and initiatives they had to the map so that we specifically targeted things you know this morning we had a very robust discussion a good discussion about where should a mixed use center be and a number of you said well maybe there should be more than one mixed unit center and indeed that's what we heard when we went through this exercise from the beginning to the end people were saying that that they want areas that they can have walkability that they can have interconnectivity that connect to their homes in their neighborhoods where they already are they want to be able to be close to services they want to be close to where parks are and that may not be just one space you're a very big city and having one space is not probably the best idea and that's actually what the community said that's why you see multiple like little uh that you see the red in the in the kind of peachy um centers and centric areas those were areas that the community identified that they may be able to develop not a downtown but kind of what we call activity centers or commercial commercial nodes so the final workshop um this is what the community told us they wanted as their vision and this was very much written by them um at the third workshop they they gave us some language and then at the final fourth workshop we had a series of different languages and this is the one that was chosen vision 2050 in 2050 the city of deltona will be known as central florida's premier community for family friendly living and what does that mean we identified a series of guiding principles family friendly being first and then not only again did we identify that this would be a guiding principle but how would we do this through our implementation of our future land use element through the parks and recreation strategies through education and intergovernmental strategies and initiatives through design standards through code so this is this is not just about well this is a really good idea this is how do we make sure that these ideas become reality for the city of deltona and then the next one is about redeveloping recognizing that much of deltona currently has already been built out so how do we identify redevelopment strategies where can we develop in redevelopment strategies and that's not just of the areas that are built out but of the platted lands that haven't been built how do we identify something that's different than the vested rights the platted lot that we already have how can we encourage economic development how can we encourage a diversity of land use types how can we encourage a diversity of housing types and how does that all get connected and address through infrastructure systems where are where do we put our parks where do we put our schools where do we put our public utilities and making sure that all of that redevelopment can really be connected and served appropriately by our public services our next guiding principle is about walkable mixed use this is something we heard very very much from our community and for fact this morning i came in early last night so that i could wake up this morning and walk for eight miles of your city um and then and just really get a sense for myself as someone who doesn't live here i wanted to feel what people felt so i i walked through the neighborhoods and um and then i went on a tour afterwards of areas that i couldn't walk and this is you have some really great walkable areas already so the the foundation is there the basis is there but then how do you connect the walkable neighborhoods to your walkable centers that's going to be the trick that's the next step um as we as we work forward in this because we know that a vital community is based on a strong local economy jason's going to be showing some data that we've already done some assessments that we've already done to kind of give you a glimpse of what we're seeing um as we do our initial and our initial data analysis for the comprehensive plan that shows a lot of your local economy is leaving a lot of your people on a day-to-day base they don't stay here in deltona so those dollars are going somewhere else how do we bring them home how do we make sure that they're here so that we can provide the tax base that provides the services that the residents want and how do we provide multimodal connections so that people don't have to drive another one of the the statistics that jason is going to show in just a second is that you are a very vehicular centric um based and based because there is no real alternative uh community and you know that you know that you need to get a car to go just about everywhere and the community said they don't want that they want to be able to get things by a bike they want to get things by walking when i was out walking this morning part of my walk was on the trail and there were lots of people using the trail people want to get to be able to use those resources when they're provided so how do we provide them in places that connect their activity centers their commercial nodes their employment centers to their homes that's going to be the the trick going forward and by the way jason and i've done some research of your community and this is these ideas are not new you know you've heard these ideas you've talked about these ideas the problem has been so far is the connection between the idea generation and the implementation and so jason and jason and i are going to talk about and that's why we asked for the switch because we want to bring that discussion of your future land use and your mixed use nodes up into comprehensive plan we don't want those to be separate conversations we think they need to be tied together next thing we talk about is your natural assets you have great natural assets you've got green springs you've got the the river you've got many lakes you you have got great natural assets how do you embrace those in your connection how do people easily get from their their homes to them without having to go to a park to park their car so that they can get to the places that they want to get to how do we integrate those together and then finally infrastructure you know again i'm not telling you something that you don't know but the infrastructure systems and when we talk about infrastructure we're talking about all of your public services whether they're utilities whether they're schools whether they're police their fire whether they're parks all of those resources that your community needs how do we make sure that they are connected to the community so that they're providing for you not just today but long term so in order for us to complete this phase of your project which is the first one it's the vision phase we are going to ask you to just give a confirmation that we're on the right track and we're going to do that by first asking you to tell us that this vision statement is the vision statement that we should be building all of the other actions on because this will be the basis for everything we do and we want to make sure we've got it right i would say yes uh the rest of the commission i mean yes yes we still have one back there uh commissioner thank you we'll ask nick when he comes back okay we also are going to ask that these these guiding principles that we talked about family friendliness redevelopment mixed use uh local economy transfer multimodal transportation centers national natural assets and infrastructure systems that these are the guiding principles that we should be using to drive our activities moving forward yes yes is there anything we've missed i think there's some specific some specifics that i would like to see in some of those categories but the categories as a whole absolutely agree with all of them this was resident so let's talk about that do you want to do we can go through these one by one if that's the will yeah okay so let's go backwards yeah i think that's a great point because it's really especially we've talked about this internally but it's really important that you understand what that guiding principle means right the words mean one thing to something different to everybody so that's why these kind of just example strategies implementation strategies i think brings more color and feel to what it means it doesn't have to be exactly these words for the bullet points but this is the starting point of what will become a policy a goal objective policy i think the words here are generally good it's the like how those are enacted okay implemented is that implementation i think that's what they're going to talk about in the next yeah so we're actually going to be talking about that more but let's go through these one by one and just make sure that you agree these are the implementation strategies that again we're we are but a mirror to you and this is what we heard from the community through the workshops that we did that when we talk about family friendly we're talking about a desire to have some design standards especially in those developing mixed use nodes that there's a desire to have a range of housing opportunities jason's going to show you in a second that um your existing land uses and that's your not what is in your future land use or your zoning map but what you today have 49 so is single family homes so half of your community right now is in single family homes so this is where i i have comments on the specifics for each of these okay so are we going to review that in a later slide the specifics for each of these or would you know right now that's what that's what we're looking for if you want to go slide by slide what are the specifics of family friendly that you want us to focus on this before we proceed there if you can just go back to the mission statement really quick commissioner lully we all agreed but we want to get your input as well are you okay with this being what they build on for their vision 2020 uh 2050 which is we all just said yes yes yeah that's fine i just wanted to make sure thank you no i appreciate it yes i'll keep it i'll keep it simple yes okay keep it simple so so vision 2050 is in 2050 the city of deltona will be known as central florida's premier community for family friendly living all right and now is the question of how and why or how does that happen when we talk about family friendly these are the items that we have kind of generally talked about but what details do you want us to make sure that we take and put into policy into code into standard into your master planning efforts so one of the things that i'm not a huge fan of i don't really like our age restricted communities i don't like that we have i don't like the concept of sorry yeah i don't like the concept of a 55 plus community because you're putting a lot of a lot of one group into an area that then needs a lot of assistance or a higher potential for assistance i i think that in order to have a diverse community a diverse community to me means that you any given block has a wide range of life stages and and so that to me is important the way that we go about doing that i'm open to i i just i i would like to see us encourage or or discourage the you know age restricted communities um i agree with that for the simple fact that we're built out right now and i mean i get it some folks want to live in an age restricted community but at the same time you take away that available the little availability of land that we have left and you restrict it to an age this makes it it makes it difficult you're segregating a group of people and fostering community really is the the first line of defense is not calling 9-1-1 if you have an issue the first line of defense is hey can i call my neighbor and if your neighbor is in the same situation you are then that's yeah then then that's not uh i think it really goes against the idea of fostering a community environment uh by having those age restricted communities and i and i have the same thoughts quite frankly with um low-income housing i'm not a big fan i do not like low-income housing being segregated into one area i think that low-income housing really needs to be spread out amongst the community so that at no point can a child that is walking to school be picked on for oh hey you're coming from that community you're coming from that area no i'm coming from the same area is all of my neighbors and all of my friends and if there is a situation that arises then they can hopefully rely on the the neighbors to help before it becomes a burden on the taxpayers great other other thing where and we don't have to worry about the the why or the how that you bring up will be something we'll flesh out at future workshops perfect we have another comment from commissioner yes so we have to be careful when we talk about low income and a hack because they're two different um two different uh subjects the 55 plus community i gotta tell you that i live in district 3 which is the oldest section of the city of deltona if you want to look at it and i can tell you that during my campaign that was a complaint of my residents that when they want to downsize they don't want to leave deltona but they have to because we have nothing in deltona where 55 and over uh can move into so where do they go at the end of saxon boulevard into the very um the very yeah those uh houses at the end of saxon boulevard 1792 those are 55 and over so we don't have to dedicate a huge section of deltona but something that um you know maybe um to uh one or two apartment story buildings to give these people um a choice to stay within a community that they're comfortable with that they probably even grew up in and just downsize but stay in the same neighborhood like you said i have a problem like they know the people that live nearby they can go to so i'm pro 55 and plus community i think that if you don't mind the back and forth on that i think that um there's the way to address that right because i don't want to i don't want residents to feel like if they have if they have if they need to downsize they have to leave right now they do yeah and and but i think the way that we can address that is by addressing the mix of our developments and we don't it doesn't have to be a 55 and up community to be a one bedroom one bath dwelling right it can be a two bedroom one bath or one bedroom two bath however it is it can be a smaller dwelling for them to move into that would be more attractive to the older generation that is in is mixed in with the two and three bedroom uh dwellings um so so it's not segregated it's together i think that mix needs to happen at a local development level rather than the city level so that's what they don't want they they want to live in an area where there's quiet um i mean i don't know if you've ever been to a 55 and over community i know that when the first apartments south saxon boulevard open um they gave a tour to the previous chamber here in the city of deltona the first chamber ever put together here and i can tell you that's one of the things people were looking for they didn't want any right they feel like quiet you know they they have a place where they can hang out among themselves and stuff so that's the only reason why i'm bringing it up because doing my campaigns this was brought up a lot i i the cul-de-sac that my wife and i live in we've got um one neighbor that is probably in his 50s families kids moved out kids lived down the street his father lives next to him in his 90s a family that are in their their late 20s early 30s with a young child a three-year-old and then another neighbor that's in his 90s and then another young family and then we have a young family across the street and then we have a middle-aged family next to them and having that mix in 10 houses is that's my vision for the city right is to have to have everybody living together essentially i don't want so so this is a great conversation and um just so you understand so that that a lot of that discussion is in the provide housing for all life stages and um so what we're going to be doing when we get into the comprehensive plan is we're going to have a workshop focused on a cluster of the elements um and you're going to see that in just a second how we're going to cluster like elements together so we can really get into the weeds on this what i what i want to make sure that we are talking about here is that we we have the right strategies we're going in the right direction how in those details do you have 55 older communities do you how do you integrate them all of those kind of questions those are the ones that we're gonna if we can hold those for when we're doing the workshop on the housing and housing and future land use is together so we're going to have a workshop specifically on that topic okay so and is there any other things that you want us to think about on this one or can we move to you're talking about the design standards we're going to make sure that the city as a whole because i know we brought that up and even residents brought it up at multiple workshops we're going to have one common theme it's not going to be miami vice in one entrance and like an earthy tone in a different entrance and then there's who knows what on the different one it's all going to be bring this up so those those definitely are items that we will talk about when we do our workshop on housing and um housing and development didn't didn't we are we currently doing a zoning in progress on architectural designs yes we are and uh what was presented was like three and we're going to share the um zoning in progress with um yes i thought the the examples that were provided in zoning in progress were phenomenal so great anything that you want anything else no go anything that you wanted to for us to go on about redevelopment outside of the items that we have identified which is incentivizing and fill establishing higher density but but not you know under higher density but as jason is going to talk about in a second at at a deltona scale um back one real quick so the foster community spaces the parks and recreation standards is that um is the goal of that or is that written so that we are looking to develop and adopt a standard like a park standard okay perfect yes and again the will the parks and recreation and natural resources um will have a workshop uh i think infrastructure i think all of those kind of public services are in the same workshop so again here we are with redevelopment economic development um permanent uh incentivizing providing alternatives for for transportation um expanding our public resources infrastructures to make sure that redevelopment can happen in the right places okay mixable walkable mixed use um this includes again urban design and form recognizing that walkable mixed use is a different type of form than a traditional suburban area um extending our walk and bikeway system identifying alternative parking strategies um because you do need people to park but you're if it's a walkable mixed use area you may not need the same level of parking as you do in a suburban strip law that blows or something understanding step ted and that means that community by design it's the idea that eyes on eyes on the street are your best uh tool for providing safety lighting things like that um and then design standards as long as our as long as the policy doesn't specifically call out step ted i think the concept that's up ted is great i don't think that our policy should specifically call out that okay okay yeah and one of the other things i just want to mention here is you know a lot of times we get in kind of a rut and i want you to strategically start thinking of transportation options as you know trails or recreation well they're also transportation um and and infrastructure for transportation is also recreation and sometimes because of the way they're maintained or pots of money to pay for them i think communities get bogged down into those silos and i'm really encouraging communities to not think that way and to think it's a joint network that we have to that we all want to use and that also deals with the location of it okay so next one um and then as we get into our strong local economy we are going to have an economic development element um so you know how do we leverage redevelopment for business growth how do we identify and better serve underutilized areas and read again going back to redevelopment one of the things you're going to see is that these ideas there isn't they they cross issues and we did that on purpose because no one issue sits in a silo like like jason said transport trails is not a transportation issue or a parks issue it is both and they both connect then to housing and land use so these things are all interconnected so is there anything that you feel like that we've missed or needs to be accentuated on local economy i think this is right on okay next again multimodal we've already talked a little bit about this but this one just to really insight puts it home and and calls it out on its own um that economic development is about multimodal that future land use categories are about multimodal that design standards are about multimodal and of course transportation alternatives that all of these things are interconnected and as we're looking through each of these components we'll be addressing and how determined to improve our connection that isn't necessarily a vehicle or at least a sole vehicle at some point i would like to also look into identifying specific areas of the community that would would be conducive to uh like golf cart communities i've heard that from quite a few residents that makes sense i'm curious about the rail corridors the last one yes is that specifically speaking to the rail trail that we have or is that okay thank you yeah that was that that was something that many of the community members said is that is is an asset that hasn't yet completely been embraced by the community how can it better be used to drive economic development you know on a similar note with the rail debarry has a sunrail station also so i think that that should be a component of our connectivity is having connection with with through debarry to sunrail yeah but connecting that throughout the rest of the city yes agreed okay next anything that you feel on natural assets that we might have missed or you feel like that we're right do you feel like we're right right there we're i recognize that one of the things i'm going to point out is that storm water becomes an environmental issue and those can be an asset for you yes i think one of the things we've talked about i don't know if it fits in this specifically was when it comes to whatever is available for development if somebody owns 10 acres and they want to develop that we need to make sure that in our codes it's buildable acres versus because let's say have six acres of wetlands what's happening a lot of the developers are counting those as part of how many they can put per how many units per acre development right it should it should be redone so we can call them develop net buildable yes net buildable acres okay yeah i think that'll protect the wetlands that would help with a lot of the flooding situation at the end of the day the wetlands are what protects us from really yes but i think further going farther than that it's your decisions of local jurisdiction whether you're going to just go with what the state requirements are and standards are or are you going to have a higher standard as an example um there's a lot of communities that we work in that have a higher standard doesn't matter what the wetland is you can't touch it can't impact it other places say well the state lets you impact them so we'll let you impact them and i think that's the question here especially with this everybody says we're pro-environmental but then when you start putting those policies that restrict development or limit it in certain ways then all of a sudden the questions start coming up well maybe we really don't want to do that so that's the challenging question for you all is are we in the right place because this is more of a restrictive preserve and protect direction obviously the nuances of the language will be it will figure that out but what we heard was protect and preserve correct and so we just wanted to make sure that that's you know and if it's a higher standard it becomes a higher standard and that's what you're going to implement and that might be something as we get into the mixed use codes that we identify um jason and i were meeting earlier while you guys were doing other stuff and we were talking about kind of where could those other mixed use nodes be and and a lot of the questions do come up with your environmental so i think there's going to be a balancing discussion that will happen when we get into that more detailed one of the things that i'd like to see um on the the last bullet the incentivized renewable energy systems i would actually counter to that i would like to see a prohibition on the use of solar farms as a primary land use um i think solar is absolutely something that uh looks atrocious when it's on the ground and it doesn't need to be on the ground it's a it's the perfect thing to put on top of a parking lot on top of a building on top of a school floating nope yeah there's there's a lot of there's a lot of new the new thing is to put solar on top of lakes i think that we can capitalize on on lakes some in a different way but that's a good point and but there are lots of like you said there are lots of creative ways you can use i mean solar is one of the the things i think um a lot of parking lots are going to in florida which is awesome because it provides shade for your car and electricity above i mean yep so those kind of ideas are something that definitely worth looking at as long as we're not taking up ground space that could be better used used as literally anything else um for solar then i'm good with it but yeah when you put when you put solar on the ground then all you do is you're literally killing the life underneath the solar it turns into a dirt farm so and it kills the environment too you driving to tell us you'll see the fields of fpls all the time look i when when i was on vacation in germany they have huge solar farms for a country we were there for 10 days and saw the sun for a total of about 10 minutes and they have massive solar farms and literally underneath them is nothing but like dirt and rocks yeah i don't want our city to turn into that all right and then the final one is the infrastructure systems recognizing that none of the above can happen unless we have a really strong robust infrastructure and again we're not just talking about typical we're not talking just water potable water sewer we're talking about schools we're talking about parks we're talking about all of those public services um that we're talking about roads we're talking about anything that is infrastructure anything that provides the resources that our community needs to thrive you know that i understand you've got multiple basin studies for stormwater and things that's where you can require those things to occur make sure that you're doing those on a regular basis now in the future that you're providing those studies and using that data as information to to guide your development but that has to be policy in the plan how do you push that on a school though because schools are exempt from state from the same standards that everybody else is so i used because we have an issue right now with the school and the way they have great engineers they don't get anybody from anywhere but even the way their retention pile was built it was not done in a very correct way so i i happen to know a little bit about school planning um i think most of you know that i spent almost a decade as a director of planning for two different school districts in florida and there are ways that you can develop cooperative relationships and i'm happy to work with you on that i can't direct staff but yeah so so we there are there are ways we i do i i understand what you're saying because i used to play both sides of the table but um being the planner you know we i there are ways okay so so i'm going to come back to this now and say i think i've heard you that these guiding principles are the ones that we should move forward with move forward good everybody else yes yes so so so the the final thing i want to say before we get in before i turn the mic back over to jason um as you can see we're kind of collaborating but you should know by now that that's how we we roll um we are now we have now completed our vision plan so give yourselves a round of applause because you have completed the first phase congratulations and now we go into the hard part the the visioning is the easy part right it's the fun part it's it's thinking about what we want to be in the future now that comes the hard part of how do we do this um and there are three to four major things that we're going to be looking at your comprehensive plan your land development code your economic development plan and then your behind the scenes is your capital improvement plan and how you're going to pay for it and because a policy or a standard isn't really only as good as somebody's willing to put budget to it right so um so jason is going to talk about that first leg which is the comprehensive plan which is the next component of what we're going to be working towards um because the conference policies then will lead us to how we're going to update your standards will better help us understand the economic development and the capital improvement yeah so just as a reminder that we are currently working on your comprehensive plan we've collected data analysis during your vision process we've collected additional stuff that's required by state law uh preparing maps doing all that stuff and starting to draft kind of framework that's why with your conversation today about multiple things obviously have a huge impact on that um so right now i think we're playing through the end of the year um as far as the comprehensive plan one of the challenges obviously in a community like this that's a platted community uh and we've dealt with and worked in many of them uh is finding redevelopment's a big deal redevelopment becomes a very big deal for you so that's why we want to highlight a lot of that in those guiding principles or you did i should say um and then you'll see what that means but just as a reminder that you know florida's filled with these types of communities and there's a lot of success stories out there uh that that they're doing good things right now and i think taking those best management practices learning from those lessons what worked and hasn't worked and implementing in your community to right size it for you is a really important task to undertake so um we were talking earlier with some staff and other folks about the history of platted lots in florida and there's a couple books out there that are great stories about about communities um and so i would suggest look those up if you can but you know these communities weren't platted to be communities they were platted to be a subdivision to be residential development to be really a land sale and sell lots and then do whatever you want with them that's why a lot of whether infrastructure has failed or what have you so you're you're you're moving along and it's an uphill battle but i think you guys have done a great job and so this next step of the comprehensive plan for your 2050 will really set in motion the rest of filling in those things that you were left without from the beginning from when this place originally was created yeah so i call that the original sin because this is this is the original sin of of these platted lots communities and the state didn't help us in the 80s when they said the original sin is forever um but the good news on these is there are alternatives and there are good ways to deal with them and we are working with your staff to help you understand how we've done that jason and i have made a career out of working with these kind of communities i don't know if we're either smart or sick but um but uh you know we've we've worked in in these communities all across florida and there are lots of ways to address them but understand that a lot of the things that we heard from the community about what their concerns are about what their vision for it is all stem from these your original sin that your community was never built to be a community it was built to be a land sale of quarter acre half acre lots they didn't think about roads they didn't think about schools they didn't think about public water infrastructure they didn't think about parks all they thought about was and literally i i worked for a commissioner in lee county we told would tell this story that he was one of them um commissioner mann rest his soul he would he was one of the people who was put in a helicopter brought into the middle of a field and said this is your piece of land and ten dollars down ten dollars a month that was his piece of florida paradise and his first family home so you know this is this is something that we can work with you on but understanding the challenges that that it creates is um is sort of helping us is going to be critical to helping us develop a different future is the misspelling of the tone on the top part of the program yes yes well yeah that's the fix for 2050 yes okay wait so if we change it to deltona lakes then the whole doesn't apply right did the other six deltona corporation properties have the same issue that deltona has yes and they've all because i mean i've been to marco island i've been for work since i've known you to citrus springs and marion oaks and i went in there and i started seeing elcom and deltona and all these i said wait a second what is it and i realized oh it's it's the same but it's nowhere near built out is here yeah so you don't experience i mean you could drive these streets and it's like pine trees yes you know what i mean so it's like what this i guess used to be however long ago it was the weirdest thing and i was going to meet a i was going to tour a library to possibly do a community meeting for a turnpike project and i thought this is like just going back in time yeah yeah it was it was wild so yeah that would be the only good that's a really good point the only difference i think for from deltona to other communities is that you are mostly built out and so but they are in the same space that i when i used to work for lehigh acres and um i worked for lee county which lehigh is part and i'm part of county county and i used to always start my workshop by saying close your eyes and pretend everything around you is not vacant pretty land because it's built and it might as well be built because according to the 85 legislature that has a right to be built as a house so you know saying oh we're developer or whatever it's like well talk to the legislature from you know decades ago because that's what's going to happen and some of the differences i think are inherent in being a city and incorporated versus being not in ryle port charlotte to the charlotte county has 220 000 platted lots most of you know over half i believe at one point were still unbuilt on uh streets that they used to call them the streets that they didn't have to mow because they were so thin and so poorly built the grass was growing up in them um so i'll hdb i'll pass on a book that that i'm very happy that i love and it has all these stories about all these platted lots about all these guys that came through development and they weren't all bad they were all trying to do development they got a little crazy towards the end some of them but it's it's really crazy stories of uh people from out of this country training in the forests of the subdivisions that weren't built in and some some really interesting things but your uniqueness is i think that being a city and having you know a sense of place a little bit at least and being built out it just brings another challenge um so and and that'll get into our urban design you know this doesn't surprise you 49 of your of your community is single family and then when you add in the 0.6 that's multifamily you're at over 50 of your community is well in your in your land use in general if you guys look at your future land use map and your zoning map i mean it's it's mostly single family residential it's it's you know that's the issue because it's platted single family lots essentially what they're being wrote i won't go through all this we'll just touch on some of this you do have a 78 percent owner occupied uh some of these numbers change depending on the gis analyst that does some of this um but about 22 rental units it appears um like i said 95 is single family units um just your network uh which is not a lot right there you have some major corridors uh they're very busy lots of traffic uh we heard last time we were here very unsafe some of them with crossings uh and so it's a challenge trying to and with the environmental the environmental assets you have and the platted network that isn't really grid but it's very platted and dead end because of the way that it's broken up it becomes a challenge to connect those uh so those are some of the things that we're going to try to help help you steer steer you with um you know so here's a big 75 percent commute outside your city all right and that number fluctuates over the years uh 88 commute to work uh there's got to be some other alternatives to be able to do that 98 of those commute by car right that's that's a lot curiosity the other two percent what is it of the car via car um so walk walk walk and bike or and transit i was gonna say we don't have a lot of transit so it really had to be bike or walk yeah yeah and that that number you know plus or minus two percent error maybe it's a hundred percent sometimes so yeah helicopters oh and you know what else is in there is telecommuting uh yes yes good we think you have a bit of telecommuting yeah you have about 11 of your community is telecommuting yeah it appears to be that the facebook posts all the dang time about somebody looking for a work from home job yeah that increase probably after covid right oh yeah probably 10 posts a day yeah you have a very 11 is pretty high yeah so grid network is the most efficient transportation system there's a there's a semi-grid here right there's a semi-grid here except you have all these things in the middle of it breaking it up so um and i don't know if you've heard the term griddle uh which is really one way in one way out but maybe inside it looks like a grid that's not really a grid uh so connecting these these components and making sure that you have alternative transportation all has to work together uh but again the challenge is you got some great environmental assets that break that up uh just some your flood zone to get a picture on that obviously a lot of that you got some a uh a zones a lot of access has been filled and built up but we want to try to protect those uh flood zones um obviously they're natural for areas for recharge and such 20 about 26 projected i forgot the source on that but within 30 years insurance that's insurance data that there's a 26 likelihood 26 percent will flood within 30 years um and obviously you can see the changes in the recent flooding uh that's quite substantial increases 10 inches 11 to 15 15 19 it's just gonna keeps going up uh some of your parks i think obviously and that's part of the conversation we had earlier with the guiding principles yes uh there's communities have to decide what types of parks they want to have right and a lot of counties over the last decade have gotten away from pocket parks and neighborhood parks because of maintenance and operations and trying to maintain them they've gone to bigger activity uh regional regional park systems cities have a different choice with the pocket parks neighborhood parks type thing um the kind of the ship has sailed as far as if a new subdivision comes in a lot of times they require them to have pocket parks internal and they have to maintain them you kind of have to think of how do you go about doing that is there ways to acquire lots to serve a neighborhood are there ways to you don't have a lot of land for new development we do still have a lot of undeveloped infill lots that are spread out around our community i would really like to see us put an emphasis on trying to acquire those a lot of non-conforming lots that are spread throughout the city and i think that would yeah for pocket parks so that's that's the implementation is we want to have more park activity areas the policy becomes we're going to look at acquiring x number of acres per year or over a 10 year period or what have it and they're going to be of this size and and i'd really like to see you guys move into a more um other than just acreage calculation we want to calculate a lot of communities you right now have a level of service based on acreage and i talked about this in one of the workshops that doesn't you know having 10 acres or 20 acres of park that there's nothing in it it doesn't help anybody doesn't help anybody so this might be a legal question but um is there a way to require new i think it should be the way that i'm thinking about it is not based off of a community development but when a housing permit is made as part of maybe an impact fee a dedicated amount gets set aside for the purchase of land to add pocket parks is there yeah i mean that's you can you can so um vice mayor when the city adopts its impact fees uh and you know through the through the new process you can certainly require that a percentage go to a a land trust fund yes um in order to sequester a certain percentage of the revenue um for that particular purpose generally uh jurisdictions like to provide some flexibility by including that as one of the the goals the purposes of the fee but not necessarily sequestering it um you know for the event that in lieu of acquiring land you want to use those funds for uh you know a different type of parks and recreation investment i think i i would like to look into doing it very specifically for acquiring land that is this map is a perfect it shows it explains it so clearly that we lack pocket parks we lack those pieces of land throughout the city so if it needs to be dedicated for that specific purpose so that when the opportunity does come up to buy a parcel you know in an existing neighborhood we have funding available just for that absolutely and obviously take that decision away from make that decision easy for future commissions to make and that's great feedback because again it ties to the policies ties to the comprehensive plan what is the direction you're giving yourselves essentially uh to how to do that and while we identify vacant lots through our normal mapping process then you can got you can get into the spatial analysis your parks and rec master plan can identify those things when they get updated and go from there so that you're you're geographically kind of making it equal across the across the board it is a challenge of built-out community though especially with impact fees remember impact fees is is it's not a tax it's not a you can't charge people that exist here it's got to be the proportionate share of the thing that's needed to people that are developing it's got to be new development i understand caused right or anyway so the uh green areas is where we currently have parks the green are your current park lands your the the uh attached areas anything that you have is conservation right so where the green is where we have currently parks yes so you currently in your comprehensive plan have an adopted have adopted level of service that is being met by through your school system you have an interlocal apparently that from years and years ago to utilize their playgrounds and equipment and in facilities and you're a large majority of your parks and rec level of service is being met through that not on your own with your own lands and facilities those that can be done that's fine so the green area could be that's exactly my point that i was about to make i'm sorry i was talking they're fenced in thank you so the green areas is um it doesn't specifically mean one area it's it could be like a whole district i have four parks in my district so i'm trying to figure out where they are and give you a more close-up map this is this is not meant to identify a park okay that's what was my question was about because i was just there this morning that there's a series of parks down on the waterfront it's not a park there's multiple parks there and that whole area is compassed by the green so we can get with you and and all right because i was trying to figure out if that one if one green spot meant multiple parts in that one it could be because this is not parcel based okay it's a it's an existing landing space if we turn down the parcel area it may be five or six different parcels and such that but but the bigger point being the school's relationship but it doesn't have to be because in district one there are two parks there are two highlighted areas that correspond to the only two parks in district one it could it could be one it could be multiple just depends on how much land is there and in terms of the school so you mentioned that schools are are fenced in um i i've written a few interlocals on school facility on joint use school use facilities because of marjory stoneman douglas schools have to have facilities that are secure but through interlocals school districts create resources that make their system their services and their parks or their their playgrounds and their fields available to the residents when they aren't in use for students but they have to they have to uh the state statutes make it so that schools have to be secured that way can somebody follow up with the school district to see if that interlocal is actually being honored because i know i live near spirit and they don't open that up on the weekends so i can and it may not be open so again and yes one of the things one of the elements that we do a revaluation of when your conference plan is your interlocals so we will collect all the interlocals that you have for anything and we evaluate how the we evaluate through the conference plan the use of that tool and make recommendations for updates of it um so we certainly can do that and will do that that's part of the conference plan process um so and i don't know what volusia county's uh current interlocal system is and how it's used and whether it's a carte blanche thing the way i believe it's used is that it's a on a on a reservation based system so you would you have you could use it but you have to reserve that space and then it becomes available for the user and i believe that it's also because of liability insurance yeah there's there you have liability you have margie stoneman double so and different district and and it could be i know for the two districts i've worked at it wasn't a one size fits all it depended on the specific school if it was something you know if it was a tennis court that could be open all the time we made it that way if it was more of a field space we did it by a reservation based system so it could i don't know specifically volusia but i believe they are based on a reservation system just on some quick research i did online for them is is there a way to pull that out of our comp plan calculation yeah yeah you can you mean how much it is no so that it doesn't mean park yeah so that it doesn't include the parks i think that that's entirely up to your yes i think that when we make that calculation that it needs to include facilities that are open to residents that the city has control over uh not not schools quite right and at the same time we would encourage you to look at adopting a level of service that isn't just acreage right so um the last i've read a couple of parks and rec master plans and and part of it went to kind of a point system so you start yeah awarding points on and as an example if you have a field a baseball field football field whatever with no lights well you've increased capacity if you put lights up and you've increased more kids and more people that can use it so they go to they went to a point system to better evaluate the use of that space but it also allows you an opportunity to say well do we have enough tennis course because maybe the schools are providing all those that are open to the public so we don't need to build more tennis courts we need to build more of a b and c whatever it is it's a real it gets you into a much better feel for what your community needs i think it's a great recommendation and then and then part of the assessment will be like so the city has this much and they're in these resources the county has this much and they're in the resources the schools have this much and they're in these resources and then you can evaluate by faith like jason said based on a use by use need which ones you want to increase or decrease or which ones you want to include schools school lands or county lands and which ones don't you where did you get the information for the locations of the parks hopefully accurate gis maps i have not ground truth each of those i guess i'll tell you that i think a lot of this data comes from you appear to be missing one in my district montecito park okay we will check some of the data comes from staff some of it comes from just other sources and it's kind of mixed together so we'll double check that huh it's not there and again just you know deltona today i know i don't i don't hesitate to bring it up but annexation has been a conversation part where do you want to go when do you want to go obviously you're kind of constrained there's there's a limit you can go that you can go in all four directions um so but that's part of the comprehensive plan i don't i don't mean that in a way of we're going to identify parcels necessarily you can do it in a map you can do it as a general area a lot of communities have started doing that cities have started doing that with a future annexation map and identifying what land uses they think they want in those areas as a means to make that future process easier when somebody comes in you've already kind of discussed what we think is it going to be mixed use in general is it going to be residential those types of things unless we get through this and you guys end up knowing exactly which parcels you want it always helps to have that future identification more more circles in areas rather than individual parcels yes that's obviously you have a jpi already and all that so this is up until today which i think some of the conversation with the next topic plays a role in this but this is basically the calendar schedule that we were looking at we've looked at trying to do it shorter um and honestly this schedule puts a lot on you and your staff to for us to get things done and that's because there's a lot of meetings to prepare uh it's assuming some joint meetings and some other components between you and your planning commission and some other things that we keep in a schedule and roll these through it's entirely up to you as we go through this obviously uh to hey you know we realize these are some topics we need to flush out let's take a step back but we want to be incur we want to you know keep ourselves feet to the fire too to be able to finish for you as fast as possible we'll push you a little bit and if you guys need to push back that's fine that's fine um but yeah so this is what kathy mentioned earlier that they come in groups generally and we can change this depending on you and your staff's opinion uh you know future land use conservation parks and recreation you got housing transportation economic uh development and education um and then uh infrastructure uh property rights and cie components uh ic e means intergovernmental coordination uh those are kind of the cluster general cluster that we use in communities is how we present them together because they're related so um and future land use usually comes first with that grouping of housing and such because that's what everybody wants to talk about that's how you set a map essentially um but if you have any questions or things you think should be advanced or switch um we're open to that topic now we and we may want to come back to this because the next discussion may change put a pin in that if you will uh because that timeline may change depending on you started this conversation about mixed use in downtown or urban centers or whatever you want to call it uh point of order mayor it's already three o'clock we still have a lot of items to go under c can i suggest that we focus on finishing c i think that'll probably take the next hour and a half maybe two hours and then schedule another workshop to continue on the rest of the items i i would not have an issue with it we just need consensus can i give some context this is just food for thought for you guys as you think oh no we're talking about yeah outside of you and so this isn't much longer for us it's just a few minutes just to help you make your decision it's food for thought no no no i know but he's saying can we finish all of c and then do another workshop for all the items of deity so commissioner santiago are you okay oh yes yes commissioner howington you okay are you okay commissioner it depends on what saturday you pick yes and can i just make a comment too i have an engagement out of town i'll have to leave soonish for so if you see me get up that's what i'm doing thanks okay yes so well we're not we're going to do this really quick because there was already a very robust discussion earlier we just want to share kind of we understand that there's a challenge at deltona we understand that there's a challenge um what we're i'm gonna i'm gonna because i understand time is of an essence i'm going to cut to the to the final before what we would like to recommend to you is that the discussion about where you put your mixed use centers and your downtown be brought into the comprehensive plan because everything we do in the comprehensive plan is going to be directed from that this discussion so the schedule that we just showed you which we would start immediately we're going to recommend that that be altered slightly so that we can bring in a component to have a visioning discussion and master planning discussion about your mixed use centers and what does that mean because then that can help us guide it help us develop your policies it'll help us develop your goals it'll help us develop those things to implement it because when we looked like i said jason and i've done some homework looking at your previous planning efforts when we look at what your previous planning efforts was is that that you had great ideas but they didn't get implemented so if we bring this discussion into the comprehensive plan as a forerunner to the comprehensive plan then we know that the next step is the comprehensive plan is your goals objectives and policies then we know your next standard the next thing is your standards we know that that ties into your capital improvement element and your economic development strategies so if we were to bring this component in then we can make sure that everything else flows correctly i support that plan yes yes i think that would be a great idea and so if that is where you are we can either have this discussion which is pretty much what you guys talked about this morning or for brevity of time if we understand that we will work with staff to revise our contract and devise the schedule and we will schedule a workshop a kickoff workshop specifically for the comprehensive plan including the discussion about your mixed use centers specifically with residents correct with resident with with you and residents we'll probably do a kickoff with you and then we'll also do a kickoff with residents probably on the same day because this needs and this is just my opinion i want to say but this needs to be yes a combined effort so it's all of ours so we don't see vision 2050 ending vision 2050 the first like i said the first phase is done but vision 2050 is still going on this then the rest of this is still part of vision 2050 so didn't during that vision 2050 did we not already get resident input on i mean that's where we got the that's that's where the outcome of multiple centers yes came from so didn't i think this is to be more specific if i'm not mistaken is that correct yeah so let's go a couple slides some of us would not like to see higher density right right some of us would not like to see more than four stories you know i think that's the more specifics right and i think we're kind of this this downtown idea too big of a discussion prohibits progress being made and as an elected representative i there's already that flow of communication so i want to make sure that we can be productive in our conversations and not just have extra meetings just have extra meetings and we think the master planning of those are more design related um rather than policy related and the mayor is absolutely accurate right so to that point obviously you have a you have a unique opportunity that's we've all said is somewhat unusual to these types of planning communities throughout florida in that you have i guess conversation of a road extension you have about 261 acres give or take that are vacant sitting in the middle of an activity center already designated um you just don't quite have the design and and requirements i guess i'll call them to foster what would be considered a downtown right you can have your regular parcel by parcel development suburban style type development or you can make a choice to say let's create this kind of downtown i would offer that that's different than your other multiple activity centers that are more neighborhood based because they're going to be going into and adjacent to those neighborhoods you have an opportunity here to really what you already did earlier today to evaluate this so as kind of as i said this has to be worked into your comp plan because whatever scale and size you go with this you want a similar um you want an offset so this is just introducing to you what what is an activity center like this what is a downtown really uh what does it create um downtowns have to have an energy they have to have a feel to them they're an opportunity for you to create a sense of place a real identity of who you are as a city it's not just a street that i have a bunch of commercial on it's a real sense of place um transect uh planning is based on a little bit of that transition from uh if you look up transect planning there's a t1 through a t6 type of thing and you're around a t3 from your suburban residential development which is a transition into what we call t4 and t5 and those numbers are really about intensification but then transitioning back out into the existing neighborhood and this location is surrounded by that what i would call t3 and it really plays well i'm sorry there's a slide right there about what that looks like so on the top you have kind of the the elevation of what some structures and examples and then below that you have a overhead kind of plan view of those so you're really at a t3 throughout your community suburban as you know and all that um one idea and concept is to look at planning these through the kind of the t4 and the t5 but that master plan can really call that out where are buildings how are they oriented uh is parking in the rear are you going to have mixed parking for a mixture of uses are you going to have um residential on top and commercial at the bottom are you going to incentivize that are you not are you going to give density intensity for certain styles is the architecture going to be similar all those types of things would come out and flush out of the master plan type style of review um and here's just again we're just throwing out concept and ideas of how that would work in general if you went down that route you have your 260 acres uh you have a portion of that would be more intense that's in the core uh then you would have obviously the street off of not not rhode island but the street in the middle there would really be the main street of that core and then you have uh lesser intense around that and what's not on here is then what goes into your normal t3 we call it but typical areas like that are you know your t4 is about two to three stories um it has a much higher fir and pervious area component to it but it's really getting into more multimodal type development t5 is the same maybe you get to three to five those are all the things that you want to talk about what is appropriate that's that's a different level than would be in your neighborhood at those activity centers or the major intersections that we talk about maybe that's a t2 to three maybe that's a one to two those are the types of things that we can finish talking about commissioner howington has a question um can you back up a few slides to why this location works i'm sorry right here okay understand where did we just put the overlay is it just the green and yellow section is it the entire map that we're seeing on the screen what did we vote on this morning the activity center overlay this morning was the entire activity center so all the way from the top all the way down to the bottom correct yes so how does that play with the fact that we had an overlay in place previously because we've talked about entitlements this morning we talked about entitlements and how that impacts so we had people who had entitlements when they purchased land then we put an overlay on it that overlay outlined future uses and then now we've just added a second overlay so how did that how does that all play together how how do they know what entitlements they have coming to them based on the land that they've held so commissioner howington the action this morning was to declare a zoning in progress regarding the existing activity center overlay not to talk about adding an additional overlay um so the study is going to be on the existing activity center overlay and how regulations can be changed in order to foster the mixed use walkable community that um we're having the discussion on now okay so the oh the existing overlay is the one that would still be in in use we just put the zoning in progress in place see this is where i said i didn't understand what was happening which explains my no vote i'm never going to vote yes for something i don't understand so getting this today i literally got information while we were voting which makes me very uncomfortable with what we did this morning because up until just now i wasn't even sure what we exactly voted on so i'm just stating that um so so commissioner this was not part of the overlay this was part of the um workshop discussion but this this actually gave me outlines then the information that would have been helpful prior to that vote and we just picked this red outline is just an area that was is vacant and in the middle of everything so that's why we picked that ultimately thank you it's a great question it's a great question and just understand that you know the details of the we're we're showing you a one idea but this is where that's why we've asked for to bring this discussion into the comp plan so we can really flush out and make sure that you do understand so that you can vote yes every time because you have a thorough understanding of what's being happening yeah we just want to introduce the transect planning component of it so that you understand scale matters orientation matters what our codes what the what the building looks like can matter those are all things that can go into developing a a requirements for your a downtown if that's what you want to do thank you mayor um uh i actually the commissioner hankton agree with some of her points and um uh the reason why i voted yes was because i was wanted to have the conversation now we're having a conversation um when i look at some of these renderings and i i had to pull up here so i could remember what it was called i used to live near a place um in fernandina beach called amelia park and do you know it okay which i think works there because a lot of that is single family residential within the the residential component of it and uh obviously nassau county and city fernandina beach have a tax base that's oceanfront um and it has a lot of commercial um at this point so they have they don't have the challenges we have with with having so much single family residential that has safer homes and homes exemption so um while i do like i like amelia park on on paper for for the context it's in um i i do have concerns with that much single family housing if if that's what's intended though this morning during our actual business meeting we discussed colonial town center a few others i think we're more oriented to what i think we might need with all the other factors we have that have worked against us for for 30 years so that's just my comment but that's immediately what i saw is i thought amelia i was wondering what is it called and i knew it was amelia park um and i watched that go from that was very much expanding when i when i lived in that area um and they added on some commercial um near the entrance of it and then they added on like the um it said there was originally just sort of the row houses which were which were still um uh homesteaded homesteadable properties and then they added on like the actual detached um structures later in some other phases so um that's just my comment on that i i just want to make sure that we are for our purposes or what i would like is it just to make sure it is more commercially oriented yeah oh absolutely and all of those kind of questions we're gonna deal with when we get into the real details i don't want to i don't want to get this too far in the week because i know you all yeah yeah i'm sorry so i'm getting this and this is scale is really what we're talking about 260 acres if you look at studies of cities all around typically about three percent is a downtown central business district your your city is a little bit bigger on your on a per capita population perspective so i wouldn't use that three percent this gets pretty close to what would be in there so that was just the purpose of scale and those blocks that you see those are actually blocks out lots those that's an existing plat that's under that land those uh those blocks are about what we'll call the manhattan size block so urban planning in the 20s 30s and 40s was actually pretty good at laying out cities uh we just kind of got away from that in the 50s and beyond so uh that's just a scale for like 270 by 700 foot blocks if i can just add and i still have commissioner howington and commissioner lully on the board um i mean and i'm again i'm speaking for myself i'm envisioning more like a city place type of ordeal but there's a lot of commercial uh on the bottom restaurants shops um on one side i know that there is some some housing which obviously are exempt from being homesteaded uh but on the other side you have the movie theater you have an actual theater you know that's more of i think what we are all envisioning there's a lot of green space within that downtown if nobody's looked at it there it's there's areas for for people to go and enjoy concerts and stuff of that nature so and it's very walkable and actually maybe a part or two away than they have their other downtown which is clematis makes no sense to me but it works for them you know so thank you and the the overarching point here is that these items up here on the screen is just what these are things that you need to incorporate if you're going to have a downtown it can't just be like i said a strip on a street it's got to be you know you have to share it through some concept shared uh streets enhanced public spaces that you just mentioned there uh diversity in housing it's usually mixed mixture and vertical alto family friendly compact and um and it's got a plan for that transition to what you already have which is lots of single family around it so common between all these six things they all tie back to your guiding principles so you guys have put the foundation in place to make this happen can we re-reference it as a town center instead of a downtown sure is that would the commission be okay with that because i think i've heard a lot of conversations from people that that say that we don't have room for a downtown but then when you explain it as a town center and you explain what the discussions that we've all been having are like oh yeah we want that that's exactly what we want true i think the term town center resonates more with what we're trying to do versus what the traditional view of a downtown is i think that's a good reframing that's up to you guys the size of this ultimately is up to you of what you want to serve i mean we need to come back to that i just we shouldn't be afraid of calling it a downtown i mean if i ever it ends up being at the end i'd be okay with it i mean some people call it a main street others call it something else but at this point it's semantics i mean if you call it a town center you're going to have a problem if you try to put it out there by i-4 because if you want to start talking town center we're going to be putting it out there where julio boster park is i mean that's closest you're going to get to a town center so regardless of what you do we're going to have to revisit that that's true i think we should i think we should at least you know let's get the forum part first which is we always mess up in the implementation part because we get held up by stuff like this yes so let's start implementing and that comment was not to change anything that we're doing i think everything that we're doing is phenomenal i think it'd just be more clarifying to the residents as i have conversations with everybody the comments are we don't have space for downtown why do you why do you want to put high rises in but we don't right when you explain what we're talking about they're like oh we love that we need that and that's going to be communication yes you have you have acreage you have acreage for appropriately sized downtown central business district whatever you want to call it yeah whatever it looks like elevation wise it's up to you it's entirely up to you and remember this you know this may not be the only one we talk about right exactly we're trying to set up a framework for these to happen where they need to be right and all the other ones should be scaled appropriately to what's around them that's that's the main goal so uh that's really it i won't show you that one since you don't like that word but um that was the main point and then once we realize how much of a conversation you're having about this you know kathy's right it's it's it's a big topic um it's going to be a sensitive topic i think somewhere some terms obviously to landowners so we want it you know we think it's best incorporated into this if that's really what you want to do a lot of communities just put it in a plan say we're going to do it later and kick it down the road and i don't think that's where you're at you're you're at a we want to get you to implement that we've already done that yes that's all 1999 data analysis for your comp plan talks about this stuff and then the goals objectives and policies that were adopted are not implementing those things whether that was by choice or not i don't know but i'm excited we are very excited honestly as a group and as a team to be here with you and hear you guys give this feedback and this is you know you just adopted your vision and your guiding principles and this is the implementation of that vision and guiding principles you are going to be able to say that vision 2050 was an idea idea that sat on the shelf and 30 years later nobody knew what it was we're going to be able to say vision 2050 created a whole new history for deltona more importantly our residents would appreciate we use a consultant and actually follow through the whole way so because we're notorious for that we just we can simplify it to just that we follow through okay yeah we're we're just part of the team that we're we're just part of the team you have a great staff and we we like being we like working with them and they're part of our we're part of their team they're part of our team we're just one team working together not allowed to take any of them what was that you're not allowed to take it okay we won't take any of the team members all right so we're we're now doing the zoning overlay is that what we're doing next we're on the zoning overlay yes ma'am okay um so thank you guys by the way so we kind of discussed zoning overlay this morning um zoning overlays are just specific regulations or requirements to the existing regulations um this morning we proposed a couple overlays zones districts for the city um one was the reed ellis um and that's to protect the natural features like wetlands wildlife habitats and water bodies the second one was the collins road overlay to protect agricultural land and promote farming the fishhawk overlay um to protect agricultural land as well and then the activity center overlay um current regulations allow mix of uses but do not require mixed uses and so we're just looking for feedback if the commission wants that additional overlays or just stick with the ones we have at the moment i think the part of the discussion was that if i and he's walking away now conveniently of course um we were concerned if we can add additional overlays for example i believe district one did you say in your district somebody else from over there said something one and five one and five that's what i brought it up um and that was that was i guess the confusing part zach was if we don't subdivide them does that mean that now they can't use that same the six was it six characteristics six i think we can't do that or can we just make them let's say davidson has or the vice mayor has one section right can he make that subsection d of the uh not to steal commissioner lully's uh what does it make deltona wild or keep deltona wild i'm sorry um you know can they do additional subsections or is it just he'll have to figure out something else to make a different type of overlay so by creating the create deltona wild overlay as a general framework and then having sub areas uh we would be able to add additional sub areas in the future if that's the desire of the commission different districts yes it may also be the case that the goal of uh a sub area or the goal of an overlay in another area of the city is different than what is outlined keep deltona wild and in that case the commission would be able to create a different overlay right like you have the activity center overlay which has clearly very different goals from the the keep deltona wild overlay so you may come to um you know you may have a downtown mixed use overlay you you may have many other different types of overlays that can come to exist in the future can i ask you this other question now that i feel more comfortable asking this question for whatever reason um the the this is the only concern i have and it's not a concern against it it's just by subdividing them does that protect the city where it doesn't i guess if you don't subdivide them would that make it easier for those developers to kind of join forces against us i just want to make sure that it's not an argument against i i i i i guess that's what we're trying to all figure out was adding more to it and then are we going to make sure we're protected and adding more subsections to the overlay as long as the broad category of the overlay is is sound and has a rational relation to those sub areas the city is in a very defensible position the danger would be if the city had this overlay and you have the three we discussed earlier and you start to add a fourth a fifth a six that have different goals or are uh extremely different from what that that first set is where it really wouldn't just it just wouldn't make sense um you know from a from a drafting and from a regulatory standpoint but you'd still have the opportunity to use a different tool a different overlay if you have an area where you want to accomplish a different goal i think the goals in district one are are a little bit different than what the goals of district district six are i think there's some overlap of course um but i think that we could very easily come up with a different overlay uh concept um for district one and and possibly district five or a separate one for district five i don't think this is this handcuffs us any at all that's the only question i have maybe we can do like keep district one dry overlay and focus on conservation and water mitigation i'm not going to ask you what he's going to want all right does anybody else have any other questions about the overlays you're talking about the current ones right zach or jemma jemma looks like she wants to if you all have questions about overlays in general we're happy to answer um i mean certainly if you all want to provide direction regarding you know looking into overlays in additional areas or uh you know or additional analysis we can take that direction now um but other than that i mean this is your forum so we'll we'll take your direction so to answer your question current and in general yeah at your pleasure um i wish this is just a suggestion um there are seminal county has many also county it might be helpful um if maybe staff could pull some of those other zoning overlays from different central florida municipalities and maybe send them to the commission um to uh maybe generate more discussion and ideas for for what uh each commissioner might see as a need in their district i mean for example mine was um just the the amount of feedback that i got from my constituents um was was the inspiration behind um i'm asking for this um and certainly i i was familiar with working on projects in like the state road 46 scenic overlay in seminole county um oscilla county urban growth boundary which is kind of similar it's just everything south of its line um on the map is what oscilla county uh designated as like their rural area so there are other examples i think in central florida that might be helpful for the commission and i will say if you all have been to a place on vacation or on a conference and you like something you're like i wish we had x i wish we had this or something like this i think this would do well here please let us know because we can work with staff and we can pull the you know if they have an overlay or whatever whatever it is that made that happen um and try to bring it to you here i mean we obviously we have a ton of respect and admiration for your vision for the city and we appreciate that you know you are focused on good development so we want to give you all the tools that you need to encourage and support that so you just let us know what you're what you want to see and i i do that i don't say it to the commission because it's sunshine stuff but i'm sure many of you recollect you know i i was somewhere on a saturday recently and i sent pictures of the place where i got all my baked goods and what is it french baguette and paris baguette in winter park i'm like this would be great for our downtown area so um i i do do that as i travel around central florida i ask you a question i'll go to vice mayor harry because i see it on the board i know it's not an overlay situation right even though we just put an overlay over it why is d ranch not a conservation i i always thought that was a conservation right now and i know that i just found out it's not deeded that way but that i'm not we can't get back to it i'm not sure why it's why it's not conservation who owns that property conservation florida conservation florida why don't they just work on deeding it as a conservation we just saw the map and it's not deeded as a conservation because at any given point i believe they could sell that property and do it do use it for what it is originally zoned for i i mean if it would be okay with the commission i think a if that property is being seriously considered for conservation can we not reach out to them and find out how we can make it where it stays that way yeah maybe consensus for staff to reach out to a deer and find out if they be willing to put it in a conservation i mean how long is the overlay going to last 120 days 120 days yeah that's just the zoning in progress though right that's what i'm saying it's i think more effective way would make sure if because that area there i mean i was looking at it they would be the one they would have to be the ones willing to give up their entitlements future entitlements to that property they would have to willingly do that on their own we can't force them to do no of course not but i think it would be a good just to reach out i mean um and i what was i was going to say on that um oh i mean they're imminent and they're imminently opening the trails to the public for use that they've put in through and then with their recent grant they got the nature center would come as like a next phase but they're gonna i mean it's phenomenal yeah yeah i i i guess i don't i don't know what would happen if if it got used for something because they're gonna be putting trails in there but i agree 100 so can we not reach out yes i i'm big down absolutely now we we're no longer talking about it's it's already in conservation florida i mean you want to pull the pull the commission for consensus i mean i guess uh commissioner santiago yes commissioner hummington yes yes yes is this to reach out to them to see what because that that caught me by surprise that it wasn't deeded that way so protect it in the perpetuity okay um vice mayor area here on so i've got a couple i've got two two overlays or or if the overlays are the right mechanism i'd like to just work with um continue working with with legal and uh our planning staff to further discuss before i bring them up to the commission but i will bring those up to the commission here for the next meeting or so yeah me as well all right all right um if there's nothing else then we're going to go ahead and move to next to the jpa deltona slash volusia county the city of deltona and volusia county we have a jpost team local jpa it was executed by the city of deltona and volusia county on december 5th 2008 it's located in southwest volusia county along the state route 415 corridor between lemon bluff road and acorn lake road and includes 3 990 acres the jpa requires the local plan to be incorporated into volusia county's conference plan and the city of deltona's conference plan the purpose is to facilitate balanced approach development along the state route 415 while promoting urban opportunities there is a community workshop on the osteen local plan from 5 to 7 on wednesday april 9th at osteen elementary school so i was going to ask us to see if it would be okay to bring this up at another workshop because until we have that one with the county i believe this clerk already noticed sunshine noticed the meeting yeah i already responded okay so i want to make sure that um and the commissioners were invited um and the county council uh you know it's it's a joint effort we should probably listen to that first before we you know do anything else and then from there i don't know how difficult it would be to if we have a workshop on this to have it specifically with with the county i don't know if that's outside of it but i mean it's a joint venture we should be able to if it's okay with the rest of the when was the last time the county and city have gotten together so it's going to be in a couple i'm i mean a full deal you're talking about the osteen meeting yeah now i'm talking about the full committees together formal meeting council city i can't recall and now that we're building that good relationship it's uh i mean commissioner santiago might know i think it's time i agree with the mayor on that i was a little surprised to see the jpa on here for discussion today prior to that meeting because i think we really need to have that meeting on the ninth before we can really start to formulate opinions i want to clarify that the meeting on the ninth is actually not i mean we it was noticed by our clerk so that we could participate but it's not actually our meeting correct it's volusia county is running the meeting um city staff will be at meeting as well and we're going to be coordinating with um volusia county staff um next week so there's no more like city commissioners are not on the agenda at any point to speak no we're just there it would be there to be educated as well so it's um okay there's a rumor i've gotten a lot of the emails that have said y'all have a meeting on the ninth it is not a city meeting no that's why we're inviting it's different yeah but we do get to ask questions yes just like the general public yes participate like yes and as i find out more information from volusia county staff i will certainly share with the commission and then at a time certain after that just schedule something with the county i think that that's great relationship building number one and um updating some of these some of these outdated overlays or joint ventures or whatever you want to call them uh would be great because uh you know we get to hear what the residents on both sides want to see so okay we're going to go ahead and move to projects utilizing cdbg ship funding so in terms of ship um city staff has met with the majority of the commission i think we have not met with um commissioner santiago or vice mayor um we're looking for feedback in terms of how the commission wants to move forward with the ship program and i have um angela here um to answer any questions that the commission may have um but pretty much um the options are the city can return ship funds to the state for reallocation if you do that the residents will have to go to foolish county or we can adopt recommendations by the affordable housing advisory committee and one recommendation is to do a community land trust i i since no one's on the board i'll just say i think we should go with the recommendation um and not return the funds um i also think we need to do a heck of a better job on communicating this with the residents it's not at anyone's fault please i'm not trying to we just you know we have a lot of new pio folks they're doing a great job we just got to up it a little bit better um as a matter of fact i think doing the meals on wheels uh angela we recommended somebody desperately needs the the information the funds and stuff like that if we need to figure out a way because after the conversation we had um some folks are just not applying you know and uh getting them this type of help versus them going out and getting a reverse mortgage and then then then losing everything um and those folks are not going to give them the opportunity they're not going to give their kids an opportunity to buy back so we we need to put that out there you know we're not leaning your property um just because we want to take it over it's just guaranteeing that you're going to stay in that house until a certain amount of time so may i add to that and um as a member of the city board a hat board and as the state representative for the city of a hack i just want to tell you that this organization this board is one of the best boards i have seen in the entire city of deltona they have so many members that the last time we were asked to approve we just said at this point we don't want we don't need any more at the moment right um and i just want to say that the reason why and please interrupt me if if you want to jump in the reason why we have all this money is not that the city is not putting it out there and that the city is not advertising because we've had open houses we've had one here we have one at the center is that a lot of the residents don't qualify and when they do qualify and they hear about the lien like you said it sort of scares them a little bit um and and sometimes it's not even the residents themselves but their children they don't understand that um the house will still go to them as long as they comply with the a half regulations right and i think um it's more of lack of educating the residents on what the city requires of them and the qualifications and the things they have to follow some residents or some let me say some applicants uh refuse to give information that is required we need to know where all your funds all your money is coming from um i think we even went as far as to make the application or request the application to be a little shorter the lien was a 15 year lien and it was reduced to 10 years to make it easier for the residents um a lot of the requirements for a hack doesn't come from the city it comes from the state and i know that angela has done a great job with the state group asking them to reduce a lot of things make it easier for the residents and um and that's what we're trying to do and right now i think we're coming up with um to schedule another sort of open house for the residents to try to keep the shift money because it's easy to give it to the county because they can still go to the county and apply but we want to make it easier for them to be here in this house to apply for it i could tell you that uh one of the conversations we had and this is something that i've been uh somewhat passionate about and i've been working on not as the mayor of deltona right but is getting with different state officials and maybe other partners on a higher level obviously and uh one of the discussions that we had with angelia and with jordan is a lot of the folks that don't qualify is because of multiple uh generational homes for example you have grandma mom and dad and then you have adult children living in the same house well technically they do qualify but because they're multi-generational homes their income is too high so it automatically takes them out so we're trying to figure out a way that we can uh incentivize our some of our elected officials on the higher levels to add a little button not and the consensus is not for one generation two two generations but possibly on a three generation uh family household where if there's three generations of families living there then you could click on that button and it helps to expand the qualifications for income to make it easier um the income limits come from the state yes so that would have to be from the state and it wouldn't only be for deltona it would be for the entire state of florida because once they find out advocate for it i can't do it as the mayor of the city it would have to be on a personal basis did anyone have any questions in reference to do we want to give them the consensus to move forward on not returning the money and go with the recommendation well and what we need to think about is we're talking about about five hundred thousand dollars uh because what's happening just to give you an example we get about 200 and some pre-screens between 200 and 500 pre-screens a year they um of that 200 or so they convert to about 48 applications a year and when you're talking about getting a million dollars in one year 700,000 in another year 900,000 in another year right now we have a house that will be coming in front of you it needs 160,000 160,000 dollars worth of work so our limit is and our limit is 60 60,000 so it will be coming in front of you she needs our help but in this situation we put a lien on it for 15 years what we probably will request of you all if you want to move forward with it is not to have it not be an unforgivable lien in addition it's been referred to legal because of some issues with the title so those are the things that we see but we work with them we probably do 10 percent of the pre-screens that we get and we put that pre-screen on there for a reason these people don't want to come in and bring three months worth of bank statements and a month worth of pay stubs and as soon as we see the bank statement and we see five hundred dollars a month coming into the account from all different places sometimes we just stop the application process so we put the pre-screens in place so we've asked the questions that would stop everyone it stops and then if they want to have the conversation they can have the conversation with us we still um run into um we are what's called an exception community along with several other communities which i think i shared with you can you just explain that i'm sorry angela can you accept explain what that means for our residents that are here an exception community um although it's shipping and state funding the numbers and the income limits come from the federal government which is hud they go out and they give us our numbers every year how we do um cdbg projects is we look at that areas of greatest need and they look at the percentage of people in an area that are 50 percent 51 percent or lower they consider uh low low income so we're not 51 percent for years we haven't been 51 percent as of this year we are at 43 percent and there are a couple of cities that correspond to that and excuse me but i think boca raton is one of those jordan put it in there for me i can tell you some of the cities that are on the exception list boca raton cape coral deltona jupiter marco island palm beach gardens palm coast pembroke pine sebastian city wellington those are some of the cities that are on the exception list we have been on the exception list off and off the past six years at least five times we got came off one year but we have been working with it it's just getting harder um and that's why if we are told that we have to keep this money we have two options two options only that we can spend these funds it will have to be affordable multi-family which we don't believe necessarily that deltona is suited to that the way that it is and we can't spend the money fast enough for a project to come online what we would prefer to do is scattered site community land trust that way i went back in preparation for this i came here in 2010 i purchased over 80 houses rehabbed them under nsp sold them they were all affordable but once the once they went past the mortgage the lien they became regular units we couldn't retain the property with the community land trust the underlying document is the affordability is attached to the land and for 50 or 100 years you all would decide you can make it less you can make it 25 to 50 years but for those years you could only resell those homes to low to moderate income persons and we think that if we did a scattered site approach within all six districts went out purchased homes and did it that way at least you would have that continued affordability to give you time and space over the next 5 10 15 years to determine what else you wanted to do at that point so we would like to keep the funds but we have to make a decision um we have until the end of june to make that decision i think it's a phenomenal plan that's that's right up what uh we were talking about earlier with the multi-generational being scattered throughout the city also i think that's a phenomenal plan and remember excuse i'm sorry but remember if it's multi-generational i'm just saying that it corresponds it's not it's not okay i understand that that is separate from what we're talking about okay do you want to ask this for the land trust yes can we get are there any other comments from commissioners if i if i may vice mayor so just just a just a flag there is the option to bond so to use your allocation and bond and and and and use future allocations or a portion of it we're trying to get the exact percentage in my recollection i believe it's 60 percent that you can bond for a large amount to do or contribute to a larger project for example some types of infrastructure might be eligible um p3 um involving housing i mean we we can give you some other ideas if that's something you want to pursue we hadn't talked to all about it and we don't know if you have an appetite for it but we just want to make clear that that is an option cdbg does permit a certain amount of the funds a percentage of the funds to be bonded for a larger project how long do you guys need to figure that out we have time on cdbg well the third thing right now is to is ship do we keep the money that's the money that's the question do we keep the money yeah that's right now is the important thing yeah yeah so correct so we we can get back in 30 days about about ship and and what our percentage that we could bond you know that we can allocate for a bond because then you could if you wanted to split it up and do half lots and then half reserve for a larger project we obviously have to bring a project that's eligible so if you give us 30 days we'll come back we'll work with staff and come back with a concept and give you just some of the parameters so you can see um my preference would be that we come back after hearing from staff what other options are i think if it's between the two options of give it back or spend money on scattered these scattered units it would be scattered units but if there is another option that we just need to research a little bit um my preference would be to research that and come back but she needs an answer let's give her direction to keep the money right now yes i i yes yes do we need to do we need to vote we'll we'll we'll go around your your meeting everybody said already yes yeah and just and just fyi um i just want to let everybody know that uh commissioner um colwell is my backup uh at the state level so um there was this is not this did not have to be brought to the commission this was something that you just pick a backup so if i'm not i got your back and did you want to mention to them why we have a commissioner sitting on that so um i know a lot of people and just fyi we have uh one of our board members in the audience we we want to thank so much very very never miss a meeting very a lot of input um but the reason why it's so important for first of all the elected official to be part of the city board was um required at the state level this wasn't this was not a decision at the city level so every city that has that received this funding has to have um that representative at the state level be part of the board in this at the city level this has nothing to do with the city's decision it's a requirement and the reason why we i need a backup is because i think it's three three strikes and you're out so if i miss three commission three of their state meetings then the city lose keeps losing points on the funding and it comes to a point where we might lose it altogether so it's very important that if i can't make it i will let angela know or sandy and then they'll let steve know to be ready to be part of that meeting and sometimes angela joins in as well but she has no input because it has to be an elected official and the reason why we believe they put that in place is because we are beginning to get more funds and they need to have someone on your body when we come to you and say we're going to have to give funds back they understand why and they can explain it to you so thank you all i wanted to ask if we could get consensus to put this on the may 5th meeting agenda so that we can make sure that we get you enough time to turn it in before the june cutoff would that be enough time for you to have the 30 days or do we need to do the second meeting in may no i i think that would be fine i will just want to flag one thing just in totality about today's workshop two ideas that this the ship funds could be bonded for would be a workforce project a residential housing component of a p3 either in a downtown or near the center and then the developer the private equity could come in and build the commercial use or they could build market rate housing as part of a cohesive project and the obviously this would take more time to do but the bond would allow us to create an attractive element to bring in a p3 partner um to bring in their private money so um with ship we can go up to 140 ami so that's workforce housing i mean that's that's quality housing so yeah to have a p3 partner would be because it's not only it's not only public it's also the private sector that's getting a lot yeah we we love a p3 but it's always important for the government to have a good carrot and if we can say you know this is the amount we are eligible to contribute for this workforce housing component or fund and we'll use our allocation as such it could make it very attractive for a development partner to come in and you know really bring that mixed use what would the projects that we want what would that amount look like right now i'm sorry what would that amount look like right now we would have to do the math well and this is the thing we have been putting money aside waiting for that remember we wanted to do something multifamily and then we came in with the clts that is what the ahack committee has been doing they have been doing that with the anticipation that someone would come in and we could do possibly multifamily but it's been kind of we've come to the realization that for us multifamily depending on where it is wouldn't work and that's one of the reasons why we still have some of the funds because staff has been working since 2021 we expected for there to be a multifamily um one but it just doesn't work for our community and we understand that and not some of the money that we're we're gonna try to spend it we're trying to spend it but yes yes okay since 2021 for a consensus can we before we get too far away from that can we take a consensus on having for jemma to was that date okay that date's fine yeah we can come back with some hard information yes dates are in may 5th uh the first meeting in may if that's may 5th you're good i'm good okay thank you as long as staff agrees that that's attainable yeah so that's for oh no we already voted on keeping the ship yeah we already all right we're moving to uh social services and again um so staff gathered some information on social yeah thank you social services and programs for homelessness um throughout deltona and um volusia county um there are nine food pantries within the city's boundaries there are two churches that provide assistance with utility bills the library offers free computer and internet service for individuals um and there's a variety of services addressing homelessness throughout the um county you have family renewed community salvation army volusia county human services and the neighborhood center of west volusia the first step shelter the first step shelter and then also the commission on homelessness and housing the city also uh under housing provides um emergency shelters um under the cdbg public service cap we're allowed to provide up to 15 percent of the annual allocation now we split that normally amongst four to six different non-profits uh when it comes to housing we have to depend on neighborhood center they're the only ones that have beds and then we depend on new hope they help with the utilities and food and that type of thing the others go to council on aging boys and girls club and early learning center and that's just under the 15 percent cap but what happens with that is that those funds aren't generally available until late december sometimes even early february so in that time what we see is especially around christmas and after christmas everyone needs assistance but our our funds aren't available so jordan will be talking with doc and with you all in other options but you have provided emergency funds for immediate housing or hotel yes uh that's the neighborhood center it used to be called deltona's first response to homelessness but again if they don't have the funds they can't do that program so in other words the funds are running out before december yes every year and a lot of times they don't even get the funds until january february because applications um setting up po's and all of that and approvals got it okay what direction are you guys looking for go ahead thank you mayor um so we have added some money into next year's budget that you'll see as part of the proposed um for this lag time um we're really kind of working out the numbers at this point in time but you actually see that in the budget within you with using general funds so it'll actually be in the planning budget and the housing budget not in the cdbg or the ship budget um and it'll just specify that that's what the funds are there for um because it's general fund they'll lapse meaning they just won't reoccur but we can put them in the budget every year with a statement and we can use prior your examples and and actuals and so forth to determine what that is but i think we agreed to 25 000 initially just so that the program would have money to help those in need during the time when the cdbg monies are not in place yet and we would not ask cdbg to supplement it but we put it out there in the budget we still have to finalize it we're not finished at this point in time but that was the last discussion are we uh referring our residents to other social services uh uh that are that are available in other parts like maybe the county some of our veterans referring them to maybe the library where they have veteran services can we make sure that we also are linking all that together because i understand we run and we'll go to commissioner howington after i know i understand we you know we run out of money for certain things but we have other partners so we can be promoting in a sense um the veterans one is a perfect example that they're they're kicking butter with it they're doing a lot of great stuff and it's right here in daltona i mean technically it's volucia county yes we have uh the liaison that's in the library every week along with the county liaison a lot of services we don't have but we do try to coordinate with the county liaison and yes they're we're over in the library every week it's it was two days i had two half days but due to like of persons coming in it's been curtailed to one half day and so has the county's rep also they're only there one day too now and then as we become familiar with these um organization services we do provide it on our website as well for people on our sites on the teltona website okay commissioner howington and then after that commissioner santiago being outside the box a little bit um to fill that gap could we potentially use community land trust properties to somehow partner with a non-profit to create a transitional um facility where if somebody needs a place to stay for a short period of time that we could utilize one of those properties for that i'm kind of taking both and lumping them together i know it might take some thought process maybe food for thought over the next few weeks i don't know we could check into that i could get with jordan and jessica and we could check into that would that then make us like the manager of a shelter no that's where we would partner with a non-profit okay yeah and land trust keeps us out of being landlords right as prior commissioners turned this down because they want to be landlords right land trust doesn't you know keeps us out of the whole thing and also we also partner with um what's the name of the organization that does the houses um habitat oh habitat for humanity yes well habitat for humanity yeah i was thinking maybe trinity church would be a good one to partner with the dream center because they have the dream center in orange city but maybe they could operate right when the land trust they could operate those here in deltona we can look we can look into that and get back with you all jordan and jessica mr mayor if i may um one of our other clients is actually in the process of doing this out in bell glade they um they found and i don't remember the name of the community that's doing it but they bought some infill lots and they're building tiny homes uh the city's not doing it but they're partnering with a non-profit to build these tiny homes so i think it's still in a relative infancy pilot process but we are working on this in another place um so it's certainly i mean we obviously don't want to run shelters that's not our business but um there is a and i can find the name of the place who's done it because our mayor there toured it and came back with a lot of ideas it might have been another example it's it's funny you mentioned that because we actually met with a company that does that and um to at some point it was the idea was to bring it to see how the commission felt about it um but then we started getting a new city manager so that so um when um steven when you start joining these meetings you you're going to find that deltona is the lonely child because every other city that is part of that meeting has available land for affordable housing and deltona is the only one that doesn't have that you know land that is owned by the city to build affordable housing so you will hear all these projects that are going up just like um um jemma mentioned and i'm sitting there and saying okay what did we talk about in our last meeting i can talk about that so that's the only difference with the city that we don't have the land commissioner santiago then vice mayor harriet and then we can just to verify uh jordan you did mention that the some of the services and organizations are on the website they will be that is correct yes they are okay okay just making sure yes the only other thing are you done commissioner santiago yes yes so vice mayor harriet then i want to just add a little thing to it so i think the concepts are great but commissioner howington brought up i think is is awesome my my only reservation with that and also the um i also really like the tiny home concept i think that's that's phenomenal and it also could the tiny home concept not in a different variation could also lend itself well to downsizing but the one thing that i want to make sure that we're not getting into the business of is being a landlord or a management company i don't want to put politics into this process any more than it already is because we're talking about people's basic needs here i agree may i answer that ma'am yeah sure so this is the reason why in our city board we have always mentioned the importance of bringing someone to give the commissioners someone who is a land lease actually currently a land lease person running something on the land lease to give the commissioners a demo of what definition of land lease is because that takes the city out of all of it they run everything if they're it's under their control they run everything you know what i'm saying so the city is it has no responsibilities over it yeah so i mean and i don't know if we've ever decided to do that and if i'm not mistaken maybe jimma can can confirm for me we don't own it right the clt owns it we hand it off perfect so even better okay um one last thing i would like to add are you done i'm done thank you mayor is there any way we can use for social services do we not already pay for four one one four one one services four one one four one ones or three one one whatever it's called two one one two one one darn number straight can we not try to use the two one one for for some of these services we could let the residents know that they can call that call that number if that is what you would like us to put on the website and when they call it i think it would be helpful we're already paying for the service let's try to utilize it okay maybe do some custom forms so instead of people calling city hall you know there's a form that they can fill out um not trying to steal ideas from residents right because but i hear that a lot is hey can we develop some type of form and maybe it helps up it helps the city staff get some relief on that as well instead of us going through it then we get the form we can go through it and then refer them to the right the right people or department this is a thought an idea would you prefer for that to be online it's for also okay i mean whatever the commission as a whole would absolutely all of our resources available to our residents should be located in one single location all right is there anything else before we move on to the next section just one one last thing if i may i know um in the past the city of deltona has done a social services summit where we have invited all the organizations to come and have a table and um is that something that you we're planning on doing soon or can we get it done consensus we do that around the holidays right if um if we're instructed to do it in jordan so it's okay with it we can do it um this is something that can be done over say the next six months absolutely not immediately it's just something that i know i did when i was in when i worked in the city with the fire department we had like a social services summit and all the vendors came in provided information to our community and let them know that hey this is this is available um very simple nothing to commissioner santiago's point if we're going to do it obviously city manager just can we make sure we're consistent and and do it if we're going to do it do it every year because one of the things that i hate seeing us do is we start something we stop doing it and then we wonder why people don't show up and i'll just it's not a plug but the mayor's fitness challenge is a great example the first year man the second year better this this last time man it was 40 50 people every time showing up it's just the consistency and continuity of doing things if if we do it sometime this year and not a lot of people show up it's because they're not used to it anymore but if we do it consistently every year you know and it's budgeted for and it doesn't affect really anyone i think i think it would be great great i'd like to even take that step further i'd like to look at the calendar the annual calendar and see where all of our events are and then find a spot where it can be focused on and and let's let's start to spread things out so that we don't have clusters of events let's start to spread it out so it can stand on its own so there somewhere in the city there has to be and i think we spoke about this there has to be some kind of directory of all the organizations in volusia county that helps the community this directory came from the hurricane maria and i was not a commissioner but i did participate with it with chief schneider um and i forget who else it was and um this room was standing room only and what we found was that there was so much duplication in organizations i know they did a directory i have no idea what if it's still around um that's where we assigned community life center as the first stop we had to decide when all these people came to deltona after the hurricane where should they go community life center was the first stop they were not a business we we switched it over to um um new hope services and um so yes that and that was just a one-time thing that we did just to find out what all the organizations were out there and it was amazing was it was a good turnout but we also found that it was two three organizations doing the same thing so there is a directory somewhere else i don't know where commissioner there is a directory that angelia and her group have been um continuously updating and we have a link to that i believe on our website yes and we'll continue to update it and then um hopefully if we do do the social services event we can keep adding to it it's a fluid document so we're updating it um yeah when we find um an organization is no longer operating or a new organization so and we'll share that with the commission as well if i may we could just put on the website and update it as it comes and just say this is current as of this date and that way we don't have to no one has to come in not that we don't love them here bingo okay so um you guys have direction on that it's a clear for everyone uh next we're going to go to development projects thank you okay who's doing the development projects jordan jordan so i guess this was just a holding spot for just any future we got finger pointing it was just made available so if you have questions on another project that you had an opportunity to ask that here if you wanted to direct us something you guys promise not to beat me up when i ask about this project they might but we won't late short drive can we get i mentioned you're talking about the 4b project i mentioned earlier yeah meeting tuesday with both the contractor and uh the engineer the ones that we're either suing or we're going to be working with okay that's what the meeting's about could we put something out there that we're in process of meeting with them just it doesn't have to be detailed just something that we're meeting so the residents who keep calling all of us i'm sure it's not just me are aware you know and it helps out and yes thank you so much i mean obviously with the permission of the rest of the commission that's okay i would like to have something available to give to residents i also want to ask a question is there something going on on norman i'm sorry did i jump in on her okay so on normandy and saxon across the street from walgreens do you know is there anything going on i know they just cleared it i mean not cleared it they just cleaned it up a little bit than what it was i'm just wondering if something has been decided you don't know anything about that one right now john john we were uh we looked into that about for the city to purchase it but he was not interested in selling it correctly i don't know if jessica if you know if they're doing anything with it didn't didn't he buy up all of the houses around that property as well because i know that there's a developer that owns the majority of the houses he bought those houses the developer but he he's not interested in selling it was supposed to be a gas station remember commissioner it's going to be a proposed murphy's gas station oh god that'd be a great place for a commercial overlay to require future land use well that that lot's going to need a lot of flood mitigation because i know way back when on farley court there was an issue with a artesian well and there was a scenario where some houses were built and then some houses had to be bought back and i believe that water's still pretty heavy water centric so we're going to have to look at the flooding situation because that's a pit right now and once that gets elevated what's going to happen there if farley court has had problems for years they're at the bottom of that hill so we're going to have to look into that that was not my question though it'll be another fort smith and uh let's not go there um let me get it open here uh is anybody working on the florida department of emergency management mitigation grant that's due on april 15th is anybody looking into that at all it's for hurricane loss mitigation so funding availability yeah we're working on that in finance as well as i know phyllis has helped us on another piece of that but i can tell you finance is working on it so we can get you an update as soon as we have a little bit more information we will our data folks were working on it this past friday so i don't have an update right now okay i just want to make sure we don't miss the deadline to get anything something so thank you so much any other questions on future projects hopefully no more dollars i shouldn't have are there any other future projects that we're not aware of not that you're not aware of um and they're all on the map i was about to say that we have a interactive development activity map which is on our website which um we keep current updated with all projects there's a project um or on the end of deltona boulevard i suppose i think it's identified for apartments and stuff like that is that have not yet come to um drc or no okay oh no i have another question i'm sorry the property across the street from justin plaza it has a sign on it that says future plaza coming what is that deltona boulevard and cigar is that cigar hustler it's a little further from where the old mr vasquez uh dr vasquez was not my relative but right across the street from justin plaza commissioner we have no application and they just come in for a pre-application meeting um and most likely it'll just be um small couple retail stores okay because everybody's asking me about a smoke shop smoke shop is that what you were about no no no no no no no i'm sorry i didn't interrupt you i just keep seeing this i swear it it used to be a dollar store they used to have and i know everybody feels a certain way and now i'm starting to see smoke shops pop up every other corner oh i have one already on mine you only have one i have a smoke shop i have a medicinal marijuana i have okay i was gonna say if you only had one we can start sending them your way um i i have one one other request uh kind of related to development projects not specifically to any particular projects um but throughout the process with a lot of the vineland reserve stuff the stuff that's going on with the jpa um rain tree and all all the um the new hope project there's a lot of residents that don't understand because it is a confusing process if you're not living it but they don't understand that development process the and how it works including the current zoning and future land use and rezoning and then going to drc and the pre-app and then the application being approved and all of that um could we put together like an explanation video and i'm not talking like necessarily a no i so if you really need a cameo then sure but i think that some sort of explanation commissioner um in your packet under already did it development 101 we have a flow chart which we will be putting on the website and it shows um citizens what the process is when they um submit an application so perfect it will be on the website and then can we also use that flow chart and maybe reference that flow chart when we talk about developments that are i think that we should start posting using our social media to share with residents what certain things are what things are coming and what you know we can use the flow chart to point to what where they are in the process and whatnot so sure awesome thank you can i piggyback onto that yeah um so specifically thinking back to alola estates when we have agenda items that come up where they had a rezone historically because i know that one was what 2004 2002 something yeah can we add that date so that we can actually identify when they receive their entitlements yeah yeah and that would help that was another one thank you for being that was another one that a lot of residents were very confused on of why why are we swapping projects and given you know allowing all these apartments and it's like time out that was already done we don't have a say on that right so when you say when you say add the date can you just clarify please so when the entitlements were given yeah when the entitlements were given if there was a rezone if this was just always part of the land use code something to designate when that landowner received the right to build a thousand homes where are you wanting that information because staff staff includes that information in the staff report that we give um to the commission in the agenda packet if we can have it in the summary so that it's easy to read so that when residents are sitting here and we're having a meeting they can see the entitlements were issued on such and such date and maybe it was you know pre-incorporation i don't i don't know we you know whatever terminology just something so that we can say hey we are not giving them the entitlements today they got these entitlements back 20 years ago so to to add to that legal um can we put an expiration date on entitlements by florida statue we're allowed to do that you know where i'm going i don't think so yeah it's a complicated but the short answer is no i mean the short answer is is no that's a yes except with bugs it's a more complex answer so we want to say bugs all over the city we we can on the explanation page call out like in a clear box this project is allowed as a matter of right under the land development code period which was passed when we were incorporated or this project was rezoned in 2012 like we can call it out in a big box because i understand what you're saying a lot of people are frustrated because they feel like you all are giving these entitlements when many often they are ready when they buy the land they get the entitlement because the land comes with it um so we can as part of public information i think everything that i voted on over the last year with the exception of maybe one maybe two projects they have already had those rights vested from decades ago so what about before final plats come before us can we make sure that i'm probably gonna get a never mind forget it it's fine so back to your question so um in terms of planning and developments um going forward if you guys approve the chapter on april 7th da's will have a two year um after two years it will expire trip counts that's where my question essentially is going is how long can we allow these trip counts to go without being updated can we not require the trip counts to be updated and let's be fair to both developers in the city right but maybe five years i mean 20 years is a long damn time for us to allow trip counts to stay there actually the one you're thinking of is i think uh evergreen it's good for ever i mean come on mayor good point and we are actually working with felicia county at um at the moment in terms of those as well as infrastructure yes okay yes all right i have no other questions um all right i believe um going to public comments public comments you have kathy bryan and terry ellis all right guys hold on she has her two minutes hey ready kathy deltona um just on what you were talking about going forward and maybe that's when you were talking about the trips is that like the traffic studies etc because yeah going back 20 years traffic was a whole different story okay number two um you may not want to include residents in vision 2050 because i know that we already had resident uh inclusion however there has been other instances where we've had resident inclusion and the commission did something really different charter commission the charter is one of the prominent ones that i think of in my head where the commission didn't take really any of the recommendations and went off their own way when you talk about the noise ordinance can we please include fireworks in that and i know it's very difficult and i haven't i don't begrudge anybody their fourth of july july or new year's day celebrations but people are doing them two weeks before two weeks after after midnight well into the middle of the night every night of the week i'm sorry no um yes i'll step back when you guys start sitting forward because you guys are talking like this yeah i i get it i understand i'm just getting you back so um the when you guys do the lakefront is there a way to put in place for for like a beach for putting in kayaks and canoes i've asked this before and i want to make sure that's part of the plans no funds um the other and the tree funds etc um no crate myrtles and let's think about maybe some fruit trees as well um tnr um one of the things i think was missing out of that whole conversation was education to the public um you really need to feral cats thank you carrie ellis you need to you need to thanks in other words i know people that will feed these cats put cans of cat food out because they feel sorry for them you can't feed the entire colony i'm not against the tnr i'm not against cats but if you want to do there's reasons to not bring them to your house and feed them and and people don't realize that and you're not going to change some people's minds but they i think there needs to be a lot of education because all you're doing is really a lot of times attracting other vermin and i'd rather the feral cats eat that vermin thank you so um that's okay first i want to say thank you to maritza because having her as part of the ahac committee has kept a has kept um deltona at the forefront and what a great job our ahac committee is doing and folks at the state level know that so it's very very important to have her um secondly i want to say that it is so hard at one point i was ready to cry seriously trust me i'm not a crier but to sit here in the audience and not be able to make any comments on a particular item when you've been working on something for years and years and years is really really painful i understand today was very special okay hopefully we won't do too many of these all-day sessions but when you have something like this conversation about homelessness was totally useless because we don't really have a homeless problem what we really have is a social service support getting resources to people problem i sent an email everybody knows that i've been working on this for years and to not have any input was i was really ready to cry um you have to figure out a way to have your residents that are proactively involved and being productive figure out how to bring them into the conversation i was here and i left and came back because somebody asked me to be here in case they called me as a subject matter expert because of something and then here i am at the end of the day i've sat here from nine to i went home for 30 minutes to eat so you want people to be engaged but quite honestly it was a total waste of my time today and truthfully like i say i was near in tears um to hear some of the you know the organizations that jordan named there's no deltono presence that information is on a high level and that's what should be happening but we should be talking about what's actually happening not simply what's on somebody's corporate profile so please figure out a way to get your residents that are in the fight with you being positive being cooperative figure out a way to better bring them to these conversations um that's all i have to say and i hope that if we have a social service meeting that um you'll get some resident input thank you thank you all right city manager comments just want to thank the commission mayor everyone getting together for this saturday uh any idea of next one obviously that's a lot of items we had but the morning was a little longer than we thought uh is it uh better to do off monday night uh tuesday after a commission meeting monday tuesday do another saturday where we're going to start off with the public hearings i have a i don't mind saturday but i'm tough speaking for myself what i mind is let's not add special commission meetings yes that's what i mean that's correct that was not conducive to anything so right make sure the schedule is correct the special meeting was added after the fact and so then that bumped the workshop to 9 15 so it was originally advertised as being 9 a.m to marissa's point though i um i think it was marissa that said not april 5th that's the garden was for the exact reason you're going to say it's the garden it's the garden closed plants excuse me since we have a couple of all right guys hold on there's too many people speaking so if here's what i'm gonna do commissioner santiago since we have a few projects that have a 30-day um limit can we do it give staff 30 days and then come come back after that because is that going to be part of the workshop or they're just going to bring it to the commission it's what's left here that we still got whatever is not there okay just if saturdays are good or evenings only i would request okay commissioner howlington i would prefer the off week mondays yeah i think that would require vice mayor harriet i'm going to call you individually i think doing it on a the off week mondays would require at least two if not three mondays to accomplish the rest of this um if we can get them on the calendar i'm not against it but either i'm i'm fine with that or another saturday as long as it's just for the stuff that we missed today it would take a few mondays i believe yeah fire stations alone could take a while at least two or three well it might be too much i mean this was a lot let's finish with the rest and commissioners also keep my we have budget meetings coming up also in the next month or so i i would be okay with a saturday to finish everything on here to make way for the budget meetings um instead of doing continuous mondays and not finishing up that's just me so commissioner avila vasquez so we have commission meetings workshop commission meeting workshops and it worked fine i don't know where it changed i don't know where it stopped but it's kind of hard to take away our weekends when we spend with family um so i prefer if we have can put it on the schedule like uh commissioner um your neighbor says um and we and you know what i'm saying so i mean if it has to be on a saturday i don't have a problem if my schedule is available because on saturdays is is it goes by my schedule so but if it's on a monday i i have no problem coming i was supposed to be at disney today so i can see i'm gonna echo what my neighbor said either mondays or saturdays monday evenings and obviously you'll have to reach out to commissioner i just i do want to flag one thing so one challenge yeah yeah that's why you keep me around right um having a meeting every week is on staff particularly because everyone's now been tasked with a ton of projects to do in the next 30 days we got to write all these ordinances we got all this ship stuff so i'm just going to tell you right now it's gonna i mean it's gonna you're gonna churn everybody so i'll just put that out there i would i would like to i would like to suggest that while we have a lot of important things on the rest of our agenda to that point i don't want to burn out staff and we do have a lot of things that we have already asked of them today so if we could look at a weekend a saturday towards the end of april early may that might be best not specifically to wait until we get responses but to allow time for staff to focus on what they've already been tasked with to be fair a lot of the projects that are here the the stuff left over like impact fees and stuff like that which i think are important we have overlays and stuff over them right now so i think we're protected at least for for a little bit so again if i don't have a problem working on saturdays but you know what please don't make it this long i mean it's ridiculous that was the special i'm not even getting paid for these hours so i actually don't even go there but anyway i wasn't going there um i just want to make another comment because i know that i noticed there is no commission comments here so before we close today is march 29 and it's vietnam day and i just want to give a thank you and shout out to all the guys and women who serve in vietnam who are still here who are not here and for those who are still here i just want to give them a real huge welcome home welcome home thank you commissioner howerton you're on uh we're not doing commissioner comments today so i'm telling you because i just saw you get back on so go ahead i'm not doing commissioner comments as a workshop workshop that since i was elected and i think going five months without a workshop is part of what has led us to the point where we've had an all-day meeting so i think we probably need to not go more than two maybe i would say probably two months at the most without having a workshop because we need that time to come back and regroup and talk about things to be fair i mean we city management 10 months so everybody's getting acclimated you have a fair point but well we have a lot of new staff that's probably the reason why many things are discussed at commission meetings themselves also so it's we haven't it's not hard issues necessarily but certainly we went over some great things today appreciate that but a lot of this stuff has been requested during commission meetings and we've never had a workshop so it all like you said all piled up at one and this is like it's 4 30 and we're still here well we're trying to end it we're going to keep bouncing back and forth this is the last looking at the looking at what's left on the agenda i i see uh items d and e that um do have pertain a lot to the budget but also fg and h that we have been asking for for uh for some time and i think are also equally as important if we could coordinate with um splitting those if we need to split them up put fg and h together and first ideally um because i think we can do those sooner and that that would take up less staff time than uh d and e it's our policies okay yeah so did you want to flag something else if we can just get a date for the next workshop because i i mean i was i know commissioner of vila vasquez was not going to be here and the next stuff that she pointed out is a lot of it has to do with flooding um and then to vice mayor's point the charter uh guy the the guidelines for the commission the charter office for evaluation process that's all important stuff so i mean i i have no issue knocking it out on a saturday but i will tell you i am not going to upset my little girls anymore so let's make sure we have ample time notice let's get this done and um you know if we start getting more of these workshops and you know at least so we don't keep piling them on i'd be happy so good i have no idea i don't know i don't know i don't know